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1:55 AM
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Q: Haggadah call for submissions: part 1 (up to Magid)

Monica CellioThis post covers questions and answers for the following topics: anything pre-seder (e.g. search for chameitz) Kadeish (please include all general wine/cups questions here to make it easier to organize, but any that are specific to particular cups should go in their sections) Urchatz Karpas Yac...

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Q: Haggadah call for submissions: part 2 (Magid)

Monica CellioThis post covers questions and answers for the following topics: Magid (all parts) Each answer here should cover one question and its answer(s), following this template. There is no need to cover all answers in your work; choose the subset of content that you think works best for this projec...

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Q: Haggadah call for submissions: part 3 (Rachtzah through Shulchan Orech)

Monica CellioThis post covers questions and answers for the following topics: Rachtzah Motzi Matzah Maror Koreich Shulchan Orechdisc Each answer here should cover one question and its answer(s), following this template. There is no need to cover all answers in your work; choose the subset of content that...

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Q: Haggadah call for submissions: part 4 (Tzafun through end)

Monica CellioThis post covers questions and answers for the following topics: Tzafun Bareich Hallel Nirtzah Each answer here should cover one question and its answer(s), following this template. There is no need to cover all answers in your work; choose the subset of content that you think works best for...

 
2:06 AM
Hi all. The calls for submissions are up (and Meta-Man has already announced them). Please note that we're aiming for March 18 for content. While we can push the ever-gracious Jin later, it'd be nice to not be doing this at the last minute, with everybody printing things out the morning of the first seder etc. Please help.
3
 
2:17 AM
@MonicaCellio Pin?
 
@HodofHod good idea. Done.
 
Looking to see if I have anything useful, and I'm shocked to see I have contributed little to nothing about the seder. Must remedy that....
 
@HodofHod Indeed! Remedy that, but you can also help by picking a question that you think would be good in the haggadah supplement and working it up as one. :-)
 
2:44 AM
I have a seriously shtark and also academic answer to a heretofore unasked question, which happens to be one of my annual staples. Should I post it? Or is it better to search and recommend (and format) other posts?
 
@SethJ contributions of new questions (with answers) are certainly worthwhile; it's the bread and butter of this site. So if you think the question will be a good candidate for the supplement, please do ask and plan to do it up for the project!
 
3:37 AM
Always lovely when you're researching something Jewish and you stumble on a site "proving" Blood Libels/Elders of Zion/Pick-Your-Favorite-Jewish-Libel.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:00 AM
@SethJ Ask! Ask! Ask! Ask other questions that you've heard too. Even things that seem old to you won't to others, and you never know what other answers you'll find. Asking a question on Mi Yodeya doesn't mean you are looking for info (but do make sure to phrase your questions as if you were!).
 
@DoubleAA you promised to learn that rambam with me since mosSoei shabboth
 
@DhoweedYaAgov I've been busy :)
let's hear it!
 
UR A LIAR
 
@DhoweedYaAgov I beg to differ.
 
@DoubleAA i just got home from work so im not really into learning atm
 
5:02 AM
@DhoweedYaAgov UR A LIAR
besides, how could someone be not into learning?
 
@DoubleAA being a mashigiach at a sheba brochoth caterer and such is pretty tiring
you have to sit there and watch the goyim prepare food, then taste the food, then taste some more
then you need to walk around to make room for more tasting
 
@DhoweedYaAgov Sounds horrible :)
 
@DoubleAA it is because i also collect money in the end from the party so i have to wait till everyone benches and shmoozes their way out of the hall
then i can go collect from the baalei simhHO
anyway what was that negel vaser thing we you were telling me bout yesterday?
break it down for me
 
@DhoweedYaAgov What happened to your Rambam?
 
