The Whiteboard

@JimmyHoffa I deleted that, it was cross posted on the Workplace, where it got an answer, so I deleted our copy and then we migrated the Workplace version here. And then I closed it as a dupe...

Rachel

@YannisRizos I made an edit to the Workplace version just before it got migrated, so its now more workplace-oriented and I'm not sure if its asking the same thing anymore

Thomas Owens

WTF is going on with that question?

I'm really confused now.

Rachel

@ThomasOwens The question got posted in two places. I saw the Workplace version, so edited it to be more on-topic for the Workplace. Almost immediately after I edited, it got migrated to programmers, and the programmers copy got closed/deleted, and the workplace copy closed as a duplicate

Only the edit made it not really a duplicate anymore

Thomas Owens

OK. I thought it got migrated Prog->Workplace. I was totally not getting anything going on. It makes more sense now.

Yannis Rizos

3:42 PM

@Rachel The edit made it NC though...

> So basically I can just proclaim myself as a software engineer based on experience and product?

Rachel

@YannisRizos I figured I'd let the workplace.SE crowd decide because I was trying to make it focus more on if you could claim a job title that represented the work you did, but not your actual job title

Yannis Rizos

@Rachel Waiting confirmation from Workplace mods for that.

Rachel

Which seems like a valid Workplace.SE question

ok

Thomas Owens

Workplace has a dupe of that question alread.

Rachel

Ok, perhaps we should move it back and let them close as a dup, then undelete the programmers copy and close as a dup here? That would give the OP the answers it sounds like he's looking for

Yannis Rizos

3:47 PM

@Rachel Why??? The end result will be the same, the question will be closed

@Rachel Also the original version of the question seemed like a straight dupe of the one it's closed now, please don't change the intent of a question when you're editing it.

Rachel

@YannisRizos The purpose of doing that would be to provide the OP an answer, while teaching him why his questions were closed

Yannis Rizos

@Rachel Well, you can already do that by pointing to the workplace dupe in a comment

Rachel

There were multiple questions being asked, and my edit to the workplace copy of the question removed the programmer-specific questions and tried to focus on the workplace-specific questions

You guys can do what you want, was just voicing my opinion :)

Yannis Rizos

@Rachel Yeah, don't do that, at least not while the question is still open.

Rachel

@YannisRizos Well someone asked in the workplace chat if anything could be done to make the question constructive, so I was doing my best to make it a question that could stay open on the workplace

Thomas Owens

3:50 PM

At this point, it just seems like a massive clusterfuck. This is a good reason why people shouldn't suggest other sites in comments - it leads to duplicates and edit attempts at both sites and other messy things.

Yannis Rizos

@Rachel Understood and appreciated. But let the question get closed first.

Rachel

... why would I wait for a question to get closed to edit it and make it constructive?

Its easier to prevent it from getting closed than to get it reopened

Yannis Rizos

@Rachel Because 1) it might not get closed, 2) the closure justifies changing the intent and 3) to not mess with answers.

Thomas Owens

@Rachel To prevent answers.

It gets messy to deal with answered questions. It's best to close quick and then clean up.

Rachel

I'm confused.... it was already going to get closed because of the way it was written... why shouldn't I edit it to stop it from getting closed?

Thomas Owens

3:52 PM

Reopening should be easier with the review queues. If that doesn't work, try chat and/or flags and/or meta.

Rachel

I don't think it had any answers easier

Thomas Owens

We want to close it ASAP to prevent answers.

Yannis Rizos

@Rachel Edit, but do not change the question's intent while it's still open. Even if it has 4 close votes.

Thomas Owens

Once closed, that's when you can do radical edits to save questions.

Rachel

@ThomasOwens If you say so... but I still don't understand becausae if I edit it to make it constructive then we want answers

Thomas Owens

3:53 PM

@Rachel If it's open, someone writing an answer might not see your edits.

