Ash

@RedwolfPrograms because a) it's more visible, b) it allows for more polyglots and c) it's more easily typeable (it's built into the Mac keyboard and keyboards such as SwiftKey for mobile have it)

Redwolf Programs

I like it because it's less visible, actually. It seems more "white-space-y" than a pilcrow to me

I've already prioritized code page aesthetic more than ease of typing, no need to start now :p

Lyxal

You've created a codepage that has strength in its readability. Don't screw it up with a character that'll weaken the pack

Redwolf Programs

I like ↵ for newline; it's specifically intended to represent a line feed, whereas pilcrows aren't really used much anymore and I'm sure a fair percentage of people wouldn't intuitively know what it is

Lyxal

I think it's the other way around

If you go to Ms word and select whitespace highlight, pilcrows are newlines

The left pointing arrow is a tab

Redwolf Programs

5:30 AM

I also think using a pilcrow would be less useful for polyglots, as I'm just using ↵/¶ as a constant for a newline, but Jelly (and probably others) use it as an actual newline

Lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms you could always polyglot with vyxal

It uses ¶ for newline

Redwolf Programs

I doubt very many people are insane enough to try polyglotting with golfing languages :p

Actually never mind this community's collective sanity is lower than my expectations

codegolf.stackexchange.com/search?q=polyglot+05ab1e

Lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms anything that helps you win

@RedwolfPrograms I'm not going to bully you into sleeping, but isn't it late where you are?

If you're too tired for conversation, don't feel you have to stay

Redwolf Programs

Only 23:40, usu. I'd go to sleep in twenty minutes or so

Lyxal

Oh okay

Coolio

Got any ash examples/snippets showcasing language design?

Redwolf Programs

5:39 AM

+_2uṂ∵4×2

Lyxal

Erm, what's it do?

Redwolf Programs

That adds _2 (negative two), and the sum of numbers ranging from 1 to 4, each multiplied by two

Took me a minute to type that :p

Lyxal

You need 3 bytes for range [1, 4]?

Redwolf Programs

No, ∵4

Lyxal

Two bytes for the sum?

Redwolf Programs

5:41 AM

The Ṃ is map

Actually you could shorten the last two bytes to the double operator

But it doesn't show off the implicit arguments as well

Lyxal

And here I was thinking that you'd decided to use vectorisation

Redwolf Programs

In real life you'd probably use a range with step, but I needed a simple example for map

Lyxal

Vyxal, 2N4ɾd∑+

Same thing but one byte shorter

Redwolf Programs

I'm not entirely set on ∴ and ∵ for ranges

Lyxal

Actually, 2 bytes shorter

Redwolf Programs

5:46 AM

JS, 2 bytes: 18 :p

Lyxal

Wow original

Polyglot with vyxal, 05ab1e, jelly, keg, ohm and a lot of golfing languages

Redwolf Programs

Also looks like the double operator is t, which also repeats an array twice, so actually I think +_2ut∵4 would work (instead of mapping and doubling, just duplicate every array item before summing)

Or if that's cheating +_2uṂ∵4t does the same thing as the original but with double instead of ×2

Lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms using built-ins the way there were designed isn't cheating

Redwolf Programs

Yeah, but the goal of that bit of code was to show off mapping, so doing it the clever way ruins that :p

Lyxal

Vyxal, 6 bytes

Why not just subtract 2 instead of adding negative 2

Redwolf Programs

5:53 AM

I'd been using that program to test my parser

Lyxal

Ah

Redwolf Programs

I guess -t∵42 is the shortest you could get it without cheating and using constants. I got rid of the sum (u) since that's done by the cast from array to number.

Lyxal

You mean casting an array to number sums it?

Redwolf Programs

Yes

Lyxal

If so, that's kinda unintuitive

Redwolf Programs

5:57 AM

What would you recommend?

Also I did add a stack, but it's going to be more like a register for storing temporary values than a major feature of the language.

Lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms Try it Online!

@RedwolfPrograms like 05ab1es global array?

Redwolf Programs

I think summing an array is more common and useful than concatting the digits, though

Lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms except it ain't concatenating anything

It interprets the list as base 10

Redwolf Programs

Oh neat, that's a way more elegant way of implementing my current "integer from array of significant figures" operator

(Also I've got separate integer and float types now, but they're pretty much identical for most things)

Lyxal

this is concatenation

Redwolf Programs

6:02 AM

Three bytes?

Lyxal

Vectorise cast to string and sum

I don't remember which built in I made do straight up concat

Okay nvm I found it

Ĵ

Redwolf Programs

For Ash you'd probably do cast to string, which concats. If you were using it for an arithmetic operator you could stop there since it automatically casts to number, for anything else you could just cast to number

Lyxal

++69*69

Haha funny number program

Redwolf Programs

I'm planning on having ten code points dedicated to multi-byte constants (ɓ to ȥ).

