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4:00 AM
No, that’s ok.
Very very early: look at the huge apertures.
This is a Renaissance face.
 
What are apertures in this context?
 
The openings in the c and e, for example.
 
@tchrist Yes, typical for s.XVI.
 
Also look at the oblique axis of the pen: the thin part of the nip creates a line running from SE to NW. Like this: \
 
@tchrist Are they different from s.XVII prints?
 
4:03 AM
Oh yes!
Completely.
17th century faces had a variable axis.
 
@tchrist I'm not sure what you mean here.
 
Ok.
 
The handwriting doesn't look un-s.xvii.
 
The letters are cut to mimic being hand-drawn with a proper pen.
That means the stroke has thick parts and thin parts.
For example, the letter o.
 
So you're not talking about the actual pen here? confused
 
4:05 AM
Yes, I am not.
Look at the o in the roman verſione.
Or the big one in LIBELLO.
You can see that one better.
 
What about it? Isn't it normal for o's to have thick and thin lines?
 
The letter has an "axis".
If you were to draw a straight line between the two thinnest parts.
 
Use the roman, not the italic.
Yes.
 
How is this different?
 
4:07 AM
That has a rationalist axis, not a humanist one.
 
Don't all serifed(?) fonts have that?
 
Your letterforms are humanist instead.
 
What is the difference?
 
The angle of the axis.
Rationalist is vertical.
Humanist is oblique.
 
Ahh OK.
 
4:08 AM
Rationalist axis: |
 
Yes.
 
Humanist axis: \
 
I get it.
You didn't say it was an oblique axis.
It is subtle.
 
Renaissance faces from the 15th & 16th centuries use a modulate stroke; an oblique axis; crisp, pen-formed terminals; large aperture; and the italic is equal to and independent of the roman.
The italic uses Trajans only for the versals in your book.
 
Well all this font stuff is making me thirsty. I must be off!
 
4:11 AM
That is because the italic is all but completely divorced and separate from the roman.
 
Trajans?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Bye!
 
From his column.
It’s where we get our uppercase romans from.
We use the same ones as Trajan used.
 
?
 
Trajan's Column () is a Roman triumphal column in Rome, Italy, which commemorates Roman emperor Trajan's victory in the Dacian Wars. It was probably constructed under the supervision of the architect Apollodorus of Damascus at the order of the Roman Senate. It is located in Trajan's Forum, built near the Quirinal Hill, north of the Roman Forum. Completed in AD 113, the freestanding column is most famous for its spiral bas relief, that artistically describes the epic wars between the Romans and Dacians (101–102 and 105–106). Its design has inspired numerous victory columns, both ancient an...
 
Roman capitals never went out of use.
 
4:13 AM
Exactly.
 
I know Trajan's column, I have seen it several times.
 
In fact, in even an italic, the uppercase are usually oblique romans, not script italic.
 
I don't see why one would want to name capitals after the column?
 
On a modern font, you can sometimes get at the italic uppercase with a swash alternate.
 
Swash?
 
4:15 AM
This is why I have more words than you. :)
 
Heh.
You have been devoured and spit out by the monster that is typography!
 
Ok, they’re called Trajan capitals because they are the same ones as he used.
 
That sounds completely random.
 
A swash character is one that is fancy.
For example, your capital Q is swash in your book.
 
It does have a long tail.
 
4:16 AM
Swash.
 
Heh.
 
A swash is a typographical flourish on a glyph, like an exaggerated serif. Capital swash characters, which extended to the left, were historically often used to begin sentences. There were also minuscule swash characters, which came either extending to the left, to begin words, or to the right to end them. They were used in former times to help fit the text to the line, instead of spaces of varying widths ("justification"). Some of the characters in ligatures were called swash characters, even though they did not protrude to the space on either side of the piece of type, such as the t...
Versals are often swash.
 
Another mysterious word.
 