That just causes headaches - they might get down votes, flags, negative comments on an answer that answered a different question.

We don't want that to happen.

Yannis Rizos

@Rachel Of course, if your edit is a good one we want answers. That's why we... re-open ;P

Rachel

It just seems worse to wait for downvotes and closure, then edit and try to get a negatively scored question reopened, than it is to edit to make it constructive before it gets so many downvotes and close votes (only had 2 close and down votes when I started my edit)

Oh well, do whatever you want with the question(s) :)

@YannisRizos Why are you making such unconstructive edits? :p programmers.stackexchange.com/revisions/174815/3

Yannis Rizos

@Rachel It's the original version of the question.

Rachel

Just giving you a hard time :)

Yannis Rizos

As always ;P

Rachel

4:02 PM

Since your edit re-implemented all the bad parts of the question

Yannis Rizos

it wasn't that bad...

We were going to migrate it to Programmers anyway, it wasn't going to stay closed on the Workplace.

Rachel

@YannisRizos What's the link to the workplace question you said would be a dup asking about if you could claim a job title that wasn't yours based on your responsibilities?

Yannis Rizos

10

Q: Should I describe myself by my current position or my desired position?

I currently am a programmer in job title and largely what I do. However, I am applying for UX/UI/ect Design (and front end development) positions. My current skills are important for the positions I'm looking for, but "programmer" just sounds like a poor match. I really don't want to come off as...

Jimmy Hoffa

I can't figure out where the question went so question, did he get an answer telling him that most people expect a software engineer to be an experienced coder or did people just skirt the question leaving him the vaguest sense that he's a developer?

CEO's running around calling themselves SE's the mind boggles, hope I don't run into him

Rachel

@YannisRizos I don't think that's a duplicate....

Yannis Rizos

4:04 PM

@JimmyHoffa The question is now closed as a duplicate of:

24

Q: What are the key differences between software engineers and programmers?

What are the key differences between software engineers and programmers?

job-title job-definition

@Rachel That's the question workplace mods suggested as a dupe.

Rachel

Its asking if you should call yourself by your current title or your desired title when job hunting. The other question was asking if you could claim a job title you didn't have for the past 8 years when it represented your responsilities

@YannisRizos Alright

Yannis Rizos

0

Q: How does a browser determine that a script has run for too long?

How does a browser determine that a script has run for too long ? Is it actually configurable through some advanced settings ?

web-development javascript browser web-browser

Just search a bit before you ask, mate, it isn't that hard... <sigh>

Jim G.

5:30 PM

@YannisRizos: Is @Geek a rookie? Or a spammer?

Thomas Owens

5:42 PM

@JimG. Hmm?

Jimmy Hoffa

5:54 PM

He does have a lot of decently scored questions, if he's a spammer the community seems to think his questions are valuable (though lots of them seem pretty basic and based on "I heard a programmer talking about this, what is it?" questions)

Jimmy Hoffa

6:18 PM

Why is this room tagged "my-code-is-compiling" ? Just curious heh

Some people have such boring generated gravatars. Mine's awesome, proof that I have the best e-mail.

user20683

6:50 PM

@JimmyHoffa obligatory XKCD: xkcd.com/303

user20683

it goes back to the site's origin as programming lifestyle site rather than a conceptual software questions site

user20683

@YannisRizos that numbers game guy clearly has never heard of Linear Programming

user20683

or he's just incredibly lazy

user20683

or both

Yannis Rizos

Strange! I try several problems, & only post the ones here which I find difficult. As I said in the question, I have no idea on how to solve such game based questions, so I don't know where to start! — 7Aces 2 mins ago

user20683

6:55 PM

@YannisRizos it

Yannis Rizos

-11

Q: What is the C operator >>?

