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7:00 PM
Wedge of $\Bbb{RP}^\infty$ with itself. It's not obvious that the wedge of aspherical spaces is aspherical, but it's true.
 
That's what we were trying to justify.
 
It's sufficiently non-trivial that you should cite it away.
 
Oh.
 
Theorem of Ganea I think.
 
oh well.
 
7:02 PM
2
A: Wedge of aspherical spaces

user39082To answer my own question (in the setting of CW-complexes and thus also for smooth manifolds): According to Ganea Link to Ganea‘s paper the homotopy fiber of $X\vee Y\to X\times Y$ is homotopy-equivalent to $\Omega X*\Omega Y$ if $X,Y$ are CW-complexes. If $X,Y$ are aspherical, then their loop...

 
Also Mike, that action is not free.
5 hours ago, by feynhat
$S^1 \subset \Bbb C$ acts on $S^3 \subset \Bbb C^2$ as: $w \cdot (z_1, z_2) = (wz_1, w^2z_2)$. What is $S^3/S^1$?
 
Looks like a Lens space.
 
You really should not write that as $S^3/S^1$ without reference to the action, then!
 
The action is literally written in the same line.
 
I have two spheres, take a disk on each of those spheres, puncture those disks and then glue the two spheres together along these punctured disks. In formal terms and the previous notation, I'm identifying $\varphi(x)$ with $\varphi^{\prime}(x)$ instead of $\varphi^{\prime}((1-||x||)x)$
 
7:05 PM
You win. I blame Leaky.
There's one orbifold point of order 2. This ought to be called a teardrop.
 
The underlying space is $S^2$. And the north pole has isotropy group $\{\pm 1\}$
Yes.
 
Is Thorgott rediscovering the isomorphism $\pi_0 \text{Diff}^+(S^n) \cong \Theta_{n+1}$ for $n \geq 6$ish?
 
I'm just trying to understand the definition of a connected sum
nothing fancy
 
The definition of a connected sum is very fancy.
Topologically it was only shown well-defined in the 80s. :)
 
fair enough, though I'm not thinking about the well-definedness part
 
7:09 PM
He's wondering how you can have $S^2\#S^2$ be $S^2$ whether you reverse the orientation on the disk you cut out or not.
 
Okay. So what does it mean when they say an orbifold is a global quotient? I thought it meant that the orbifold can be written as M/G.
 
Ah ok. Well if you're just trying to show that there's a well-defined map whose input is two manifolds-with-embedded-discs and spits out a manifold, I'll leave you to it
@feynhat Finite G.
 
I'm complaining that a non-orientable thing can't be homeomorphic to an orientable thing.
 
Quotienting by a compact Lie group is a different thing.
 
I'm wondering if not turning one of the balls inside out makes a difference in the definition if one doesn't care about orientations
 
7:11 PM
oooohhhh.
 
Eg the suspension of $\Bbb{CP}^n$ is not an orbifold.
 
you don't necessarily get something non-orientable if you don't do the twisting while gluing, as my example shows
 
I was confused why the teardrop was not a global quotient when it can be written as M/G.
 
Sure so I assume Ted talked to you about CP^2 # CP^2 vs CP^2 # CP^2-bar.
 
what the construction accomplishes is getting an orientation on the connected sums that is compatible with the orientations on each of the summands and that's what will be violated by not doing the gluing the proper way
 
7:15 PM
Ted mentioned that. Ted is getting confuzled.
Mike came in at a very good time :)
 
What is $S\mathbb{CP}^1$? Is it a 3-ball with a diameter collapsed?
 
Isn't the suspension of a sphere a sphere?
 
n>1 for my comment to apply.
@TedShifrin No, it's my nap time now. They got 12 more minutes of me than expected.
 
Grrr.
 
Then I will not think about it. Because I don't see CP^n's.
 
7:18 PM
When's my turn for a nap?
 
@feynhat I just mean that the cone on CP^n is not of the form R^n/G for any finite group of isometries.
 
I agree that if we glue along a circle, we of course get a sphere. The question is what that has to do with your identification space.
 
That's what my identification space is, no?
 
That's an algebraic topology exercise, not so much a visualization.
 
7:20 PM
With or without the technical reversal?
 
without
 
Then I don't think so.
 
If you phrase the question here very precisely I can give an answer, maybe in a few hours.
 
Notice that when you draw the tube, the ends have opposite orientations as the boundary of the tube. Now are they both the orientation you get as the boundary of what's left in the sphere when you remove the disk?
 
>Asking Throgott to be very precise.
 
7:23 PM
Is Mike addressing @Thorg or @feyn?
 
