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Alypius

 The Upper Room

General discussion for Christianity.SE, pseudo-meta support, a...
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Alypius
Apr 21, 2013 03:26
@Caleb "I did bring up the comments and composed my remarks in light of them. The thread starts out with El questioning the bit you now removed from your answer," -- Except that wasn't my answer. It was zefciu's answer. My answer was never edited, and had nothing to do with Wisdom. — Alypius 2 days ago
Alypius
Apr 21, 2013 03:26
@Caleb If you get the chance, a response to this comment would be appreciated:
Alypius
Apr 18, 2013 21:08
@waxeagle Right. I've left some 0-score which were useful, some others had become duplicates, and a few were on closed questions or questions I thought weren't constructive.
Alypius
Apr 18, 2013 21:02
@waxeagle I'm reviewing older posts and comments, some of them aren't worth keeping around.
Alypius
Apr 18, 2013 16:21
None of the deleted comments were directed at the wording of my answer, as I recall. All of the deleted comments were directed at the wording of a different answer.
Alypius
Apr 18, 2013 16:20
I'd like to know what is going on with this comment.
Alypius
Apr 18, 2013 16:19
The original question did not cause any confusion in August 2012 and none of the first six answers raised any issues. The first time an issue came up it was in regard to your answer and the deleted comments were directed at the wording of your answer not that of the original question. If something needs clarifying, I think it would be better to clarify inside the context of your answer. If you think the questioner or the readers are or might be confused on an issue, clarify it in an answer. In the mean time the other answerers have already engaged the question on its original terms. — Caleb 4 hours ago
Alypius
Apr 17, 2013 05:13
@El'endiaStarman Well, the random stating of heresies is off-topic. But answering from a certain clear denomination or view that is considered heretical is fine, no argument there.
Alypius
Apr 17, 2013 05:05
I still don't know. Regular users seem to have opinions on all sorts of things. I say "there is a reason that certain Christological heresies came about" and the next comment (according to me) is basically a number of Christological heresies...
Alypius
Apr 17, 2013 05:02
I think the edit is fine though. Would it be appropriate to delete Kyle's comment, if I were to flag it?
Alypius
Apr 17, 2013 05:01
Well... I don't know about that. People love personal exegesis that conforms to their own views.
Alypius
Apr 17, 2013 04:59
Oh, I was confused. I could have seen that just by clicking "edited ... minutes ago". Do you mean scriptural exegesis?
Alypius
Apr 17, 2013 04:55
@El'endiaStarman what was the wording tweak?
Alypius
Apr 17, 2013 04:48
@El'endiaStarman Also, it's on a controversial matter (not within Christianity, but "Christian view vs. view of the world"). That always helps.
Alypius
Apr 17, 2013 04:46
Is Wisdom one of those books that Protestants reject?
Alypius
Apr 17, 2013 04:35
@fredsbend You mean the addition of the word "hypothetical"?
Alypius
Apr 17, 2013 04:24
@El'endiaStarman Mason's seems good, I'd have to do some work to prevent it being a duplicate in major parts.
Alypius
Apr 17, 2013 04:21
The reason I bring up PA is because I edited out "someone" and it was edited back in (which seems to be hinting that this "someone" is the author). Agreed about it being not constructive for other reasons, though.
Alypius
Apr 17, 2013 04:11
christianity.stackexchange.com/q/15679/3941 Pastoral advice? I'm suspecting that the "quotes" might be giving it away. Or should I answer?
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 21:49
@PeterTurner I worry that we're heading in a similar direction here. I'm not sure what to make of it. I think on the other site the questions get divided by programming language... I wonder whether it might be a good idea to do that here, with denominations. But then the only denomination that is really sufficiently unified in doctrine seems to be Catholicism...
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 21:45
@PeterTurner I see. I have nothing against programmers, but I am in favor of how Christians tend to behave towards each other.
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 21:42
@PeterTurner I'm not familiar, though. What are the mods there like?
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 21:42
@PeterTurner We are very fortunate. I can imagine how mods on christianity.SE might be better than mods who are programmers. But it's still not very nice to have one mod effectively accuse me of frequent heresy (wrong, according to the priest), and to have another mod claim I never admit error (and then fail to admit error).
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 21:34
@PeterTurner Why do you ask?
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 21:26
@El'endiaStarman Also, a short while ago I pointed out a large number of non-trivial occasions where I had admitted error in response to you saying "you never admit you are wrong". Perhaps you should say "I guess I was wrong to accuse you of never admitting error". It would simply be courteous, after having made the accusation.
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 21:00
@El'endiaStarman Here is me telling you (a mod who was here before I came on the scene) how to "do your job": please have a look at whether or not my response might have been warranted, rather than dismissing it only on the basis of (strictly on the basis of, since you "almost couldn't care less" about the specific problem) the fact that I am suggesting something to a moderator.
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 20:36
@El'endiaStarman So, you might imagine that when I hear Caleb saying "comes across in conflict with both historic orthodox teaching and even the specific formulations of your own denomination", I think that maybe he should tread more carefully. Do you disagree, or something? Do you think mods here are beyond reproach?
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 20:35
He made very clear that it was something to do with only the humanity of Christ.
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 20:32
@AffableGeek @El'endiaStarman: Since you're still getting stars for this, and since it is still being brought up, I should deprive you of the opportunity to be tickled pink: for the record, the verdict was that in relation to the crying-out, the death, or the descent into hell of Jesus, He was in no sense and never separated from the Father. In fact the priest looked at me a bit funny when I mentioned "spiritual death" and "spiritual separation".
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 20:32
@El'endiaStarman Someone who has noticed that perhaps saying "Every time this comes up you personally do this and that and what comes out of your keyboard is in conflict with etc., and you are conflating etc." is a terrible way to give feedback. As a moderator, he would be more effective if he did not do that.
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 20:18
@El'endiaStarman I agree entirely, that was a terrible thing to say. I worry about the person who said it too, though. Objectively, it's a very uncharitable thing to say.
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 20:05
@JonEricson I think it's best to translate that as "Pray for me too". People who say such things often don't realize that we are all in trouble. (By the way, I really hope that everyone involved is alright.)
 

