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6:41 AM
Does the official kvpy mock test on their website not show marks? I just attempted it and at the end of 3 hrs it just showed the summary of attempted questions and upon clicking "next" it just went back to the login page where I could attempt the test again.
 
@JohnRennie Hi!
 
@Wolgwang Hi :-)
 
Is there a physical reason why moment of inertia of a hollow hemisphere is equal to the same of a hollow sphere?
 
Is it?
 
@JohnRennie Hmm yes.
 
6:58 AM
What axis is the MOI of the hemispherical shell about?
 
@JohnRennie Perpendicular axis to the base.
 
Aha, OK. Consider this:
The MOI of a spherical shell about its diameter is ²⁄₃MR². Yes?
 
Yes
 
MOIs are additive, so if we divide the sphere into two equal hemispheres then the MOIs of the hemispheres will be half the MOI of the whole sphere. Yes?
 
@JohnRennie Yes
 
7:06 AM
So the MOI of the hemisphere is ¹⁄₂ ²⁄₃ M R², which we can rearrange to ²⁄₃ (¹⁄₂M) R²
And you can probably see where this is going now. Yes?
 
@JohnRennie Ah! moment :-)
 
:-)
 
This is also why a solid cylinder has the same MOI as a disc
 
Yes
 
since a cylinder is just discs stacked together
 
7:52 AM
@JohnRennie Why are there 3 blanks for zero error here?
 
You mean here?
 
Yes
 
Don't know. Maybe they mean you to open the calipers then close them again to do a zero measurement and repeat this three times.
 
@JohnRennie Is zero error=+7 ok?
 
Do you mean when you closed the gauge with nothing in it the gauge read +7?
 
7:58 AM
@JohnRennie Well I don't have the instrument I am supposed to enter imaginary numbers :-/
 
There are two separate things:
1. the zero offset
2. the error in the zero offset
The offset means when you close the gauge with nothing in it the gauge doesn't read zero. For example suppose it read +7, that means when you make a measurement you need to subtract +7 from your reading to get the true value. OK so far?
 
@JohnRennie Ok -7 is zero correction?
 
Yes i.e. you need to add -7 to all your readings,
But suppose you opened and closed the gauge three times, and you got readings +7, +8 and +6.
The average is +7, so your zero correction would be -7, but there is an error of about 1 in the offset.
So suppose you did a reading and got +1234, then your true value would be:
(1234 ± 1) - (7 ± 1)
i.e. 1227 ± 2
 
Ok
 
@Wolgwang if you're trying to fake some numbers just for the record, a zero error of +7 is surely ok. Often the error is even upto numbers like +60.
 
8:06 AM
So I wonder if there are three spaces because you should do the zero reading three times to try and assess the error in the zero reading.
 
Linear scale reading is a synonym for pitch scale reading?
 
Don't know. Sorry :-(
 
@Wolgwang afaik yes
 
8:31 AM
Ok
 
 
2 hours later…
10:11 AM
@JohnRennie This is MOI around an axis passing along with the base?
 
@Wolgwang About this axis.
i.e. if you take a second copy on the same axis and stack it on top of the first copy you get a spherical shell.
 
@JohnRennie MOI around an axis passing along base is $\dfrac{MR^2}{3}$?
 
@Wolgwang Remember that M is the mass of the whole sphere. the mass of half the sphere is ¹⁄₂M.
 
@Wolgwang *M is the mass of hemisphere 😅
 
If you are writing the mass of the hemisphere as M then the mass of the whole sphere is 2M, so the MOI of the whole sphere is ²⁄₃(2M)R².
 
10:22 AM
Ok
Is this wrong?
 
I think there is misprint in the question because it says "a horizontal axis passing through point P" but it shows an axis passing through point O.
Oh wait, I think it starts with the horizontal axis through O and then uses the parallel axis theorem to switch to an axis through P.
@Wolgwang What do you think might be wrong?
 
