TRPG General Chat

A. B.

00:03

Oh, well, if anyone else here happens to know anything, even a small hint about where to look, do pass it on! I seem to remember having searched for various combinations of "autism, RPG" and such-like from time to time, but without much luck.

BESW

When I went looking for Pasifika/RPGSEA spaces, I started by identifying TRPG creators who made things for those spaces, and I followed them on social media. By seeing where they were sharing things from, I was able to build a map of the kinds of spaces they were in and where I might be welcome.

A. B.

@MarkWells I've known groups that can't even remember to schedule the next session. :-P

BESW What is "Pasifika/RPGSEA", and how do you "identify people who make things for those spaces" before you know what "spaces"? * scratches head *

BESW

Pasifika is used to indicate Indigenous peoples from the Pacific ocean, and RPGSEA is similar but for people from South-East Asia. So I looked for games by and for those groups.

19 hours ago, by BESW

Games of #RPGSEA a collection by Role Over Play Dead. Showcasing just a few of the diverse and original RPGs and larps created by the vibrant Southeast Asian scene!

By following them, I found their online spaces.

Projects like Islands & Aswangs and creators like Dee Pennyway and Pammu are actively broadcasting inclusive community spaces online.

For neurodivergence I might look at Amr Ammourazz (Twitter, itch.io), who is a vocally autistic TRPG creator.

Like any research, the first results are mostly just gonna help refine and maybe even redefine the search parameters.

rh16

00:27

Is this room an appropriate place to ask for advice/resource recommendations about something that may be too broad for a question on the main site?

BESW

Sure! Can't promise we'll be helpful but we can try.

rh16

I'm a very green DM running a campaign of mostly unexperienced players and we've just had an unexpected PC death in combat at level 3. They player who died has never player D&D before and I don't want it to negatively effect peoples attitudes towards the game

GcL

@rh16 Roll up a new character. Integrate them ASAP. I find it useful to have the player state why the new character wants to or needs to work with and help the existing group as a prerequisite for approving the character.

Heck, you can ask the players for help figuring out how to get the new character into the narative.

rh16

I've been browsing the [character-death] tag looking for advice on keeping everyone feeling positive after a PC death but I couldn't find anything. Is there a good Q&A or other resource for handling that well

linksassin

@rh16 Alternatively let resurrection be a story line. With a temporary character until they get to a point where they can save their character.

GcL

00:33

Do they want to meet them in a tavern? Find them trapped in a caved in part of the dungeon? Find them doing the main quest on their own with little hope of success and very happy to find others doing the same thing?

Shalvenay

hey there @linksassin

linksassin

I like to let the player take over a cool NPC ally or something until they decide what happens with the original.

@Shalvenay G'day hows it going?

rh16

@GcL That's useful advice, thank you. The session had gone on for a long time at that point, so I decided to end it there so I could have time to think (and the player could too)

MikeQ

@rh16 So your goal is to keep up player morale?

rh16

@MikeQ Yeah

MikeQ

00:34

(before we start suggesting 100 random things, we should identify what this user is actually trying to achieve)

GcL

An early death of a character can be a good thing. It really points out that the characters can die in this endeavor. Makes the story more intense.

linksassin

@rh16 That's a good call. Players are often upset in the moment but after a bit of time they get excited about the new character or the story of bringing their old one back.

GcL

Just have a decent way of getting the players involved in moving the story forward. Ideally, people should be invested in developing the story and seeing how it turns out.... characters might come and go.

rh16

I'm worried it will drop because most of the players haven't played an RPG before, and might find it discouraging; keep them from getting attached to their characters

linksassin

@rh16 I've found the opposite actually. My players have become more attached and put more value on their lives following the first death.

MikeQ

00:37

No no, it's a completely valid concern. I've learned to be detached with characters if I think the DM is going to kill them at any given moment.

GcL

I concur with @linksassin on this one. No safety net from the DM does make characters more precious.

I reward good role play. Even in death. Found it good to give the player the chance to utter last words. Can be very touching.

linksassin

@MikeQ True, it is a balancing act.

MikeQ

@rh16 Since you're focusing on an out of game factor (player morale), maybe have an out of game conversation about it. Explain that death happens in D&D, it's just part of the game. Then ask about their concerns going forward.

BESW

This is one reason I usually avoid systems where PC death is both random and significant.

GcL

"Run, you fools." That sort of thing.

linksassin

00:38

You want to give them the impression they could die but not that you are trying to kill them. At least in my games thats the tone I go for.

GcL

or "Everyone's okay? Yeah... everyone's okay. It'll be fine." close scene.

Shalvenay

@linksassin OK here, as for you?

