TRPG General Chat

Ben

12:35 AM

Hay yall

Ben

12:59 AM

How is everyone's week going?

Shalvenay

1:13 AM

@Ben brrrrr

(recovering from power outage here, first rolling blackout for us /o\)

Ben

@Shalvenay that sounds like a good excuse for blankets and hot chocolate :D

Oh dear D:

Shalvenay

1:31 AM

@Ben yeah, the rolling blackouts have us kicking conservation measures in (part of which is "we're doing leftovers as thus not to fire up the actual stove", never mind limiting hot water usage, turning down the t-stat, and so on)

Ben

Yeesh. That is rough. I hope it gets resolved quickly!

BESW

I grew up with regular scheduled and unscheduled utility outages, but I never had to deal with the cold factor.

Shalvenay

@Ben yeah, it should break as soon as the cold spell lifts -- it's a transmission-operator-wide rolling blackout request, too, not something our utility buggered up

BESW

1:47 AM

"How Online Collaboration is Opening a World of Southeast Asian RPGs" article for EN World.

Hot RPG Questions

3

Q: How can I determine the rolling curve of this roll under system?

The system The system relies on Traits and Skills (which both range from 0 to 6). Players rolls a number of d6 equal to the Skill they're using. Any dice result equal or under the related Trait value is considered a success. Example: Bob attacks an orc. He has a Melee Skill of 3 and a Strength...

statistics

TheDragonOfFlame

3:13 AM

Anyone know any good space rpgs, preferably with a good world generation system?

Ben

@TheDragonOfFlame Rogue Trader/Dark Heresy

I am biased however

AncientSwordRage

@TheDragonOfFlame define good

BESW

The 1985 Doctor Who Role Playing Game has a very comprehensive set of system/planet tables. Together Among the Stars is a brilliant planetary exploration game for imbuing emotion into proceedurally generated worlds. I suspect you're gonna have to be more specific about what kind of game you want for recommendations to be particularly useful.

AncientSwordRage

Because you could use microscope for the world generation then move into elsewhere for the actual game

BESW

Are you looking for romance among the stars? Delivering space mail? Heist-and-dash in a heavily planeted solar system?

I playtested a "superheroes of the solar system" type game a while back, I could see how that's been progressing.

Diaspora is a fascinating welding of the pre-Core Fate chassis to a "hard SF" aesthetic. I want to steal its jumpgate system generation technique someday.

A. B.

3:34 AM

/me waves hello

BESW

[wave]

What's new?

A. B.

/me could have sworn this chatroom had /me's, oh well.

Hi BESW.
You do not want to know.
What's new with you?

BESW

Not a lot in the TRPG end of things, to my sadness. Been trying to work on some design but it keeps scaling beyond my ability and I have to rip it back down to the ground.

A. B.

Awk, I think I know what you mean. Hope you'll get it sorted out eventually.

I want to play some games over Roll20, but I can't get my sleep schedule reliable enough.

Ben

3:56 AM

@A.B. Hey, off topic question... Are you from Ireland/scotland by any chance?

A. B.

England. Why?

Ben

The "Awk" reply

I know someone from Glasgow that uses it. Wasn't sure if it was just from there or not

A. B.

Haha

I pick up weird things I've read from all over, so it may very well be.

Ben

Fair enough. One story I have is when a neighbor's nephew visited from Canada and got very confused by the use of "oi"

A. B.

4:18 AM

There are local variations in oi? :-D

Ben

Not sure if it was the Australian accent, or if they just don't use it/don't use it often in Canada.

TheDragonOfFlame

4:35 AM

@Ben yeah, no one really says that, but it means like “hey you”

like “oi you there” to get someone’s attention

but it’s something Canadians imagine British people say and don’t really say to oftem

@AncientSwordRage some aspect of the game is enjoyable. Character creation, combat, roleplay, world building, anything

Hot RPG Questions

4:54 AM

3

Q: Does the racial trait from Innistrad Provincial Origin, Stensia and the feat Tough stack?

The Player's Handbook feat Tough: Your hit point maximum increases by an amount equal to twice your level when you gain this feat. Whenever you gain a level thereafter, your hit point maximum increases by an additional 2 hit points and the Innistrad human provincial origin Stensia racial trait ...

dnd-5e feats hit-points stacking

Hot RPG Questions

6:59 AM

4

Q: Can anyone Raise a Shield?

