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3:33 AM
0
Q: In Beatrice and Virgil, why does Henry say he sees everything in the Holocaust?

HamletYann Martel got a lot of criticism for his book Beatrice and Virgil. One reviewer described it as "is every bit as misconceived and offensive as his earlier book was fetching". Much of this criticism stems from his discussions about the Holocaust, and his use of allegory to discuss the Holocaust....

 
 
1 hour later…
4:59 AM
0
Q: Understanding Yann Martel's description of a tree

HamletIn an article titled "Why Yann Martel’s Beatrice and Virgil is the Worst Book of the Decade", a reviewer complains about the following passage in Beatrice and Virgil (located on pages 18-19): He was near a tree, the soil around it soft and bare, and the impact of his foot-stamping was thunder...

 
5:26 AM
1
Q: Does this edit change the meaning of the question?

Matrim CauthonReferring to this question Rather than continuing the rollback war that has occurred in the question. I instead decided to ask on the opinion of meta, I believe that edits made to the question change the meaning enough to make the answer given seem out of place, though @TheBitByte disagrees with...

 
I checked out The Neverending Story. I hope I get the time to read it.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:49 AM
@Randal'Thor woah, congrats!
 
 
4 hours later…
10:42 AM
@Mithrandir Nothing personal in my call here, very sorry if what I wrote sounded like that. I just believe we're over-moderating this SE, and should really be careful to let the problem(s) rise to a level where a sizable majority can witness them rather than apply quick-fixes that may prevent us from realizing there is an other, (better?) way to fix those. Again, most sorry if this sounded personal (it wasn't) or aggressive (it sure was, my excuses for that!)
 
11:38 AM
0
Q: Should tags on a question include the presumed answer?

VicAcheThis question raised an issue that was already raised on several other child SE (see Judaism): Should tagging make the question easy to find, or the answers easy to find? I think the answer by Joshua tends to prove that we should not presume what good answers to a question are, hence not ta...

 
@Gallifreyan READ IT. It's an amazing book and a beautiful story.
In fact, read it several times. You'll probably need to, in order to appreciate all its many layers.
 
@Randal'Thor Will do, as soon as I can
 
1
Q: Should tags on a question include the presumed answer?

VicAcheThis question raised an issue that was already raised on several other child SE (see Judaism): Should tagging make the question easy to find, or the answers easy to find? I think the answer by Joshua tends to prove that we should not presume what good answers to a question are, hence not ta...

 
Damn, I should read it again.
And ask questions about it here.
 
12:06 PM
Where did we decide not to edit the tag for an answer into story id questions?
 
10
A: Should we retag story ID questions with the story name?

Rand al'ThorNo. For the same reason as we shouldn't edit the answer into any question once it's solved. For story-ID questions, the story title is part of the answer, not the question. Editing it into the question, even in the form of a tag, would make people do a quick double-take and think "why did they n...

 
@Randal'Thor thanks.
 
@Mithrandir Going to link to that when answering VicAche's question?
Because I already did :-)
 
I'm on mobile, can't answer fast enough -_-
 
I said "100%" in a meta answer ... channelling @DVK :-P
 
12:14 PM
Damn those Russian SO people and their unwillingness to participate in English-speaking forums
To think of the number of questions about Hard to be a God we're missing
 
:-(
To be fair, that is why they're on Russian SO rather than the main SO.
 
(SE isn't a forum)
 
@Mithrandir Shush :-P
Yes it is, in the broader sense of the word "forum".
 
@Mithrandir This holds not only for SE
 
96
Q: Are Stack Exchange sites forums?

amanaP lanaC A nalP A naM AI was under the impression that Stack Exchange sites were forums, or forum-like objects. If they are not forums: Why aren't they? What defines a forum?

 
12:20 PM
@Randal'Thor To be fair, it's a poor excuse. They go through the trouble of setting up a different stack while they could've just set up a different chat room
 
@Gallifreyan SE isn't about chat.
Setting up a different site enables them to post Q&A in their native language.
 
@Randal'Thor So setting up another stack is easier than learning a language as simple (pardon me) as English?
Sounds like an excuse to stay in own comfort zone
 
@Gallifreyan We've had this conversation before. As a non-native speaker yourself, I'm surprised that you'd be so dismissive towards people who don't happen to speak one particular language among the thousands in the world.
 
To be honest, I feel like The Neverending Story is one of those books which is good, but gets overhyped because for so many people it's the first book of its kind that they read. Your first is always special, but that doesn't make the book actually better.
 
Why shouldn't Russians be able to get answers to their programming questions as easily as Brits or Americans, without having to learn a foreign language first?
 
12:23 PM
(See also: The Giver, Ender's Game)
 
@BESW Read neither of the three
 
Your first dystopia, your first self-referential, your first gut-punching twist, and so forth.
@Gallifreyan Both are well-considered above and beyond their own merits, I think because for a great many people they were the first book of a certain kind and that left a lasting impression regardless of actual quality.
That's not to say we shouldn't be thankful for the books which first introduce us to new ways of thinking or reading, just that it often leads us to overhype the book itself as well.
 