BESW

But yeah, definitely talk with the players about how you're feeling and how they're feeling and what they'd like to see happen going forward.

linksassin

@rh16 Is this something the player's have actually expressed concern about or are you worried preemptively since this is the first time you've experienced it?

BESW

The "how attached should I be to my character" conversation is very important, for calibrating group expectations.

rh16

00:39

@linksassin yeah I've been trying to do, but I'm worried I've been making some mistakes

linksassin

@Shalvenay I'm pretty good. Work is busy though.

rh16

@linksassin worried preemptively

linksassin

@rh16 Have you talked to the player? How are they feeling?

rh16

@linksassin I've tried too, they are a very quiet person

They seemed pretty bummed out the day of, and I haven't seen them since

linksassin

@rh16 I find sending them a message the next day a good start. "Hey, I wanted to check in about how you're feeling after the session."

That's probably the best place to start.

BESW

00:42

[Followup to previous conversation: @A.B. I found this list of ND RPG podcasts, and I know a lot of podcasts have forums or Discord channels or other social spaces associated with them. If you find a podcast that makes you feel good, there's a solid chance you can use its social space as a foot in the door to finding games with similar values.]

linksassin

@rh16 I think you'll find that once you start talking to the player about where they want to go next they will feel better. A lot of new players don't realise that death isn't the end.

rh16

@linksassin Yeah I've done that, no response yet but that's not too suprising, they can be slow to respond and are very busy out of game right now

linksassin

@rh16 Alright, how long before your next session?

rh16

A week

linksassin

And how long since you messaged them?

rh16

00:44

Not long, was earlier today

GcL

A good massage usually helps.

linksassin

Ah ok. Give them some time to process then. The day of your first character death can be a better upsetting.

From a DM side you can start thinking of ways they can bring the character back if they want to.

BESW

I'm a big fan of "presumed dead."

rh16

@linksassin You don't think I risk cheapening the stakes? In our pre-campaign talk the players were keen to have stakes real and death a possibility, but I don't think anyone was expecting it so soon and the player in question, being quiet, didn't really say too much

GcL

@BESW Which is better than presumed red.

MikeQ

00:49

Could be a one-time freebie, since they're new. It's up to you and your players. So you'd have to discuss it with them.

rh16

@MikeQ yeah I'll have a talk

I'm feeling a lot less worried about it now, so thanks everyone who has chipped in

Greatly appreciated

BESW

@rh16 Stakes-wise, it's my experience that death is one of the most boring and tedious thing that can possible happen to a character.

linksassin

@rh16 Coming back doesn't mean no consequences.

@BESW Exactly. All that character building wasted simply because they died. Death is by far the least interesting consequence.

BESW

Being dead means you've got no more worries, your story's over, stuff just stops. That can be upsetting for a player who was invested in the character, but that upset usually results in either detatching from the stakes of the story even further, or becoming inconveniently cautious in ways that disrupt the story for everyone.

rh16

@BESW true, I guess its the most low-effort way to create tension in combat

BESW

00:54

Surviving? Well, you lost something, even if it's just time and pride.

rh16

Its the risk of it that is interesting, not it itself

linksassin

@MikeQ One time freebie is the way I work too. Every player gets one free res if they want it. Afterwards I use Matt Mercer's resurrection rules.

BESW

The opponent has gained an advantage in time, or position, or resources, which makes the stakes going forward even higher.

rh16

@linksassin What are Matt Mercer's resurrection rules?

BESW

A big obstacle to stakes-without-random-death, though, is that D&D-like games tend to default all conflicts to fights where death is what's at stake. If conflicts have clear stakes other than "kill the other guy before the other guy kills me," then the story opens up.

GcL

00:56

@BESW On the other hand, I ran a consecutive campaigns and the players figured out I wouldn't let the characters die. Really made for some absurd and story breaking decisions. The spectre of death works well if you're not playing at a table where the players are more invested in the characters than the story.

linksassin

@rh16 Matt Mercer is the DM for Critical Role, the biggest D&D live play show and he uses a cool homebrew ruleset to make death more meaning full at higher levels. reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/5q0qv5/…

BESW

If the PCs are proactive and engaged in the world, if they want to learn something or protect someone or achieve something other than the endless "kill to be better at killing" cycle, then their reluctance to take risks stops being about avoiding boring anticlimactic death: their risk evaluation is rooted in something more complex, where failure can lead forward to new story.

GcL

My goto recently has to make an few NPCs with distinctive personalities and are helpful in different ways. See which ones the players glom onto, then integrate that NPC into the main story in an integral way. The characters in the last campaign died to achieve the end goal AND let that NPC survive. The players wrote a peaceful epilogue for the NPC as well.