I have not found any Shield proficiency in the game. Can Wizards carry around a Steel Shield, and get +2 AC out of it? What is the point of the Shield cantrip then? Twice the AC, same action. You can cast with a shield in your hand. Sure, you cannot use Shield Block, but the cantrip allows it onl...

pathfinder-2e shield

Hot RPG Questions

7:24 AM

4

Q: Can the Rune Knight's runes only be placed on materials that can be carved?

TCoE's Rune Knight fighter subclass gains proficiency in smith's tools (i.e. metalworking), and its first major feature is called Rune Carver, which says: ...you can touch a number of objects equal to the number of runes you know, and you inscribe a different rune onto each of the objects. To b...

dnd-5e class-feature fighter rune-knight

SmokeDetector

8:13 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in body, potentially bad ns for domain in body (100): Is Gmail Down remove all records of the account? by max smith on rpg.SE (@Rubiksmoose)

Hot RPG Questions

9:05 AM

6

Q: Is it safe to bring an item like a Bag of Holding into a Genie Warlock's Bottle?

Since the Genie's Vessel is described as an object/vessel and never as an item, is it safe to bring a Portable Hole, Bag of Holding, or Heward's Handy Haversack into the bottle? If your vessel is a ring per the examples, is it splitting hairs to not call it an item? Genie's Vessel: -- Tashas p.7...

dnd-5e magic-items warlock

Thomas Markov

1:32 PM

I already voted to close, but I think we have a duplicate here, see comments for link to target: rpg.stackexchange.com/q/180890/62294

Well, partial duplicate, since that question is like 5 questions.

AncientSwordRage

2:26 PM

@ThomasMarkov well it's closed now

RevenantBacon

3:25 PM

@ThomasMarkov I believe that they aren't asking for a full history, they are asking where they can go to find out more.

Hot RPG Questions

9

Q: Where to find information about the official DnD5e books title creatures?

I'm wondering where did the title characters from the official DnD5e books come from. What are their lores in the world of DnD 5e. I want to know more about: Tasha, Xanathar, Mordenkainen and Volo. Where can I learn more about their stories? Is there any official information? Or are they only som...

dnd-5e lore books

RevenantBacon

Hey, does someone have a ink to that meta on how to write good questions?

I feel like the user who's been asking about Warlocks and Find Familiar needs to read it. Their wuestions are rambling and unfocused

Thomas Markov

3:44 PM

@RevenantBacon I already linked the tour and help center, Ill find the meta.

I linked this meta.

@Someone_Evil @Rubiksmoose yall mind if I work an adding "return to FAQ index" links to all of our FAQ questions?

RevenantBacon

@ThomasMarkov I've been looking through some of their question and answer history, and almost all of them are rambling messes.

Thomas Markov

Meta has been pretty dead for at least a week, I probably wont upset anyone by flooding the front page with bumps on FAQ questions.

Going to add links to 12 FAQ questions.

Thomas Markov

4:15 PM

Too late to object now.

RevenantBacon

4:26 PM

Oh dear

Thomas Markov

@RevenantBacon wat

RevenantBacon

@ThomasMarkov This lol

Thomas Markov

Our last activity on meta was over a week ago.

RevenantBacon

I'm not actually overly concerned

Also: I'm bookmarking the "Why was my message closed as unclear" so I don't have to dig for it in the future.

Cuz it seems particularly relevant to this user.

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov I say it's a good call

Thomas Markov

4:33 PM

Should I add a "return to FAQ index" link to the bottom of the faq index?

Someone_Evil

That seems more confusing than useful

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil yep thats the joke

Maybe "return to top of FAQ index"

@Someone_Evil we have lots of [faq-proposal] questions that are languishing in limbo.

Someone_Evil

A bunch of them are my help center writeups

Medix2

5:30 PM

Where do the "comments" in a question's history next to the close event come from?

For example: this has "Opinion-based" and this has "Not suitable for this site" Oh... I think they're just predetermined by the closure type

Time to wonder what all the auto-generated comments are XD

Seems its just duplicate, detail/clarity, focus, opinion, and off-topic. And I guess whatever (Meta) migration says

Upper_Case

Isn't there a custom option, where you can enter your own? I think it still shows up as a comment, but I'm not sure how often it's used

Mithical

Falls under "Not suitable for this site"

Thomas Markov

This question has attracted poor answers, Ive voted to close it for needs more focus, though needs details or opinion based probably apply too.