@Randal'Thor I could understand "why bother when there's [now] a Russian Stack?"; it's the prejudice that I don't understand. "Too bad your Stack is in English" - bad for some, maybe, but beneficial due to larger pool of knowledge.
 
@BESW The Neverending Story will always be special to me because I found it so early on.
I have read at least one other similar book - Cornelia Funke's Inkheart series.
Good books, but nowhere near the same depth as The Neverending Story.
 
Same prejudice is even present in schools, since TV series are now dubbed, films are dubbed, games are dubbed and even have RU servers, books are translated.
 
12:29 PM
Even though I only appreciated much of that depth relatively recently, probably since my last reread.
 
It's kinda like watching Doctor Who: no matter which Doctor you wind up thinking is best, your first Doctor will always have a special place in your heart.
 
And then enter alienation, people unable to communicate even basic needs.
 
@BESW I did start DW with Tennant, but only a few random episodes I happened to catch. Then some random Smith episodes, all the Smith Christmas specials, a whole season of Capaldi, all of Eccleston, and only then back to Tennant. But he already had me hooked at "Ohhh, blood control! I haven't seen blood control in years!"
 
@Randal'Thor Technically my first Doctor is the Shalka Doctor, but Nine was practically concurrent.
[scribbles notes in the TARDIS about incorporating the Shalka Master into prime continuity]
 
12:54 PM
Is Biblical Hermeneutics still in beta? If not, they might be another site where we could put up an ad for Lit.
Yep, still beta. Oh well.
 
2
Q: What is the name of this book about soccer and oranges?

USER_8675309I read a book in the mid to late nineties that I don't have any clue how to search for. Here are the things that I remember from this book: The main character was younger than 18 and he had a vision problem. The kid played soccer, and was a goalie. The book had a few different parts where i...

0
Q: How much does "The Parable of the Old Man and the Young" differ from the original Bible story?

Rand al'ThorThe poem "The Parable of the Old Man and the Young", usually attributed to Wilfred Owen although much of it was written by Siegfried Sassoon, is a slight retelling of the Biblical story of Abraham and Isaac (see Genesis 22) in such a way as to turn it into an allegory of the First World War. Not...

 
@Bookworm oh look. Another migration :D
 
@Mithrandir bows
Looks strange.
Heh, all of the migrations to Lit so far have been from SFF and by me.
 
@Randal'Thor I'm fairly sure the votes from SFF got carried here
 
@Gallifreyan Yep, carried here and attributed to the Community user. It's a rare occasion when you can upvote the same question twice and both votes count on the eventual score.
 
1:04 PM
@Randal'Thor Hehe
I thought votes were reset after migration? Or was it only the down votes?
 
@Gallifreyan right, only down.
But this means that now I can't vote on it :/
 
241
Q: Reset votes on migrated questions

GillesAll votes should be reset when a question is migrated. That's votes on the question, in both directions, as well as votes on any answer. At the moment, downvotes are cleared from the question. Yes, it makes sense on its own, but I don't think this is the right solution. In my experience, commun...

@Mithrandir And we got another new user out of it, yay!
 
 
1 hour later…
2:35 PM
@Gallifreyan O_O
I love the English language and I'm personally not a fan of language-specific SO versions and the fracturing of knowledge they result in, but that statement is a little presumptuous.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:44 PM
Has anyone here read the Apprentice Adept series? I came across it while researching for an ID question, and it sounds pretty interesting.
(And who ever said ID questions weren't helpful?!)
 
@Randal'Thor me
 
@Hamlet Well, you're mistaken :-)
 
@Randal'Thor I think Shog's answer does a better job explaining things
I don't like the fact that they get a lot of attention while other questions are ignored. They're like junk food or I guess like "radishes"
At best, they have value to pass the time. But no one sticks around just to answer story-id
 
3:59 PM
@Hamlet I've no idea why that answer got so many upvotes (other than, you know, because he's Shog). It says hardly anything about the actual value or otherwise of ID questions, instead spending more time on extended food metaphors.
@Hamlet Wrong.
Ask Gilles. Ask user14111. Ask SeanDuggan/FuzzyBoots. Ask Walt.
@Hamlet I don't like the fact that some of them get downvoted even when they're perfectly fine with a lot of details.
 
4:21 PM
@Randal'Thor mornin
@Randal'Thor neither do i
 
@DForck42 Afternoon :-)
 
@DForck42 Evening
@NapoleonWilson How so?
 
@Gallifreyan I think it might be that it's a little presumptuous that someone on the internet trying to find an answer has time and resources to learn another language shrugs
 
@Randal'Thor While I'm not necessarily a fan of Shog's penchant for metaphors, that answer channels many of the general sentiments that the ID-detractors (or at least I) have about those questions and their impact on site activity and value. So I understand why you don't find it a good answer, but I can totally understand why the people who don't like those questions upvoted that answer. Since he hits the nail pretty much on the head with it.
I really doubt the Shog-factor skews the voting there too much, since it is a good answer disregarding who wrote it.
 