@DoubleAA this too is rambam
@DoubleAA my other rambam was standing on a place which is 3 tefochim high
whe davening
@DoubleAA also i still want to go over that break down of yahudim and the odah and hod roots
i also want to go over megilloh in yarushalmi but i need to go buy it first :P
SO MUCH LEARNING
 
5:10 AM
@DhoweedYaAgov You read the article. There are two main non-kabbalistic schools of thought regarding washing in the morning. Rosh/Rambam view it as prep for tefillo, while Rashba (responsum 194) says:
שאלה: למה תקנו ברכת ענט"י =על נטילת ידים= בשחרית? שברכה זו לא נתקנה, אלא על הפת בשעת סעודה?

תשובה: איברא, כך נהגו בכל מקום, לברך בשחרית ענט"י =על נטילת ידים=, ומקפידים בה, בכל תנאי הנטילה בשעת סעודה. ואני לא מצאתי בשום מקום, דבר ברור, שיצטרך אדם ליטול ידיו שחרית. דאי משום: שבתא, ובת מלך; די ברחיצה. ואי משום תפלה וק"ש =וקריאת שמע=, די: או ברחיצה, או בנקיון עפר וצרורות. וכדאמר: מידי ארחץ במים, כתיב? בנקיון; כתיב, בכל דבר דמנקי. וגם בברכות, רב לייט אמאן דמהדר אמיא, בעדן צלותא. אלא שיש לי קצת דמדומי ראיה, לחיוב הנטילה בכלי בשחר, ממה דאמר פרק כל הבשר. אמר רב: נוטל אדם ידיו שחרית, ומתנה עליהם כל
 
1
A: Which alphabet were the original Torah scrolls in?

GaryThe March/April 2010 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review had an article By O. Goldwasser on the creation and evolution of the Hebrew alphabet. He writes that the earliest (around 1600 BCE) aleph-betic writings were found in the Sinai mines alongside Hieroglyphic writings. Evidently it started...

right thats what i said didnt it?
rambam and rosh hold you say it before davening
not when you wake up
 
@DhoweedYaAgov Yes. So? That doesn't mean everyone else is nonsense. It just means that there are different opinions. You said every other opinion was kabbalistic nonsense.
 
well regarding the kabbalistic part its none sense too me sorry
 
@DhoweedYaAgov But the Rashba isn't presenting kabbala!
 
nope
but it still not like gemoroh which gives a order of brochoth to say in order
 
5:14 AM
@DhoweedYaAgov ok. the rashba even says that. did you read the teshuva i just quoted? he says 'this is not in the gemara'
(FTR Rashba and R Moses de Leon are roughly contemporaries)
@DhoweedYaAgov You say all those brachot every day?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov What, you don't wear belts? :)
 
i dont say brocho of rooster
 
but why not על מצות תפילין ?
 
i do say it
when putting tafillin
 
5:17 AM
@DhoweedYaAgov You say two brachoth every day on your tafillin?
 
yea
i say all brochoth when i get out of bed accordingly and when i put on clothes and such
 
@DhoweedYaAgov But the Rambam says not to unless you make a hefseq
ד,ד תפילין של ראש, אינה מעכבת של יד, ושל יד, אינה מעכבת של ראש--מפני שהן שתי מצוות, זו לעצמה וזו לעצמה. וכיצד מברך עליהן--על של ראש, מברך אשר קידשנו במצוותיו וציוונו על מצות תפילין; ועל של יד, מברך אשר קידשנו במצוותיו וציוונו להניח תפילין.

ד,ה במה דברים אמורים, בשהניח אחת מהן; אבל אם הניח שתיהן--מברך ברכה אחת, להניח תפילין, וקושר של יד תחילה, ואחר כך מניח של ראש. וכשהוא חולץ, חולץ של ראש תחילה, ואחר כך חולץ של יד.
 
not in the shul
i didnt learn hilchoth tafillin all that well, i am still learning everything a new
many things i do for sure dont go with rambam because i still do my old teachings of what i learned before going full rambam
i shouldnt say many i should say a little bit more than what is to my taste
:P
 
@DhoweedYaAgov You should check your tefillin parshiyos. Many ashkenazim have the fourth parsha written as a sethuma whereas the rambam requires it to be a pethuha.
 