@JohnRennie Shouldn't $I_o=\dfrac{MR^2}{3}$
 
No.
 
@JohnRennie Around this axis MOI=$\dfrac{2MR^2}{3}$ then by perpendicular axis theorem $2I_o=\dfrac{2MR^2}{3}$ , no?
 
It isn't using the perpendicular axis theorem.
In my original diagram I had a vertical axis and I sliced the sphere horizontally to produce the two hemispheres. Yes?
20 mins ago, by John Rennie
user image
 
10:39 AM
@JohnRennie Yes
 
Suppose instead I slice the sphere like this:
i.e. I slice it in a plane through the axis of rotation.
@Wolgwang OK so far?
 
Ok
 
We'll call the mass of the sphere 2M so the mass of each hemisphere is M.
Before we slice the MOI of the whole sphere is ²⁄₃(2M)R². Yes?
 
Yes
 
And since we are slicing into two equal halves the MOI of each half about that horizonatl axis must be ¹⁄₂ × ²⁄₃(2M)R² = ²⁄₃MR². Yes?
 
10:46 AM
Yes
 
So the MOI of the hemisphere about that horizontal axis through its open face is the same as the MOI about a vertical axis. Both MOIs are ²⁄₃MR²
And that's how the question gets the MOI about the axis through O.
It is not using the perpendicular axis theorem. It is is using the calculation above.
 
Ok thanks :-)
 
:-)
 
11:14 AM
@JohnRennie If sum of any two vectors is 0. Let the vectors be OA & OC. OA makes angle 37 with X axis & OC makes angle 45 with Y axis. Can we say Resultant of OC & OA is 0 ?
 
@S.M.T The only way two vectors can sum to zero is if they are equal and opposite. That is, they must have equal magnitude and point in opposite directions.
So your vectors OA and OC cannot sum to zero.
 
K sir.
 
11:57 AM
@Wolgwang the perpendicular axis theorem is applicable only for laminar bodies i.e 2D bodies, be careful. See the derivation on wiki, then it should be fairly obvious why the theorem doesn't work here.
 
 
1 hour later…
1:17 PM
Anyone please try it , I am getting my answer as 3J^2/2M^2g :(
 
1:51 PM
@YashAgrawal me too :/
is it not a?
 
@satan29 You considered rotation about end A right ?
 
yeah
 
no it's given (c) instead
I considered the same , but if there is suppose no friction then the end could move right ?
 
hmm true
Ill try this later properly
 
I guess question want us to find that h , considering no friction
@satan29 ok
 
2:01 PM
@YashAgrawal ah I did the same question yesterday I got it wrong too, although I was getting (b).. my logic was that the linear velocity of the com just after the impulse is simply given by J = mv, so taking into consideration the rotation is irrelevant, although that is probably wrong. Why are you taking rotation into consideration in the first place..?
 
but rod would rotate for sure
 
yes agreed
 
and without considering rotation how you wrote kinetic energy ?
 
The linear acceleration is = $g$. So simply 2gh = v^2 where v = J/m no?
 
but there is normal too
 
2:06 PM
oops yes. If the rod was on a smooth floor it would tend to rotate about it's com, but since it can't rotate about its com at first there is a normal impulse too.
 
umm , didn't get what you said
here we are also considering smooth floor I guess
even if rod is rotating about end A , it can still be said rotating about cm (in it's translatory frame)
 
@YashAgrawal what do you mean by this?
@YashAgrawal yes I was just trying to explain my rough idea why I realised why my solution was wrong, I didn't mean to frame it that way.
 
I mean if we sit on cm as a translatory observer , whole body would still seem rotating
@AshishAhuja though if whole rod were to be in air , your solution seems correct
 
well tbh I'm only getting more confused. I do agree that the body would still seem like it's rotating in the com frame, that's for sure. But yeah I'm still a bit unsure as to why my solution fails.
what exactly did you do?
 
well if you are considering rod to be still in touch with table after getting impulse , you wanna know why your soln fails ?
 