Oh no!!
You don’t know versal?
Yes you do.
> a special style of ornate capital letter used at the beginning of a verse or paragraph, etc., esp. in an illuminated manuscript; in modern calligraphy applied to capitals built up by inking between pen strokes and having serifs in the form of long, thin, straight lines. Freq. attrib. as adj.
 
I know "related to verse", and "related to turning".
 
4:19 AM
(OED)
ˈversal, sb. (and a.1)

Etymology: f. L. vers-, ppl. stem of vertĕre to turn (cf. reversal), associated with verse sb.

† 1. = versification 3. Obs. rare.
#2 is the one I already quoted.
 
There are various styles one may use to illuminate letters...
 
versal (adj) is obsolete. versal (sb) is the sense I meant.
It means fancy caps.
Like at the beginning a chapter.
 
So it is named after verse?
@tchrist There are many styles.
 
Yes, that is true.
 
Sometimes it is just a larger, red capital.
 
4:21 AM
Red is the printer’s favorite second color.
 
Sometimes it is a highly elongated, black capital.
Does "versal" indicate a specific style?
Or just any ornate capital?
 
Bringhurst defines it as: A large initial capital, either elevated or dropped. Also called lettrine.
 
@tchrist I know the obvious things one observes when browsing old books. I don't know any of the jargon.
@tchrist Okay, so very general.
 
I would have thought you’d’ve had a word for the versals.
Do you ever transcribe text in (printed) blackletter?
 
We just call them beginletters.
 
4:24 AM
Yes, well.
Versal is nice and Latinate. :)
 
@tchrist Gothic print letters, you mean?
 
Sure.
 
They don't require transcription.
@tchrist That I will grant you!
 
Most of us can’t read the dense German Frakturs very well.
 
I mean, anyone who is interested in something written in older print is usually the kind who can read it.
 
4:26 AM
So you know about the half-r and stuff?
 
It is completely uniform.
What half r?
 
So is oatmeal.
 
The capital R where the ehm lower right leg is horizontal?
 
> a related characteristic is the half r, the shape of r when attached to other letters with bows; only the bow and tail were written, connected to the bow of the previous letter. In other scripts, this only occurred in a ligature with the letter o.
It’s in Textualis.
 
Oh, the normal o/r ligature?
 
4:28 AM
Yes.
Blackletter, also known as Gothic script, Gothic minuscule, or Textura, was a script used throughout Western Europe from approximately 1150 to well into the 17th century. It continued to be used for the German language until the 20th century. Fraktur is a notable script of this type, and sometimes the entire group of faces is known as Fraktur. Blackletter is sometimes called Old English, but it is not to be confused with the Old English language, despite the popular, though mistaken, belief that the language was written with blackletter. The Old English (or Anglo-Saxon) language predates...
 
Sure.
 
Skip down to Textualis.
I think that is what you mean by Gothic script, right?
 
I will probably know most common ligatures that were used between 800 and 1900 in the usual European scripts. I never use any specific names, though.
 
The r rotunda (), "rounded r," is an old letter variant found in full script-like typefaces, especially blackletters. Between the Middle Ages and today, many ways of writing alphabetical characters were lost. Besides a variety of ligatures, conjoined letters, scribal abbreviations, swash characters, and the "long s" with its own ligatures, one was the "r rotunda". Like many of the practices listed, this variant form of that letter was originally devised either to save space while writing on expensive parchment or for aesthetic reasons. It became popular among typesetters, providing a vi...
 
4:31 AM
  ᷣ  1DE3       COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER R ROTUNDA
 Ꝛ  A75A        LATIN CAPITAL LETTER R ROTUNDA
 ꝛ  A75B        LATIN SMALL LETTER R ROTUNDA
 
I thought you meant these.
 
Yes, those are all blackletters.
 
I would call them Gothic print or something.
 
My paste above shows that Unicode has R Rotundas, even as a combining character. :)
 
I do no have a name for the various letters on that page combined.
@tchrist I can't see the first one.
What font do I need?
 
