অনু

Speaking of today, it is very unlikely that the sort of bigotry you are referring to is mainstream even amongst Vaishnavas (barring ISKCON, whose founder had sweet words for Muslims & Christians but none for non-Vaishnava Hindus, as seen in Vanipedia), due to external pressures (read proselytization from other religions & advent of atheism). And your viwe that the religion has been quote-unquote 'Vaishnavised' is untrue, as proved by my previous arguments.

But present day Pancharatrikas don't worship these deities at all, following in the footsteps of Ramanuja. And in this impermanent world, everything is temporary, including the rise & fall of sects, so you shouldn't be much concerned about it.

Similarly Ramanandi dominated North India also fervently observes Shivaratri & Navaratri. And pre-Islamic medieval Vaishnavism is somewhat different from its modern version. I have a copy of a rare Hayasirshapancharatra manuscript currently located in Paris, which describes consecration icons of archaic Vaishnava forms like Vaikutha Chaturmurti, Vishwarupa & 14-armed Ananta alongside Bhairava, Durga, Matrikas, Harihara, Ganesha, navagrahas & shivalingas. Pancharatra texts like Sanatkumarasamhita & Padmasamhita also discuss the worship of Durga, Shiva, Ganesha, Kartikeya & Surya.

Belonging to a sect doesn't means automatically being sectarian. In my native place of Bengal, although most of the middle & lower castes profess Gaudiya Vaishnavism as professed by the local Goswamis, but they aren't averse to worship of Adyashakti (unless being extremely bigoted), whereas ISKCON treats the worship of other avatars of Vishnu as heresy & other deities as blasphemy.

Throughout these turbulent times, Puranas have undergone significant modifications at the hands of zealots. I once found a passage in Garuda Purana praising Madhva. And at the same time, there are passages in the Saura Purana describing Shivadveshi Madhva sannyasis & allegations of them indulging in sex with low-caste women as signs of Kaliyuga. Hence the study of history is necessary while studying religious history.

Eben as far as in South, the Chola were devout supporters of Shaiva siddhanta. Rajendra Chola is said to have imported Shaiva siddhantavadi brahmins from Bengal after his Gangasagar campaign. The advent of Islam completely changed the inter-denominational demographics if Hinduism. Without royal support, Shaiva siddhanta died out in North India & was supplanted by Vaishnavism (at the behest of Ramananda). In South Srivaishnavism arose on the support of the Hoysalas & Madhvas through the Tuluva dynasty of Vijayanagara.

The Kalacuri dynasty of Budelkhand was renowned for its patronisation of Shaiva siddhanta following Golagi math . And the worship of Aghora accompanied by 64 yoginis was also popular, as demonstrated by existence of such temples & being mentioned I the Matsyendrasamhita (purpotedly composed by Matsyendranath). Regarding Shaktism, worship of Chamunda & Matrikas as protectresses of the realm was widely disseminated. A Sanskrit drama, Tilakamanjari also speaks about the worship of Aparajitā. Krtyakalpataru also mentions vows of Devi named Nandā, Mahanandā, Nandini & Anandā observed year-round.

Your conclusions are rather questionable. Before the advent of Islam in Northern India, Shaiva siddhanta was the sect that received royal patronage in 10th & 11th centuries. The Hindu Shahis of Punjab were of Shaiva predisposition. Lakshmidhara, a courtier of the Gahadavala king Govindachandra of Kannauj, cites a Shaiva agama called Kalottara while compiling a list of festivals in his Krtyakalpataru. The Pala rulers of Mithila+Bengal & the Bhaumakaras of Odisha had also turned away from Vajrayana to Shaiva siddhanta at this time.

What sort of people are we getting nowadays ! This Jaiho seems to be a troll contributing nothing meaning to the discourse.

@TheLittleNaruto Yes. I too agree that everybody can't grasp everything. And I think that since I have given enough data to prove my point, it is of no use furthering the discussion on this topic.