Mark Wells

5:51 PM

I struggle with these questions, since I think the universally correct answer is "You should play a character you're excited about" (and therefore opinion-based) but that's a point of play style disagreement.

Upper_Case

The question definitely could (and should) be more focused, but I'm not sure the poor-quality answers would have been avoided. Though that depends on how, specifically, the extra focus is added to the question

Mark Wells

If that's the question they intend to ask, then pressuring them to "focus" it is unhelpful. We'd be creating an XY problem for them.

Upper_Case

6:07 PM

Closing the question doesn't help the querent either, so I'm not sure that's the best standard to use. In these cases there is tension between "good for the querent" and "good for the stack". The latter generally wins

PvParkour

i made a prophecy for a paladin's atonement do anyone want to read it

i have the straight prophcey and the deciphered version in case people want to know what it means

Mark Wells

6:45 PM

@PvParkour sure, I'm into prophecy

Hot RPG Questions

7

Q: How can I make people fear a player with a monstrous character?

I am running Curse of Strahd at the moment and one of my players is using a Bugbear, which is causing me some challenge. The module specifically states: Barovians thus react to nonhuman characters the same way most humans in the real world would react to elf, dwarf, or half-orc adventurers sudde...

dnd-5e gm-techniques curse-of-strahd

Powerdork

7:16 PM

@MarkWells It's an answer rooted in play experience, right?

doppelgreener

8:18 PM

gonna post this again:

16

Q: Is there an expression (or some expressions) we can use instead of "frame challenge"?

The concept of a frame challenge is fairly ubiquitous in our community, at least for meta users or those who've been around long enough to have seen it a few times. There's an issue here though: I'm pretty sure nobody else uses that terminology but us. All the results on Google or DuckDuckGo for...

support terminology frame-challenge

"frame challenge" is insular terminology that occurs almost nowhere else. random google visitors won't understand it, and announcing it is often a crutch, sometimes even used in place of actually justifying the frame challenge as necessary

Thomas Markov

Did you just Frame Challenge Frame Challenges?

doppelgreener

no

it's my personal thoughts that we're better off not announcing "frame challenge" in public answers on main site

in favor of actual terminology people would know (there are several commonly used expressions available) and actually justifying the frame challenge, preferably after actually answering the question per normal

Upper_Case

Do you think that the term "frame challenge" is an active impediment to answers justifying that approach to answering, or to an answer being good (or, at least, better)?

It's not an argument for keeping the term at all (which I don't have a strong stance on), I'm wondering if answers would be largely the same, simply including or excluding the term

Thomas Markov

when I google "frame challenge" the first hit is your answer to "what is a frame challenge".

doppelgreener

at the time i asked that, when i googled frame challenge, literally all my hits were photography competitions

nowadays when i google that, i see (1) the meta Q&A about it, (2) a meta post referencing that meta question, and (3-infinity) photography competitions

bearing in mind google results are highly personalised, and google here is tuning for the fact i'm a known stack user

Thomas Markov

8:27 PM

@doppelgreener I googled it from my boss's computer in an incognito tab on a proxy server located in germany and it was still the first hit.

doppelgreener

@Upper_Case I think it's an impediment to clarity to people who are not avid stack users, and I feel it comes as an impediment to usefulness of answers: it often use comes instead of actually justifying the frame challenge as necessary, or comes at the expense of answering the question and also justifying why an alternative answer is necessary and also providing that alternative answer (because only the last part happens instead).

RevenantBacon

@ThomasMarkov That's wild

NautArch

I feel like I'd known frame challenge prior to my time here.

But clearly in general it's not known, so that is neither here nor there

Thomas Markov

I didnt but the context was abundantly clear and it didnt need explaining.

I suppose thats because the first time I encoutnered it it was well done.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov probably could have still fingerprinted somehow?

NautArch

8:31 PM

@RevenantBacon That would have been crazy if it was true.

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage Unless it was actually reading my fingerprints on the keyboard...

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener I hadn't seen frame challenge, but like some dnd-5e questions, I understand it from the english language meaning of it

I MUCH prefer it to claiming something is an "XY problem" which gets my hackles up

Thomas Markov

I just spelled it wrong on internet explorer on a computer ive never used and i still got dopple's meta.

