[grid-deduction] Puzzle Solving

and this is.... this is puzzle number eight?

3.5 melons

... the next one is 4 melons

good lord

i need to read that a few times

so you take the perimeters

the perimeter 3's

.......and then um

there are 10 of them

.....

i'm just gonna do #9

3:11 AM

how about you prove it to yourself?

plus I am making #9 for you, it is big

i'm confused by step one, where did the 10, 10, 8, 8 come from

try blocking off a single escape channel and making the 3s fit along the edges

that's just me calculating the perimeter

10 on the top, 10 on the bottom, the 8 for each side to not double-count corners

oh. i was just doing 10 x 4

so you have the perimeter

then there are 12 3's along the perimeter

which have to have 1 square between them

and don't forget the extra squares, one per corner

like R2C2

so you have to reserve 12 squares for 3-blocking

3:13 AM

not on the perimeter but in the 3 area

arrgh

okay i'm just gonna trust your math and say that all the 3's have to escape

make all the 3s escape, and also fill in the "extra" squares with 3s

that's all the math says

so this?

yep

kk, now i can solve it

3:16 AM

that's the break-in, the rest is normal

least favorite break-in ever

it's one of those puzzles where you have to find exactly what the creator was thinking to make any progress

no offense to melon but i kinda hate this one

but they're trying to teach you counting math so whatev

i think the fact that there are so many 3s is kinda meant to be the hint to it

but yeah it's not easy, especially if you're not used to counting arguments

either my brain is broken or this is way too complex to throw at me in the eighth puzzle

3:19 AM

it's not that your brain is broken, it's just hard

the way i thought about it was that if any of the 3s don't go inwards, they'll push the 3s on both sides away, and those will push the next ones away along the border, and it keeps going until you make it all the way around and there's a collision

that makes logical sense to me now that i understand it that way, but the math required to understand/prove it as the intended global deduction is highly frustrating to me

i have an irrational hatred for global counting deductions

i mean, i think my explanation is pretty rigorous, and doesn't need to do any actual counting

the trick is just to notice how the threes on the border push each other around

it's a global deduction but it doesn't have to be a particularly mathy one

that explanation makes perfect sense. i am just irrationally frustrated for not getting it, i will stop complaining now :p

hey it's not easy to get! part of the fun of logic puzzles (for me at least) is spotting those tricky arguments

well, part of the fun and part of the difficulty

puzz.link/p?fillomino/20/36/…

3:24 AM

i feel bad that i am so bad at spotting them and need bobble to explain it patiently :p

^Melon's #9 Fillomino

ah, that one's a fun one

as you can see from the URL, it is 20x36

holy goodness

don't worry, it's actually a pretty smooth solve!

3:25 AM

it's also hilarious

yeah there are some fun moments too

being big lets it do so many fun things

i am terrified

gotta finish #8 first, though

oh don't worry i don't think it's the hard kind of fun moment

it's the "wait, this isn't possible? unless... oh you're sneaky" kind of fun moment

those are the best kinds of deductions

3:27 AM

i absolutely love when a puzzle is built so well that you can tell that there's a certain realization that the creator was guiding you towards. even better if that realization is "oh no something ridiculous is happening"

it's so fun :D

I've tried to build funny things into my grid-deductions but I'm not sure I succeeded at making some anything but hard

the Bobblie Statue Park, for example

there's a moment where I force you to stop and consider global arguments

I'm not sure if it's a fun moment, it's just hard

it's a difficult thing to pull off well

Your tetro-sweeper had so much fun logic in it, that was my favorite of yours that contained a "oh no that doesn't work unless.... oooh" moment

second one, I presume?

3:30 AM

i tried to do that in my statue parks and variants, but i think the place i pulled it off best was in my heyacrazy puzzles

i think it was the second one yeah

but they were both really fun and creative :)

i'm done lashing out irrationally about global deductions, i promise

you are favorite birdy <3

it's fine! global deductions can be hard

<3

i must admit i may need more beak-extracting on #8

show what you have so far?

3:41 AM

you have two ~~highly competent~~ helpers

oh wait, i just realized i can extend that top 5 right?

yep

the second i hit "upload" i was like ohhhHHHH

ah, the power of posting

from there, though....