@TheLittleNaruto @TheLittleNaruto You may say so. But I must say, every Hindu sect has some amount of unorthodoxy in it. Take for example Srivaisnavas insistence of Vedanta-desika being the incarnation of the temple bell of Venkatanatha's temple in Tirupati & the aniconism of the Ekasarana Vaisnavas of Assam.

[Vivekachuramani: 540]

Here is the line - दिगम्बरो वापि च साम्बरो वा त्वगम्बरो वापि चिदम्बरस्थः । उन्मत्तवद्वापि च वालवद्वा पिशाचवद्वापि चरत्यवन्याम् ।। Translation - Those established in Perfect Knowledge (i.e the jivanmukta) roam on the face of the earth sometimes as naked, sometimes fully clothed or sometimes clad in garments (like the rsis), sometimes behaving like a lunatic, sometimes behaving like a child or sometimes behaving like a ghost

In the words of Svami Vivekananda - a seed will blossom into a plant due to its inherent nature, it doesn't becomes part of the soil by planting in soil. Neither does it becomes water or sunlight by virtue of assimilating both.

Svami Saradananda, quoting the Vivekachuramani of Adi Shankara, describes His Sufi Sadhana as a living testament to his attainment of that highest state of God-realisation when once goes beyond all rules & regulations. I can quote that exact verse if you ask for it.

Besides, it isn't the first time a big personality had done something unorthodox. Adi Shankara's decision to perform the antyesti of his mother despite being a sannyasi & Ramanuja revealing his istamantra - the Astaksari to am assembled crowd in direct violation of the commands of his guru Mahapurna are such examples.

*Him

Embracing everything is different things though. - Yes, & this is what which makes him different from others.

My understanding is once, one gets vision of devi, there is no need of experiencing something else. - That is true, but He was no ordinary human. Even after obtaining siddhi in Kalikula marga & having darshana of Bhagavati Kali, He practices sadhana in Gaudiya Vaisnava marga, Ramanandi marga & Advaita Vedanta marga - which in his own words was done to set an example before others. Regarding Islam, the organisation doesn't advocates it's adherents to repeat the same, so be assured about it.v

Both the books were were published in 1910s & 1920s within the lifetime of many who had seen & interacted with Him. It didn't create so much furore in those times as it does now.

Yes. The 2 most authentic books about Sri Sri Ramakrishna - the Ramakrishna Lilaprasanga (written by his disciple, Svami Saradananda, the 1st General Secretary of the Ramakrishna Matha & Mission) & the Ramakrishna Kathamrita - both mention Him practicing Sufi mysticism for a brief time.

@TheLittleNaruto Unfortunately no. As a student who had once been preparing for NEET, I had a very tight schedule full with school & tuitions. But I used to annually visit the Matha to have darshana of Guru-maharaja during Durga Puja (provided I wasn't out).

*class 8

And my family also has a history of association with the Ramakrishna Math. My grandfather had received diksha from Svami Ranganathananda, the President of the Ramakrishna Math & Mission from 2005-07. And my maternal grandmother (who was largely responsible for instilling religiosity) had received diksha from a disciple of the Holy Mother Sri Sri Saradamani Devi, wife of Sri Sri Ramakrishna. So it wasn't something out of the blue.

@TheLittleNaruto Yes you can say that. At 2015, I was 13 yes old, studying in class 9. At that time, I did knew that Diksha meant receiving the mantra from the guru, which enables one to get darshana of God - courtesy of the Ramakrishna Kathamrita (a record of the the sayings of Sri Sri Ramakrishna by one of his devotees).

By the term guidance, if you mean presence of a guru, then yes. I received initiation on 2015 from Srimat Svami Prabhananda, Vice-President of the Ramakrishna Math & Mission. But after his exit from the mortal coil last year, I am mostly on my own.

@TheLittleNaruto I was always interested in dharma since I can remember although my family isn't religious like me.

@TheLittleNaruto A degree in Biotechnology is expected to yield a job in medicine manufacturing, food processing & other laboratory based work.