 Separation

The "separation" of the Son from the Father, and related quest...
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 21:11
> thus the distinctions in the Holy Trinity are energies or modes, not Persons: God the Father appears on earth as Son; hence it seemed to their opponents that Monarchians made the Father suffer and die.
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 21:10
@AffableGeek I didn't ask him about Patripassianism. Perhaps I should have brought it up, so that I could give you a "response from the priest" on that, but I think this page for example: newadvent.org/cathen/10448a.htm gives some account. If you go down a bit on that page to "Modalists", you'll see that the main point there is a confounding of the Persons.
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 19:53
That way, when they say "but look you can pull one part off" you can say "yeah, but what does that part look like?" (but you have to repeat that God is neither a fractal nor a clover. Though He is what once was bread. But the "Fraction" there works a bit similarly, in that He is present in whole in each "part" of the Eucharist...)
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 19:50
@PeterTurner Well, if you're going to go with the clover, show your kids the Sierpinski Triangle instead. I think I did a pretty good job of explaining the parallel (until Jon proposed that I was calling God a fractal and I ended up deleting the whole question in case of misunderstanding...)
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 19:43
@PeterTurner Yes, that video is exactly appropriate in the context of the Athanasian Creed :)
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 19:43
> But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. [...]
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 19:43
> Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost.
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 19:42
For a partial definition, see the Athanasian Creed, which says:
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 19:41
@AffableGeek God is simple, which is to say He is not composed of parts nor is He "composed" of persons. You and I are distinct persons. Furthermore, we are separate from each other, and we will always be separate from God: St Peter, who is in heaven, is not now a 4th person in the Trinity. God is and was and always will be three Persons, in the Unity of the Blessed Trinity.
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 19:28
@AffableGeek We will never understand the Trinity, but we know that it is inseparable, and that its Persons are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit... and many other things.
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 19:24
@AffableGeek Do you mean the goddesses that were taken out of the Koran? (Ah, I see. But we are not.)
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 19:24
@svidgen Jesus walked around, and He grew and became strong in spirit. But God the Holy Trinity is unchanging. This may be similar to how we say that the Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, and the Holy Spirit is Almighty... but there is only One Almighty God, not three almighty gods (as in LDS).
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 19:20
@AffableGeek Perhaps the pope isn't a human head in the sense you are worried about. The only authority he has "above others" is the authority to be incapable of making false statements to the Church on matters of faith and morals. This comes from the Holy Spirit. Incidentally, he is also the head of state, and the Bishop of a very ancient diocese, and so on.
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 19:16
@AffableGeek The Trinity does not have variable states. That would imply change. I define 7 senses of separation in my question, the first 2 of which always apply (they only state that the Persons are distinct--not separate). They do not apply only to the death in particular, but apply always (for example, the Father did not die, the Father was not born of the Virgin Mary, the Father was not conceived by the Holy Spirit, etc.)
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 17:19
@AffableGeek to get one point clear, in your answer are you suggesting (that those who hold the view are suggesting) an actual division within the Trinity?
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 17:15
@PeterTurner Not behind his back, if you look up and to the right.
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 17:07
(For example, I once (quite rightly) got sharply corrected for using the word "human" too closely with the word "Person" when it came to the Divine Person of Christ.)
Alypius
Apr 16, 2013 17:07
@PeterTurner I suspect that the idea of separation comes in some way from denominations like Oneness Pentecostalism (from looking at the above link; and I think they reject the Trinity). I have not heard of Catholics claiming separation at the death of Jesus, unless they are very careful about it. Usually we try to keep words that might imply heresy clear of things.