2:16 PM
because the normal also exerts an impulse?
 
no need of impulse
simply acceleration of cm in y direction would be given by net external force in y direction
 
ah yes I understand.
 
so you are neglecting effect of normal if you are considering g as the acceleration of cm
 
yup, got it.
 
But I'm unsure whether rod would go entirely in air or will be in contact with table :(
 
2:20 PM
how did you solve using rotation? You conserved angular momentum about end A and then conserved energy?
 
yes
IW = JL
then mgh = 1/2(I)(W)^2
 
why mgh = 1/2 I w^2..? The rod would keep rotating in air, shouldn't you only equate the linear KE to mgh?
 
while doing in practically with a pen , if I give the pen less impulse it remains intact with the floor but if I give it more ,it just fly off my head xD
@AshishAhuja there is nothing as linear or rotational KE
it's just kinetic energy
 
Yes I know, I was trying to express that the rod would keep rotating so at the highest point all it's energy wouldn't have been converted to PE no?
i.e w about com would still remain same, so you should do 1/2 m v_com^2 = mgh?
@YashAgrawal I'm assuming by I here you meant MOI about end A
i.e I = ML^2/3
 
By work energy theorem , ∆KE = work done by all forces , so here only mg do the work and initial kinetic energy is given by 1/2(I)(w)^2 and final is zero
w about cm ? how it come into picture ?
 
2:28 PM
doing that gets me $$h = \frac{9J^2}{8M^2g}$$ so that still doesn't match the options :-/
@YashAgrawal do you agree or not that at it's highest point the rod will keep rotating?
 
you did what ?
@AshishAhuja no , i think rod will stop at highest point
 
@YashAgrawal From JL = Iw, I get $w = 3J/ML$, then using $1/2 \times m \times (wL/2)^2 = mgh$ I got the $h$ above.
 
but how/why you did that ?
I got same w
 
@YashAgrawal why? Once it's in air there is no torque about about the com to stop the rotation.
@YashAgrawal because I don't believe the rod will stop rotating at it's highest point. I remember a youtube video which did a bullet block experiment, let me find it.
 
I thought we are considering rotation about end A , are we not ?
 
2:33 PM
@YashAgrawal that is only to figure out w after the impulse. Once the rod is in the air rotation about A is going to become incredibly complicated I guess because the torque about A once the rod is in the air is non-zero.
 
you are considering whole rod is in air after getting impulse ?
 
eventually it will be, I am not sure whether it will be in air just after the impulse or after a finite amount of time.
actually now that you mention it it is not obvious whole rod will be in air...
everything I've written here assumes that it would be in air.
 
When you have found w about about end A just after getting impulse , and that means end A would like to go towards table , no ?
 
tbh I'm confused as well.. and since I'm not getting the wrong answer anyway maybe whatever I'm doing is horribly wrong. I don't know :(
 
I'm considering rotation like this
 
2:39 PM
I was considering something like this where the rod goes flying. You're probably right in considering the rotation where the rod doesn't fly though.
 
but there is no obstruction in it , in path of rotation
 
obstruction?
 
I mean table
block is just on air (along the plane of rotation)
 
yes yes. It isn't the same case. But given a very large impulse J, the rod would go flying right?
 
You can try it with a low impulse (with a pen maybe) , you will see pen goes same way as in my image
 
2:44 PM
yes I agree. But with a big impulse it would go flying. Maybe the answer is the same in both cases.
I don't think I can help, it's like the blind leading the blind here :D Maybe we should wait for JR
 
And the point is , by considering that I'm getting answer (3J^2/2M^2g) already greater than the given answer
 
wait a second
w = 3j/ml
 
@AshishAhuja lol Yes I guess
@AshishAhuja right
btw you found it in kvpy paper right ?
 
ok no nothing sorry ignore :D
@YashAgrawal yes
 
in official paper ?
 
