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12:08 AM
@TedShifrin yes
 
@topologicalmagician: Did you wonder why I asked?
@Hawk: You can put in the link but don't keep spamming about it, please.
 
well, if $p|ab $ and gcd(a,b)=1 then $p|b$
I mean $p|a$
lol
 
No, you don't have it right.
 
i mean gcd(p,b)
 
More generally, without the gcd assumption, what can you say?
 
12:10 AM
without the gcd assumption? Not quite sure
 
Think about it.
 
oh
if $p|ab$ then $p|a$ or $p|b$
 
Right.
 
so if $7|z^3$ then since 7 is prime, $7|z$
?
@TedShifrin
 
Yup.
 
12:17 AM
This is another question I have been thinking about, in most differential geometry books, a tensor f is defined as the k-linear map f(...) V-fold into R and a tensor product is essentially the space of these maps (so dual space). In algebra books I am reading the treatment is different, I feel as though they are related by the universal property,
If so, what should I set the map (take k = 2 for simplicity) \phi: V \times W \to M (R-mod).
 
In the case of vector spaces, it turns out to be the same definition. I'll be glad to talk with you about it, but I have to leave now for the evening. Perhaps another day.
 
I will try to enter chat when u are available. I feel this is 100% a simple application(s) of universal property (literally every theorem in Dummit following it is an application of the theory....)
 
@TedShifrin what about the cases $z^3 \equiv 1 (mod 7)$ and $z^3 \equiv 6 (mod 7)$
?
can i do it without factoring
?
 
I don't know much about number theory but that looks like a set-up for chinese reminder
but i have to leave too.
 
oops, take care guys @TedShifrin @Hawk
@TedShifrin by the way, I figured it out for the other cases
@TedShifrin Thank you, once again.
 
12:28 AM
Howdy chat
 
@TedShifrin I want to cook up a 5-manifold $M$ (or higher, of odd dimension $2n+1$) which has a hyperplane field $\eta$ such that $\eta$ is not integrable at each point (doesn't admit an integral submanifold of maximal dimension), but has an integral submanifold of dimension 4 (or of $2n\geq d>n$) at each point. I don't know if this is possible, and I don't know how to cook up examples like this. Any ideas?
Oh crap Ted left
I missed that.
Oh well.
 
12:46 AM
@ÉricoMeloSilva what do you think? Do you think it's a possibility to construct something of that sort?
I was thinking maybe making an integral submanifold first, then integrating it to something ugly enough.
 
Hello
I have a sketch of a proof
0
Q: Proof expression $ ((\neg C \vee B) \wedge ( A \rightarrow C) \wedge (B \rightarrow D) )\rightarrow \neg A \vee D $ by rules of interference

Tuki Task Proof expression $$ ((\neg C \vee B) \wedge ( A \rightarrow C) \wedge (B \rightarrow D) )\rightarrow \neg A \vee D $$ Attempt to proof $$ 1. B \text{ (premise) } $$ $$ 2. B \rightarrow D (\text{premise}) $$ $$ 3. A \rightarrow D (\text{premise}) $$ $$ 4. D (\text{modus ponens 1,2}) $$...

problem is can't exactly understand why this is not correct?
 
@Tuki you could use a truth table
 
You assume $B$ but you don't actually have that when proving this.
 
yes well the idea was try to do it wiht interference rules
so if I don\t actually have B I can\t use it as premise_
?
 
You'd have to show it follows if you assume $B$ and if you assume not $B$. Separately.
However, there probably is an easier way.
 
1:00 AM
yes there is
Easier one is already suggested in the comments
 
Assume that the antecedent of the original expression is true (if it were false, then the expression is of course true).
Oh kay.
lol at the one answer.
@Tuki really the standard thing you should do for questions like this is just to assume the antecedent is true, then go from there.
So your possible premises are all the conjuctive things at the start. The "not C or B", "A implies C" and "B implies D".
So then start with these and see how it goes.
Notice that "B" is not one of these things, though you have "B implies D".
 