I'd rather see an answer based on facts and hard evidence than one which appeals to the "general sentiments" of people on one particular side of the debate.
Admittedly his graph is a solid fact, but I still struggle to see its relevance.
 
4:32 PM
@Randal'Thor that's probably the biggest issue with this... issue. there's just no evidence out there to support either side, either than intuition
 
@DForck42 Maybe you should reread my answer then :-)
 
At the end of the day, it does come down to their ratio compared to all the other questions, the growth of that ratio, and its effect on the community. Shog channels that pretty well. I would never have become as much of an opponent of those questions if they wouldn't become more and more the majority of questions asked and thus skew the brand of what the site is about.
 
True, and I probably wouldn't support them here or on SFF if they started to dominate all other questions.
3
 
@Randal'Thor Well, sorry. I have made the exact same experiences uttered there and thus have personal proof of what he says. I know that personal experience doesn't necessarily mean anything to the next best guy. But if many users of the community share it, it at least means something.
@Randal'Thor BOOM!
 
@NapoleonWilson Out of curiosity, what proportion of new questions which stay open on M&TV are ID ones?
 
4:37 PM
@Randal'Thor yeah, that's one of the issues we struggle with on movies as that ratio ticks up ever slowly
 
@Randal'Thor Can I bookmark this somehow?
 
@NapoleonWilson save the permalink?
 
@DForck42 Yeah, I just did.
 
@NapoleonWilson ??
 
@Randal'Thor Well, fortunately the closing ratio has improved drastically lately, due to people finally reacting to the problem and the moderators making less prisoners.
Before that, the ration approached 50% of non-closed questions.
 
4:39 PM
If you're going to pull out that quote in the future to show that I'm not a completely rabid ID fan, then great. I've never pretended to be one, and never been as strongly pro-ID as, say, Gilles or Valorum or user14111.
 
@Randal'Thor I made a thingie a while back i.stack.imgur.com/zV4zY.png
 
@DForck42 Did you ever add this here somehow?
 
data's probably not 100% accurate cause I ran it off the data SO gives us, but I think it is a good general indicator
@NapoleonWilson nope
 
@DForck42 Ah, thanks. So about 45% overall and 27% among left-open questions?
 
Disregarding closure, the ratio is way beyond 50% already.
 
4:41 PM
remember, I lost all of my queries... :(
 
Assuming I'm reading those figures right.
 
@Randal'Thor yes, looks like my percent might be off
 
@Randal'Thor Sorry, but being helpful is just one of the aspects and not necessarily the most important anyway. This is SE, we're first and foremost an archive of interesting questions with engaging answers and then there to help people solve their stuff. If both things go hand in hand, there's no real problem, but unfortunately in the case of ID they're severely diverging.
 
@NapoleonWilson Being helpful not just to the OP, but to future site readers too.
 
4:45 PM
@NapoleonWilson once in a while we get a GOOD id question that's actually worth digging for
 
What do you mean by "interesting questions with engaging answers", if not being helpful for posterity?
Not to mention the fact that ID questions can give you new things to add to your reading list that you wouldn't have heard of otherwise.
 
@DForck42 Sure. If all those questions would only be those, then the ratio and growth problem was solved, too. And those might even be the ones with the askers giving a damn about the site, so the "attract new users" fallacy might even be true then. ;-)
 
yesterday, by Ash
@Bookworm I am super curious what this book is.
1 hour ago, by Rand al'Thor
Has anyone here read the Apprentice Adept series? I came across it while researching for an ID question, and it sounds pretty interesting.
 
@Randal'Thor Actually, I probably meant to say engaging questions with interesting answers. Sorry, I mixed that up, I think.
 
12
Q: Old animation movie with girl who has magic necklace or pendant that she could never take off,

Meredith von LasherWhat I know about this movie: It has to have been released at most during 1982 but it's probably older. I know this for a fact because I am sure that I was six years old when I watched it and I know this because my whole first grade class was taken to the cinema. Also, we weren't taken to a regu...

 
4:47 PM
@Randal'Thor Absolutely! I only ever meant those comments as "I think this is good policy"
 
that question was fun trying to find the answer
 
> However, I happen to think DoubleAA's answer is good policy
 
@NapoleonWilson Same difference.
 
@DForck42 And I'm saying it's presumptuous of them to go to an English-speaking Area 51, set up an Russian-speaking site in an English-speaking network, and think it's more logical than learning a language. Not even learning to speak, since reading SO doesn't require fluency, and we've been able to fix any misspelled questions and answers.
 
Also, how is this comment constructive?
Generally one inserts food into one's mouth, chews, and then swallows. — CHEESE Jan 26 at 23:26
 
4:49 PM
@Randal'Thor Being worth more than just solving people's practical problems, but actually furthering the knowledge present on the internet and making it a better place.
 