BESW

Games like Golden Sky Stories and Lady Blackbird are great examples of how deathless play can still be dramatic.

rh16

@linksassin Yeah I've been listening to critical role and loving it (in fact its my only real prior experience with D&D), haven't encountered theses resurrection rules coming up yet though

GcL

01:00

In Phoenix Dawn Command dying is a part of the story and mechanic for actually winning.

linksassin

@rh16 Are you watching campaign 1 or 2? It was much more common in campaign 1.

rh16

@linksassin I started 1, but switched to 2 when it started coming out because I liked seeing the characters grow right from the start

MikeQ

Unnecessary warning: Don't expect your games to function like they do in Critical Role

i.e. the mindset of "my game doesn't feel like Critical Role therefore (I am / the players are) doing something wrong"

or "it worked on Critical Role, therefore it will work in my game with my players"

linksassin

@MikeQ Absolutely. It's not really an achievable goal. There are other, more accessible streams that you could reach if @rh16 wanted to check it out.

rh16

@BESW That is some very useful advice, I may have some trouble integrating it at first as we're using a premade campaign but I'll certainly try

linksassin

01:04

@rh16 What campaign are you playing?

BESW

Yeah, a lot of podcasts edit out critical but potentially tedious parts of their table experience. I think it was Critical Role that recently said they use safety tools but don't show the safety tools being used.

rh16

Don't worry guys I'm very aware that critical role is exceptional

Hoard of the Dragon Queen

BESW

(I don't pay much attention to podcasts but the "doesn't show safety tools" thing floated across my feeds a while back.)

rh16

I've been very happy with how the game has been feeling and having a great time even though its no critical role

MikeQ

It's not "better" or higher quality. It's just different. Different players with different expectations. Whereas your games should be catered toward your players.

3

linksassin

01:08

@BESW I don't think it was critical role, they don't edit their show. But they definitely talk about what people are comfortable with outside of the show.

Shalvenay

Faerunian lore question: what's the snowiest city in Faerun? (I'm actually kind of wondering if it's something other than a place like Luskan, because Syracuse and Buffalo both beat the pants off of Anchorage when it comes to snow IRL most years...heck, there are probably some years where Anchorage's snow totals wouldn't even put it on the map for the Golden Snowball)

MikeQ

Icewind Dale sounds quite cold, guessing from the name

Shalvenay

@MikeQ that's the thing, I'm not after coldest

I'm after snowiest

and those aren't necessarily the same thing. see my point about Buffalo and Syracuse often being snowier than Anchorage

MikeQ

What about the Elemental Plane of Snow?

Shalvenay

(Syracuse in particular gets a double whammy of lake-effect snow and nor'easter bits)

linksassin

01:13

@rh16 Summary of the advice: 1) Talk to the player. 2) Focus on how this setback can move the story forward. 3) Death isn't the only consequence. 4) Get them involved ASAP, either temp character or get their new character in.

Shalvenay

@MikeQ hahahaha, gotta be on the Prime XD although that'd be funny if there were such a demiplane

rh16

@linksassin yeah thanks so much (and everyone else who weighed in) I feel far more positive about it now

linksassin

@rh16 Glad we can help. You're welcome to ask for help in here any time.

KorvinStarmast

@V2Blast I started reading PvP and Penny Arcade almost two decades ago. Kurtz moved from Dallas to Wash state ... I call 'em as I see 'em. Brand thing, and brand association. (Given the success of PAX, maybe a smart move by WoTC).

BESW

@rh16 Yey! I hope to hear about how it turns out.

rh16

01:21

@BESW yeah? Should I post here when I've had my talk with the player?

BESW

If it's something you can share with strangers on the Internet, yeah!

MikeQ

If you want. It's quite common for DMs and players to come to this chat to share good news / share bad news / poll for suggestions

rh16

I'm sure at leat most of it won't be personal stuff and its all pretty heavily anonymised, so yeah, I'll do that

Adeptus

@Shalvenay AFAIK they don't go into that level of detail

Medix2

01:41

I recently decided to switch from looking at newest questions to looking at active ones and WOW, I though V2Blast was everywhere before and this... This is something else

linksassin

01:52

@Medix2 rpg.stackexchange.com/users?tab=editors This tab really shows it.

nitsua60

@Shalvenay That's where I find myself wondering about the Moonsea. I don't have a sense of its scale, though, as for what sort of fetch it generates.

(Also, I know Toril is something like 10% larger in radius than Earth; I'm not sure if that, with a 24-hr rotational period, shifts wind-bands very much.)

BESW

Whenever I see "Moonsea," I want to pronounce is moonsie.