3:44 AM

the 5 in the corners can only go one into the edges

because otherwise they isolate a group of 4 cells, and there is the "pushing around" that Deus showed

yeah - keep in mind how the outer border will have to resolve! the cycle must collapse in one of two ways

ahhhh, yeah

that makes sense

i do love the satisfying way the middle is flowing now, it's lots of "the threes cannot touch so i can draw walls, now these threes cannot touch so i can draw walls, and now these threes cannot touch...."

there's just a spiral of logic

yep, it's nice!

so now i'm here

5s on the middle-right

3:54 AM

they can't go left because of the vertical 5s

nor can they go more than one right

so.... they must go down ahhhhh

and suddenly...?

and suddenly DEDUCTIONS

toothpaste!

oh my goodness that literally just unlocked the whole rest of the puzzle

that is so satisfying

the puzzle sets up the border 3s at the very start, and takes forever to finally show you how they resolve

3:57 AM

i retract my previous frustration, this is a very well-designed puzzle once you get past the global

this puzzle has a story arc

2

it literally does

frustration at first, then a slow build to absolute perfection

cue bobble grumbling about tics

D:

:(

3:59 AM

i'm just stressed about school is all

hopefully they get better :(

i did the thing

you left one 5 out

how dare you

you did the thing!

i dare

:D

and now it is time to do the Much Bigger Thing

4:02 AM

time for Gigantic Thing :D

thank you for making the puzzlink for me, bobble

(yeah, that was very nice!)

bobble is best crown <3

bobble is crown who remembers how long it took to copy that grid out the first time

so many squares ahhhhhh

just start somewhere, if you get stuck there look elsewhere

4:09 AM

i have made progress, but oh my lord

(quietly flomps and is supportive)

gray! :D

my i flomp on top of the Gray?

flomp pile?

flompception

(tailhugs a bobble and a borg with one long swoosh)

4:13 AM

bobblorgception!

sorry... today is not being a great day >.>;

aw :(

does the nomcat need hugs

I am just overly tired...

would solving a giant fillo help?

puzz.link is above

4:16 AM

we are here to listen if you need listeners :)

Dec 12 '20 at 1:27, by Sciborg

We've turned every chatroom into a supportive therapy place and that's valid

therapy is important

oh by the way I got banned from editing again, this time on RPG.SE

that's the third time I have been declared a spammer

it must be a new editor filter to keep new people from making large edits? not sure

i don't personally know any RPG.SE mods or i would ask them

there's no way to reverse it, I checked with Chem time #2

my edit doesn't even get saved

4:19 AM

jeez. is it a permanent ban or temporary?

not permanent, but I won't be able to suggest for a while on RPG and for a few days anywhere else but here

not sure what to do beyond asking a mod what happened :(

it's automated, nothing to be done

A spammer?

for editing? o.O

I deleted an image and replaced it with a lot of Markdown (a table)

I apparently looked like I tried to insert a large ad into the post and vandalize it

4:22 AM

@Sciborg I am also tired because I don't know how to explain to my boss that we don't have enough staff to do the amount of expected work in the queue...

@bobble ... that is weird.

@Graylocke ohhhh no, that sucks. i feel that

i never know what to do in that kind of situation, it's not your fault that your department is understaffed so you shouldn't be punished for saying it.

but you worry that if you're the one who brings it up, you will be punished :(

is the fillo going well?

yup, fillo is going great

I actually edited a question!

Though pointlessly, probably ^^:

(Actually it was because bobble asked about not posting terrible images, and I wanted to prove that it doesn't take long to make nice images for free >.>)

yay for editing! :D

4:31 AM

I've never edited someone else's qn before ^^;

Once I realized I could fix other people's stuff I was off to the races

i worry too much about whether my edit would be an improvement or make the person mad

I just wanted to help because ... well... why NOT use a spreadsheet for a grid puzzle if you have no other tool -.-;

yeah - that would definitely be an improvement :)

(Besides I use them for most things ;p until bobble started weaning me off and onto puzzlink and penpa)

4:34 AM

don't stress about it, it was a good edit!

No I am not stressed... I don't want to fix everyone's puzzles though -.-; TBH - I would have asked for the chess one to be written in English for normal non-chess players -.-;

hey i've used spreadsheets to make grid puzzles - puzzlink and penpa are great but not perfect

Penpa has been glitching a lot for me recently

Every time it starts I have to close the tab and open it again, and then sometimes it will break down immediately again, and then I... agh

Fillo update?

still going :)

there is a lot of logic that is kinda like "there is a little nook that cannot be a 1,2,3... because those are all its neighbors. therefore i can draw Ghost Pieces"

I especially like when there are deductions "This can't be X, so it must extend one more. Oh, but now it touches an X+1, so it can't be X+1 either. Extend one more" and so on and so forth

4:44 AM

Yup, this puzzle has tons of that and i love it :D

there's also a hilarious deduction with the vertical columns of 8's where you realize they cannot touch

@bobble this is what I found in the cipher one Deus helped me with... suddenly "wait... this isn't this, or this, or this..."