@Gallifreyan shrugs i'm a 30 year old white male American, I have no concept of what this is like
 
@Randal'Thor You'll have to admit, though, that if that comment is not constructive, that your response is at least the same:
@CHEESE Particularly cheese. — Rand al'Thor Jan 27 at 0:01
 
@Randal'Thor Not?
@Shokhet Buahahaha!
 
@Shokhet Yup, and I'll delete that if the first one gets deleted.
Or, soddit, I'll delete it anyway.
 
@Randal'Thor I flagged me both ;-)
 
4:51 PM
...I don't think either needs to be deleted, though. It's slightly humorous, and I think it's okay to be a little loose with the comment regulations
 
@NapoleonWilson That's what I thought, but I've had two flags declined on it.
 
Me too. Though, the latter one only as "too chatty".
 
@DForck42 I deleted mine. One more flag on CHEESE's and it should disappear without bothering the mods.
 
@Randal'Thor Hmm, well, whatever. I'm used to declined comment flags. ;-)
 
@NapoleonWilson I think you have an unusually low standard for what "not constructive" means ;-)
 
4:54 PM
@Randal'Thor Um, I don't really flag as just "not constructive" anyway. There's also "too chatty" and "obsolete", which are rather low-hanging fruit.
@Randal'Thor Says the guy who just flagged a sarcastic joke as such. ;-)
 
@Shokhet I don't mind humorous comments when a question pops up at first, but they should still be cleaned up later on imho. they add visual noise and get in the way of people trying to find an answer
 
I have an unanswered question which I'm considering putting a bounty on, but I'm worried it's the kind of question that may attract subpar answers (answers which are correct but low-effort, just copying info from Wikipedia, rather than the deeper analysis I'm hoping for). Should I bounty it in the hope of attracting those good answers, or is that only likely to lead to people posting less-good ones in the hope of easy rep? (@Hamlet)
@NapoleonWilson I said you're more ready to flag as NC, not that I never do.
 
@Randal'Thor linky?
 
@Randal'Thor Yeah, and the cases where I do are non-constructive comments, so...
 
@DForck42 This one.
There are a couple of others I'm thinking of bountying but have a different reason for being reluctant: I think the only answers that exist will be pretty simple and not particularly bounty-worthy.
 
5:06 PM
@Randal'Thor that's a good question, def bounty it
you might get some low-hanging fruit answers, but you might get an actual good answer
 
I'm surprised this one hasn't been answered yet. It even has the name of the main character - that's more information than most ID questions have.
 
5:20 PM
@Randal'Thor Thanks for clearing that up about the closing sites.
 
5:39 PM
@Randal'Thor IDK I've given you advice, it's up to you to decide what to do.
 
@Randal'Thor Make sure the question is clearly requesting the analysis. Edit it such that merely giving a correct answer, and copying and pasting stuff from wikipedia, isn't an acceptable answer to the question as written (as opposed to the question as intended).
 
@doppelgreener @Randal'Thor One good way to do that would be to say "I know that WP says "this"; I'm looking for a deeper analysis."
IMHO
 
@Shokhet yeah, that could definitely help.
 
5:55 PM
Thanks for the advice. I'll try to edit the question, and maybe put something in the bounty notice too.
 
6:32 PM
Regarding ID questions (@rand @napo et al)... This came up just yesterday in a call, and I was reminded yet again how easily these discussions go south because folks have such a very different experience on SFF
I think the % of ID questions on SFF vs other sites is really striking, and almost certainly explains why SFF-regulars tend to consider them a fun little passtime and fail to understand why they're irritating just about everywhere else. So, I put together a query...
First line is the % of ID questions asked each month, second is just the ID questions that are not deleted (still as a percentage of all questions asked that month)
Not only have ID questions always been a minority... Nearly all of them are considered acceptable.
 
@Shog9 SFF isn't the only example. RPG also allows ID questions and seems to have no serious problems with them (cc @BESW)
 
@Shog9 it's returning all 0's for me
 
@DForck42 Yep, me too.
 
(forgot tags are stored differently in the public data)
@Randal'Thor RPG gets almost no ID questions: data.stackexchange.com/rpg/query/655052#graph
 
@Shog9 Which proves the point that ID questions can be allowed without either overrunning the site or needing to be heavily policed.
Proves it better than SFF, in fact, where ID is by far the top tag.
 
6:38 PM
@Randal'Thor proves they can be allowed if they don't overrun the site
 
@Shog9 modified for movies, our tags are slightly different: data.stackexchange.com/movies/query/655057#graph
 
@DForck42 yup. Immediate jump to over 20% by the end of the first year, and just kept on climbing.
 
@DForck42 Oh sweet Morpheus, poor you :'(
 
For a while, half of the questions on the site were ID questions.
Also note the vast difference between "questions asked" and "questions retained"
 
Yep, that's pretty striking.
 
6:41 PM
@Randal'Thor it's part of why we've had to be stricter on them, to keep them from consuming the site
 
@DForck42 Oh, I know. I've spent quite a while in the M&TV Close Votes queue.
But here on Lit, ID makes up 4% of questions asked so far.
 