Biotechnology.

Please do quickly kick out this person as soon as possible @ @TheLittleNaruto

@TheLittleNaruto Fine. I am expecting to formally graduate in my B.Tech degree by the end of this month.

Please do consider this request with the other moderators.

*this. If not done, this user will continue to raise such polemic questions & create unpleasant debates in which politics will be drawn.

@TheLittleNaruto I request you & other moderators to expel the user SuradoeUchiha from his forum. His question record & today's conversation has proved that he has no genuine interest in contributing to this site & is actively involved in spoiling the tranquility of this forum.

@TheNittleNaruto I request you & other moderators to do something about this Suradoe_Uchiha. This person seems to have no genuine interest in contributing to this site & is only involved in creating unnecessary & unpleasant controversies.

hinduism.stackexchange.com/q/59599/22857 What sort of questions are we getting nowadays ?

@Haridasa If it is true, then good, & I would like you to quote your references. As far as my knowledge goes, violating antyajas (whom Manu portrays as born only to be enslaved) is prohibited.

@Haridasa True, but the original text treats sudras as enslaved people by default. There is a verse in Manusmṛti which authorises brahmins to snatch & confiscate the property of shudras at will, stating that a property of a shudra belongs to brahmins by default.

@Haridasa I am not saying that that it is righteous in our time. There is a section on rajadharma in Kalikapurana where it was mentioned about kings violating their dasis as a natural defect of monarchy (alongside wasting time in hunting).

Since the term for both enslaved people & those who work in exchange of wages in Sanskrit is dasa, I understand your confusion. Outraging the modesty of the enslaved woman is tolerated, but not of the contractual labourer, for then it became parastri-gamana.

Serfdom is a bit different from slavery, in that serfs in the Hindu notion is called the Praja, who payed taxes, while the slaves or dasa didn't.

Regarding release, I guess that it depended on the sweet will of the master. Manusmrti caricatures all sudras to be enslaved people by default, so it frowns upon releasing sudras from enslavement, stating that being enslaved is inherent to the sudra, so it is of no use freeing them.

Yajnavalkyasmrti discusses about the slave trade. Among many conditions, it describes debt bondage i.e selling one's own self to the creditor due to inability to repay debt & being captured by the enemy during wartime as means of enslavement. Most notably, it states that if a person unable to feed oneself in times of natural calamnities, manages to sustains himself on food provided by somebody else, then he is bound to be enslaved by his annadata. It also says that if somebody voluntarily submitted himself to somebody else, then he becomes the slave of the person to whom he submitted.

আর আরেকটা কথা, আমরা হিন্দুরা নিজেদের ধর্ম কে defend করতে পারি বলেই ধর্মদ্রোহের নামে ঘনঘন লোকের মাথা কেটে নেওয়ার দাবিতে নিরপরাধ লোকের সম্পত্তি ধ্বংস করি না বা কাউকে জ্যান্ত পুড়িয়েও মারি নি ।

Yes. The creator of Hindu philosophy Vinayak Damodar Savarkar was an atheist, he justified his atheism by stating that he couldn't believe in he existence of God who couldn't withstand the desecration his shrines & killings of his followers by infidels.

@SuradoeUchiha 'Hindutva is literally the embodiment & representation of Hinduism' 👀👀👀👀👀 Since when did a ideology promulgated by an atheist became the spokesperson of the entire faith. And if you have so much problem with Hinduism & so much adoration for Abraham's faiths, then why don't you apostasize & convert to either Islam or Christianity ?

@SuradoeUchiha Firstly, get out of the Wikipedia community. Then learn some Indic languages - Sanskrit & Hindi would be best. And then read the original texts instead of opinion pieces on them by others.

@SuradoeUchiha Its not my job to lecture others about dharma.

But sometimes even centralised organisations sometimes remain silent. Your attempts sound similar to somebody trying to say Catholicism promotes incest because it didn't condemn Spanish kings having sex with their own step-grandmothers & nieces