Jun 30, 2024 13:26
@MoziburUllah "Justice" would be to rebuild the ancient centuries-old Jewish community of Gaza which thanks to Arab ethnic cleansing was eradicated in 1948. Or the even more ancient Jewish community of Hebron, which was decimated by Arab mobs in 1929; and no, the three or four streets in Hebron proper allotted to the Jewish ghetto constantly labelled "settlers" is a poor substitute.
Jun 30, 2024 13:21
@MoziburUllah You seem to have missed the source I quoted about Jews' position in Jerusalem in 1854, almost 90 years before the Holocaust, and long before anyone was identifying as Palestinian; even though Jews were the majority, Muslims still ruled with an iron fist. Such an Arab/Muslim attitude was certainly not unique to then-Ottoman-Palestine: meforum.org/65271/uncle-tom-and-the-happy-dhimmi
Jun 30, 2024 13:17
@MoziburUllah What does it mean for a right to be "plausible"? Provide a full, uncensored source so we can try to tease out a meaning from the legalese.
Jun 30, 2024 13:15
The argument for apartheid can only be made if you have a government and laws that discriminate between citizens of different ethnicities. Israel's government and laws most emphatically do not. (except for some minor points which allow Israel to remain a multicultural society, such as informally allowing bigamy in the Bedouin even though it's illegal under Israeli law.)
Jun 30, 2024 13:11
@MoziburUllah No, it isn't. Is Israel also guilty of apartheid when it doesn't provide citizenship and all benefits thereof to the people of Nigeria? No, because Nigeria - for better or worse - has a government; it is that government's responsibility to take care of its peoples' rights. The PA and Hamas are no less responsible.
Jun 30, 2024 13:09
The silliness of the ICC accusation can be easily demonstrated - as you so aptly pointed out - by facts on the ground, which indicate that there is no famine in Gaza; meat, chicken and fresh vegetables are all available, if at a slightly higher price than pre-war levels. Source
Jun 30, 2024 13:05
The "reputable human rights organizations" have an axe to grind. For example, the Amnesty apartheid report conflates between the Arabs/Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, who enjoy full rights and equality under law and (generally) de facto; and Palestinians under PA or Hamas control, whose rights are to be assured by the PA or Hamas. To get an idea of how skewed these organizations can be, take the Eli Yishai misquote as an example.
Jun 30, 2024 13:05
plausibly committed genocide If your source is the ICJ ruling, former ICJ President Joan Donoghue clarified that the court ruled Palestinians had a right to be protected from genocide, and South Africa had a right to bring their case, but not that Israel was plausibly committing genocide. Source at 5:00.
Jun 30, 2024 13:05
This attitude is prevalent in much of the Arab world today. Else, how do you explain the destruction of one ancient synagogue in Tunisia by a violent mob of hundreds and the vandalism of another since Israel began responding to the Hamas atrocities of Oct. 7th? Why is it OK to damage Jewish property because Israel has done something wrong?
Jun 30, 2024 13:05
"The point is whilst Israel is a regional power, the Palestinians have nothing. In fact, less than nothing" When Jews had nothing and Arabs/Muslim had everything, Muslims were "of course, the masters in every respect...Nothing equals the misery and the sufferings of the Jews at Jerusalem, inhabiting the most filthy quarter of the town, called hareth-el-yahoud, the quarter of dirt, ... – the constant objects of Mussulman oppression and intolerance". Source.
 
Feb 9, 2024 07:30
Israel's high fertility rate is not because of the "do-nothing Haredim and other religious nuts" (NB. way to go diversity and inclusion!) but is across the board in all sectors of Jewish society. (Arab society has normalized towards Western norms, as I noted.) The Haredi sector has actually seen a slight decrease in fertility over the past decade.
I find your division of Israeli society between "intelligent secular Ashkenazi" and "do-nothing Haredim and other religious nuts" simplistic in the extreme, as well as racially and religiously prejudiced. It ignores such phenomena as the plethora
Feb 9, 2024 07:06
Did Israel cause the Sunni/Shia schism at the heart of Iran's war against the rest of the world? Did Israel cause the Syrian civil war? Did Israel cause Iraq to invade Kuwait?
The Muslim world is generally drawing closer to Israel. Consider: had Hamas not attacked on Oct. 7th, KSA would undoubtedly already have joined the Abraham Accords. Every other Islamic nation would have followed quickly behind. This would have reversed, in one fell swoop, the Mufti's transformation of the anti-Zionisim of the Arabs of then-Palestine into a pan-Islamic/pan-Arab cause.
Feb 9, 2024 06:13
Jordanian society is still extremely anti-Israel, as is Egyptian society. But there isn't a perfect correlation between legitimate leadership and democracies; in the Middle East, it's rather the reverse - democratic institutions have no inherent legitimacy, so they are corrupted by whoever has the biggest guns.
All the relatively stable regimes have legitimacy, some more some less. Jordan's legitimacy IMO stems from the Hashemites' honest and obvious desire to benefit their people. Egypt has a strong tradition dating back to the pharaohs of centralized rule. Each of the emirates in UAE and
Feb 9, 2024 05:56
@MathematicsStudent1122 The use of "policy document" means the 1988 charter is still in full force, as has been confirmed by multiple Hamas representatives. Even the 2017 charter has no contradictions, once we get away from preconceived notions of Hamas moderation.