Adeptus

02:21

@nitsua60 There are a few novels set in the Moonsea Isles (two trilogies, I think? I have the first)

nitsua60

@BESW Is that like when you forget to do the bottom snaps on your infant's onesie?

BESW

Shalvenay

02:54

@nitsua60 yeah, it's a bit of an oddly-shaped body of water, too, which doesn't help matters at all

nitsua60

@Shalvenay But Fallen Stars seems too far south?

What's just south of the Spine of the World, over there on the northern stretch of the Sword Coast?

(Does this bring us right back to Luskan, where you started?)

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 yeah, that's good ol' Illusk alright

@nitsua60 you do have a point about the Sea of Fallen Stars proper possibly being too far south?

although the hydraulics between it and the Moonsea are weird

I guess not too weird given the whole Bosphorus situation IRL :P

but yeah. Moonsea would be the most logical place to get it, unless it ices over....

BESW

The Machine (by Adira Slattery) calls to you to be built, and it will call to the next person after you are gone. A serial journaling game of futility and invention!

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Wouldn't be a crazy mainsite question: "what's the snowiest known location on Faerun?" Might need to specify timeline a bit, in case having a giagantic hole to the underdark appear for a century and then reseal matters....

Miniman

03:13

@nitsua60 The Snowflake Mountains, obviously. It's right there in the name.

(See also Snowmantle, Snowdown. But the Snowflake Mountains are mountains, so it makes sense that they'd be snowier.)

linksassin

@Miniman Snowflake mountains has nothing to do with Snow. It just holds conventions for 21st century teenagers.

Miniman

@linksassin Badumtish.

trogdor

03:31

21st century teenagers, creatures of the night with motivations alien to our understanding :P

GcL

@trogdor I blame the cats.

trogdor

Lol

The cats taking over our society and teaching the youths unscrupulous morals?

Ben

wave

linksassin

@Ben bows

Ben

03:46

well, i dont know about all that just yet haha

linksassin

@Ben Was just a mark of respect. Don't get used to it :P

Ben

Haha. Just caught me off guard. Didn't know how to respond :P

Bows back

Maybe I've just been playing too much dark souls :P

GcL

04:01

@trogdor I blame the music they listen to.

trogdor

Those dang cats and thier music

Ben

@trogdor Well... I dunno about that

The Aristocats - Everybody wants to be a cat

►

trogdor

Lol

Miniman

@Ben I mean, if someone bows to you in Dark Souls it usually means you're about to be destroyed by a twinked build, so the best response is generally to switch off your internet.

Ben

@Miniman Precisely XD

@Miniman I play on console, so it is rare to find a twink build. But I did actually run into one just recently - a Vilhelm cosplay in High Wall. This was before I'd beaten Vordt

Actually managed to hold my own against him too. He ended up winning just because they kept using estus lol. But I was pretty with my efforts

Miniman

04:17

@Ben That's weird, with DS3 matchmaking. Had you picked up any special weapons?

Ben

Uhhh... not that I can think of.

The only things I'd picked up was the stuff from in-game... no one had dropped anything for me

In-game as in from regular gameply

trogdor

Vordt vordt vordt

Sounds like something Halo elites would say

Ben

@trogdor why does that sound like a laugh...

@trogdor Yes!

trogdor

XD

Miniman

@trogdor Halo x Dark Souls shared universe confirmed, I guess.

2

trogdor

04:23

Lol

Ben

@Miniman Post-DS2 pre-DS3

Also, I started watching Star wars with the GF using the Machete Order. She didn't hate it, so I am keen to see how the rest of the series goes :D

linksassin

05:03

@Ben "Didn't hate it" isn't exactly a glowing recommendation

Ben

Well, so far it's only been one movie.

Mark Wells

@Ben but Machete Order, so you started with the best movie :)

Ben

This is true. But from a newbies perspective, she doesn't know what is yet to come.

Mark Wells

I'm increasingly a fan of Space: 1977 order: Watch episode 4, then watch every other space-fantasy movie released in the next two years, assuming they're all in one big shared universe.

linksassin

05:18

@MarkWells Haha, why stop at two years? Just assume everything release since is part of the same universe.

Adeptus

@linksassin I've seen timelines of events from all scifi movies set in earth's then-future. Of course, that doesn't include Star Wars, because it's set a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

Ben

FLASH.... AAAA-aaah

V2Blast

@rh16 Definitely a challenging campaign to run! I think there are some good Q&As on the site about the campaign itself, if you have any trouble with the adventure. :)

@MarkWells lol

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06:25

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kviiri

06:54

Good morning!

Ben

Good afternoon!