1:15 AM
But yes honestly I don't really know what I am doing when we talk about proofs
But I would like to understand these, so here we are
hmm so propositional calculus. This one doesn't exactly ring any bells for me
The answer this guy gave to me, I can't understand much from this.
@anakhro So why is it exactly wrong to assume B from the start?
 
1:45 AM
@Tuki It's not horrible to assume B. But if you assume B, you have to also assume "not B".
This is because you don't know whether or not B is true or false.
So you can do it "by cases", if you wanted.
However, you only do it for when B is the case.
Be back in a bit. @ me if you have further questions.
 
2:47 AM
@anakhro having an integral submanifold of dim 4 would mean it's integrable. It can have smaller integral submanifolds I think.
 
Oh whoops, yeah that was me being an idiot.
I mean dim 3.
Not dim 4, 2, or 1.
Those are all relatively easy to come up with.
 
just cook up a one-form that isnt a contact form and isnt completely integrable
 
Does that necessitate the existence of a 3-dimensional integral manifold?
 
iunno but it's certainly necessary
 
Well yeah.
 
2:52 AM
so if it works u have an example if not back to the drawing board
i gtg
 
Enjoy your evening.
 
3:25 AM
How to do $e^{3+i}$
 
$e^{3+i} = e^3e^i$
It should be easy from there.
 
Would it simply be $e^3(cos(1) + isin(1))$
 
Yes.
 
$\text { If } z=\frac{\sqrt{3}}{2}-\frac{i}{2}, \text { then } z^{3 / 4}$
so $z = cos(\frac{7\pi}{8}) + sin(\frac{7\pi}{8})$
as $\theta= - \frac{\pi}{4}$ and $r = 1$
Would $z^{\frac{3}{4}} = \cos \left(\frac{21 \pi}{32}\right)+i \sin \left(\frac{21 \pi}{32}\right)$
Seems I have made a trig mistake
$\theta = - \frac{\pi}{6}$
 
4:37 AM
Not nonlocal enough
One way that a nonlocal version of topology can be defined is via hypergraphs
Point set topology also generalises naturally to multisets
 
4:59 AM
And therefore:
in The h Bar, 1 hour ago, by Secret
> In other words, the pattern of interactions should define the geometry. If a system has many nonlocal connections, then it could be that no geometrical interpretation is possible.
Is false. Geometry proved itself to be so flexible that given any set with some relation R, it can be defined a geometry
1
A: Given axioms, how do we know it defines a geometry?

57JimmyIt depends on your definition of a geometry. And usually, such a definition would be "A geometry is something that satisfies the following axioms." Of course, when we talk about non-Euclidean geometries, we know what we mean, namely, things that satisfy all axioms for a Euclidean geometry except ...

 
 
2 hours later…
6:43 AM
@TedShifrin Ted you're great! Now the last problem in this issue (I hope): When I substitute you solution of the intermediate equation I got, back I have: $$ \rho(\vec{r})^{g(\vec{r})} \nabla\rho(\vec{r})= \nabla \rho(\vec{r})\times (\nabla\rho(\vec{r})\times \vec{v}(\vec{r}))$$ with your arbitrary function $g$ and another fairly arbitrary scalar function $\rho$ and the $\vec{v}$ in question. Can we give any explicit form to $\vec{v}$ here?
iots like we have to "undo" $\nabla \rho \times$ two times. So I suppose it involves Poincare now?
 
7:22 AM
Is there a term for a semigroup with no proper subsemigroups? (Perhaps more importantly, can such a semigroup exist without being the trivial group?)
A quick look at semigroups of small order and I can't find a semigroup lacking an idempotent element. Perhaps that is what I would need to look at.
 