NautArch

@AncientSwordRage That is definitely something that feels like it's from the stack

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch it is, or at least popularised by it

Thomas Markov

8:34 PM

@NautArch Theres a wikiedia page for xy problem

AncientSwordRage

XY problem says to me "You're being dumb and don't know how to ask", Frame Challenge to me says "I, the answerer, am taking a different approach"

doppelgreener

so, like, what's better between these two:
1. an answer spends time addressing the question as asked (if appropriate), then addresses the issue with the question such that the querent may actually be better served by another answer, then provides an alternative answer to what they asked
2. an answer says "frame challenge" and just provides a completely different answer to what was asked

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener It's context dependent. There are some cases where (2) may be better.

doppelgreener

i feel like #2 is skipping some steps and is allowing people to justify answers which we'd otherwise consider to not be appropriately answering the question, because they prefixed it with Power Word: Frame Challenge

NautArch

@doppelgreener I think (if appropriate) is the sticking point there.

Thomas Markov

8:38 PM

@NautArch Yes, that's where I was going lol. The "if appropriate" basically means "proceed to number 2".

doppelgreener

@NautArch there's three parts to (1), where the second part is "actually justify why you need to provide an alternative answer" and then the third part is providing an alternative answer. "frame challenge" seems to skip the first and second part quite often.

NautArch

@doppelgreener Ah! I like part "actually justify..."

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener if appropriate, if someone considers a frame challenge valid then it's probably not going to be appropriate to answer traditionally

NautArch

That would be a much friendlier approach

doppelgreener

okay, let me re-ask that

Thomas Markov

8:40 PM

I think your issue with frame challenge is an xy problem. /S

doppelgreener

what's better between these two:
1. an answer (a) spends time addressing the question as asked, (b) addresses the issue with the question such that the querent may actually be better served by another answer, then (c) provides an alternative answer to what they asked; skipping step (a) if appropriate
2. an answer says "frame challenge" and just provides a completely different answer to what was asked (part c only)

AncientSwordRage

I feel like the 'Straightforward answer' and the 'frame challenge' answer are two sides of a Venn diagram with a small amount of overlap

doppelgreener

part (a) is sometimes very appropriate to skip, but (b) is rarely appropriate to skip

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener I feel like you also get answers with just part a) and also answers with b) and c) only.

Upper_Case

@doppelgreener I think that (1) is do-able, in most cases, though tricky to do well and many people who can do (2) may not be able to do (1)

doppelgreener

8:41 PM

this answer for example just says "frame challenge" but also totally skips answering the question and providing any appropriate mechanism for what the querent's looking for

NautArch

@doppelgreener Be interesting to look at answers to see how often it is skipped (and now I'd like to find my own to see if I've skipped them or not.)

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener "why wouldn't you lock this character out of almost every interaction in town?" is part b)

NautArch

^^

AncientSwordRage

that's the challenge part

NautArch

It's not extensive, but it's there - and i'm not sure how much more needed to be said.

Without repeating themselves

Upper_Case

8:42 PM

But I feel like it's a function of answer quality and answerer interest, rather than a behavior that the term "frame challenge" specifically invites

doppelgreener

then i'm not sure why this is a frame challenge exactly, if this is actually how to handle people being afraid of the pc

NautArch

"I'm not sure why you wouldn't, because here's what happens if you DO!"

Upper_Case

(Again, not defending frame challenges, just noting that I don't think their presence drives the problematic behaviors)

doppelgreener

@NautArch Then imagine if this answer, instead of saying "frame challenge", said this

"Don't do that thing, because it works poorly, because of these reasons. Instead do this other thing, which works well, because of these reasons."

that's my pro forma for when i make a frame challenge

NautArch

@doppelgreener Yes, although I think historically people have been dinged for not answering the question as asked. Clearly saying you are challenging the frame is a way to avoid that.

AncientSwordRage

8:44 PM

@doppelgreener ok, but that still feels like that's part b) and c)

doppelgreener

@AncientSwordRage yes, it is

NautArch

That's also very much a writing style thing as well.

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener ah ok I thought we were arguing for ABC vs just C., I like your phrasing

Upper_Case

Though it does seem that writing style is coming under some additional scrutiny as well, of late

NautArch

@Upper_Case what do you mean?

AncientSwordRage

8:46 PM

Feb 8 at 13:29, by Thomas Markov

Id write a frame challenge and inevitably someone would be like "this sounds like a frame challenge" and im like, "well, yeah, obviously".