BESW

Good evening!

kviiri

07:18

Timezones <3

Adeptus

07:29

2

kviiri

@Adeptus ot8r

trogdor

lol

AncientSwordRage

09:43

@MarkWells I'd love a Last Starfighter /Star Wars cross over

nitsua60

12:45

@Miniman I just assumed that was a Greenland/Iceland thing. (Also--hiya! How's life?)

Miniman

@nitsua60 Not too different, thankfully.

NautArch

@Ben he'll save every one of us!

@AncientSwordRage that would be amazing. And that may be a movie for my 8 year old!

SmokeDetector

13:00

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer (94): Confused about fighter's Two Weapon Fighting Style by Net on rpg.SE (@Rubiksmoose)

AncientSwordRage

@SmokeDetector what a strange blogpost

@Rubiksmoose hows does thats work as spam?

Rubiksmoose

@AncientSwordRage I'm not at all sure. Looks like some sort of machine generated gibberish. Maybe to keyword stuff a site and then throw ads on it?

Someone_Evil

If that isn't some bot operated entity I'd be very surprised, seeing as one of the blog entries was a 'suspended from ebay' email

AncientSwordRage

@Rubiksmoose could be

Rubiksmoose

I am not wise in the ways of the spammer though.

AncientSwordRage

13:07

@Someone_Evil I saw that, amazing

Rubiksmoose

Only in destroying them on this site XD

Someone_Evil

Isn't there some Art of War quote that is relevant here?

Rubiksmoose

> Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.

because it sounds awesome?

;-)

The Oracle

13:50

1

Q: How does the flag for unsupported answers get put on?

There has been a flag created for answers in need of support, but I'm unclear as to how that flag is placed. If we see something that needs support, what is the process for noting that? Obviously a comment isn't a bad idea, but many times people don't want to comment because they don't want to ...

discussion answers flagging

GcL

@TheOracle So we just add a post notice until someone swears up and down that they totally tried the thing for real and it works just as their answer stated before they attested to it?

NautArch

@GcL Honestly, I asked this because there was an answer that specifically stated they didn't have the experience.

Rubiksmoose

@GcL I'm not sure what part of that post could possibly be interpreted as this. This seems to me like an extremely bad-faith or at least unnecessarily provocative approach to this discussion. If you want to talk about it, we can, but let's not start it like that.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I honestly wasn't sure about when, or now even if, to bring things to the mods attention.

Rubiksmoose

14:05

@NautArch And that's an entirely reasonable question.

NautArch

And based on feedback, the answer seems to be more on the side of never.

Do you think I should add the specific question example or keep it broad?

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Keeping that particular question broad is probably best. It's a good reference for questions of that nature. I see no problem with you creating a specific question about it as well though.

@NautArch That isn't what I took or wanted you to take from that interaction.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I mostly didn't want to call out the answer(er) and make them feel targeted.

Rubiksmoose

I suspect you may have misread, 'cause I didn't say "don't flag anything". Just, save it for when it seems really necessary. Or put differently: "don't flag absolutely everything", we don't want to be inundated with cases comments can handle just fine. — doppelgreener ♦ 21 mins ago

There's a big difference between flagging 100% of every possible answer that could need a post notice (which nobody is currently really doing) and flagging none of them.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose And I see that, but in the specific case I had, it really seemed reasonable and the flag wasn't just declined, it included the line about"flags should only be used to make moderators aware of content that requires their intervention ".

and it felt like it did need intervention.

which made me doubt whether I should be doing it at all

Rubiksmoose

14:14

@NautArch Sure. (I'm looking into the flag to see the details)

Or trying to anyways. When was it?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose may 15 at 15:26

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I think I found it.

Let me come back to this. I've got some IRL work stuff to take care of. If you don't mind.

But the tl;dr is that we definitely want people to flag posts that need it.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose okeydoke. Would really appreciate feedback on why it was declined when the answerer stated they didn't have the experience.

GcL

14:32

@NautArch Vote to delete?

NautArch

@GcL had positive votes

On a funnier note, in Dead in Thay, last session the players decided they wanted to go to a certain area. They looked at their map and promptly proceeded into an area that does not get them where they want.

GcL

14:51

@NautArch Found it. Doesn't seem like a bad answer. Doesn't answer the question directly though.

NautArch

@GcL I guess my confusion is that after talking with folks in here and my comment to the question itself, direct experience with 5e and West Marches was a real requirement to be able to answer it.

And the answerer stated they did not have that experience, but a 'similar' experience, which may not actually be relevant because it's not the style.

GcL

Similar experience seems sufficient. It's not a bad answer. The suggestions seem solid. I'd like them to have a tl;dr at the top succinctly answering the OP questions directly, but that's something I always want.

NautArch

@GcL Okay, that was different than the general consensus here in chat. Which is fine, but different.

