MichoelR

We just said long tachanun this morning. Because of this discussion I felt very virtuous!

@Aaron Dunno. Not helpful.

Downvoted since it seems to be a polemic rather than an answer, and makes various claims about the sources without bringing one.

No one believes any of that.

Is the thing that's bothering you that this applies specifically to tzaddikim, not to everyone? IOW I would have guessed (one needs to see the Ramban's actual words!) that sometimes Hashem just makes people do what he needs done, period. "לב מלכים ביד ה'", and such.

I asked you for sources. No point in your sending me to do my own research.

"If you understand the secret of the twelve" "and also that of... then you will recognize the truth". It surely says something, but doesn't give license to make things up and then claim he said what someone else suggested. If this is what you have then you have nothing.

I guess I'm done here. You have still not given me any texts of his at all, except one which does not say anything. I'm not asking how others interpret him, I'm asking if you have any actual evidence.

It looks like your source is what someone else (the blue numbers) said, rather than what he said. I am not arguing about his distinguished character, I am waiting to see a source for his words that say what you claim. You keep quoting what others claim about him.

As for the last twelve verses in the Torah, for at least eight of them we have an explicit gemara Bava Basra 15a sefaria.org/Bava_Batra.15a.4?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en, you don't need the Ibn Ezra for that.

I don't think you are quoting the Ibn Ezra correctly. Please provide a quote. I just don't think he said that.

Where are these quotes from? I'm still waiting for a quote from an early authority.

I'm guessing the Sforno said no such thing?

@TurkHill I don't think we know what Rashi believed about Hashem. - In any case, the 13 principles at least define what the Rambam considered heretical views. As with any other issue of Jewish law, there will be more complexity if you look for more opinions.

Let us continue this discussion in chat.

@YaacovDeane Well, that was my question, wasn't it? What is the right understanding? I'm fine with being wrong, but I'd like to understand how.

That's the halacha. The ה is for the whole section of Yoreh Deah. See the title page I posted.

@YaacovDeane In what I could find: hebrewbooks.org/25076, it's chelek 5.

@YaacovDeane I don't think that addresses my exact concern. The Rebbe is giving a very specific psak here, which choice to make in a particular situation. Stop now and review, don't continue to the next topic. That's a choice, and he's poskining on what is the right choice. It isn't a question of spiritual level, it's a question of what's the right thing to do. I think I see [every yeshiva in the world AFAIK] making a different choice, and I'd like to know how to explain that.

@YaacovDeane Hmm, can't win.

@YaacovDeane You are right. I meant "chelek 5"?

By me, the key idea is that you are not allowed to continue to learn further until you have safeguarded everything you learned till now. It's a balance; the Alter Rebbe is saying (to me) that everything I have ever seen chooses that balance wrong.

@shmosel I hasten to note that I didn't claim I was memorizing. Beautiful, but all I have been trying to do is, know what the mishnah is saying when I read it. Simple translation, אוקימתא, any straight explanation needed to make sense of it. Some mishnayos are just readable, some need a "post-it note" attached to make them readable.

It's a very exciting idea to me: I could actually come to know mishnayos, at least some of them. Whereas the same program without the chazarah is, A mishnah a day, see them again in 11 years. A big difference.

@Dov, on mishnayos I definitely hear that what the Rebbe is suggesting is actually 100% do-able. I recently started a program where they do one mishnah a day. I have found that having learned a mishnah, I can chazer it in fifteen seconds, and a whole perek in a couple of minutes. We have done seven masechtos so far, in Taharos (!), 40-odd perakim, and I found I can - as long as I don't let myself forget what they're about - chazer all seven of them in a couple of weeks, without a true seder, basically during waiting times at davening. Mishnayos are designed for chazarah.

@shmosel that is a good point. We tread a narrow path. I think, though, that mostly we choose one side of the path.

@Dov , Fred I know these are programs that emphasize chazarah, and they are at least similar to what we have been discussing. Beautiful. I still don't see that they accept what the Shulchan Aruch Harav is pushing: a clear commitment that you are going to make sure you remember everything from the past, even if your seder going forward is drastically interrupted. - so that your pace is limited by your abilities to remember.

@Fred Thank you, Fred. But see my comments there!

@robev Thanks much!

@robev, a link please?

@Heshy I hear, and you're making a good point. But every yeshiva I've ever known (I've been in Chabad yeshivos too, a little) does not do this on any part of their learning. Learn, chazer!, learn, chazer!, chazer! - Okay, now it's time to start the new masechta, Sure you can chazer the previous masechta, you should!, but don't take too much of your time for it - we need to focus on the new masechta now.

I think you owe me a bracha.

@outofshie9 No idea how they count time, but I would not do that.

@johnny830 I never did that. Are you in a different time zone or something?

@YaacovDeane Well, that was my question, wasn't it? What is the right understanding? I'm fine with being wrong, but I'd like to understand how.

That's the halacha. The ה is for the whole section of Yoreh Deah. See the title page I posted.

@YaacovDeane In what I could find: hebrewbooks.org/25076, it's chelek 5.

@YaacovDeane I don't think that addresses my exact concern. The Rebbe is giving a very specific psak here, which choice to make in a particular situation. Stop now and review, don't continue to the next topic. That's a choice, and he's poskining on what is the right choice. It isn't a question of spiritual level, it's a question of what's the right thing to do. I think I see [every yeshiva in the world AFAIK] making a different choice, and I'd like to know how to explain that.

@YaacovDeane Hmm, can't win.

@YaacovDeane You are right. I meant "chelek 5"?

By me, the key idea is that you are not allowed to continue to learn further until you have safeguarded everything you learned till now. It's a balance; the Alter Rebbe is saying (to me) that everything I have ever seen chooses that balance wrong.

@shmosel I hasten to note that I didn't claim I was memorizing. Beautiful, but all I have been trying to do is, know what the mishnah is saying when I read it. Simple translation, אוקימתא, any straight explanation needed to make sense of it. Some mishnayos are just readable, some need a "post-it note" attached to make them readable.

It's a very exciting idea to me: I could actually come to know mishnayos, at least some of them. Whereas the same program without the chazarah is, A mishnah a day, see them again in 11 years. A big difference.

@Dov, on mishnayos I definitely hear that what the Rebbe is suggesting is actually 100% do-able. I recently started a program where they do one mishnah a day. I have found that having learned a mishnah, I can chazer it in fifteen seconds, and a whole perek in a couple of minutes. We have done seven masechtos so far, in Taharos (!), 40-odd perakim, and I found I can - as long as I don't let myself forget what they're about - chazer all seven of them in a couple of weeks, without a true seder, basically during waiting times at davening. Mishnayos are designed for chazarah.

@shmosel that is a good point. We tread a narrow path. I think, though, that mostly we choose one side of the path.

@Dov , Fred I know these are programs that emphasize chazarah, and they are at least similar to what we have been discussing. Beautiful. I still don't see that they accept what the Shulchan Aruch Harav is pushing: a clear commitment that you are going to make sure you remember everything from the past, even if your seder going forward is drastically interrupted. - so that your pace is limited by your abilities to remember.

@Fred Thank you, Fred. But see my comments there!

@robev Thanks much!

@robev, a link please?

@Heshy I hear, and you're making a good point. But every yeshiva I've ever known (I've been in Chabad yeshivos too, a little) does not do this on any part of their learning. Learn, chazer!, learn, chazer!, chazer! - Okay, now it's time to start the new masechta, Sure you can chazer the previous masechta, you should!, but don't take too much of your time for it - we need to focus on the new masechta now.