When Gabriel visited Mary, she was, as is usual when meeting an angel, troubled by it:
In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. And h...
Why do people expect (a) God to fit into their ideas of what He should be like, morally or otherwise? (I already think I know the answer, secretly we all think we are the ultimate judge of morality, which is why we all know which laws it is ok for us to break)
I heard someone having a right old moan about getting a ticket for doing 29 in a 20 zone last week, and I managed to restrain myself from shouting that line from Liar Liar: "Quit breaking the law, *******!"
@JackDouglas Most of us can agree that callous disregard for others' lives is a bad thing; even while we all do it. (Ref. "The ones who walk away from Omelas".)
@JackDouglas Or if they're just far enough away, and the causal chain long enough, we can disregard our contribution to their misfortune. (Ref. the entire western world, most definitely including myself.)
The character of God. I don't particularly expect God to be kind, just, whatever .... I don't expect God to exist. That doesn't mean I can't form an opinon on the characters of various gods as expressed by their followers.
@JackDouglas It's a good phrase.
There is the line that most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. (I can't remember who said that, but it does contain a certain amount of truth.) But it's not the entire truth. Most gods are complex creatures (probably because they have many worshippers, each of whom have different perspectives).
Of course, but surely it is logical to expect that if there is a God, He is unlikely to be nice and cosy in exactly the way we'd like him to be, even if only because our small brains and 'breath-like' lifespans mean we probably have picked up some funny ideas about morality ourselves along the way?
I understand people who are taken aback by the God of the Bible (I often am), but not those who say "I refuse to believe in that God" as if his existence of otherwise somehow depends on their say so!
And I've said before that I'd rather like to be Liberal Christian, but I can't convince myself it's true. (Also, I'm somewhat wary of beliefs I like. I stayed a Witness for longer precisely because I was gay, and therefore distrusted my own reasons for leaving. It can be hard to explain that to people.)
@JackDouglas Well, I think what's happening there is actually a conflation of different definitions of the slightly slippery word believe (particularly in its form as a phrasal verb: believe in). I could say, perhaps, that I wouldn't reverence such a God.
@TRiG I can understand that if you mean you didn't want to be open to the accusation (even from yourself) that I was making above? ie "I wont believe in that God because it's not convenient"?
@TRiG ah yes, terminology again :)
that is quite a different thing and in my opinion not arrogant in the same way
@JackDouglas Precisely. But it's surprising how hard it can be to get that point across to some people.
@JackDouglas It is quite a different thing, at least in my mind and your mind, but .... I think you're not entirely wrong there. Some people are perfectly happy to say they believe things because they like them. And definitions can get very slippery in this area.
> A thing is not necessarily true because a man died for it.
Oscar Wilde.
And people who "believe" things while not knowing whether they're true. That's ... a different definition of belief than the one I'm used to. I know a woman who believes in reincarnation, because she finds the idea comforting. I don't know what to do with that sort of thing. My brain gives up on it.
@TRiG How long did they know you are gay before you left if you don't mind me asking? The associate minister at my last church has just come out. Then he wrote this (I haven't read it so fair warning you may find it offensive)
Still haven't worked out what I think
We left the church under something of a cloud which makes it all the more difficult to think rationally...
@JackDouglas ... a gay lifestyle. It would be very very difficult to explain, without a lot of context, why that phrase gives me pause. On the other hand, it's significantly better than the version with the definite article. Shall continue reading.
Hmm. Ends with a rather bald assertion. Not convincing to me, but then, I'm not the target audience.
@JackDouglas Well, nor am I. But he's Side B, which is tricky for me to get a hold on. I used to read his blog a fair bit when it was still active.
@JackDouglas Slacktivist is one of the best writers I know. His blog is a simply astounding resource. (He's particularly famous for his analysis of Left Behind, which isn't just a snarky response, but a proper, thorough, meaningful, and thought-out, multi-post epic which has been going on for years.)
@JackDouglas There is a community there, it that there are regular commenters whose names would be recognised, but the actual posts are all written by Fred Clark himself. He used to write for a newspaper, and he's been blogging on faith, politics, and literature for a very long time now.
When Gabriel visited Mary, she was, as is usual when meeting an angel, troubled by it:
In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary. And h...
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