GcL

I haven't played every class/race combination in AD&D, 3.5, or 5e, but found playing a few gives similar enough experience.

Viewing WM style play as a series of one shots is a decent approximation. Especially if there's a selection of destinations and stuff to do available, or the table sort out what they're going to do then someone writes a story for it.

Actually, neither of the answers address what happens if the players reach the end of the session before the conclusion of that adventure.

NautArch

@GcL that's becuase I think the answer to that is they have to end the adventure at end of session. That's part of WM.

But WM has a very specific (i think) set play requirements, so not knowing them leads to a guess answer.

KorvinStarmast

15:02

@Ben that takes me back to about 6th grade. and years later, my kids also enjoyed that movie.

GcL

@NautArch If that's baked in and should have been understood as how it would affect 5e by mentioning WM, then I don't think the OP knows it either.

NautArch

@GcL I think they do. Their issue, in my assessment, is that they end up with a 5 minute adventure day and it skews classes.

So understanding and having experience in running WM with 5e seems to be integral to being able to answer successfully.

And I appreciate the counterpoint you are giving, by the way. It's just different than the discussion I linked to above.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch well, I hope you did not find my answer lacking in what you were hoping for.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Your answer seemed to show experience with WM.

KorvinStarmast

15:22

@NautArch That style is all that we ran for a few years before anyone called it West Marches. :-) I am hoping that Daniel Collins spots that question, I think that his campaigns are similarly run. (But I am not sure he does much 5e)

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast I was chatting with Ladifas yesterday who has experience and hasn't experienced the particular issue. Hoping that they put up an answer.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Yeah, I hope so. I wold love to be in a local group that did a WMN thing, but doing IRL D&D with strangers (I am cool with it) is something that my wife objects to. I was able to get away with doing it on line because that meant I was at home

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast heh. Yeah, the WM style looks pretty interesting.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Had a nice session last night but I messed up the encoutner math. (Not hard enough) Mike and V2 are in the group now. (We lost a couple of the regular players to RL ....)

For people like me, who started D&Ding with a bit of a wargamer bent, West Marshes style fits because if the party is mostly of like minded people, we get a lot of tactical thinking. If you get players who do not all buy into a particular style, I can see WM being a bit more complicated on some nights since some people do not, as a personality style, watch the clock.

Himitsu_no_Yami

@KorvinStarmast better not hard enough than too hard IMO

NautArch

15:27

@KorvinStarmast :(

@KorvinStarmast My group is definitely wargamer tactical style.

KorvinStarmast

@Himitsu_no_Yami Sometimes. When it is too hard, how the party breaks contact and gets away is a part of the game. ;-)

And here I sing the praises of the Fog Cloud spell ....

Himitsu_no_Yami

@KorvinStarmast true enough

I usually don't end up thinking about "how do we get away" so much as "how do we win this fight"

It's admittedly a problem

NautArch

Learning that there is a line between them isn't a bad thing. But that's only ify our table generally allows for that option. Our old DM generally didn't. There was no way out but through.

KorvinStarmast

@Himitsu_no_Yami I always have an exit strategy unless we are all in the mood of "You Only Live Once" (Plenty of my PC's have died a horrible death over the years).

@NautArch Hmm, that's the old "convention" mind set. It's a particular play style.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast Not a huge fan, but I've adapted. And now it's kinda our thing. But with the modules, it's not always actually an option. I end up reducing threats of encounters if they push on through rather than TPK.

kviiri

15:31

I have a bit of a problem with a playstyle where there is a clearly bounded set of viable solutions to a situation but it's not made obvious enough to the players

NautArch

@kviiri That's very much the old DM.

KorvinStarmast

@Himitsu_no_Yami I have mentioned this before, but KorvinStarmast was my first 5e character. He died a horrible death, and ended up being Ogre feces. So I rolled up a new one ... and got to play a Tempests Cleric. That was great fun

NautArch

New DM (who is on hiatus with the remote play) seems to be more open to alternative solutions.

Himitsu_no_Yami

@KorvinStarmast [F] for Korvin.

kviiri

A part of the appeal of "always fight unless stated otherwise" to me is that it cuts out the bit where we try to second-guess the GM's intentions for a given fight

Himitsu_no_Yami

15:33

I think the only time my character has actually died was one time at the end of ToA

KorvinStarmast

@Himitsu_no_Yami Heh, I had a hobbit (not a halfling, darnit!) thief in Keep on the Borderlands ages ago who got eaten by the mad hermit's cat/puma.