I mean, one could be forgiven, upon coming to MTV in '15, for thinking ID questions were the primary purpose of the site.
That's where a hell of a lot of the current frustration and bitterness arose
 
@Shog9 yup
 
And like I said to DForck earlier, Lit is much more comparable to SFF than to M&TV in terms of ID questions.
 
honestly, movie's is STILL healing from that. I wasn't even active when it happened and I still see it
 
6:44 PM
Book ID questions tend to be waaaaay better than film ID questions, on average.
SFF's best ID questions are all about written stuff, and the worst tend to be about films or TV.
 
@Randal'Thor maybe
 
Which explains why M&TV is swamped with shite (if you'll pardon the word) when it comes to ID.
 
@Shog9 is there any way for you to get this data set for the old lit site/ especially for both id and recommendation?
 
@Randal'Thor The worst I've seen so far were about games
 
I suspect... (though of course I cannot prove...) that a lot more people passively watch and half-remember movies while drunk / stoned / kids than pick up books and read a few pages here and there then immediately forget most of what they read.
 
6:46 PM
M&TV gets the equivalent of SFF's bad ID questions, whereas Lit is more likely to get the equivalent of the good stuff.
 
@DForck42 data dump should be available
 
@Shog9 Agreed.
 
(so, YOU can...)
 
@Shog9 true
 
I also mentioned some theories and anecdotes about why book ID tends to be better than film ID, in my Lit meta post on the issue.
But regardless of the why, it's a fact that there is a difference there.
Hence:
3 mins ago, by Rand al'Thor
And like I said to DForck earlier, Lit is much more comparable to SFF than to M&TV in terms of ID questions.
 
6:48 PM
For completeness, this is what the graph for Anime & Manga (which completely banned ID-requests last year) looks like:
 
Sheesh.
 
@Shog9 interesting
 
And they really tried hard to make those work.
 
@Shog9 @DForck42 @NapoleonWilson and whomever it may concern - watch and learn :D
 
They had custom tag pop-ups, meta posts with tools and tips and so on, notices...
 
6:50 PM
@Gallifreyan lol
 
For anyone interested in seeing the plan to get rid of 'em:
22
Q: What we'd like to do about those gosh darn "identification requests" questions

кяαzєя This discussion is now closed. Here's phase 1 of what we've decided to do about identification-requests (deprecating). Here's phase 2 (blacklisting). Here's phase 3 (delete and lock). The topic of id-request is a very subjective one. I believe that it's difficult to provide an object...

 
@Gallifreyan You don't need to tell those guys about the idea of banning ID questions. They already know.
 
@JNat @DForck42 @NapoleonWilson - read and learn :D
 
@Gallifreyan They're aware ;)
 
(And they might swear at you for mentioning it.)
 
6:55 PM
@Randal'Thor Sure, but here's an example of how this could be done swiftly
 
@Shog9 That is significantly worse than M&TV's stats, to be fair.
 
@Randal'Thor so true, that's been a bubbling topic for a while
 
@Randal'Thor worse?
they never actually cleared 50%...
 
@Shog9 I.e. it looks like A&M's ID questions were even lower quality than M&TV's.
 
@Randal'Thor well, they went and deleted nearly all of them during the cleanup
 
7:07 PM
@Shog9 Yeah, but their retention rate looks much lower.
 
59
Q: 2016: a year in closing

Shog9A moderator asked me for data on the percentage of questions closed across all sites. This doesn't strike me as information that needs to be restricted to moderators, so for your idle enjoyment I present: Questions asked, closed and reopened for all sites in 2016 Site Name ...

remember that? 3K questions closed last year.
 
Oh, that graph doesn't actually show how many were being closed/deleted at the time?
 
@Randal'Thor yeah, when you delete nearly all questions in a tag it tends to look that way ;-P
@Randal'Thor right
@Randal'Thor here's what it looks like if we consider "not deleted in 30 days" to be retained: data.stackexchange.com/anime/query/655061#graph
 
@Shog9 my thing about identification questions is that I see this site's purpose as a place where people come to learn more about and discuss literature.
 
@Shog9 Ah. Well, that's less shocking.
 
7:11 PM
And I don't really see story-id questions as doing that: when you answer a story-id question, you identify the book, but you and the readers don't learn anything other than [story x with plot y] exists.
Which is why I think your food metaphor was good (although I enjoy eating radishes, so I might have used the word junk food instead).
 
@Randal'Thor contrast with movies - note the real drop in retention came in as they crossed 30%
 
@Hamlet And, in the process, learn something new about literature. (Not to mention helping people with an actual practical problem.)
 
@Hamlet I've used a puzzle analogy in the past; some folks buy newspapers for the crossword, but most newspapers don't exist to host the crossword.
 
Not every question here has to be some deep academic-level analysis question.
 