Also I just noticed an extremely emabrassing mistake on my code page

Lyxal

Lol

Here's me thinking it was something worse

Like having too many characters

Or not actually using the characters present

Redwolf Programs

6:09 AM

I've actually still got quite a few unused code points

Like @...what the heck am I supposed to do with @

Lyxal

Swap order of arguments of a built-in?

Index?

Comment?

Quotify a string?

Redwolf Programs

Actually the first one is a good idea, I'd been meaning to add an operator like that but forgot

Lyxal

The first one I stolen from dennis

That's what @ does in jellt

*jelly

Redwolf Programs

I'll probably use ∷ or ¡ instead of @, though

Lyxal

But then you still don't have anything for @

Redwolf Programs

6:13 AM

I'll make it print 1

Lyxal

that's extremely useful

Redwolf Programs

Useful for challenges that just require output of some length (or infinitely) and don't care what it is

Lyxal

like, it can be used to solve every single challenge

not

Redwolf Programs

Also potentially good for debugging

Lyxal

how is printing one good for debugging?

wait is that how you debug things? by printing 1?

that's really primitive if you do

Redwolf Programs

6:15 AM

Usually it's something more informative than 1 :p

Actually with implicit arguments there's no need for it since the normal print would work :(

Lyxal

see

i told you

useless

Also, Nth digit of pi should probably be a two-byte command

Redwolf Programs

Why?

Lyxal

okay tell me how often you need to index pi?

and tell me, how many of the top 5 languages on the elo list have index pi functions?

Redwolf Programs

I don't have any other two byte operators, and I can overload it to do other actually useful things.

Lyxal

in fact, the top languages don't even have built-ins for indexing pi

Redwolf Programs

6:20 AM

Oh here's the latest-sort-of version of my operators

Yeah but most of the top languages have infinite lists/generators

Lyxal

Jelly doesn't have pi to infinite decimal places

admittedly osabie (and by extension, ohm) do

Redwolf Programs

Any ideas for useful things to replace it with?

Lyxal

well what character is it?

Redwolf Programs

Err...π

I had wanted to replace it anyway

Lyxal

Pi function

In mathematics, three different functions are known as the pi or Pi function: π ( x ) {\displaystyle \pi (x)\,\!} (pi function) – the prime-counting function Π ( x ) {\displaystyle \Pi (x)\,\!} (Pi function) – the gamma function when offset to coincide with the factorial Rectangular functionYou might also be looking for: ∏ n = 1...

Another pro-tip: the top 4 glangs have trig functions as two byte stuff

Redwolf Programs

6:26 AM

I'll probably pick a new character to put there on the code page. No need for a prime counting function.

Lyxal

APL has trig stashed away as a dyad

"dyad" in that you pass a number to choose the function

I don't recall what number does what off the top of my head, but I do know it's called something like the circle operator

Redwolf Programs

Maybe calling those functions "combinations", "permutations", etc. would make more sense as that's their main use. The trig functions are just overloaded on because why not.

Lyxal

z needs a better overload for strings

because a already does the job

Redwolf Programs

Actually it's completely useless. s already joins with the empty string.

Lyxal

so why do we still have z?

you know what it could be?

Redwolf Programs

6:31 AM

No idea, I'll replace it.

Lyxal

zip

Redwolf Programs

Zip?

Lyxal

zip two lists together

wait you don't know what zipping is?

Redwolf Programs

I swear I had an operator for that

Lyxal

hmmm

interleaving is the same

W

Okay here's a unique suggestion for z

only one other esolang has this function

z: Zipmap

you won't find that in any of the top 5 langs

only Vyxal

Redwolf Programs

6:33 AM

Does that take two arrays and map with both of them as input and a single array as output?

Lyxal

to zipmap something is to zip a list with a function applied to it

zipmap([1, 2, 3], double) = [[1, 2], [2, 4], [3, 6]]

Redwolf Programs

Oh, that's cool

I'll add that as Ọ though

Lyxal

zipmap("abcd", ordinal value) = [["a", 97], ["b", 98], ["c", 99], ["d", 100]]

@RedwolfPrograms but then what will you make z?

The whole point is that you have something useful for z

Redwolf Programs

I need to make room for another operator, so I'll move an existing one to z

Lyxal

oh okay

cool

Redwolf Programs

6:37 AM

new_operator([1, 2, 3], [2, 4, 8], +) = [3, 6, 11]

Lyxal

Why does ¬ not do 1/x for both ints and floats?

How do I get 1/x of integer?

@RedwolfPrograms that's called vectorisation

you're finally listening to me!

More specifically, element-wise vectorisation

Redwolf Programs

For 1/x of an integer, one of two 2-byte methods

Actually just ¬fx

Lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms so why 1 byte float 1/x?