2:47 PM
yes.
 
can you state the year please
 
2017 19th november paper
 
kvpy physics part 2 made me realize my physics is not good :(
 
question 93
 
ok thanks
 
2:49 PM
@YashAgrawal yes I used to always think my physics was the strongest subject, turns out it's not :D I found kvpy chem a breeze, the math/phy were relatively much tougher than the chem I guess
btw have you given the mock test yet?
 
Yes chem was easier
No
 
I guess it's just a previous year paper
 
hmm probably is, that question you had asked 2 days ago I think was there in the mock.
 
Which section you are thinking of attempting in section 2 ?
 
2:52 PM
phy chem
 
@AshishAhuja Oops 😬
 
you?
 
same
maths seems even more scary
 
yup.
@JohnRennie hi, are you free for a question?
 
Had you all given the SA exam?
 
2:53 PM
I hadn't.
 
@AshishAhuja Hi :-) Yes I'm free for about 20 minutes while my lunch is cooking.
 
2 hours ago, by Yash Agrawal
user image
could you have a look at this then?
 
@Wolgwang @YashAgrawal What about you?
 
@Wolgwang I had (though not prepared even slightly) , didn't got qualified (got around 42-43 marks)
 
@YashAgrawal You were close to cut off atleast :-/
 
2:56 PM
Let me draw a quick diagram.
 
You gave ?
 
@YashAgrawal Does the chemistry section contains 12th class organic questions? :-/
 
@JohnRennie why can't the plank go flying?
 
@YashAgrawal I will...
 
@Wolgwang obviously :( (lost marks there )
 
2:58 PM
KVPY got postponed ???
 
@Wolgwang huh? It's on Nov 7
 
Even though there is no official announcement from IISc....
 
@AshishAhuja This is what I think the question means:
This is a side view, so we hit the end of the plank upwards so it rotates upwards about its end.
It rotates until the COM has risen a distance h.
 
tbh I'm not 100% convinced that this is what the question means, but can you solve it further because this is not giving the answer either?
 
What do you think the question means?
 
3:03 PM
@JohnRennie that's what I considered , but can't the end that is in contact with ground slide on the surface ?
 
@JohnRennie maybe it goes flying, but that's irrelevant; my interpretation can be wrong. Could you show the next steps if possible?
 
@YashAgrawal I guess we are meant to assume the upwards motion is quite small so the left end of the plank stays roughly in the same place.
Well at the apex of the motion the PE of the plank has increased by mgh, and the KE is zero because the plank is momentarily stationary.
 
@JohnRennie If that's the case , I am getting 3J^2/2M^2g as the answer
 
Oh wait, there is both angular and linear KE.
 
3:08 PM
@JohnRennie Isn't it pure rotation ?
 
No, because the COM is moving upwards. Suppose immediately after the impact the angle is rotating with angular velocity ω, then the COM has an upwards velocity ¹⁄₂Lω.
 
..so it does go flying?
 
So there is a linear KE of ¹⁄₂m(¹⁄₂Lω)² and an angular KE of ¹⁄₂Iω²
And I = ... erm ... ¹⁄₃mL² ?
 
@JohnRennie about an end of the rod, yes.
 
So the total energy is ¹⁄₈mL²ω² + ¹⁄₆mL²ω²
⁷⁄₂₄L²ω² = gh
Hmm, this doesn't look as if it's going to end nicely ...
 
3:14 PM
Sir in it wouldn't the KE of rod be simply 1/2(mL^2/3)(w)^2 ?
 