that is why im learning full rambam and dropped gamoroh for a bit to regain my stability on holochik grounds
i know dude im trying real hard to raise money for a new pair
 
5:23 AM
@DhoweedYaAgov And I assume you already have your shel rosh's knot tied in the double-daleth style.
 
i really want jowil and everything
 
@DhoweedYaAgov How can you say a bracha in the meantime?
 
yea havent put on tafillin in a few weeks man
because of this kasha
i need to see what mori gafih says
 
@DhoweedYaAgov You could at least put them on misafeq
 
mori gafih says not to wear sSisSith goton because its not a real lavush and its considered carrying on shabboth
he says if you wear them dont make a brocho
i dont wear them, but i assume it should go the same for tafillin
 
5:25 AM
@DhoweedYaAgov tefillin aren't allowed to be on jowil IIRC. Theyre supposed to be on klaf (not even duchsustus)
 
right klaf is still same color as jowil
unlike the tosofoth color and material from what its made of
 
@DhoweedYaAgov quite a reasonable psak
 
@DoubleAA a lot of things with what i grew up with in judaism are not "judaism" for me anymore and thats what gets me
for example mevushal and non mevushal. im pretty sure there is no such concept from rambam. it was made by tosofoth
gemoroh says all wine not mevushal or non mevushal
 
@DhoweedYaAgov You know, there are people besides the Rambam and Tosfoth.
 
when i say tosofoth i mean their school of thought when i say rambam i mean rambam and his school of thought
@DoubleAA did you read mori jose faur's papers on tosofoth and rambam?
 
5:30 AM
@DhoweedYaAgov You know, there are other schools of thought besides those of the Rambam and Tosfoth.
 
ov vey
 
@DhoweedYaAgov אין מתנסך לעבודה זרה, אלא יין שראוי להיקרב על גבי המזבח; ומפני זה כשגזרו על סתם יינם וגזרו על כל יין שייגע בו הגוי שיהיה אסור בהניה, לא גזרו אלא על היין שראוי להתנסך. לפיכך יין מבושל של ישראל שנגע בו הגוי--אינו אסור, ומותר לשתותו עם הגוי בכוס אחד; אבל יין מזוג, ויין שהתחיל להחמיץ ואפשר שיישתה--אם נגע בו, נאסר.
That's the Rambam. mechon-mamre.org/i/5211.htm#6
I think you should make sure to check things before asserting Rishonim made things up, certainly before you decide to disregard a practice you have grown up with.
@DhoweedYaAgov I have not. I have heard only good things about him though.
 
yea you should totally read them
pure genius and scholar he is
but he is not liked in the syrian community in flatbush
they "kicked" him out or he left himself, the main thing is they called him a min/apikorus for no reason
in my yshiva there is a syrian hHachom who has a shul in that area, and i wanted to find out info bout mori faur, the guy gave me a blank look like he didnt know who i was talking bout
i approached him one more time later in the day and he said there is a bochur who had his uncle learn by mori faur you should ask him instead of me
i have yet to talk to that bochur :p
@DoubleAA you live in bk?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov nope
So you got a Rambam to talk about or what?
 
@DoubleAA chayas.com/AntiRAMBAM.pdf this is the major article you should read josefaurstudies.org this is mori faurs site
The Legal Thinking of the Tosafot: A Historical Approach as well
 
5:41 AM
The wedding hall that you were tasting all the food at: they keep yoshon? do chalita to all their meat?
do they do bishul yisrael that isn't just a twig in the fire?
 
im not present at cooking
im present at plating
 
I'm just wondering how you were tasting the food
 
when being plated
The rabbis forbade Jews to have commerce or to drink wine that was handled by a
gentile. However, wine was an important factor in the economic and social life of
France. Therefore, great efforts were made by the French rabbis to demonstrate that this
injunction did not apply to their particular situation. They emphasized that this injunction
was valid only in a place where wine was used for "idolatrous services." Although wine
was used in the Mass, in which the Blood of Jesus was transubstantiation into wine, in
 
@DhoweedYaAgov Sounds like it was written by Grach
Haym Soloveichik that is.
 