Feb 8 at 13:30, by Thomas Markov

Since I started adding "Frame Challenge" to all my frame challenges, no one has asked me if it was a frame challenge.

doppelgreener

@NautArch Right, I completely agree, and that's kind of the problem! If I were to post an answer that's not answering the question, and that would get me dinged for being an insufficient answer, that means some more information and justification is needed. But instead of providing that information and justification, people say "frame challenge" as a get out of jail free card. That's the issue.

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage I feel like i wrote that yesterday, but it was 9 days ago, what the world.

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener the example you gave of that, didn't seem to do that

@ThomasMarkov it's still march 2020

doppelgreener

@AncientSwordRage i feel like that's coming out of a culture where folks are always announcing their frame challenges

AncientSwordRage

time is irrelevant

Thomas Markov

8:47 PM

Practicum: How is this frame challenge answer of mine?

Upper_Case

@NautArch Recent action regarding tone and implied tone (on which I am not commenting here) seems like it will lead, in a pretty straight line, to some sort of standards for style (informal or otherwise)

NautArch

@Upper_Case I believe that is an entirely separate issue and our policies on friendliness have always been there. We should always be trying to be better here.

doppelgreener

Here's my yardstick: if your answer can have "frame challenge" deleted from the front of it and it wouldn't fare well, then there's content problems with the answer and "frame challenge" shouldn't be invoked to circumvent having to address them. If your answer would be fine with those words deleted, they've got no reason to be there.

Upper_Case

@NautArch I agree. But "better" encompasses a lot of different behaviors and practices, and if "frame challenge" is deemed unhelpful I don't think that "that's how I like to write answers" will find much traction. Especially if it's viewed as dismissive of valuable elements of questions

NautArch

@Upper_Case If how someone likes to write answers is unfriendly, then there shouldn't be any leeway and that answer should be deleted.

Upper_Case

8:50 PM

Though perhaps the overlap is only in a small subset of answers/answerers, which is definitely possilbe

doppelgreener

@NautArch can confirm that during my time with a diamond, i regularly took action on exactly this issue

Upper_Case

Maybe I'm conflating "unhelpful" and "unfriendly" in ways that aren't germane to this specific question... similar things have happened before

NautArch

And I don't think that the issue of friendliness and the issue of less helpful are related in this discussion.

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener counter, if your answer is ok without them but has been getting knocked because people are challenging your challenge then it's ok to add it

doppelgreener

@AncientSwordRage i feel like if people are challenging your challenge, that's indicative of the content problem: you clearly haven't actually justified why the challenge is necessary and justified and appropriate and actually a better answer than directly answering the question

AncientSwordRage

8:52 PM

@doppelgreener that's 100% possible

NautArch

@doppelgreener Sometimes a helper is still helpful. I don't ever need to use the helper on the pool table, but it sure makes things easier when I do!

doppelgreener

if "frame challenge" makes people stop asking that without you actually modifying the content otherwise, that's a problem

and, well, i think it does, and i think that's a lot of why people use it—two stock words are a lot easier than actually justifying yourself more thoroughly—and i think that's a problem that leads to reduced usefulness of those answers

NautArch

Right, you 100% need the latter, but the former should only be used as the topping to remind folks who aren't thinking this is an option.

The "frame challenge" is the signpost. But the actual explanation is the location. A signpost without a location isn't worth anything.

doppelgreener

@NautArch i think it shouldn't be used, because either it's not necessary and your answer is fine, or it's covering over something.

NautArch

@doppelgreener Did you think @ThomasMarkov's answer was fine?

doppelgreener

8:56 PM

i'd point to KRyan's answers as a body of work that has tons of frame challenges without announcing themselves as such. Someone asks how to do something in D&D 3.5e, he answers how, then he says "but don't ever do this because it's a terrible idea and here's why", then he provides a better solution as to how to accomplish what the querent is trying to accomplish.

@NautArch Flatly, I will direct you to the fact that the querent accepted a different answer that actually answered the question that was asked.

Check out the top of the question as well: the querent's trying to figure out how dragons survive attacks so well.

They then ask about AC.