I have to convert my integer to a float to get 1/x?!?

I might as well just write /1x

Redwolf Programs

I can't think of many times you'd need reciprocal, esp. for an integer

Lyxal

don't mind the fact that almost every golfing language in the top 20 languages has a built-in 1/x for integers

Redwolf Programs

6:40 AM

The thing is, I don't really expect the integer type to be used for very much math

It's mostly going to be for booleans and bitwise operations

Lyxal

what, so 1 actually evaluates as 1.0?

Redwolf Programs

Actually I'm not sure

Maybe I should just have a dedicated 1/x operator

Lyxal

because if 0-9 evaluates as integers, you can bet your bottom dollar that they're gonna be used for very much math

@RedwolfPrograms see, now you're getting somewhere

Redwolf Programs

Overloaded it to Ḥ

(I'm running low on unary number operators :p)

Lyxal

monads?

Redwolf Programs

6:45 AM

Yeah. I'm using arity rather than adicity since despite being sort of tacit, I don't really think of it that way

Lyxal

erm, monad doesn't have to mean tacit

def function(x):
    return x

That's a monad in python

a single argument function

Vyxal has 68 monads

I clearly need to add 1 more

actually i cant count

Redwolf Programs

Yeah, but you usually see adicity being used for tacit stuff, and arity for functions.

Lyxal

i have exactly 69 monads

@RedwolfPrograms monad is a measure of arity

Redwolf Programs

So is unary

Arity ~ Adicity, but one's greek and the other's latin

Lyxal

reject latin return to greek

also, happy saturday!

Redwolf Programs

6:51 AM

Nooooo

Lyxal

what?

Redwolf Programs

I strongly dislike weekends

Lyxal

you don't like weekends?

well you're 52 minutes into the weekend

caird is 7 hours and 52 minutes into the weekend

Redwolf Programs

Saturdays are okay because other people are happy, but sundays are nothing but chores put off all week and waiting to go back to school

Lyxal

raze is 12 hours and 22 minutes into the weekend

and I'm 17 hours and 53 minutes into the weekend

so says my list of world clocks

idea: have a built-in to apply two functions "parallel"

that is, @+-34 -> [7, _1]

Redwolf Programs

7:02 AM

Oh, that's cool. I'll do that.

Lyxal

@*++69*69 -> [15 + 54, 15 * 64]

@ABxy -> [x A y, x B y]

stolen straight from mathgolf and vyxal

Lyxal

11:06 AM

Ṇạ{ṗN}

Should theoretically print numbers 0 to 10 maybe

Hey I've an idea...

A context variable

And it stores the last value within the current scope

So like, if program execution branches into a function, the context variable is the value(s) passed

It'd be an explicit nilad ofc

{+NN}4

That could be a sort of double function

If that's how functions work

N is replaced with the value passed to the context of the function

Hmm what else can I practise solving?

(note that the context variable suggestion is just a suggestion. Feel free to incorporate or not incorporate it as you please)

Next matter of business: how to quine

I know there's two parts: data and the printing part

ṗ"ṗ" is my initial route of inquiry

Although it isn't the quines, it's a start

ṗ%»"ṗ%»" could work if a) there was string formatting and b) » or some other symbol (I'm just using what's available on my phone) told a command to reuse its single argument

Like +»4 would be 8

But obv that requires language changes

So let's keep experimenting

Also interesting is the pretty print

But idk how id feed the string into both ṗ and ė

Hmm

P+U84*2+"P+U84*2+"

That kind of gets us closer

I think it prints "P+U84*2+

Which is one part of the quine

Almost

PČPd"PČPd"PČ

Assume Č is U+*842

That outputs "PČPdPČPd"

So that's a no

Hmm

I'll try again tomorrow

10.41pm is an unreasonable time to be quining in a not yet implemented language

And I should probably look deeper into quine theory

Because as I've said elsewhere: quines ain't really my thing... Fizzbuzz is.

Problem is that the frickbrick already exists

(i sometimes call fizzbuzz frickbrick because I've done it 11 different times on cg)

(and fizzbuzz gets old kinda quickly)

(frickbrick is much funnier)

Redwolf Programs

4:52 PM

@Lyxal I burst out laughing when I read frickbrick. I was drinking water. You almost killed me.

Haven't read all of that yet but N doesn't do what you think it does. Also your print 1 to 10 program should be Ṇ⁺ṗ, or Ṇ⁺ṗ}, or Ṇ⁺{ṗ}, or Ṇ⁺{ṗ₀}

I'm using the subscript numbers as function arguments, some arguments to the previous function, and some arguments to the program itself.

Razetime

I'm waiting for the tutorial

hopefully it makes sense

Redwolf Programs

It should be pretty easy to learn, although it's still too early to start on a tutorial

I'm changing my mind too often :p

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