quoting fro mori faur
 
5:50 AM
@DhoweedYaAgov Ok. That doesn't say Tosfot made up mevushal.
If you learn the sugya, you'll find a number of kullot in the French Ashkenazi Rishonim, usually pertaining to hamshacha, that is, when the smashed grape juice is considered wine to make it susceptible to being touched by a non-jew.
 
no i got mori faur wrong, sorry
nothing to do with mevushal
 
Additionally, some Ashkenazim were lenient on deriving benefit from wine touched by a non-Jew, even without drinking it. This is related to two different reasons given in the Talmud Bavli for the enactment: worries about AZ usage, and lest we come to intermarry. Some Ashkenazim, not viewing Christianity as AZ, thought to not make the wine as forbidden because it was only the intermarriage concern that was relevant.
 
This is method of analysis was applied to alleviate many personal situations. For
instance, Jewish law forbids a close relative of deceased to eat meat or drink wine before
the burial.
68
Nonetheless R. Tam did not abstain from eating meat and drinking wine
when his sister died. He argued that since he did not have to to take part in her burial he
was exempt from the aforementioned restrictions:
69
When the sister of R, Tam died, he was informed [about the matter] in another city where
he was. Nonetheless he ate meat and drank wine. He justified his behavior on the
 
@DhoweedYaAgov Well if you say "Jewish Law says X and Rabbeinu Tam says Y" then of course he'll look like an idiot.
 
nisht azoy?
 
5:55 AM
If you say "Jewish Law says X generally and Rabbeinu Tam applied the reasoning in certain situations to get other conclusions" then he doesn't sound so bad.
 
but jewish law says x to that certain situation which r tam is paskening for
no?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov I can't say. I don't know the details.
 
mori faur says its a method which was invented by the tosofot school which goes along the lines of the gemoroh says this but if we do it a bit different we can go around the law
 
@DhoweedYaAgov I've learned a decent number of Tosfots and that's not what I see in them.
 
maybe you should read that paper by mori faur and re think what you learned
?
 
5:59 AM
Remember, it's not always so clear what the gemara's conclusion is.
@DhoweedYaAgov I'll probably read it, and rethink the information I'd heard about him
 
that too :P
it is not so clear right, but having a proper school of thought helps you get the fuzzyness out. also having a faulty text of a gemoroh is also a problem
 
@DhoweedYaAgov Lemme guess: the Rambam's version was 100% accurate and everyone else's was messed up.
You didn't answer me about the food: was it yoshon? was there chaita on the meat? how else could you have eaten it?
 
@rambam says he had a gamoroh from 800 years prior to him and compared it to other gemorohs in his time and they were faulty
same with ben oshers sefer torah(aleppo codex) compared to ashkenazim sefer torah
i dont know the chalah or anything else was yoshon
i assume yes
 
@DhoweedYaAgov 800 years prior to the Rambam was not that much later than the mishna.
 
thats what im saying
it was 100years after the last sanhedrin
 
6:06 AM
@DhoweedYaAgov Maybe he's missing some of the discussions of Abaye and Rava :)
and halacha kebasraa
 
like i said i am not there when the goyim cook and bake and w/e else they do with the food in the kitchen. its in williamsburg, they bring the food already prepared here to boro park to the hall, and i take over the mashgiach part
i turn on the fires and such to reheat the food
 
@DhoweedYaAgov is all the meat muchlat? do you do chalita on your meat? for the rambam it is assur deoraisa otherwise.
@ShmuelBrin Well said.
 
i know, most meat here are not kosher al pi rambam, i try not to eat meat at all.
only in israel the teimonim do it al pi rambam
 
@DhoweedYaAgov i also try not to do issurei deoraisa
 
:P dont put me down man
 
6:09 AM
if you are serious about this, i don't know how you can only do things halfway like the rambam
@DhoweedYaAgov i'm opening your eyes. it's not pashut to just follow the rambam on everthing.
 