Feb 9, 2024 05:48
The idea of resettlement would not have gained such force were it not for the atrocities of Oct.
(NB Which I remind you were far more up close and personal than Israeli air and ground strikes at military targets that harmed civilians. And were far more "creative" as well - lots of zip ties, deliberate mutilations & gender-based violence, among other things.
But Hamas had its own "resettlement conference", long before Oct. 7th: https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-sponsored-promise-hereafter-conference-phase-following-liberation-palestine-and . But no outrage of course, the oppressed can do n
Feb 9, 2024 05:33
There are no Palestinian factions willing to formally recognize any Jewish claim, therefore by definition there are no Palestinian factions who see Israel as anything other than illegitimate.
RE: 2009-2022, sources? Why those specific years - if we look at 2010-2011 vs 2015, what would we find?
But any dips in casualties are more likely because of more effective Israeli management of terror than anything else.
Feb 9, 2024 04:46
Although there are indications that it's the PA mixing in, rather than the residents themselves. honestreporting.com/…
Feb 9, 2024 04:45
Let's talk about Sheikh Jarrah. The timeline is as follows:
1876: Two Jewish communal trusts purchase part of the land around the tomb of Simon the Just. One of the trusts built a neighbood.
1891: A private company bought an additional plot in the area and built another neighborhood.
1948: The Jewish residents were evacuated. Jordan took control of the area. Some Palestinian refugees settled in the houses.
1956: Jordan-UNRWA built a compound for refugees on the portion belonging to the other trust.
Feb 9, 2024 03:54
I'm not dismissing Arafat as an ex-terrorist, because he never stopped being one. (Unlike Menachem Begin, who at two separate junctures held his party back from violent response, because he feared a civil war.) Bassem Eid describes the incredible letdown when he realized - right after the establishment of the PA - that the same reign of terror Arafat & co. had directed to Israelis & Jews would continue to be directed at Palestinians. https://henryjacksonsociety.org/publications/confronting-human-rights-abuses-in-the-palestinian-authority/
Feb 9, 2024 03:21
@MathematicsStudent1122 Your description of four arbitrary individuals as "Ben Gvir lackeys" is curious. Do you imagine he's been handing out party funds to buy loyalty? Or is Ben Gvir some kind of Hitlerish demagogue, able to inspire supreme loyalty by his speeches alone?
Feb 9, 2024 02:20
@MathematicsStudent1122 NB. I'm curious: on what basis are you putting Lapid and Meir in the same category?
Feb 9, 2024 02:20
Israel is not shifting right primarily because of demographics (although that is a factor) but because the left was pushing the Oslo Accords on the assumption that everyone wants more or less the same things and anything can be bought for economic prosperity. This was not true of the Arabs of Palestine a century ago - Musa Alami famously told Ben Gurion he'd prefer the land remain poor and desolate even for another hundred years rather than work with the Zionists.
It is also not true today, as the same 2017 Hamas policy document (in the original Arabic, not a "charter") states: "There shall
Feb 9, 2024 02:19
Ben Gvir today disavows his youthful views (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_cnRNou-lY) and promotes full rights for Israel's Arab citizens. You can hardly claim Arafat underwent some kind of transformation without allowing the same for Ben Gvir.
He demonstrated it to the satisfaction of Israel's Supreme Court, unlike Arafat who never demonstrated any such thing.
Even if you want to argue the transformation is only skin deep for public consumption, that itself proves Hanania's point, that Israeli society places firm limits on its extremists.
Feb 5, 2024 14:34
Hanania's claim is not that Palestinian society is forever doomed, but that Palestinian society **as it is today** cannot rein in its extremists. Palestinian society can certainly change, even though it would require massive cultural shifts.
Jordan is ruled by a fundamentally Middle Eastern regime - the Hashemite king & aristocracy - which nevertheless shows deep responsibility towards its people. Even so, Jordan is balanced on a knife edge, with the Hashemites continuously having to placate the Palestinian majority, against Jordan's clear self-interest in remaining on the US's good side &
Feb 5, 2024 14:28
How does this square with:
"20. ... However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus."
Very simple. If Fatah manages to get the aforementioned state, Hamas won't denounce them as traitors to the cause.
Feb 5, 2024 14:28
RE moderation of the 2017 policy document (not a "charter" per the original Arabic):
"19. There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. ...
21. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. ...
27. ... There is no alternative to a fully sovereign Palestinian State on the entire national Palestinian soil, with Jeru
Feb 5, 2024 14:21
The agreement is reproduced in the PDF available at jerusaleminstitute.org.il/en/publications/…
Feb 5, 2024 14:21
@MathematicsStudent1122 Funny you should mention Sheikh Jarrah. So much aggravation could have been avoided if only the Jordanians who ethnically cleansed the Jewish owners in 1948 would have given full title to the UNRWA refugee families they dumped there. Pity they didn't trust the refugees as far as they could throw them, & only gave them tenancy rights, as in the Jordan-UNRWA agreement.