4:32 AM
Oh.
I have no idea.
It shows up for me.
It is the half-r you use with the o.
 
I see an empty square...
@tchrist I see the second one and the third.
 
There are four major families of blackletter faces: textura, fraktur, bastarda, and rotunda.
Do you have those words?
Well, you do now. :)
 
All those sound familiar.
And I know Fraktur is a Gothic letter.
 
In Germany, they sometimes call bastarda, Schwabacher.
Well, all four are "Gothic letters". That is what blackletter is. The word blackletter is coëval with italic and roman.
 
Note that the r rotunda is extremely common after o in hands that do not use it elsewhere, but it is also quite common in other hands, where it can occur anywhere.
@tchrist I know there was this debate in Germany.
 
4:35 AM
So some people use the half-r only with o, and others use it all over the place?
 
Yes.
 
Yes, it was a big fight in Germany.
They said that their language was not well suited to these fluffy southern letters.
 
But that was probably after the Middle Ages?
Fractured letters were used all over Europe until the (late) Renaissance, I believe, or even later. They began to disappear in my country around the 17th century.
 
The Antiqua–Fraktur dispute was a typographical dispute in 19th- and early 20th-century Germany. In most European countries, blackletter typefaces like the German Fraktur were displaced with the creation of the Antiqua typefaces in the 15th and 16th centuries. However, in Germany, both typefaces coexisted until the first half of the 20th century. During that time, both typefaces gained ideological connotations in Germany, which led to long and heated disputes on what was the "correct" typeface to use. The eventual outcome was that the Antiqua-type fonts won, when the National Socialist...
 
Yes, I read that article just a week or so ago.
 
4:39 AM
So Fraktur lost because the Nazis used it.
Weird.
Kurrent is an old form of German language handwriting based on late medieval cursive writing, also known as Kurrentschrift or Alte Deutsche Schrift ("Old German script"). Over the history of its use into the first part of the 20th century, many individual letters acquired variant forms. Sütterlin is a modern script based on Kurrentschrift that is characterized by simplified letters and vertical strokes. It was developed in 1911 and taught in German schools as primary script from 1935 until 1941. Then it was replaced with "normal German font," which is sometimes referred to (correctly b...
That may be the one I was thinking of that is so hard for me-kinda-people to read.
How ’bout you?
 
@tchrist Eh I believe the Nazis later dumped it. So it wasn't because of them, was it?
 
Notice how the only thing that is instantly legible is the Latin. :)
I would certainly want this kind of thing transcribed:
 
I'm trying to read this one.
 
I really must go to bed.
I am glad to have given you so many new words tonight. :)
 
Liebster freund,
 
4:46 AM
Yes, I looked at it too.
 
Morgen geht des ? ? von hier weg; nach Breslau, wie man
sagt
 
It is very hard.
 
It looks like a French word, the first question mark.
But this is mainly hard because it is an epistolary hand.
A casual letter.
Perhaps epistolary is not the right word.
 
Not a formal bookhand.
 
The script itself is not that hard.
It is not even a normal cursive hand: it is someone who wrote "in a hurry", as we say.
I.e. sloppy.
 
4:49 AM
Ah.
Hard to believe the recipient could read it!
 
I often wonder about the letters my mother gets from a certain friend too!
@tchrist Okay, I needed some time to remember which letter was what. Once you know it, it becomes very easy.
11 mins ago, by tchrist
user image
Schuhe wünsche der Kaufmann
zeigte ihm fünf Paar. der herr
wahlte eines und fragte dann,
...
 
This one is very nice and orderly. As these things go.
I would still want it transcribed.
And I would cuff somebody who wrote that way.
Must go to sleep.
Really must.
Good night!!
 
@tchrist Haha, good night!
This isn't print btw.
I was rather thinking of 19th-century Fraktur.
Kurrent is indeed more difficult than "normal" 19th-century German books.
 