@DhoweedYaAgov and remember R' Meir was the greatest and most brilliant rav of his generation, the halacha doesn't follow him.
 
no your opening my eyes to regards to how i should be instead of how i am
nothing else
 
@ShmuelBrin except all the times he isn't named (stam mishna)
 
@ShmuelBrin hes not missing anything because it was 100years after abaye and rova
 
@DhoweedYaAgov perhaps. my get-rambamist-jews-to-be-inconsistent rating now remains at 100%
 
6:12 AM
in my environment and situation i cant be 100% rambam.
rambam said if you live in city doing wrong move to another, if you cant find another, move to the midbar
 
@DhoweedYaAgov So you adjust halacha somewhat? Act a little meikil? Sounds a lot like what you just told me about tosfot
 
@DhoweedYaAgov nuuuu
 
@ShmuelBrin @DhoweedYaAgov Rambam was born almost exactly 800 years after Abaye died.
 
@DoubleAA your right, i will bring this up to my rov and try not to get him mad and call me a meshugana
sorry a meshigana
 
Where Rambam got an 800 year old original copy of the Talmud is beyond me, considering parts of what we call bavli were added in by geonim, as noted in various rishonim.
 
6:14 AM
there is someone i know who doesnt eat any meat in america. he is a bit no all there but yea
 
@DoubleAA ok, so he may have been lacking things from ravina and r' ashi
 
@ShmuelBrin cant be because he says in hakdomo to the MT that we hold by ravina and r ashi
 
@ShmuelBrin I'm with you! Most of the Bavli is generally thought to be in place by around 500 and Rambam wrote MT around the year 1200.
 
@DoubleAA 1170-800=370. I think that's a bit before Ravina and R' Ashi. I didn't know that there were official texts of the Gemara from before them.
 
@DoubleAA thing is, there are ppl here who dont eat any meat and there is one guy who did full hishtahHawoyoh in the shul. both are not really there in the head. so when i say i do hishtahHawoyoh and kidoh and now im going to say i dont eat meat, the people will really thing im a mesugana.
 
6:18 AM
Ravina lived after 400
 
but i dont care if they do, i may as well be a meshugana to them it doesnt bother me for they are doing wrong. but i hate going through the entire process of saying why im going all rambam and mesoroh this and mesoroh that
 
@ShmuelBrin Mar bar R Ashi dies in 467.
@DhoweedYaAgov What, the fact that most people do one thing is irrelevant?
I know what the yahudim in bovel pronounce it as and I know what that small group of teimonim do, however it is not plausible for one group of teimon be right compared to all of teimon who prnounce it as a j. — DhoweedYaAgov yesterday
על אחת כמה וכמה
 
@DoubleAA sigh
i think comparing ashkenazi mesorah to teimoni mesorah is not a good thing
 
@DhoweedYaAgov I'd say it's complicated.
You're the one who's trying to stake out the simple position, and I'm just here to point out to you that it's complicated.
 
teimonim actually have a mesorah which has things in it that no other mesorah has and im pretty sure that changing loshon hagodosh is somethign they wouldnt do
 
6:25 AM
@DhoweedYaAgov But, what, Ashkenazim like changing lashon hagodhash? (no dagesh!)
 
lushon hakoydesh?
loshon hakOHdesh
 
@DhoweedYaAgov no one thinks they've changed. some have. (and not all ashkenazim speak that way)
 
thow and suv?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov so? you think someone did that one day for fun?
things change slowly. same could have happened to temonim and you'd be no wiser
 
no it was because the german language doesnt have a th sound
 
6:27 AM
@DhoweedYaAgov i know
more like the french and spanish language probably
german back then had a th IIRC
 
yea but you see that the minhogim of the teimonim are pretty on point with what the gemoroh states
why didnt those change?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov it's לְשוֹן הַקּוֹדֶש note the shva on the lamed, the segol on the daled, and the lack of dagesh in the daled.
@DhoweedYaAgov some did. what kind of shofar do they use?
(again, you make an absolute statement, and i show you how it's complicated.)
 