Well the trivial semigroup is always a sub semi group, this you are basically asking whether their exists perfect semigroups
a semigroup where the only au semigroup is itself and trivial
Ok turns out perfect semigroup are somethings else entirely
They are cyclic
 
7:41 AM
Well, I think I have a proof for the finite case:
Assuming $S$ is a finite semigroup, then fix some element $x\in S$ and consider the set $\{x^{2^n}\mid n\in\mathbb{N}\}$. Since $S$ is finite, there exist $m,n\in\mathbb{N}$ such that $m<n$ and $x^{2^m}=x^{2^n}$. So $x^{2^m}=(x^{2^n})^{2^{n-m}}=x^{2^n}$ and so, since $(x^{2^n})^{2^{n-m}}=x^{2^n}$, if $2^{n-m}=2$ we're done. If not, the multiply both sides by $(x^{2^n})^{2^{n-m-2}}$ to attain $((x^{2^n})^{2^{n-m}-1})^2=(x^{2^n})^{2^{n-m}-1}$
So, if there exist a semigroup with no idempotents, it's infinite.
Typo in there, I believe. It's difficult to tell with the exponents having exponents
(and it's too late to edit)
Yeah, that should be $(x^{2^n})^{2^{n-m}-2}$ and I put $(x^{2^n})^{2^{n-m-2}}$
 
8:19 AM
@Secret I want to apologize once more for bullying you in this chat room earlier. I don't understand most of what you are writing about, but I believe you have your own genius in math. Be well.
 
8:35 AM
Other users and the maths literature are always guiding me, thus I should be fine and not end up with things nonsensical
 
Hi
Let $f : X → Y$ be continuous map onto $Y$ , and let $X$ be compact. Also $g : Y → Z$ is such that $g â—¦ f$ is continuous. Show $g$ is continuous.
In the proof I have. the author uses the fact (?) that '$X$ compact, $f$ continuous implies $f$ open map.'
 
Morning all
 
morning
I know that X compact, f continuous implies f closed map. (where $Y$ Hausdorff. We may assume all of $X,Y,Z$ are metric spaces). But not that $f$ can be open map.
how to show $f:X\to Y$ continuous from compact $X$ onto Hausdorff $Y$ implies $f$ open map?
 
Hmm...
$X$ compact, $f$ continuous, there exists some open set $U$ in $Y$ such that its preimage under $f$ is some finite cover of $X$
But what is the preimage of $Y-U$ under $f$
$g \circ f$ continuous, there exists some open set $V$ in $Z$ such that its preimage under $g \circ f$ is a finite cover of $X$
 
8:53 AM
Do you mean that there exist some family of open sets such that their preimages under $g \circ f$ are a finite cover of $X$?
exists*
 
well $X$ is compact, which means all its covers can only be finite covers, such covers must be some preimage of some family of open sets in $Z$ as $g \circ f$ is continuous
 
Well, it can have an infinite cover, but that infinite cover necessarily has a finite subcover
 
right, so there can be a family of infinite size whose preimage is an infinite cover
Thus we have that $f$ continuous, $X$ compact implies the image $f(X) \subseteq Y$ is compact
but I am not sure if I need to check $Y -f(X)$ to ensure $f$ only maps open sets to open sets in order to get the open map conclusion in silent's
O wait, the preimage of $Y-f(X)$ under $f$ should be empty, which means $f$ can never map a non open set in $X$ to an open set in $Y$
Thus $f$ has to be open map
So:
$X$ compact & $f$ continuous $\implies$ $f$ open map
$X$ compact & $g\circ f$ continuous $\implies$ $g\circ f$ open map
Also $(g \circ f) (X)$ is compact and $\subseteq Z$
That leaves to check whether open sets in $g(Y-f(X))$ are open in $Z$
hmm...
 