@Randal'Thor I agree with that
 
7:14 PM
Mar 29 at 22:48, by Rand al'Thor
@Hamlet More importantly, I wish you wouldn't be such a spoilsport. If you don't feel a question is interesting to you personally, downvote it; but leaving comments on such questions to imply that they're worthless because "what do they tell you about the book" willl discourage people from asking questions and ultimately could kill the site. It's a literature site, not a literary analysis site, and this is a question about literature which at least five people find interesting/useful. What's your problem? — Rand al'Thor 3 mins ago
 
(but I kinda wonder if newspapers are too much of an anachronism these days)
 
@Randal'Thor not many of the questions on this site fall under that category anyway, I would be dumb if I came here expecting otherwise.
 
Metaphors aside... I stand by what I wrote back when the site was still in private beta: this isn't something y'all should worry about unless they become exceedingly common - if that happens, you need to treat them as a serious problem.
2
 
But story-id questions fail the basic test of a good question: is it helpful to future readers? can you learn something from it?
 
@Hamlet that's one of those tests that's a lot harder to apply than it seems like it should be
It's why we ended up dropping "Too Localized" as a close reason
 
7:18 PM
@Hamlet I've personally seen some comments like "OMG I've been looking for this book for ages thankyou somuch cheers hugs"
 
You'd get folks saying, "Drawing an ASCII christmas tree? That's not gonna help anyone, ever". Turns out, it's a common assignment and LOTS of folks have questions about it.
 
@Hamlet And there's probably more, but we don't see it since non-users and users with <50 rep can't post thank you comments
@Shog9 VTC, homework question :D
 
@Gallifreyan :shrug: that's tomorrow's userbase you're throwing under the bus; if it's a reasonable question, let it be
...which hits on the real problem here: these still have to be good questions.
Something I've seen a LOT of on MTV are ID questions where there's no way to know if any answer is correct!
2
 
@Shog9 Oh come on, I had even put a smiley there :) We even allow homework questions here, though within reasonable standards
 
@Gallifreyan I took it seriously 'cause I wanted to build on it... ;-)
Bad ID question: there aren't enough details to narrow it down. The asker doesn't remember enough to confirm or reject any answer. The description and title are broad enough that, yeah, someone is probably gonna find it on Google, but it's a crapshoot as to whether the answer will be what they're looking for.
That's not just a problem for the site - that's actively making the Internet worse, noisier, harder to search.
 
7:22 PM
@Hamlet As shown in my answer on meta and what I said earlier in chat, yes.
 
@Randal'Thor @Hamlet my first 3 [surviving] questions are story-ID, and I'm still here
I think it's about the asker, not the question. Reflects the level of self-discipline of an Internet user.
 
@Randal'Thor at the end of the day, this is just my opinion. I can't force through any policy.
 
@Gallifreyan this is also something worth monitoring. To go back to Anime, my original guidance for them was to try & use ID questions as a hook to get folks interested in the site. Eventually, it became clear (JNat ran numbers on it) that the vast, vast majority of askers never returned or did anything else contructive on the site - so nearly half of the site's effort was going toward folks who gave nothing back.
That doesn't have to be how it plays out, and hopefully it won't here. But again... Keep an eye on it.
What's the point of having all these sites if you can't learn the pitfalls & watch for them on new ones?
 
@Gallifreyan Learn what? Please don't think we've not been over this a thousand times already.
@Gallifreyan Ditto.
34 mins ago, by JNat
@Gallifreyan They're aware ;)
 
@NapoleonWilson I know you're aware, I've glanced at your meta. I'm just saying it's entirely justified to deploy radical solutions in this case.
 
7:30 PM
@Randal'Thor Not necessarily. The incident where I did swear when you mentioned it recently had quite a different reason, and you're pretty much aware of that.
 
The critical (admirable!) factor in Anime's case is that they didn't take radical action until they'd methodically tried everything else. They gave 'em a fair shot, put a ton of work into moderation, and when it didn't help... Then they shut it down.
 
@NapoleonWilson I don't recall the exact context. But as mentioned earlier, I'm not quite as strongly pro-ID as you seem to think :-)
Last time the question of outright banning ID came up on M&TV, I was against it. Now ... well, I'd probably still be against it, but I'd be more ambivalent at least.
 
MTV has had two complementary problems:
1. They pushed for banning a little bit too quickly, and...
2. ...they had a bunch of folks from a site where ID questions *aren't a problem and have never been a problem* jumping in with "helpful" advice at the worst possible moment.
I am optimistic that they can mitigate both issues.
 
@Gallifreyan Oh, we also know that. We know that we approached this problem way less proactively than we should have and could have.
@Randal'Thor That might be true, it wasn't about that either, though. But assuming good intentions it seems you really didn't know what was so problematic about that earlier comment and I'm rather letting it rest now.
@Shog9 That's encouraging to hear. I try to be optimistic too.
 
@Shog9 And over here we're having a slight case of the opposite: a bunch of folks from a site where ID questions are a major problem advising that they be banned here without giving full consideration to the differences between the sites.
Not that all the anti-ID people here are from M&TV, but a fair few of them are.
 