@DoubleAA im pretty sure that shofar minhag is before rambam and they still have minhogim which go against rambam. 60 or so
 
@DhoweedYaAgov so don't those minhagim go against the gemara? you said "the minhogim of the teimonim are pretty on point with what the gemoroh states"
 
Stam a question. What does a (purely rationalistic) Rambam following person do when he reads the Rambam trying to explain Torah according to Aristotle. Does he stay with "custom" or does he go against the Rambam?
 
6:31 AM
@ShmuelBrin You have to be more specific. Not everything Aristotle said is bupkis
 
@DoubleAA so the teimonim say the shofor enhances the misSwoh therefore they are going to stick with the shofor.
@DoubleAA i disagree but i am not teimoni and that is not my mesorah
 
@DhoweedYaAgov good. so they have 'changed' halacha from the talmud based on their custom
 
Note, Ashkenazim (especially Kabbala followers) can explain things "al pi sod". Do Deim don't believe in that.
 
@DoubleAA i think mori gafih talks bout it
 
@ShmuelBrin They just don't think the sod the ashkenazim talk about is the accurate sod. they don't think the torah doesn't have meaning.
i think
 
6:32 AM
@DoubleAA not everything, but it's not considered "muchrach" anymore.
@DoubleAA They believe in Kabbalah but believe we have the wrong one?
 
@ShmuelBrin Have you ever read Aristotle, or do you just hear him made fun of?
 
@DoubleAA or maybe their custom might have been older than gemoroh and the gemoroh paskend different than what they had
 
@DoubleAA mostly latter, though partly from non-Jewish sources
 
@DoubleAA therefore sticking to their original mesoroh even though the gemoroh paskens different.
 
@ShmuelBrin he.wikisource.org/wiki/… for instance
 
6:34 AM
@DoubleAA I thought the Rambam learns Maasei Merkava to be "metaphysics"
 
@DhoweedYaAgov and that couldn't have happened in ashkenaz? maybe ashkenaz was orginally seeded by people who move from israel and had yerushalmi minhagim
@ShmuelBrin What's kabbalah?
"Standard kabbalah" is a kind of metaphysics too
 
@DoubleAA doesnt seem so lest you bring a good example. at least teimonim have minhagim sticking with bavli, ashkenazim dont
 
it seems they still hold of sefer yetzira (at least dor daim. there could be other groups)
 
i dont
 
@DhoweedYaAgov it's mentioned in the bavli, and morcha gafich wrote extensively about it
 
6:37 AM
@DoubleAA doesnt mean its right. also who says its taht sefer yasSira.
@DoubleAA also the planetary system there is not like ours today
 
@DhoweedYaAgov fair enough. just pointing out that this is even a farther break from standard
@DhoweedYaAgov Saturn stopped existing?
 
yes :P
not to mention the bones and organs which are not real
organ that makes yousleep organ that makes you laugh or w/e
 
@DoubleAA For example, the famous Rambam which says that the planets aren't physical
You can explain it to mean "spiritual planets", yet I don't think that most Talmidei Harambam would like that explanation
 
@ShmuelBrin is that what aristotle held too? it seems they were both wrong.
 
@ShmuelBrin i think aristotle and people in his time believed the the planets werent physical
 
6:40 AM
though something none of us will ever touch isn't so meaningfully physical
 
@DoubleAA Don't know.
 
@ShmuelBrin we can accept our rabbonim to be wrong most people dont
 
@ShmuelBrin I think most talmidei harambam are willing to break with him on science. they think if the rambam were here today he'd laugh at what he used to think. somehting like that
 
thats the difference
wrong in science i mean
 
@DhoweedYaAgov Then how come you are so confident holding like his every psak (excluding science)?
@ShmuelBrin No one today really holds of the rambam's medicine (i think)
biology is a kind of science too
 
6:42 AM
because i hold that rambam had the best text of gemoroh and clearest view as to what the gemoroh actually meant compared to other rabbonim
rambam said maaseh breishit is natural science/ biology
 
@DhoweedYaAgov and your basis for all this is...the rambam's own words. how convincing.
 