Surprisingly, the accepted answer is a frame challenge, without announcing it, on account of declining to engage in the bolded AC question in order to engage in the earlier question.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, messaging number in answer (342): Uses of the herbalism kit by Jenny Ella on rpg.SE (@Rubiksmoose)

doppelgreener

(they note the querent thought AC was the only option, but it isn't, and it's an obvious solution the querent already knows about, so instead it's providing a broader scope of solution)

Thomas Markov

woooo 39 seconds

Upper_Case

If someone were truly good at magically solving problems, why would their main advertising approach be spam on (essentially) random websites that allow users to post content?

Thomas Markov

37 seconds on that spam kill

doppelgreener

9:01 PM

This doesn't mean I don't think Thomas's answer is any good—it is decent to point out that yeah, you just raise the AC or give it more HP—but it is missing potential content and was not accepted by the querent.

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener I think basing your analysis of my answer on it not getting the green check is smuggling in further criteria that isnt helpful for me improve my answers

"How do you know your frame challenge is good or not? It gets accepted" doesnt tell me anything

doppelgreener

i'm not trying to give you feedback on your answer right now, so that would be why this doesn't read like useful feedback on your answer right now

i'm answering NautArch who asked whether the answer was fine, and i do not think it is just fine

Thomas Markov

awkward finger guns

Upper_Case

@doppelgreener The question (sort of) asks for answers outside of AC increases too, so maybe frame challenge isn't exactly the situation

doppelgreener

i am also not smuggling in criteria: the whole criteria is "is it useful to people trying to get their problems solved to handle things this way?" and i think it is not, and which answer they accepted is a big indicator of usefulness

Upper_Case

9:05 PM

Does that nreadth affect the issue at all?

*breadth

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener I understand that, but "it gets accepted" is an entirely useless indicator when we are writing answers.

doppelgreener

i mean, you might be looking for something that's not there because i'm not trying to provide it right now

if you do want feedback i'm writing that up (just copied it to clipboard so i could write this reply first)

Upper_Case

@ThomasMarkov But isn't that the point? If saying "frame challenge" reduces dings from other users, but doesn't lead to accepted answers, then that would be guidance to not write answers in that mode

Thomas Markov

I mean, I have trouble getting green checks on highly upvoted answers that answer the question directly and are the only answer posted, so I dont think green checks are reliable metrics here.

doppelgreener

I am sorry that i am kinda roasting your answer though, so here is some specific feedback: I'd explain directly how dragon AC gets raised, meaning (given what I know) I'd directly answer "There's no actual way to increase dragon AC in the rules, short of ... just directly adjusting their AC as the DM. To aid survivability you'd increase HP too." I'd elaborate by pointing to the lack of rules where dragon armor would be found if it existed.
This is mostly a reorganisation of information in your answer. Is that a sufficient answer, or is there stuff missing? The querent's looking for other in…

Thomas Markov

9:11 PM

@doppelgreener Dont apologize for the roast, that's why I posted. Post it and roast it.

doppelgreener

@ThomasMarkov if we're saying "the answer the querent accepted isn't a useful indicator of what they considered to be the most useful answer" i think we've got some much deeper issues. i'm choosing to consider that it is, in fact, a useful indicator.

(because i think that's a pretty reliable conclusion to make and i don't have much reason to consider otherwise)

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener Right, when it happens its a reliable indicator, but getting the green check at all isnt particularly reliable.

doppelgreener

no, i agree

i think we're on the same page there at least

Thomas Markov

Here's another frame challenge of mine where in my understanding I did exactly what you were putting forward here

PvParkour

@MarkWells ah sorry i had to do things ok here it is

Thomas Markov

9:13 PM

And didnt get the green check because the rules OP was asking for dont actually exist.

PvParkour

rereading it, it sounds like something a little kid would write but i dont care

eleven deeds
ten beads
nine lives
eight knives
seven blights
six heights

five years
four tears
three hours
two flowers
one lens
no friends

doppelgreener

@ThomasMarkov why frame challenge suddenly in the middle there?

i honestly don't know why those two words are there

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage taps sign

doppelgreener

that section isn't even a frame challenge, it's just a heading for a section that's elaborating on what you've said above.