Are you thinking the rod is sliding horizontally on the table top?
 
no , not for now
 
Hmm. Maybe it is just the rotational KE: So ¹⁄₆mL²ω² = mgh
Then J = Iω = ¹⁄₃mL²ω
 
yes , even if you consider KE of Cm + rotation energy about CM , there MOI would change so energy would still come same
 
No, sorry, the angular impulse is LJ
 
3:18 PM
yes
 
J = ¹⁄₃mLω
 
got same
 
And that's wrong?
I'm out of time I'm afraid. My lunch is ready now.
 
if we proceed that way to get h , yes answer is coming out wrong
@JohnRennie No problem sir , have your lunch :)
 
both the approaches give the wrong answer. Thanks, we can continue this tomorrow.
 
3:22 PM
@JohnRennie wouldn't you take dinner ? (lunch in night ? )
 
he's in the uk
 
Ohh yes sorry , I completely forgot time difference :D
 
@YashAgrawal if you don't mind me asking, how are you doing in the past year kvpy papers? I've been getting 60-65, but I get a bit scared because usually more than half of that is from only chem.
 
@AshishAhuja well I'm attempting papers in bits and pieces (because my revision/syllabus is not completed) , so no idea , but one thing for sure I'm hardly able to get 10/20 in physics section 2 :(
@AshishAhuja Can you tell is there good no. of questions from s,p,d,f blocks ?
 
ah ok. yeah there was one paper which I thought I was acing and I attempted 8/10 question in phy sec 2, but lol in the end I got 3.5 marks in phy sec 2 :-|
 
3:29 PM
kind of same happened with me :/
 
@YashAgrawal there are question but usually the logical ones, plus stuff you just naturally pick up. I haven't done any of those chapter properly either except p block and I've been able to correctly solve >80% of those questions, although many were just educated guesses.
 
well it's good then :)
do you think kvpy will postpone ?
 
it would be a big surprise to me if they actually do.
 
me too , but it would be good I guess
My syllabus would atleast be completed then
 
there are many bits and pieces of mine that are incomplete as well, but the vast majority of them you can still solve so it's never too big an issue I guess.
 
3:37 PM
Yes , time constraint will also haunt less, if there is less syllabus to target
 
I don't think they would conduct it before boards exam if it is postponed. 🤔
 
not for SA
@Wolgwang You are in 11th right ?
 
Yes
@YashAgrawal What?
 
how Boards exams will affect kvpy SA
 
I'm sure they can arrange for translations to be made available by Nov 7, if the need actually arises.
 
3:42 PM
NVM I presumed that they will conduct the exam for everyone. I am overthinking IG.
 
there was literally a question in my school preboards which was identical to one in the kvpy official mock, so that was a bit surprising to me lol :O
 
@AshishAhuja You're in dummy or normal school ?
 
dummy, but I need to do the projects/give exams and even the practicals.
 
Though it didn't matter because corona made line between them very thin :)
 
ah yes :)
 
3:45 PM
@AshishAhuja Yes me too giving school exams ;/
If you don't mind , which coaching you are in ?
 
I went to school for the first time after 10th like 2 months ago. Although surely covid wasn't a good thing, it made my life much easier.
@YashAgrawal self-study for phy/math, I take help from someone for chem.
I have my computer exam tomorrow.
 
@AshishAhuja self study from what ? books ? yt ?
 
main source is books
 
Had you started prep before 10th ?
 
no I started halfway through 11th lol. I spent the first half playing video games :D you?
 
3:49 PM
no I only come to know about JEE full form by the end of 10th :)
 
ah :)
 
@AshishAhuja your study method seems pretty rare lol
 
maybe it is lol
 
but it's must faster I guess
 
ok I think I'm gonna go sleep soon. Nice talking to you, bye.
 