well rambam holds by ban osher's sefer torah, and in that sefer torah haazinu is 67breaks compared to ashkenazic 70
and he said all sefer torahs who are not like ban oshers are posul
 
@DoubleAA btw this is a pretty standard theory in jewish history to explain why ashkenaz had so many more minhag conflicts with the bavli. it also explains certain things which are explicity like yerushalmi
@DhoweedYaAgov and ben naftali said all the torah's not lik his are posul
 
right, but there isnt any of his sefer torahs left i think for us to compare the 2 :P
rambam knew of both for sure, and he picked ban osher
ill stick with that
 
@DhoweedYaAgov i just checked. aleppo actually has 67
@DhoweedYaAgov that's not true. we have lots of his school's writings
 
6:46 AM
yea because the aleppo is ban oshers sefer torah
 
@DhoweedYaAgov it's his whole tanach
as a codex, not a sefer
 
there are pieces missing i think
 
@DhoweedYaAgov once again you are relying on the rambam's words that the rambam is right
don't claim ben asher as authority
 
give me a reason why we dont do hishtahHawoyoh?
and why rambam said to do it?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov we never did
@DhoweedYaAgov he was wrong
 
6:48 AM
pshat gamoroh says we do it
 
(you asked for an idea)
@DhoweedYaAgov where?
 
i said give me a reason not an idea
 
@DhoweedYaAgov i gave you one suggestion. there could be others
@DhoweedYaAgov where?
 
brochoth lamad dol
b
also in megilloh and brochoth 20 something
 
@DhoweedYaAgov those two aren't what you want
brachot 34 is the right one to quote
it says שוחה
what does that mean?
 
6:50 AM
i do want those
rambam also says shohHe
 
@DhoweedYaAgov ok go quote me them and then realize they don't support you
 
still pshat rambam to go on all 4s
 
no he says כורע
 
they if you learn it like me
no he says shohHeh
i checked up in mori gafihs MT
 
כריעה כיצד: המתפלל כורע חמש כריעות בכל תפילה ותפילה--בברכה ראשונה בתחילה ובסוף, ובהודיה בתחילה ובסוף. וכשגומר התפילה, כורע ופוסע שלוש פסיעות לאחוריו כשהוא כורע; ונותן שלום משמאל עצמו, ואחר כך מימין עצמו, ואחר כך מגביה ראשו מן הכריעה. וכשהוא כורע בארבע הכריעות, כורע בברוך; וכשהוא זוקף, זוקף בשם.
from mechon mamre
 
6:51 AM
shohHeh means general bowing then rambam just like the gemoroh says and these are the bowing
 
they're pretty good
now, you wanted to quote those other two gemaras which say כורע is on the knees. that's true
 
i know who they are
 
but the gemara says שוחה for tefilla. only the rambam says כורע
hence you don't need to quote the other two gemaras
have i answered your question​​​​‌​​​​​​​​​​​​s?
 
יג [יב] כָּל הַכְּרִיעוֹת הָאֵלּוּ--צָרִיךְ שֶׁיִּכְרַע בָּהֶן עַד שֶׁיִּתְפַּקְפְּקוּ כָּל חֻלְיוֹת שֶׁבַּשִּׁדְרָה, וְיֵעָשֶׂה כְּקֶשֶׁת; וְאִם שָׁחָה מְעַט וְצִעַר עַצְמוֹ, וְנִרְאָה כְּכוֹרֵעַ בְּכָל כּוֹחוֹ--אֵינוּ חוֹשֵׁשׁ.
שָׁחָה
 
@DhoweedYaAgov seriously? he makes it sound like שחה is not getting on your knees. "if you can't bow like your supposed to, just do שחה"
hence our gemara, using rambam's definition of שחה, supports common practice
 
6:58 AM
@DoubleAA no
he is saying bowing is on the knees
but a general bow is fine if you cant daven properly
 
Rambam indeed says that. Our gemara does not.
 
a general bow, a specific bow is not shohHeh
 
@DhoweedYaAgov ?
 
a specific bow is birkayim al apayim
 

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