9:15 AM
@Secret right, I was just checking because you said "some open set" rather than a family of such sets (I assume $X$ itself is considered to cover itself)
 
Continuity is where ch.3 of Munkres begins, which is interpreted because my chemistry PhD started back in 2017, which is why I technically have limits in my background in topology for this area
and I am pretty allergic to talking about metric space in topology, because I hate seeing too many inequality signs in the proofs where I suffer BSOD.
 
lol
I'm trying to show that an inverse limit of non-empty finite discrete sets is non-empty
I think I already have it using the finite intersection property
 
typo: interrupted
I actually understood many of the real analysis theorems a lot more ever since I knew about the more general framework of point set topology (which includes everything including non hausedoff topologies) as putting everything in terms of nets helps to avoid a lot a lot of inequality and absolute value signs
and makes it more intuitive since I am more comfortable with infinities
 
Do you happen to know why prof wildberger is uncomfortable with them?
 
crAnK
 
9:26 AM
Have not followed up on much of his works since our meeting in 2014, back then he shared a similar sentiment as I am on the issue of inexactness since computationally speaking, all transcendental functions are power series, thus all we ever get are approximations
by redefining distances as distance squared, he basically includes a lot of constructible numbers into measurements of geometric figures, hence sidestepping the sin cos power series problem as everything is at least expressible in terms of combinations of roots, and polynomials
though technically speaking, there is a limit
for one, not all algebraic numbers are in the constructible numbers, such as solutions of 5th degree polynomials cannot be expressed in terms of elementary functions due to Galois theory (the corresponding Galois group is not solvable)
We have not discussed anything about his view on the reals, we only have discussed about rational trigonometry
In other news:
53
Q: Compact sets are closed?

InsigMathI feel really ignorant in asking this question but I am really just don't understand how a compact set can be considered closed. By definition of a compact set it means that given an open cover we can find a finite subcover the covers the topological space. I think the word "open cover" i...

> It is true, however, that compact sets in Hausdorff spaces are closed, though a bit of work is required to establish the result.
one does need hausedoff to establish compact sets are closed. This helps to continue the above proof as by taking complements, $Y-f(X)$ is open and $Z-(g\circ f)(X)$ is also open
Thus $g(Y-f(X))$ is some subset in $Z-(g\circ f)(X)$
meaning it is open thus $g$ maps open sets to open sets, hence $g$ is also open map and hence continuous
 
 
2 hours later…
11:18 AM
:)
 
0
Q: Which of the following is true about $m \times n $ mayrix of rank $n$.

himanshu SinglaLet $A $ be an $m \times n$ matrix of rank $n$ with real entries. Choose the correct statement. 1.$Ax=b$ has a solution for any $b$. 2.$Ax=0$ does not have a solution. 3.if $Ax=b$ has a solution then it is unique. 4.$y'A=0$ for some nonzero $y'$ where $y'$ is transpose of vector $y$ Now opti...

(C) is the correct answer. right?
$\{x:Ax=0\}$ has dimension zero. Since from Rank Nullity Theorem.
If $Ax=b$ has solution, then $x_0$ be the solution. The General solution $x_0+\{x:Ax=0\}$. Right?
that is $\{x_0\}$
Rest all are false
@Silent Am I correct?
 
11:42 AM
Wow! it seems correct. How do you come up with such clear cut reasoning? When i solve these kind of questions the i solely rely on intuition, but that feels unsatisfying. Which book are you usin for linear algebra? @N.Maneesh
Is it true that $\Bbb Z[1/2]$ is infinite dimensional over $\Bbb Z$?
 
12:37 PM
@Silent As a module? Yes. As an algebra? No, it is finitely generated
 
Oh! :O
 
That's why finite and finitely generated are different for algebras over a ring
$\Bbb Z[1/2]$ is a finitely generated but not finite $\Bbb Z$-algebra
 
I mean, I am reading Artin Algebra's Ch 11 on ring theory, and there is a theorem :
In this line, will we say that it has finite dimension or infinite dimension?
 
$1/2$ is not the root of any monic polynomial in $\Bbb Z[X]$
@Silent finite, there's a finite basis
 
Can you please give a basis?
 
12:45 PM
A basis of what?
 
@AlessandroCodenotti I mean how do we see that $\Bbb Z[1/2]$ has finite basis over $\Bbb Z$? I can't think other than $\{1,1/2,1/4,1/8,...\}$ as basis.
 
It doesn't, I told you it's infinite dimensional
$1/2$ is not the root of any monic polynomial in $\Bbb Z[X]$, the hypoteses of the theorem are not satisfied here
 
oh! so to see there is finite basis, we need to think in totally differently! silly me. Thank you very much!
 