7:43 PM
@Randal'Thor I haven't been around much recently to say anything... but I think my (our) measured approach on A&C was a good place to start... I'm pretty vocal about disliking ID on M&TV but I also know that, in some cases (on some sites), they're totally fine.
 
@Catija What approach did you end up taking on A&C? I remember there was a meta post where you and I both posted answers, but I don't recall what the conclusion was.
 
@Randal'Thor People seemed to like my answer - granted, we haven't had it tested too much. We're not very high-traffic.
But we're talking about physical things... it's easy to require something like a photo.
7
Q: What guidelines should we set for "identification"-style questions?

CatijaI know that ID questions are very contentious on different sites - some sites love them and others hate them. I believe that they can be successful here if we set some strict ground rules to make the questions less of a "guessing game" and more of an actual, answerable question. So, to help the...

 
@Randal'Thor :-D
 
 
2 hours later…
10:10 PM
@Randal'Thor Are the rest of them from Arqade or Anime?
@Shog9 And there are a lot of interesting ways to go about them, such as perlmonks.com/?node_id=734447
 
@b_jonas No, Hamlet is one of them.
 
user15026
FWIW, I don't hate ID questions. They didn't work on Arqade for a variety of reasons, but I can see the value in trying them here.
 
@Randal'Thor This, yes. At least, the good questions will be in a higher ratio than on Sci Fi. Three quarters of the ID questions on Sci Fi are bad.
@Hamlet I've seen many comments on Sci Fi about what people benefited from ID questions. The last time was when I managed to recommend Hal Clement's book to someone and he read it and enjoyed it: scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/96700/…
@Shog9 By that measure, my post history.stackexchange.com/q/35918/24029 is a bad question too, because I don't remember enough to be able to confirm any answer. But I did learn from the answers anyway.
 
@Randal'Thor this is why it's critical to remind folks to look into the why of their opinions. Opinions are useless; the "why" is useful.
2
@b_jonas I don't remember anything about WinINET, but I've still written useful answers about it. Memory is something to be used and discarded; it is enough that I once knew, when I needed to know.
 
@b_jonas That really depends on who you ask...
 
10:24 PM
You can't leave your memories at the door even if you wanted to, @Stijn. Instead, try to remember why we do things the way we do them elsewhere... And if you don't know, find out before you blindly repeat the rituals here. Tool recommendations are often useful questions, but they still need to focus on an actual problem and the answers need to solve that problem. The issue we were unable to overcome on SO was a long history of folks asking for the "best" library, with aging answers and circling wakes of spammers trying to feed off of the rotting corpses; that doesn't have to happen. — Shog9 ♦ Feb 28 at 23:27
different boogieman, still useful strategy
 
user15026
I mean yeah, if someone goes "I remember this book, it was blue", thats a terrible ID question.
 
I personally think we should allow ID questions on Lit and Sci Fi, but we have to continuously keep a lookout at their quality, and if we start to see that they're hurting the site, then we should consider what measures we can take, and eventually possibly even ban them if that's the best solution.
 
user15026
I figure Lit's a young site, no use throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We're trying a bunch of things here already like allowing song lyrics as literature, I figure ID questions fall under the same sort of "let's try it and see". For all we know, we're going to get awesome detailed stuff out of it.
 
@Shog9 Absolutely. The advice about explaining why and how in the GSBS blog post and the associated help centre page can apply equally well to meta discussions as main-site posts.
 
user15026
We've not really even been around long enough for the site to find it's legs.
 
10:27 PM
@Shog9 Interesting. Hey, do you happen to know a library for multi-dimensional numeric root finding and optimization that's under a non-copyleft free software license?
 
user15026
(It helps that a lot of story-id here is really unlikely to be "what's the best book for this", and more "I remember a story with the following details")
 
By the way, @Shog9 I don't know that it's fixing everything but I think that nudge to the ID question box you made is helping... the 2 day close ratio is only 25% down from the 90 day percentage of 38%... it will be interesting to see when we get to a full week.
 
@b_jonas A good balanced approach :-)
 
@Catija yeah... Let's keep watching.
I was kinda shocked just how strong that heuristic was for past questions
 
10:29 PM
@Shog9 I should look at whether scicomp SE takes them first
 
probably, yeah
there's gotta be a Python library
 
@Ash It's much harder to bite my tongue about grocers' apostrophes when we're on a literature site :-P
@Ash Definitely. Recommendation questions are subjective; ID questions aren't. (I was preparing long essays on both in the days leading up to the launch of this site, and comparing the two was quite an interesting exercise.)
 