Upper_Case

@ThomasMarkov I've seen answers accepted that are flat-out wrong; it happens. That it's not perfectly reliable information doesn't necessarily mean that answer-acceptance provides no useful information at all. I do sympathize

doppelgreener

9:16 PM

@ThomasMarkov i feel like there's some kind of red herring going on here with focus on the green check

PvParkour

what does frame challenge mean sorry im new

doppelgreener

when i brought it up before in response to NautArch, i just brought it up to indicate: an answer that did not use "frame challenge" elaborated more heavily and was the more useful answer (as evidenced by the green check). i do think your answer missed potential elaboration, and while I have no way to prove it, I suspect it would have fared differently if it did not say "frame challenge" at the start.

@PvParkour no problem, it's terminology we use internally here. here's an explainer:

60

A: What's a frame challenge?

A frame challenge is where an author answers a question in a wholly different way the querent never asked for, or potentially expressly forbade, but in a way the author feels will actually solve the problem. (Or otherwise improve the querent's life quality or prevent them from making some terribl...

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener I mean, the score says something.

Upper_Case

@ThomasMarkov But clearly not enough... lots of net upvotes don't cover rules violations, for example

doppelgreener

@ThomasMarkov i mean, it does, but the fact it got heavily upvoted without people going "hey i think this is missing stuff" is an issue, and i think saying "frame challenge" got people to not provide feedback they would otherwise provide which would've made your answer better, because hey, it's a frame challenge

again: it's a crutch, the way it works and the fact it does work is what concerns me

PvParkour

9:23 PM

ah that makes sense

Thomas Markov

@PvParkour Im gonna come back to this later and try to figure it out.

NautArch

I think we are all in general agreement here. We all think that a frame challenge answer can be written better. They shouldn't need a label, but right now it is kind of helpful for them to have it. but having it shouldn't mean that we don't write better answers. I think that's something we all agree with.

PvParkour

i just got here today and i agree too but might be biased because ive only just now heard of frame challeneges tbh

ok bye for today

doppelgreener

ttfn!

@NautArch i think it's helpful for them to have a label that we use when discussing them in chat or meta, that isn't in contest for me. i think it's actively unhelpful for frame challenge answers to label themselves as such on mainsite

AncientSwordRage

@NautArch or someone didn't read the answer carefully

NautArch

9:30 PM

@doppelgreener that's fair

doppelgreener

KRyan has 2,933 answers!!, and i think it'd be fair to say at least a hundred are either "do that like this, but don't do that for these reasons, do this instead" or just outright "don't do that for these reasons, do this instead"—making them frame challenges—while using the term "frame challenge" only three times.

Those frame challenges fare well, and they fare well because they actually evidently justify themselves such that their alternative answer to the question is totally justified inside the answer itself.

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener weirdly all three were in 2017.

doppelgreener

Nobody has to say "this sounds like a frame challenge" because the answers are instead just excellent explanation and justification for why an alternative solution is more appropriate than what the querent is actually asking for—and they provide an actual answer if one is available, so that if you do want to do the thing, you have a solution for that.

@ThomasMarkov i thought so too, tbh!

two in neighbouring months even

Thomas Markov

He probably said, "let me try this thing" and decided it wasnt for him.

doppelgreener

I think his April usage of it is actually an interesting occasion of explicitly self-labelling the answer using that phrase being a genuinely helpful thing to do.

it told the user "here's what's coming up. it's not an answer to your question. here's why and what's about to be written here instead."

Upper_Case

9:39 PM

Does anyone have much experience presenting players with dilemmas/trilemmas as part of the overarching plot of the campaign? I have one coming up, but haven't presented such a thing to my players as explicitly as I'm planning to do here

RevenantBacon

9:49 PM

So here's some exciting news: We have an entire pallet full of propane canisters in my warehouse currently. We are not supposed to have propane canisters in the warehouse

AncientSwordRage

@RevenantBacon exciting or dangerous? Or generous?

NautArch

@Upper_Case I've tried a few times with little success. But I think that was a mix of both my approach and my table's expectations of gameplay.

Upper_Case

10:10 PM

@NautArch Not promising... but it's my whole encounter design for closing out the story arc. Maybe I'll toss in some really explicit signposts that it's coming

NautArch

@Upper_Case I had tried to set it up with clear implications about the choices and consequences, but they mostly didn't care.

MikeQ

@Upper_Case I did one when revising the story of the Sunless Citadel, and the players really engaged with it. Basically there's a big evil aberration that's poisoning the countryside, and throughout the adventure I presented various NPCs, factions, and reasons to keep it alive.