Mark Wells

@kviiri I'm trying to parse this. Do you mean it's not obvious what the viable solutions are, or it's not obvious that it's a bounded set?

kviiri

@MarkWells The former

Himitsu_no_Yami

The time my character died though was cus she got PWK'd

NautArch

@kviiri Is it also that there is often ONE SOLUTION, and if you don't do it, then you can't progress?

kviiri

15:35

@NautArch Well, no, not necessarily. I mean it's a different issue

If there's ONE SOLUTION and it's unobvious, then there's overlap, yes x)

NautArch

I think my problem was the above. And it was their solution or nothing.

and usually it meant just keep on keepin' on with the fight. Running away is not an option. For puzzles, it was their solution only.

kviiri

Basically I would like to not have to resort to trying to mind-read the GM's intentions for solving any encounter or similar

(I was using the idiom "second-guess" wrong, here's my ESL license officer)

Mark Wells

@kviiri nod. We had a situation where the DM gave us a puzzle (some magical hazard that's flying around the room wrecking people) and the solution wasn't discoverable in-game. We just had a random chance, whenever anyone cast a spell, of stumbling onto the magic word that disabled the trap. I guess we were supposed to cast spells, and notice that the DM was making a roll for something every time we did, and cast more spells until something happened?

(guess who was playing a character with no spells. go on, guess.)

kviiri

so if the game is meant to accommodate solutions other than combat, and might involve situations where the PCs are expected to not survive all the encounters they face by just powering through instead of turning tail, I'd like that to be made as explicit as possible and be given sufficient information in-game to determine whether or not I'm facing one of those encounters

because as we know, it's always the tiniest of foes that has some ultimate super fireball spell

KorvinStarmast

flame skull comes to mind ...

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15:46

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16:09

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Q: Can you use a bonus action between the separate attacks of a spell?

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AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast Did someone say Pizza Skull?

KorvinStarmast

16:39

@AncientSwordRage heh, nice segue

GcL

17:12

@AncientSwordRage The undead revenant of Pizza The Hut?

AncientSwordRage

I just realised they're a real foodstuff that I want so bad

it does not help I'm fasting right now, heh!

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20:27

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Q: What happens when a party's member uses an healing spell on an unconscious PC who has spell resistance?

The Spell Resistance (Ex) ability reads, in part: The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate. My PC fell unconscious in the middle of a fight, when the cleric approached me...

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Upper_Case

20:54

@NautArch Clearly my efforts to expand the scope of the question to include all preparation casters have failed

Given that both answers, and many comments, focus pretty exclusively on that

NautArch

@Upper_Case Well,the problem with that is you already have answers regarding your initial question about Wizards. So you expanded the scope after answers were already given.

But I still think that the issue of telegraphing is general enough to include that and putting a bounty on the previous question for fully addressing the issue and including your caster concerns is the way to go.

Upper_Case

@NautArch A single answer had been posted at that point, by a commenter who asked that very question in comments but did not wait for a response before answering (which is fine)

But I will think about if placing a bounty on the other question seems like it would be fruitful

NautArch

Yeah, i'm generally not a fan of asking for detail and then answering anyway before you get it. BUt it is what it is, and changing the scope after answers are in is problematic.

I do think a bounty woyuld be useful and fruitful, but see if others disagree with me first :)

a single gold badge can undo it, too.

Upper_Case

shrug

NautArch

but i honestly think it's also a playstyle thing.

Upper_Case

20:57

I'm not very optimistic about my ability to use this site very well, and hoping for/applying gold badge privileges seems well outside of my ambit

For sure, playstyle is a huge component of the issue I was trying to express

NautArch

some folks may like being fuilly prepared for encounters. others not. others like it sometimes. But the difficulty of picking spells and makingn decisions is fun for me as a player.

but because it's playstyle ,it also makes it pretty opinion-based, too

Upper_Case

Me too! Which is why I aim for providing information that allows for spell choices to be made other than semi-randomly

NautArch

and gold badge is just about the rep. Answer/ask enough well received posts and you'll get it :P

@Upper_Case Are your encounters totally random?

Upper_Case

But the initial response to my question was swift and negative, and it seems that my opportunity to ask after this has been burned

NautArch

if there's a story, they'll pick relevant spells., They'll also pick spells that fit their character.

But whether or not you're playing a fully optimized/minmax game or not is very table dependent.

I don't think you've burned anything. There's a pretty short attention span here.

Upper_Case

21:00

No, as a DM my encounters are carefully planned. But as a player, I encountered an unbroken string of encounters for which there was no information about upcoming challenges (could have been a product of the ToD module as well)

NautArch

True, but sometimes that's life as well. Not being perfectly prepared also creates challenges.

Upper_Case

So I spent my sessions shooting Firebolt, which is cool, but hardly captures the essence of a Wizard

NautArch

sometimes you can be, sometimes not.