I was recently going through a piece of code written in C when I came across some unrecognized syntax - i=i>>1; I'm not very proficient in the language. I'd like to know the meaning & the function of the given syntax and ,if possible, it's equivalent in other languages like C++ &...

c syntax

He's not a big fan of research, apparently...

user20683

gets his beating stick

user20683

yeah

user20683

I suspect kid

Yannis Rizos

Yeap, he says he's 16 in his profile. Not really an excuse though.

user20683

6:59 PM

@YannisRizos it never really is

Jimmy Hoffa

7:20 PM

@WorldEngineer I've never heard of Linear Programming, in fact it really wouldn't be a stretch to say most developers haven't

Also @WorldEngineer as an undergrad calling someone else a kid is a bit pot calling kettle, there's likely many things lots of others here know that you have zero clues about and they could just as easily call you a kid for being unaware of

So a little sympathy, after all that 'kid' isn't far off from yourself

Yannis Rizos

7:38 PM

-1

Q: Number Game Algorithm

Problem Link - http://www.iarcs.org.in/inoi/2011/zco2011/zco2011-1b.php The task is to find the maximum score you can get in the game. Such problems, based on games, where you have to simulate, predict the result, or obtain the maximum possible score always seem to puzzle me. I can do it with r...

algorithms

@WorldEngineer He updated the question, I must admit I didn't expect that...

@JimmyHoffa Hm? Not having heard of LP wasn't the problem here, the lack of any effort was. And the kid corrected that, by updating his question...

user20683

@JimmyHoffa About a decade actually. I'm not what you'd call a traditional student.

user20683

though I suppose I'm still young in some sense

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer good, all of the @JonPurdys out there have started giving me a complex with their way-too-smart-for-their-age shit (seriously, I must be so dumb). Glad to hear you're not one of them

user20683

and for the record, I know a good number of teens who ask mature, thoughtfully written questions that show research rather than the child-like "I have problem...solution, gimme!"

user20683

@JimmyHoffa JonPurdy's Gravatar gives me nightmares

user20683

7:57 PM

Linear Programming is something that mostly gets hit in Business and Industrial Engineering.

user20683

traditional CS might touch it in an algorithms class

user20683

maybe

Jimmy Hoffa

8:10 PM

dunno, no degree here; I started out the 16 year old dingbat asking bad stupid questions like the above years ago heh

Yannis Rizos

@JimmyHoffa Nothing stupid about that question, it's actually a very good question. And it turns out he had already done some effort to solve the problem, he just didn't think of telling us about it.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa I completed the coursework for a comparative religion degree at roughly the normal age then decided that I wanted to make things for a living and not work in retail/coffee forever

user20683

even if said things are CRUD

user20683

though to be fair, the degree in that was worth a fair bit. It taught me to do research, to argue, to be able to read dry material without passing out, to write long papers without rambling, and to be tactful (most of the time) about contentious subjects.

Jimmy Hoffa

See, I learned all of that from my own religious training in corporotocracy. Writing 90 page software docs and holding meetings with 15 people and explain why half of them are wrong rather than tearing my hair out and smacking them with a red swingline

user20683

8:25 PM

I've spent 6 years in retail, that helped with the arrogance of youth.

Jimmy Hoffa

Though now that I've gotten bored of CRUD I do wish I had done the degree route so I wouldn't be befuddled by my attempts to do more computer sciency stuff in my off-time. I spent years believing math had no use to software, man how wrong I was..

user20683

@JimmyHoffa as someone who bootstrapped my way through math, I feel your pain

Jimmy Hoffa

I'm somewhere in that process.. somewhere between trying to avoid it and learning some of it on accident playing with FP

user20683

@JimmyHoffa I've tried a number of times to grok Haskell

user20683

still working on it

Jimmy Hoffa

8:31 PM

Did you read LYAH?