Feb 5, 2024 14:18
The PA uses the IDF as its own private enforcer against rival Palestinian factions; it does not surrender Fatah members committing violence to the IDF.
Feb 5, 2024 14:16
RE: Arafat's "moderation" - At the same time as Arafat had deputized Mahmoud Abbas to sign Oslo 1, he was hinting in a mosque in Johannesburg about his plans to end Israel.
But you're proving Hanania's point. It took a brutal terrorist-turned-totalitarian-dictator to force all the extremists to fall in line, otherwise the extremists would run the asylum.
Feb 5, 2024 14:16
Smotrich, Ben Gvir & their parties are all committed to preserving basic human rights for all. They stand behind all citizens of Israel having full civil rights & equality under law.
That's why they suggest only encouraging voluntary transfer - streamlining & legalizing the emigration process from Gaza, & finding appropriate destinations - without any coercive element whatsoever; & argue the IDF should be handling aid distribution in Gaza so it doesn't go to Hamas.
Even if you argue they're taking a position to earn brownie points with the electorate or to fall in with some social pressure,
Feb 5, 2024 13:43
Israel could have done what Hamas did - burn everything to the ground. Hamas didn't seem to be all that fussed about minor things lke human rights during their attack.
As for your second claimed reason, Israel was protecting the rights & equality of its non-Jewish citizens long before the 70s. Countries who see human rights as something worth fighting for, do so both for their own people & for their enemies (when possible).
Feb 5, 2024 13:34
@MathematicsStudent1122 Per the article you've quoted, that loss of support correlates with those least likely to closely follow the conflict. Also, if you're providing the views of the 18-24 cohort as some kind of proof of morality, the same article notes "that among 18-35-year-olds, over a third believed that having a leader who does not bother with a parliament or elections is a good way of running a country" & "42% said that army rule is a good way of running a country".
Feb 5, 2024 06:25
"What’s required is a societal consensus against extremists, or at least the institutional capacity to restrict the ability of minorities to play the role of spoiler." https://www.richardhanania.com/p/why-palestine-cant-deliver-peace
Israel absolutely has that. Palestinians do not.
Feb 5, 2024 06:22
@MathematicsStudent1122 What the world heard from those Israeli politicians were quotes distorted & taken out of context. The ICJ didn't see fit to order Israel to stop its war against Hamas as part of the provisionary measures.
Feb 5, 2024 06:20
@MathematicsStudent1122 If the IDF was truly interested in emptying the West Bank, they would have done it long ago. But Israel still hopes a rational Palestinian leadership will emerge, one that will truly care about the welfare of its people, instead of lining their own pockets in the name of the Palestine Cause.
Feb 5, 2024 06:18
@MathematicsStudent1122 Sources, please?
Feb 5, 2024 06:18
@MathematicsStudent1122 Will you deny the historical Jewish connection between the sea & the river now?
Feb 5, 2024 06:17
@MathematicsStudent1122 Palestinian 17 year-old proudly posing with a machine gun in full uniform != "Palestinian child".
Feb 5, 2024 06:16
@MathematicsStudent1122 There is absolutely no equivalence between members of paramilitary organizations shooting to kill, & civilians defending themselves & their property, relying on IDF protection to enforce law & order.
Feb 5, 2024 06:11
"Under American law they can receive very long sentences and even be sentenced to life in prison. Under American law, individuals who were part of a group engaged in rock-throwing can be convicted and imprisoned even if they did not personally throw any missiles." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_throwing#United_States
Feb 5, 2024 06:11
@MathematicsStudent1122 "Rock-throwing can be a felony and rock-throwers could face criminal charges, dependent on the circumstances that may include second degree murder, aggravated assault, throwing a missile into an occupied vehicle, criminal possession of a weapon, reckless endangerment of life, and aggravated assault with a lethal weapon. Punishment upon conviction varies as with all punishments for all crimes. ... Rock throwers can be charged, tried, and convicted even when no injuries or damage result.
Feb 5, 2024 05:35
Invasion of the body snatchers. Or the head snatchers. 👆
Feb 5, 2024 05:29
The images of the points of entry on Oct. 7th show wide open spaces on both sides of the fence, with people streaming in very specific directions. Your picture of poor miserable creatures holding up their faces for a touch of sunlight & freedom falls away. Instead, you have a barbarian mob imitating the Muslim conquerors of old, except instead of drawn swords & camels - AK-16s, pickup trucks, donkeys & aluminum canes.
Feb 5, 2024 05:26
Nobody claims there are no innocents in Gaza. But the majority of the population supports Hamas, or at the very least the Jew-free vision of Palestine offered by Hamas & the PA. That is undeniable.
Feb 5, 2024 05:23
Undoubtedly, JFK sees more traffic; but hardly an "open-air prison".
Feb 5, 2024 05:22
Prior to Oct. 7th 20,000 Gazans had work permits to enter & exit Israel every day.
The OCHA website records some 424,217 exits & 414,646 entries from & to Gaza in 2022.