By the way, someone needs to complement me on how I've managed to be in here all afternoon and not launched into a long rambling story of my childhood under the pretext of building a metaphor for the situation at hand.
Really impressive self-control. I should get a medal.
 
user15026
@Shog9 gives you a cookie
 
THANK YOU
 
user15026
10:32 PM
You're welcome
 
user15026
@Randal'Thor Also, there's nothing saying if we accept them carte blanche now we can't change that
 
user15026
Like we changed it on Arqade, we accept them if they're like "I saw this game in an ad, what game is it" (basically, we need some sort of audio/visual thing to jump from
 
@Randal'Thor Yeah, but mostly because people write bad recommendation questions, when they don't give enough details about what they want. Like, "I need a data structure to store data about my passengers and their flights. What structure should I use?" It gets much better when people really tell what they need.
 
user15026
@b_jonas As with most things, the more data points you can provide, the better
 
Same with ID questions; they're not subjective if you actually have enough detail to identify the thing you're asking about
 
user15026
10:35 PM
The problem is teaching people to give us all the details they know
 
user15026
@Shog9 and the italics, I think, is where people get stuck because yes, a lot of ID questions tend to be lacking in detail
 
@Ash With software-related recommendation questions, it gets more difficult. You also need to think about what you really want, which might include figuring out what modifications your stupid customer will ask next week that they forgot to tell you about. You don't get that with story-id usually.
@Shog9 Yeah.
 
@Ash On the flip side, a lot of ID questions which seem to be lacking in detail are actually perfectly answerable.
We get some really short ones on SFF with very few details which are nevertheless enough for some genius like user14111 to uniquely identify the book.
 
What I find is that it can be difficult... I've answered two ID questions on M&TV recently... one of which was an easy google image search (later closed) and the other was actually really obvious from the description... and probably was due to the OP not even trying to search for it... Often, if you have enough detail, you can find them yourself, so you don't ask a question about it... or, as with the famous example on SFF, you have some of the details wrong.
 
in Mos Eisley, May 17 '16 at 18:55, by Rand al'Thor
Feb 17 at 0:06, by rand al'thor
Dec 14 '15 at 16:20, by rand al'thor
New user: "I read this sci-fi book when I was a kid. It was, like, something to do with aliens, and there was a man, and maybe he had a dog? HALP"
user14111: "This is Obscure Short Story no. 213 by Isaac Asimov. Here are a bunch of quotes to show it's exactly what you're looking for."
(exaggeration, but not always by that much)
 
10:40 PM
Getting stuff wrong is where things get tough... people answering the question have to be able to look beyond the "memories" and guess where something might be confused... as in the SFF example, 333 vs 555.
 
@Randal'Thor this is the sort of thing I refer to on Stack Overflow as "Danieling an answer" - to answer it you have to somehow fill in the missing detail in the question itself first and then compose an answer.
Similar in concept to Raymond Chen's "Psychic Debugging"
It's always impressive... And can be fun, if you're right. But it has a nasty tendency to leave a really vague question that pulls in future readers who have completely different problems
 
@Shog9 What missing detail? The point is that some of these questions which look like they don't have enough detail actually do.
This might be a genre thing though, rather than a general thing about written stories.
Sci-fi and fantasy are full of so many weird ideas that it's easy to come up with new and unique ones.
 
@Randal'Thor Meh, the one in your example fits lots of books, though.
 
@Randal'Thor Sounds like Nemesis... no wait, which one had the blind man and the robotic dog?
 
10:47 PM
@Catija My stupidly exaggerated example, or the actual real one I linked to?
 
@Randal'Thor The quoted chat message.
 
@Catija Well, yeah. That wasn't a real example, just an exaggeration of user14111's talents. This one is a real example.
 
@Shog9 What does "Danieling" come from? We call it "crystal ball debugging", and sadly I had to do it at work at least once when my co-workers wouldn't reply to the simple question "please send me a copy of the exact configuration file you are using".
 
@b_jonas I assume it's a reference to SG-1's Daniel Jackson.
 
@Randal'Thor rofl. that one does have the raw details though so it doesn't match much, it's just phrased in such an obscure way that you can't tell what it's trying to say.
 
Nice.
 
Also, lots of people identify Asimov stories, because some people have read all of Asimov's sci fi, and even more have read the part of his sci fi that people keep asking for. But user14111 doesn't just ID the popular authors.
 
... I'm not doing a very good job of showing off SFF's high quality of ID questions, am I? :-P
 
540 kg is a lot, right? For a potato, that is?
 
10:54 PM
I have seen many impressive answers, yes. By user14111 and others too.
 
depends; what's the exchange rate?
 
user15026
@Catija For one potato?
 
@Catija Yes.
 
1190lbs - so yeah, a half-ton potato is a big potato
 
user15026
10:55 PM
is now trying to imagine such a potato
 
s/kg/g perhaps?
 
I think it'd be like James and the Giant Peach... but a potato.
 
user15026
@Randal'Thor It's a troll answer so I'd not give it much thought honestly
 
@Ash Hmm. Well let me see. I know what a 10 kilogram sack of potatoes is like. You'd need 54 of those. I think such a potato could just barely fit in the back of a car.
 
Physics How big is a 540 kg potato?
Or would that be better suited to math... or gardening?
 
10:58 PM
You could ask Worldbuilding how to justify a 540kg potato.
 
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