The funny thing is that it's me asking it.
Thorgott. I think Feynhat's questions have finished.
 
no, they're not, but I'm not caring about orientation right now
 
LOL, oh. I told you Ted was confuzled.
 
this is just topological gluing
 
Doesn't matter. A non-orientable creature is not homeomorphic to an orientable creature.
 
7:24 PM
Are you just saying that $(S^n, D^n) \# (S^n, D^n) \cong (S^n, D^n) \# (S^n, rD^n)$? That's true.
 
But you get a sphere here, which is orientable. The orientation is just not consistent with the orientation on one of the summands.
 
The r means I precomposed with a reflection before including the disc.
Cong means "are diffeomorphic". When the disc doesn't agree with the orientation on your manifold, as observed, there's no natural orientation on the sum.
Or something like that.
 
@MikeMiller Here's the definition of connected sum I have: Let $M,M^{\prime}$ be two manifolds of dimension $n$ and take two charts $\varphi\colon B^n\rightarrow M$, $\varphi^{\prime}\colon B^n\rightarrow M^{\prime}$. We define the connected sum $M\# M^{\prime}$ as the identification space obtained by gluing together $M\setminus\varphi(0)$ and $M^{\prime}\setminus\varphi^{\prime}(0)$ via identifying $\varphi(x)$ with $\varphi^{\prime}((1-||x||)x)$.
Ted told me that the reason for this $(1-||x||)$ factor (which turns the ball inside out, essentially) is to ensure that the connected sum has a
 
If I glue in a backwards disk instead of a forwards disk, the resulting space fails to be orientable, so how can it be homeomorphic to a sphere? Ugh. I remember wrestling with all this stuff in grad school.
 
No consider CP^2 connect sum itself.
You get the wrong cohomology ring if you don't include the orientation reversal.
 
7:28 PM
@TedShifrin but the sphere in my picture obtained this way is orientable, still
 
@TedShifrin It doesn't fail to be orientable. It fails to be orientable in a way compatible with the orientations of your summands.
 
Yes, agreed.
 
In the sphere case the point is that you can flip the orientation of the disc by a reflection of the whole sphere.
 
That's why I mentioned to Thorg a while ago he was putting the outside of the second sphere on the inside :P
 
That's why you end up getting the same result. But CP^2 doesn't admit an orientation reversing diffeo.
 
7:29 PM
So what does the $1-||x||$ do geometrically if it's more than just for orientations sake?
 
Dude do the example.
It's for "orientations sake", yes, but that's because the connected sum with the orientation-reversed guy might be a totally different shape.
It's just that doesn't happen below dim 4.
 
Great elucidation +1 :)
 
I guess I don't know if you know cohomology rings, which you'll want to for this example
 
Yes, with intersection pairing.
 
Which cohomology? I only know de Rham cohomology, but I do know the wedge product gives a ring structure on the graded cohomology algebra in that case.
 
7:34 PM
Yeah, but you have to see it geometrically with Poincaré duality, I'm afraid.
 
@MikeMiller I don't see why this is true.
 
I can't even see CP^2, so that might be an issue
 
But also its 1AM, and my eyelids weigh a ton. So maybe sometime later
 
One at a time. But what a thrill.
@feynhat It's not obvious. Should I say?
 
The crucial thing is that if you blow up a point in $\Bbb CP^2$, you end up with an exceptional divisor ($\Bbb CP^1$) with self-intersection $-1$. So you have to compare $\Bbb CP^2\#\Bbb CP^2$ and $\Bbb CP^2\#\overline{\Bbb CP^2}$.
 
7:35 PM
De Rham is fine for this. I'll give you the algebraic answer.
 
I've never written down the deRham cohomology for blow-ups. :)
 
Every manifold $M$ and $N$ in what follows is oriented, and $M \# N$ means connected sum in the way with the factor where you're careful for orientation's sake.
For $M$ a connected, oriented, manifold of dimension $n$, $H^*(M;R)$ is [notation I'm making up on the spot] a connected oriented graded ring of dimension $n$: it's a graded ring with fixed isomorphisms $1: H^0(M;R) \to R$ and $[M]: H^n(M;R) \to R$.
Given connected oriented graded rings of dimension $n$, say $A$ and $B$, you can define their connected sum as follows: $(A \# B) = (A \oplus B)/\left(1_A = 1_B, [A] = [B]\right).$
You identify the chosen generators in bottom and top degree.
Then one has $H^*(M;R) \# H^*(N;R) \cong H^*(M \# N; R)$.
I'm writing this like an asshole, but I'm hoping it's clear enough.
 
I should take $A\oplus B$ to just mean taking direct sum in each degree for the graded structure, right? And then we essentially just reduce bottom and top degree to one dimension again.
 