5:12 AM
@tchrist Ah, I think it must be Morgen geht das Bataillon gerade von hier weg.
 
I let him go.
How to change it into passive voice?
 
Not sure about gerade...
28 mins ago, by Cerberus
user image
@FrankScience Hmm that is difficult.
> He was let go by me.
 
@Cerberus to is not needed?
 
That is the only possibility, but it is not something you would normally say.
 
I make him go.
 
5:15 AM
@FrankScience No: you never use to with let.
 
What about changing it?
 
> He was made to go by me.
 
@Cerberus But in the passive voice.
 
@FrankScience Not even then.
 
Okay.
 
5:16 AM
Normally, making a sentence passive shouldn't change whether you use to, I would say—except in the case of make + inf.
 
I have him go.
 
But actually, this does sound natural at all.
 
have somebody do
 
@FrankScience I do not feel that this is possible.
I mean, passivising it.
It would have to be *he is had to go by me, but that doesn't sound right.
 
They are all infinitives?
 
5:19 AM
Go is an infinitive in all those examples, yes.
Actually, perhaps let is the exception, not make, because I would expect other words with the same construction to get to in the passive as well, like I bade him go / he was bid(den) to go.
But English has only a few verbs that use this construction.
 
@Cerberus bad: Pa. t. bad, bade, (bæd), bid. Pa. pple. bidden, bid.
Nobody knows how to inflect that verb any longer. Really. It is quite rarely used these days.
 
Bad is the first personal singular?
Too late.
I wasn't sure.
 
The problem is you have to do the same thing with forbid.
Bad and bade are alternant variants of the past tense.
 
So, yes, it should be I bad, you badest(?), he bade?
Oh, ah.
 
And it is pronounced bæd, bizarrely enough.
 
5:30 AM
I knew that. At least that rings a bell.
 
No, it isn’t by 1st-vs-person. You can say I bad or I bade, and the same with the other persons.
 
OK.
 
Most people wouldn’t be quite sure what you were saying, I fear.
 
Nor would I.
 
People never tell you when you read it it that bade rhymes with mad not made.
 
5:31 AM
It was the only other verb I could think of that goes like make.
@tchrist Isn't it in The Chaos?
 
I’m not even I believe it.
 
alumni
alumnus
 
Somehow I am not surpised, so I must have read this somewhere.
 
The Chaos?
 
Oh!
You don't know it?
 
5:32 AM
Oh, you can find it books.
No.
@FrankScience Yes, Frank, what about it?
 
Scroll down a bit until you see the verse.
 
@FrankScience alumnus, alumni; alumna, alumnae; use the masc for mixed groups.
 
@tchrist There might be no gender now.
 
Yes, I remembered correctly, bade is in there!
You will like it.
 
Oh that one.
I had not known it by that name.
 
5:34 AM
Ah.
Why the pluperfect?
 
@FrankScience No gender? What?
Because I knew it, but not by that name.
 
Perhaps gender is forbid in North Korea.
 
den
forbidden, please please.
 
No, no.
 
those old irregulars just confuse people.
 
5:35 AM
@Cerberus There it is democratic.
 
We're in older English now.
@FrankScience Gender is democratic?
 
> forbid /fɚˈbɪd/, v. Pa. t. forbad, forbade /-ˈbæd/; pa. pple. forbidden /-ˈbɪd(ə)n/.
See the problem?
That past of forbid is pronounced forˈbæd.
 
I'm sure the short form was used with the compound verb too.
 
And nobody says that.
 
@tchrist I saw alumni used, not pointing to males.
 
5:37 AM
Alumni is males, or both.
It should not be used for just women.
 
Agreed.
 
But the gender is unknown.
 
A lady professor does not become an emeritus professor upon her retirement/jubilation.
 
@tchrist Be careful, lest an anti-prescriptivist slap you!
@FrankScience Then it's fine.
 
@Cerberus No, I meant PRK is with Democratic.
 
5:38 AM
If the gender is unknown, use alumni.
 