 
2 hours later…
2:30 PM
Hi, I made two measurements of one object's mass using different techniques and there are the results I got:
First method: m1 = (80,0 ± 1,0) g
Second method: m2 = (77,6 ± 7,2) g

You can treat the first method as a reference one.
And I have a question: Is there a way to express these two results in terms of percentage?
I mean "in how many percent the second result is coherent with the reference one"?

I tried to make this using a standard ratio Îľ = (m1/m2) and also the error of ratio calculated using exact differential
In the first method it should be m1 = (80,0 ± 0,1) g. Sorry, the page won't let me change it.
 
2:59 PM
@Tuki I left you an answer on your question last night in an effort to show you how you can salvage your answer.
 
@anakhro Yes I noticed. Your answer is much appreciated. I see you made some efforts trying to explain my question.
So the thing is I'am not taking course in logic. I'am however taking course in discrete mathematics which is aimed at first year computer science students.
 
@Tuki yes I figured your skill level was around there. The Fitch-style notation there might not be helpful for your course, but it explains how you can save the half of the argument you made.
The first method is probably the way your professor intended.
But your try wasn't bad. You just needed to finish it, that's all.
I am trying to get the other answerer to elaborate on his answer for you. He's using a more formal style of proof where you use the $\vdash$ to denote "proves" and then use sets of formulas. So $\{P,Q\}\vdash R$ means that $P,Q$ prove $R$.
 
3:17 PM
Yes I can't indeed understand the notation he uses.
The post I made was actually the exact same answer I used in the exam. The exam had this question.
 
Hi @BalarkaSen
@Tuki yeah, so you didn't quite get 100% on that question during the exam, eh?
 
Quite possible it is 0/6 points from that.
The use of interference rules etc.. was on the last lecture of the course
So yes I didn't exactly know what i was doing.
 
Well at least you are trying to learn it now. That's what counts.
 
Yes exactly
 
Logic is a little tough to get your mind wrapped around at first, but if you keep trying, you can definitely eventually get it.
 
3:23 PM
@anakhro Heya
 
@BalarkaSen a problem I was working on yesterday: "I want to cook up a 5-manifold $M$ (or higher, of odd dimension $2n+1$) which has a hyperplane field $\eta$ such that $\eta$ is not integrable at each point (doesn't admit an integral submanifold of maximal dimension), but has an integral submanifold of dimension 3 (or of $2n>d>n$) at each point. I don't know if this is possible, and I don't know how to cook up examples like this."
The significance of such an example is kind of cute. Contact geometry is the case where you can only find integral submanifolds of dimension $d\leq n$.
 
Interesting questions. Below dimension $n$ you get examples by h-principles for Legendrian submanifolds, right?
 
Ledgendrian submanifolds would be those where $d=n$.
 
Ah, OK.
 
And integrable hyperplane fields would be where you can find ones of $d=2n$.
So the example I am looking for would be between integrable and completely nonintegrable.
I have to sit down and work at it sometime today. For now I am looking at mr. Darboux & Pfaff. Trying to organize in my head the reasoning behind Moser's trick.
Trying to make my thesis intro a little bit more robust than current literature on the subject. I think I did a good job on Frobenius's theorem so far, everything being at least in one spot rather than 50 references.
 
3:35 PM
I'm not sure why you wouldn't expect lots of examples to exist. Eg, a contact 3-manifold usually has a lot of embedded Legendrian knots. Why is $d > n$ special? Am I missing something?
@anakhro I tried hard to understand the Moser trick once. It's still a trick to me
The key fact I remember is that if $\omega_t = \omega_0 + d\alpha_t$ is a homotopy of symplectic forms lying in the same cohomology class, then there is a canonical way to cook up a family of vector fields $X_t$ such that $\mathcal{L}_{X_t} \omega_t = \dot{\omega_t}$
Then the isotopy between $\omega_t$ and $\omega_0$ is just given by flowing along $X_t$.
Choosing $X_t$ so that $\omega(X_t, -) = \dot{\alpha_t}$ works. I don't know why
Maybe physicists understand this better; dualizing by the symplectic form corresponds to the Hamiltonian and all.
 