Yeah
But in the way specified by the orientation in top degree
(In the obvious way in bottom degree)
 
right, cause a choice of non-vanishing top form is equivalent to a choice of orientation
 
7:41 PM
Compute this for $M = \Bbb{CP}^2, N = \Bbb{CP}^2$, and then compute this for $M = \Bbb{CP}^2, N = \overline{\Bbb{CP}^2}$. Prove that the resulting rings are non-isomorphic
 
@Fargle I'm not sure I understand. You're saying if we change the interval of $x$ from $\left[ 0,1\right]$ to $\left[ \frac{1}{4}, \frac{3}{4} \right]$, for example, the function should change?
Also I'm back. :D
 
That is, $H^*(\Bbb{CP}^2 \# \Bbb{CP}^2; R) \not\cong H^*(\Bbb{CP}^2 \# \overline{\Bbb{CP}^2}; R)$. That's definitely true for $R$ a ring containing $\Bbb Z$, though I think true as soon as $2 \neq 0$ in $R$.
The point is to look at the quadratic form $q(x,y) = [x \smile y]$ for $x,y \in H^2$.
I've said too much.
8 mins ago, by Mike Miller
@feynhat It's not obvious. Should I say?
I guess the answer to this was no.
 
Sounds annoying, but I guess I'll try doing this so I can at least see why the choice makes a difference algebraically
 
The point is that the orientation on each factor determines what the intersection product does (since you need the orientation to determine signs), so if you change the orientation on exactly one side (by not using that $1-|x|$ thing) you change the intersection product for exactly one side of the manifold.
But the intersection form is an invariant, so you get qualitatively different results.
 
@Naganite No. I'm saying you split the interval up to make rectangles on those pieces, like Apostol does in the diagrams at the top of page 4
 
7:53 PM
Oh, making the intervals $\left(\frac{x}{n}\right)$ smaller.
 
Forget about $n$ for a moment.
Just split $[0,1]$ directly in half.
What are your "upper" rectangles for this split, and your "lower" rectangles?
 
They can only have a height of $0$ or $1$, right?
 
Indeed.
 
That doesn't seem to change regardless of the interval being split.
 
Precisely.
So, is there a unique number between all lower sums and all upper sums?
 
7:58 PM
And there are a ton (infinite?) amount of rational and irrational $x$ regardless of where we are on the original interval.
Doesn't seem like it, I'd guess.
 
Right. What I'm getting at is that every lower sum is zero, and every upper sum is one.
 
Right, you either get 1 or 0.
 
So there can be no well-defined area.
This annoying and pathological function, therefore, is not integrable on $[0,1]$.
To circle back, that's what it looks like when you conceivably have another choice. If you conceivably have another distinct choice of area, then you didn't really have any notion of area to begin with.
 
So then there has to be some criteria for the area under a given function $y = f(x)$ to be well-defined.
 
That criterion is exactly "that there exists a unique number between all lower sums and all upper sums".
 
8:00 PM
And given that there doesn't seem to be any jankiness of that sort with $f(x) = x^2$, we don't have to worry about other potential areas too much?
 
Not just that---what Apostol's doing in those first few pages is exactly just proving that there is a number between them, and that it is unique.
 
(It's proven that there is only one for all $n\ge1$, that much I know.)
Yeah, that makes sense.
So then tracing back to the original point, the area was necessarily $\frac {b^3}{3}$ before being proven because $n$ being included would not make sense.
 
I wouldn't put it that way---I think Ted was right to harass me about that earlier.
 
From there he proves that $A \quad \text{necessarily} = \frac{b^3}{3}$ and not less than or greater than.
 
What I would say is that, given those formulae for $s_n$ and $S_n$, $\frac{b^3}{3}$ is literally the only reasonable guess.
 
8:04 PM
Ah, I see.
 
(And of course it's the only reasonable guess, because it turns out to be the area. >_>)
 
That much is true, haha.
 
That introduction is a teeeeeeeeeeeeny bit handwavy, at any rate. There is an important subtlety: the fact that the rectangles are of equal width is not a requirement. Apostol is ignoring a lot of possible upper/lower sums by not considering every possible crazy way he could have cut the interval up.
But it will turn out to be the case that he's justified in ignoring a lot of the chaff.
 
I mean in the guy's defense, it's the very introductory part, I just happen to be nitpicky because I wanna absorb as much as I can in the most intuitive way possible.
 