@FrankScience I don't understand. The People's Republic of Korea is with Democratic?
 
@Cerberus Please read the complete name of PRK.
 
Demos = People—is that what you mean?
 
wonders what language we are in
 
It seems that you're not of google-fu.
 
5:41 AM
I have no idea what you are after.
Am I supposed to know or say something?
It appears the official name is Democratic PRK?
 
Yes, I just read it...
So...
 
Just a joke, it's full of democracy.
 
Oh, haha.
Yes.
Democracy in grey uniforms.
 
 
3 hours later…
8:47 AM
5
Q: Why 'a friend of mine' is not 'my friend's friend'?

ÉtudiantI have some questions about the expression "a friend of mine" and I'm quite confused with it. Actually I have found some threads about this topic but they don't hit my point. I'm not a native English speaker. General people may interpret that "a friend of mine" is "one of my friends" but it soun...

11
Q: Why do you say "friend of mine" instead of "friend of me"?

Brian KimI think friend of mine can be translated to my friend. In that case, doesn't friend of me make more sense? If we translate friend of mine to one of my friends then I guess friend of mine makes sense for my friends being mine. Is there a difference? When do you say ... of mine instead of my ......

 
 
2 hours later…
10:36 AM
I find that something called word roots are very ridiculus.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:54 AM
Wake up! It's Friday.
 
I am all upwoked.
What's up, Nuisance, or whatever your code name is.
 
My superhero name is Nuance, as you well know, Twit.
I mean Twister. Gee, how could I have made that mistake?
 
That's the thing. I have to live up to my name. Your name, Nonsense, is not exempt from getting twisted.
 
Well, I twitted yours right back to you.
 
And I was all like happy and shit.
 
11:59 AM
And you're all out of happy?
 
Could be. Could be a secret, too.
 
I am torn between calling in sick because it's Friday and just submitting to the routine.
 
Being torn between that is not part of the routine?
 
Prolly will submit. Nothing much to do here except clean my office, which I was hoping to put off until next decade or something.
 
Dreck reinigt den Magen.
 
12:03 PM
That's one of the reasons I don't eat it.
Where is The Sloth today? Practicing his super power?
 
Oh, and I think Cerberus's finishing move should be the Stone Cold Forgetter.
 
@RegDwightАΑA He does do that very well.
Haha, double "do" in that sentence. But it works for what I mean. Ain't English grand?
 
Hold on while I'm checking back with a bison from NYC.
 
Wait. Buffalo is in NY, not NYC.
 
Wow, you won the prize so fast, I don't even know what it is yet.
 
12:07 PM
2
A: Why 'a friend of mine' is not 'my friend's friend'?

Edwin AshworthBarrie England's answer is useful, but doesn't address (a) the reason that the double genitive is used (b) the sum total of the restrictions on its use I can't begin to answer the first of these points, but have some additional remarks to make about the second: (1) The Longman Student Grammar...

Maybe I'm going soft, but ... I don't find anything wrong with his NGrams.
 
Yeah I saw you edit it and not kill the ngrams and I went all Keanu Reeves.
 
Keanu Reeves in The Matrix or Keanu Reeves in The Devil's Advocate?
 
Then I remembered that you hadn't had coffee yet.
Haha, double had in that sentence. But it works for what I mean.
Actually, the second one was a hat. Why would that be?
 
Thank you for de-Germanizing had.
 
I will de-Germanize anything on a good day.
@Robusto both, actually, and in no particular order.
 
Das ist ein guter Tag!
 
user19161
Ich liebe dich!
 
@RegDwightАΑA My son knows someone who met Keanu Reeves. Said he was a pretty good guy, and not at all vain. He even makes jokes about his acting skill.
 
user19161
Non Sequitur is here!
 
Exercising your super power again.
 
12:11 PM
@Robusto I thought that was common knowledge since Sad Keanu.
 
I dunno. I don't read Entertainment Weekly.
 
user19161
There is only sad panda, no sad Keanu.
 