user20683

most of it

user20683

I find Learn Haskell the Hard Way more my thing

Jimmy Hoffa

Never saw that one

user20683

it's specifically aimed at experienced imperative/OO programmers but it's denser and terser than LYAH

user20683

I also have Real World Haskell

Jimmy Hoffa

8:34 PM

The crazy thing about haskell is the levels. After you get over the first hump, I literally couldn't sleep for most of a week when I first started learning haskell because everytime I closed my eyes I had my brain kept trying to solve problems using syntax it didn't even understand. Dreaming in code sucks, dreaming in a code you have no comprehension of at all is even worse

user20683

better than dreaming in whitespace or piet

Jimmy Hoffa

after you get over the first hump though, there's a lot you can do before having to tackle the next. The next being basically the typeclassopedia in my mind. I still haven't force myself to read it because I can tell it's going to eat my sleep like first starting haskell did

user20683

MLs in general are crazy like that

user20683

Algebraic Type Systems

user20683

insanity on a plate

Jimmy Hoffa

8:37 PM

Yeah, though the bits that I've seen they don't get so crazy with the type theory in the other MLs as with haskell. f# was easy after picking up haskell, and understanding okasaki which is written in sml I believe was pretty simple as well

Do any of the other languages with an HM type system have type classes?

Now I'm curious

user20683

@JimmyHoffa OCaml has objects but I don't know about type classes. I think Mercury does

Jimmy Hoffa

ah based on prolog I could imagine so.

user20683

Mercury is like the challenge language for me

user20683

8:57 PM

there's also ATS

Jimmy Hoffa

9:13 PM

Interesting, never looked at that one, first thing I see it mention about being able to perform comparably to C++ commonly piques my interest. I've read the same of OCaml but also read OCaml has some serious issues that makes it a pain. Been pondering poking into it though all the same.

user20683

9:26 PM

@JimmyHoffa http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Functional-Programming-Calculus-Mathematics/dp/0486478831/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352236845&sr=8-1&keywords=dover+lambda+calculus

This looks intriguing

user20683

acm.wustl.edu/functional/haskell.php

user20683

also that

Jimmy Hoffa

@WorldEngineer Have you learned the SKI combinatory calculus system yet?

Yannis Rizos

why would questions not about coding be posted on Stack Overflow? That seems to imply that they are by definition off-topic per the faq — Jeff Atwood 4 mins ago

user20683

@JimmyHoffa not yet

Jimmy Hoffa

9:42 PM

@WorldEngineer it's very simple, just 3 functions en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKI_combinator_calculus , but the way the application works is pretty neat and worth learning to understand the idea of combinators, concatenative programming languages, and at the end it is how I came to understand lambda calculus

After I memorized the simple functions it lists on the wikipedia page from puzzling over them one afternoon, I kept playing them over and over in my head for about a week trying to understand how the interplay worked until it just clicked. I think I was scribbling them over again on a napkin at a bar when it finally clicked. It's likely easier for people who have more math practice than I

user20683

@JimmyHoffa worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs

Jimmy Hoffa

Just bring it up because you mentioned that FP through lambda calculus book, learning a combinatory logic system seems to be a right of passage for haskellers, as noted at willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html as the "combinatory haskell programmer"

hahaha wth is that

user20683

@JimmyHoffa it's a game for understanding untyped lambda calculus

Jimmy Hoffa

Yeah that's about right, and possibly the awesomest explanation for it I've ever seen

user20683

I do regret not going for a math degree sometimes

user20683

9:53 PM

oh well, there's always post bacc/grad school

user20683

in all honesty I could probably reverse engineer a math degree

Jimmy Hoffa

heh that's what trying to learn haskell feels like to me, though for all my trying I have yet to manage to create the Y combinator on my own in any of the fp languages I've played with so I think I'm doing a poor job of it.

user20683

@JimmyHoffa yeah but at least you're trying

user20683

and that's ultimately what counts

user20683

anyway, time to change locations

user20683

10:00 PM

physics at 5:30 and I need coffee for that

user20683

subject = fun

user20683

instructor makes subject != fun

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