I like those deductions, they always have a delightful surprise about them.

any sort of deduction that just keeps chaining to give you something ridiculous is always fun

and the ghost polyomino that refuses to stop growing is one of my favorites of that type

yup, i love how this puzzle is full of ever-growing ghost minoes

yeah - I also liked the secondary part of that where you find a ghost-limiter

and then you need to work out where you can put in some other ghostbuddy

ghost pieces are definitely the theme of that puzzle, and it's executed very well

4:52 AM

sounds like I need to do this one as a clam down exercise ^^;

or I guess calm down...

it is proving very calming so far, no crazy logic or anything - just flowing

see, like i said, the logic isn't super tricky - it's a very pleasant puzzle

i doubted you, i apologize - this is quite pleasant :p

the slowly growing ghost pieces are my favorite bit

lol - I love the backchatter in my brain

"sorry - I can't have you guys meet" (builds a moat)

"this meeting cannot take place or the world would be destroyed" (aggressively draws a wall)

5:00 AM

"yikes... you are too big... wait you are still too big... where on earth are you going..?"

"you're.... you're growing..... stop groWING OH LORD"

Some of the bits I have done became very Katamari (on the edges)

oh my god, there's an absolutely hilarious bit where i slowly teased out a ghost piece to be 4, 5, 6, 7... and was so confused like "this can't possibly fit" but then realized with growing hilarity that it connected to a nearby 8

beautiful

i love this puzzle

this puzzle type is just... fun

you can never turn back

5:04 AM

it is SO much fun

"the moats and the crosses", the tools for avoiding warring factions lol

hmm I think I made a mistake o.o;

show us?

we shall attempt to perform beak-extraction

for Gray it's called tail-extraction

Gray is nomcat, you are birdy

ahh, true

tail-extraction protocols, commence

5:12 AM

uhm...

so the top row 3 must go down, then avoid its enemies...

why can't the lines connect with the 7?

and they both run away from each other...

are you sure the top row 3 goes down?

OH DUH

you have found the Problem!

5:13 AM

I was like "this isn't a 1 or 2 or a 3..."

yeah as soon as I went down I went "wait - that can't be right"

but I forgot that 7 was enough ^^;

you have extracted your own tail :D

I realised I had wrongfully imprisoned a 4 in a land too small for them <nods>

the 4s are small folk and must have room

well if one's tail is stuck, it cannot be nommed properly

then Gray would not be a nomcat!

nomfloof

5:17 AM

snows are tailnom champions.

this is factual and has been proven by serious scientists in lab coats

were the scientists human?

it was a diverse part-cyborg, part-bobblie, part-nomcat team

was there a tree? or a square?

woah - hello invisible 8 o.o;

5:19 AM

yup, that was the goofy 8-deduction i mentioned :P

i absolutely LOVE it

it was war of the 7-tribes with a huge no man's land and then it's suddenly wait how does ANYthing fit in here...

your descriptions of numbers on a grid are somehow very evocative and I am tempted to write a short story/poem o_O

I love this puzzle type, I actually laugh out loud when these things reveal themselves...

I am either going crazy or this is just a good puzzle type... or both ;p

gray is a very same nomcat

oh!

that's a surprising outcome too lol

5:24 AM

*sane

darn my typos

(I was referring to the bowling alley of 8s that I suddenly realised was there)

the 8 bowling alley is hilarious

this puzzle has so many gems

it is constantly playing with the assumption that big numbers near each other will join

"you THINK they will join..... but you are wrong" - this puzzle

phew - forgot that invis bois can also be 3 cats in a trenchcoat.

#nocontext

5:36 AM

the GIANT 'un?

the BIG 'un

No this was a 3 that was actually a 1 and a 2... sneakily -.-;

i've had YouTube autoplay starting from a computer science video rolling in the background for white noise while i solve this, and the algorithm just randomly threw at me the Tom Scott video where they launch garlic bread into space

i am pleased with the algorithm's decision

hehe <3 Tom

i never found him for years until i randomly discovered he was this neat computer science guy in my junior year of college, and i started watching his videos to see if he was any good. i ended up staying awake until the next morning binging them all

5:44 AM

oh tom scott is fantastic

he is a treasure.

one of my favorite videos on YouTube is still his video about APIs where he puts the view count in the title, it moved me

i can never explain why but it's so meaningful

everything we build will break someday and that's okay

(yikes - the scale of this filomino... I pause every now and again and realise what a tiny piece of the world I have been looking at ^^)

some other youtube channel recommendations in the vein of "people get excited about random vaguely-thematic-to-their-channel topics and it's neat":
- matt parker, aka stand-up maths (math)
- jacob geller (analysing video games as art)
- people make games (various types of games)
- lowest percent (speedrunning shenanigans)

oooh, people make games is a great one. i'll have to check out the other two

added one more! lowest percent is also great

5:56 AM

lowest percent! i love speedrunner history youtube, it's such a cool niche

love those :)

also bobble - i found the Big 'Un and it was definitely a Big 'Un :p

If we're recommending YouTube channels, Primer has some beautiful videos with pastel blobs that explain evolution, economics, voting systems, and life

ooh, primer is great too

Primer is amazing

5:58 AM

the blobs move around and make graphs :D

(also how goes the fillomino-ing)

the little blob creatures are hilarious, i love when he's casually describing them stealing from each other in the hawk/dove video