I've only just started playing a wizard, and it's hard to know what spells to choose.

I went more with thematic and power. But we also don't do a lot of non-combat, so that makes it easier, too.

Upper_Case

And in that game, I never got to enjoy being a wizard, because I was always mis-specced in combat and outside of it

NautArch

Honestly, that sounds more like a stack question!

This may have been an X-Y problem.

Upper_Case

21:01

It's what I tried to ask, so it may be beyond me

NautArch

What about:

Upper_Case

That game's main problem was that encounters popped up with >8 hours to prepare, so there was zero chance to apply my wizard to it

*<8

NautArch

I have found at my tables that as a Wizard, the flexibility of the class is actually missing because I can never prepare the right spells. What can I do to feel like I'm playing the wizard I want to be?

gotta run, but i'll be back on in a few hours.

I did not check to see if there was a similar question, tho (hint hint)

Upper_Case

21:16

@NautArch Thank you for the suggestion (well, suggestions, which is even better!)

V2Blast

@Himitsu_no_Yami My variant human draconic sorcerer sort of died for narrative reasons in my DM's slightly homebrewed ending to HOTDQ (...he put on the white dragon mask). mechanically, the only time my character has really died is in BG:DiA at level 2 at the end of that dungeon; he made a deal with Zariel to come back. (looking at my session notes, apparently my character should maybe have died in session 2 or 3 or our homebrew Planeslip campaign too?)

Himitsu_no_Yami

In my case, a certain BBEG just pointed at my character and said "you're dead" and she died

V2Blast

oh my

Upper_Case

@Himitsu_no_Yami I've wanted a Linguist class for exactly that kind of situation ever since Final Fantasy Tactics' Mathematician class

I'd thought it was FFT, but now I'm not so sure...

Himitsu_no_Yami

The damn BBEG had TWO NINTH LEVEL SPELL SLOTS

Medix2

21:43

@Upper_Case I just personally felt that the linked question addresses (er, well, asks about) quite fully ways to convey upcoming events and prevent casters from getting screwed over by having "wrong" spells. And when that doesn't work, a forgiving GM should

Mark Wells

@Medix2 One of the issues I have with that (as a GM) is that I don't have a sense of what creative goal spell preparation is supposed to serve. Like, if the player didn't have a chance to scout out the situation a day in advance and so all their spells are unsuited to it, is the class working as designed?

Upper_Case

@Medix2 I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's opinion on the question's originality or overall quality. My issue was more that several comments immediately challenged the idea that Wizard alone was appropriate scope, and then decided that that invalidated the question rather than earning an extra line in an answer ("this applies to all preparation casters, including Wizards)

Even after edits, that seemed to be the only feature of interest to other users. Who then talked about that, and did not really address the issue the question was asking after

MikeQ

If the players aren't getting hints from the DM or setting, usually I've seen prepared casters allocate at least half of their spells for whatever seems generically useful

Upper_Case

My specific play experience which prompted the question was a long series of sessions in Tyranny of Dragons in which we were variously ambushed by enemies with resistances and guided into events where I had spells that would have been extremely useful but had minimal notice

Mark Wells

@Upper_Case Eeesh. That should not have happened. If you want to revert your edit and go back to your intended scope, I will vote to reopen it.

Upper_Case

21:53

@MarkWells I agree, it was not great and very much disengaged me from the character and campaign. On the other side of the screen, I was hoping to get some guidance on how to provide a better experience to my Wizard player

Medix2

@Upper_Case Yeah that's why I tried to address all casters in my answer

Upper_Case

I'll think about revisions to the question that may help, but the post itself seems pretty aggressively gutted and I'm not sure it's worth much effort to salvage after its poor reception (which, to me, did seem a bit... outsized)

@Medix2 I did appreciate your answer's thoughtfulness, as I so often find your answers to be

Medix2

@Upper_Case And if the question is reworded/reworked, I can always just delete my answer if it no longer applies

@Upper_Case I agree that some of that reception was... less than ideal and apologize for that, both in my own contributions and just in general

Upper_Case

@Medix2 It's a fine answer as-is. I was just hoping for more focus on low-level play (the issue is largely self-correcting for higher level casters, as more prepared spells means more variety in spell effects that can be produced at need), and ways to telegraph more than "lethal danger here", which was what most of the answers on the linked question seemed to focus on

@Medix2 Please don't feel any remorse over your comment or answer, both of which were helpful and very much in the spirit of the stack

Medix2

@Upper_Case *googles "remorse"* Oh nah, I'm good. Though you're right that I entirely ignored lower-level play, I'll think about how to address that more fully.

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