Upper_Case

@NautArch I guess I'd be OK with it if they didn't care much. My big concern is that they'll feel they were set up for failure. They aren't being set up for that, but it will be difficult to avoid sacrificing one or two priorities in pursuit of the other(s)

@MikeQ Awesome! Any tips on generating that engagement, and especially making the forced choice seem fair?

NautArch

@Upper_Case Sounds like you need to make sure you are clear in their choices and the consequences. For me, that's often done in session recaps.

Whoa, forced choice? Did I miss that in your original request?

Upper_Case

@NautArch No, I'd meant to imply it but didn't state it clearly

MikeQ

10:18 PM

So once the players beat the "final boss", they're faced with the dilemma of whether to destroy the aberration, or whether to relinquish it to an NPC group. Sort of a choose-your-own adventure discussion which I then used to generate an epilogue.

As a point of reference, I had tried and failed to have an after-big-boss challenge in previous adventures. I think this time it worked because the question of what to do with this aberration was tied to the plot and the themes that had been encountered throughout the adventure. I also used PC backstories for hooks. e.g. One of the PCs is an anthropologist, so while they're exploring the dungeon ruins, I had them find records of mages who used this aberration for mostly-good purposes.

Upper_Case

There are two NPCs that the PCs oppose: one who is behind the gnoll invasion for its own sake and one who engineered the invasion but for his own nefarious purposes. There is also a city which will be the target of the invasion, which is unprepared. All three will be far enough apart that it will be difficult to address all three

So they can stop the guy they hate, stop his lieutenant whom they hate for different reasons, or save the city/mitigate the damage the gnolls do

@MikeQ Interesting; so would you say it was mostly in the setup and tie-ins to the story?

MikeQ

It was 100% the tie-ins to the story, as well as tying in to the initial motive of the adventure. There was no way the PCs could have missed story information that was relevant to this decision, and there was no way that they couldn't predict it. i.e., Even if the big boss is dead, the players know that the story isn't over yet, until this other thing is resolved.

Upper_Case

I think I can pull that off... or at least make a worthy effort

NautArch

@Upper_Case ah, forced choice in that they MUST choose a side.

Or at least, outside of players outsmarting you

MikeQ

Oh yeah, that's another good point. I didn't present it as a set of distinct choices. There were definitely combinations of options that the players could decide upon, so the players would be able to discuss creative solutions rather than vote between A vs B.

Upper_Case

10:25 PM

@NautArch Exactly! It would be exciting if they could slice through the Gordian knot here. I'm trying in rules from Strongholds and Followers, so they should have some pretty powerful options for operating at that level

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NautArch

10:56 PM

@Upper_Case For me, the game is more fun for some of that macro stuff if the players have a clear idea of the landscape and options that they've been presented. Things they've missed, they still miss. But overall, the struggle of the choice is where folks have fun.

Upper_Case

@NautArch I'll signpost it. My current best idea is that an NPC (either the spymaster for their community that they've met, or a military figure that they haven't met yet) will outline the choices and exclusivity between them. I think that the stakes will be clear enough for them to make informed choices

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NautArch

@Upper_Case Nice! Now watch them find a fourth option.

Someone_Evil

11:12 PM

@NautArch And spend half an hour discussing whether to take that one, or the fifth one :)

NautArch

@Someone_Evil don't forget the 6th!

Upper_Case

@NautArch I wouldn't put it past them, especially in a way that disrupts all future plotlines

@NautArch I could see them pleading with the powerful Infernal and Abyssal figures they've established relationships with. I bet they even specifically avoid bringing the dragon into the fight for the invaded city...

Someone_Evil

@NautArch That's them getting mixed up with which approach they're doing, and only realize after invisibility has been cast

RevenantBacon

11:49 PM

@AncientSwordRage Mostly #2. We are not certified for storage of explosive materials. These were supposed to ship direct-to-customer, but due to an error from our purchasing dept, they were sent to us. Our shipping director had to call in a favor so that we can ship them out as none of our usual carriers will take them without charging a rather large fee, since most of them are grocery carriers.

Shalvenay

@RevenantBacon yeah, that sounds like it could have been a rather aggravating problem, having a pallet of 2.1 that you can't get rid of >.>

RevenantBacon

Even worse, we have to store it literally outside the building, for the aforementioned not certified reason, the carrier won't be able to pick it up until Friday, and we're supposed to be hit by a huge snowstorm starting tomorrow afternoon >_<

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