 
2 hours later…
5:39 PM
@JohnRennie This is what I thought too, but this gives the wrong answer
 
5:58 PM
@YashAgrawal I think I am onto something now
In the absence of friction, the other end of the rod will slide along the table. It has to be the case for the COM to move perfectly vertically
So now I'm trying to locate the position of the IAOR, so that I can write the Ke of the rod as 1/2 I(IAOR) W^2
it will be somewhere along the vertical line through A. (outside the rod)
 
Yes , that's what I thought is happening
 
Im working out the exact calculation, you can try it to. Set up a coordinate system, find the coordinates of A and COM, differentiate them to get the velcoity vectors
A has horizontal velocity, C has vertical
 
For calculating initial KE , wouldn't the IAOR be just end A ?
 
so the IAOR will simply be on the intersection point of the vertical line through A and horizontal line through C
 
yes I guess
would end A have any initial velocity after it had just got impulse ?
I mean as soon as we have given the impulse , if we see through cm frame , it won't have any horizontal velocity
 
6:09 PM
hmm KE as a function of theta (angle from the horizontal) is
$$ML^2/24 (1+3cos^2(\theta))$$
and it ofc gives $ML^2/6$ at theta =0 :/
 
now when cm velocity becomes zero , will rod still have some angular velocity ?
 
6:32 PM
Well inital energy is $ML^2/6 w^2$ and final energy is $Mgh$ for sure. I guess we are not getting $w$ as a function of $J$ properly
@YashAgrawal $Vc=wl/2 cos(\theta)$
 
@satan29 theta is which angle ?
 
what you are saying is possible, but it means $theta=90$ which then means $h$ simply is l
This is certainly possible, it will depend on the impulse.The pen completes a full circle in a sense.
@YashAgrawal from the horizontal
 
It can't happen before theta = 90 ?
 
then cos theta /= 0, so Vc=0 implies w=0.
 
$Vc=wl/2 cos(\theta)$ , Can you explain how you wrote it ?
how Vc = 0 implies w = 0 ?
 
6:39 PM
fix a coordinate system. The y coordinate of the COM is simply $l/2 sin(\theta)$
So,$\dot{y}= l/2 cos(\theta) \dot{\theta}$
@YashAgrawal isnt that obvious from the equation?
 
yeah got it
 
(we are talking about the case where theta is not 90)
 
Yes , so now we could write final KE as zero , right ?
@satan29 I forgot to see 'w' in the equation ;/
 
just after the collision , the velocity of the COM is wl/2, i.e the linear momentum is Mwl/2
consider impulse equations about the COM
then J + Jn= Mwl/2 (linear)
(J-Jn)l/2 = Ml^12 w (angular)
this again gives J= Mwl/3 :/
 
it would obviously
 
6:47 PM
With this I am 99% sure, that if the rod remains in contact with the ground, the answer has to be 3J^2/2gM^2
 
I think so , infact this answer is 'greater' than all options
but it's of kvpy , would they give wrong answer ?
 
Now the question might be considering the possibility that the rod might become airborne at some point.
 
airborne ?
 
@YashAgrawal in the air
 
6:52 PM
now have a look at this.
Considering the rod becomes airborne just after the impulse (extreme case):
 
J=Mvc, and W=constant (No torque)
 
so the energy conservation equation would be $1/2 Mvc^2= Mgh$
$h= vc^2/2g= J^2/2Mg^2$
 
yes that's what I am also getting
 
6:55 PM
so in general , h will be somewhere between $J^2/2Mg^2$ and $3J^2/2Mg^2$
1/2 if it becomes airborne at the start
 
option b has $J^2/2Mg^2$
 
3/2 if it always stays on the ground
 
and somewhere in between otherwise
so the option (c) would be appropriate , had there been a 3/2 instead of 9/8
:(
 
this is the soln I found
 
6:58 PM
But I guess we have to approach the question this way only
@YashAgrawal well okay my reasoning was spot on, but my calculation for the first case doesnt match
 
Yes 3/2 seems correct
 
@YashAgrawal my god, thats a horrible solution
 
@satan29 Yes , they somehow used $1/2MV^2$ for KE :(
 
the impulse equation isnt "conservation of angular momentum"
 
@satan29 I know , that's why I'm afraid to show it up
 
7:01 PM
@YashAgrawal yeah
i would argue its 3/2.
 
i think JR could confirm in the morning
 

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