8:12 PM
Understandable. I had a similar problem with Rudin, a ways back. One of the early proofs in that involves a choice that seems completely out of left field.
Here, at least, you can look at the formulae Apostol gives for $s_n$ and $S_n$ long enough and say, "Okay, I get why he guesses that the area is $\frac{b^3}{3}$."
Heya @Balarka
 
Maybe the issue isn't as big as I make it appear to be, but a core aspect of my frustrations (or more precisely, what I struggle with the most), is understanding the intuition for why the mathematician arrived to where he was, and how I could potentially do the same.
As fascinating as some proofs and derivations are, if they start pulling crazy concepts out of thin air, it loses me.
And yeah, you're right @Fargle, thanks for the help.
 
No problem.
 
@Thorgott I'll have a look at your write-up of (co)area formula more carefully later
I don't know why I'm here I need to do tons of probability
Good bye
 
 
3 hours later…
11:29 PM
I was looking around again in Apostol's Calculus Vol. 1 book and going over this inequality:

$$\frac{b^3}{3} - \frac{b^3}{2n} + \frac{b^3}{6n^2} \lt A \lt \frac{b^3}{3} - \frac{b^3}{2n} + \frac{b^3}{6n^2}$$

The idea is to prove that $A = \frac{b^3}{3}$ is the only valid solution for any and all $n\ge 1$.
 
You have a clear typo.
Forget the $b^3$. I told you that before.
Just factor it out and divide and be done with it.
 
Wait, where's the typo?
And yeah I took it into account but I need it for the derivation this time.
 
No you don't.
You have the same thing on left and right.
 
Argh, see it now.
Well the idea was if one can prove that $A \not \lt \frac{b^3}{3}$ and $A \not \gt \frac{b^3}{3}$, then the proposition must be true, I think.
 
No. I already said twice the way to understand it. Will you listen the third time?
 
11:34 PM
I believe I understand the previous part; I was looking into the next step.
 
Huh?
 
I'm not confused on the part from before, this is a different question altogether.
 
Then why are you rewriting all this old stuff?
 
I was trying to provide context.
Is there a way I can reference the previous convo without having to type it out? Can a reply make do?
 
But you started with this contradiction argument which you say has nothing to do with what you're talking about?
 
11:38 PM
(Still new to this whole chat thing.)
 
Well, it happens that I remember, and I'm the one who's here ...
 
True haha, didn't see you until after the post. My bad.
I was wondering whether given the aforementioned inequality, we can do this -

$$ - b^3 \left( \frac{1}{2n} + \frac{1}{6n^2} \right) \lt A - \frac{b^3}{3}$$
 
That doesn't belong here, a @Balarka.
 
i'll spam elsewhere
 
Thank you.
Math spam is one thing.
What is that getting you, @Naganite?
 
11:42 PM
It was 4 player chess algebraic notation
Too terrible
 
I figured it was chess. Other than that, I ignored it.
 
And then given that we take $A - \frac{b^3}{3}$ to be less than $0$, we can replace the right side with 0 to get:

$$ - b^3 \left( \frac{1}{2n} + \frac{1}{6n^2} \right) \lt 0$$
And then solve for n from there.
 
What in the world are you doing, man?
Solve for $n$? What?
And why are you taking it to be less than $0$?
You're never going to learn calculus from Apostol at this rate :D
 
Showing that $A = \frac{b^3}{3}$ for all $n$ by contradiction.
 
As I said, I've told you the right way to think about this twice and you're not listening.
 
11:45 PM
Could you please explain it again then? I'll try to understand.
 
If you're doing it by contradiction, then you have to work harder than this. If $A>b^3/3$, you have to show that you can find an $n$ so that $A>S_n$ as well. Similarly if you have $<$.
The right way to do this, as I explained twice, is this: You observe that $b^3/3$ satisfies the inequality. Because $S_n-s_n$, which you can calculate, goes to $0$ as $n$ gets bigger, there cannot be two different numbers that satisfy the inequality. (Think about this pictorially. If you had $A$ and $A'$ both satisfying it, then $|A-A'|$ would have to be $\le S_n-s_n$ for all $n$. Draw a number line to see this.)
 
Yeah yeah, that makes sense.
I was doing that on desmos -
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/cphijjkd38
 
The calculation you should be doing is the formula for $S_n-s_n$, which is a sum of powers of $1/n$ and therefore goes to $0$ as $n\to\infty$.
 
Right. It's just cool how one can show the area without using limits.
It feels tangible that way I guess.
 
Well, we are using the limit idea when we show that there is a unique number sandwiched in those inequalities for all $n$.
Archimedes understood that.
 
11:55 PM
So the limit comes in when we say that the area being valid for all $n \ge 1$ means it is the true area "at" $\infty$?
 
The limit of $S_n$ gives you the area, same for $s_n$.
 
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