I don't even know what that is. I saw it on Reddit. Which is where it happened in the first place.
 
Keanu Reeves posted on Reddit?
 
@Robusto actually as a result of all that, he did.
 
user19161
12:13 PM
I did not know what non sequitur means. I had to look it up.
 
The wish to be cured is itself a step toward health.
Or, for @Cerberus, Pars sanitatis velle sanari fuit.
See? I left out the fruit this time, @Cer.
0
A: Please tell me what does "harsh mistress" mean in this sentence

Arlen BeilerA mistress used to (I'm finding out) mean the woman in charge of the house. Master is the male equivalent. You can have a master and mistress at the same time. Nostalgia can be a harsh mistress means that it acts like a mistress, and if you are her servant (or maid), poor you, because she is ha...

Wow, this guy sure can talk some shit. Word salad, anyone?
 
@JasperLoy Keanu was sometimes sad in My Own Private Idaho.
 
I'm so bored I posted an answer to a gen-ref question. That makes three answers in three months. The pace is killing me. Perhaps I should go back to being bored again.
 
user19161
@tchrist His worst movie was The Glasshouse.
 
Yeah. It's weird when you're so bored you start posting answer on ELU.
I've posted like three or four this week alone.
 
12:18 PM
@JasperLoy you haven't seen any of his other movies, have you.
 
user19161
@RegDwightАΑA No, but the worst movie in the world is the Japanese "Freeze".
 
Yeah. His other movies were all the worst.
 
@Robusto dude. Dude. Easy. There's more to life. Go clean your office or something.
 
@JasperLoy Obviously you're not an MST3K fan. Or you would know more about worst movies.
 
@JasperLoy Opinions vary.
 
12:20 PM
@tchrist oh yeah, Sweet November. Hit me baby one more time.
 
user19161
I think The Glasshouse was not so much the acting. It was the story that pissed me off. What a stupid story.
 
@JasperLoy again, you haven't seen any of his other movies, have you.
 
@RegDwightАΑA His name is not Sweet November. He is The Character. And be careful, or he will codepoint you within an inch of your life.
 
I had Cerberus short of words last night.
 
user19161
@RegDwightАΑA Actually I think Matrix is pretty stupid too. Just some stupid pseudophilosophical bullshit!
 
12:21 PM
@Robusto I'm not afraid. If he ever comes close I'll just stun him by mentioning Elm again.
 
user19161
Nowadays they make all these pseudophilosophical movies to try to sound smart but they are actually meaningless!
 
Or some other shit. Really, I'm unpredictable.
 
ASCII text is The Character's kryptonite.
 
8 hours ago, by Cerberus
Another mysterious word.
 
@Robusto KOI8-R works wonders, too.
Xblast time!
 
12:22 PM
Didn’t know why we call them Trajan capitals, or what versals were, or what a swash was.
 
Shower time. And then, alas, commute time. sings mournful dirge
 
How long?
 
user19161
@Robusto Have fun with the water!
 
Hm, what’s with all the flaming χtians about of late?
 
12:39 PM
This 12-step program would be applicable to for distressingly many of our postings’ authors.
 
12:54 PM
0
Q: Words without vowels and vowels pronunciation

vigneshi Like to list out the common English words which doesn't have following 1.words without usage of vowels(e.g sky) 2.words doesn't have vowel 's pronunciation(e.g sky comes with 'i' pronunciation) can anyone list out the common words?

sighs
There are probably salvageable questions somewhere in this question’s periphery, like out by Andromeda somewhere, but I haven’t the oomph to reel one in.
Why do people hate on catsup so damn much?
 
Jul 26 at 11:56, by RegDwight АΑA
That's not ketchup, that's bottled disgust.
@tchrist not constructive even after severe cleanup. NARQ otherwise.
Boring Friday meeting time. BBL.
 
As I said, out by Andromeda somewhere.
K, thanks.
 

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