3:52 PM
@BalarkaSen it's somewhere in between contact and integrable. I want something strictly in between. Not something which is integrable. Not something which is contact.
Legendrian submanifolds are integral manifolds of maximal dimension in contact manifolds. By the magic of symplectic geometry (dimensions of isotropic submanifolds), this dimension is always $n$ (where the contact manifold is $2n+1$).
For $n=1$, your (hyper)plane fields can admit integral submanifolds of dimensions 1 or 2. There is no middle guy, but as soon as you increase $n$, you get those middle guys.
So "completely non-integrable" coincides with "non-integrable" for probably only $n=1$.
There are probably lots of examples for $n\geq 2$, but I couldn't cook up any last time I tried. Maybe I just didn't have the right idea.
If I come up with something to explain Moser, I will let you know. :P
 
@anakhro Oh, ok, so integrable submanifolds of dimension $d > n$ is just not possible in the contact world. I should have seen that. If $(M^{2n+1}, \alpha)$ is contact and $\xi = \ker \alpha$, $d\alpha|_\xi$ is symplectic. Integrable subbundles of $\xi$ are precisely the ones for which $d\alpha = 0$ along them.
 
Exactly, @BalarkaSen
That's why Legendrian ~~ Lagrangian
 
@BalarkaSen I know you did some reading in foliation theory. Did that include holomorphic foliation stuff?
 
@anakhro Right, and Lagrangians have half the dimension; that's as far as you can go till the symplectic form vanishes.
 
4:04 PM
whats a derivative of a matrix w.r.t a matrix?
 
@Semiclassical Unfortunately no. I mostly only know foliations in the topological setup
 
mmkay
 
Also I looked at the Diff(S^1) stuff you linked earlier. I have heard of Nag before
The paper looked scary
 
boards.4channel.org/sci/thread/10628781#p10628781 I hope we get some guy that pulls off a miracle like that one anime post where some anon got a new lower bound for an open problem lmao.
 
least friendly place to discuss mathematics.
 
4:10 PM
hey @anakhro, WFF means Well-formed-formula, see this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well-formed_formula
 
@Tuki thanks!
 
"$20 Amazon gift card available for a proof, $40 for a disproof." Lmao. Such high standards :P
 
@BalarkaSen ikr
 
@anakhro I think it suffices to actually do the thing i said yesterday
 
cool stuff but oof
 
4:12 PM
@ÉricoMeloSilva I will try that today, thanks!
 
u can show that minimal dimension for integrable submanifolds <=> u have a contact form so you just need to find a form $\alpha$ so that $d\alpha$ is non-degenerate but not too non-degenerate i.e. its rank isnt full
 
@BalarkaSen I think what my prof was particularly looking for was something like: Suppose I've got an element of $M=\text{Diff}(S^1)/\text{Mob}(S^1)$
bah, how to get that umlaut
f it
 
A shame \" doesn't work in mathmode, does it
 
@ÉricoMeloSilva Intuitively I'd think of taking direct sum of a completely integrable subbundle with a completely nonintegrable one instead of cooking up a form. I'm not sure if that's a correct way of going about it.
I don't really have good intuition for the complete nonintegrability condition
 
that sounds like the same thing 2 me
 
4:21 PM
for a generic such element $\mu \in M$, I'd like to express it as $\mu=\mu_{big} \mu_{small}$ where both are in $M$ as well
with $\mu_{small}\approx \text{id}$
 
i like saying it formy bc it means finding a 1-form $\alpha$ with $(d\alpha\vert_{\eta})^{k} \neq 0$ but $(d\alpha\vert_{\eta})^{k + 1} = 0$ for $0 < k < n$ in ambient $2n + 1$ which is like finding a bunch of matrices of certain rank which sounds like something i can do despite being dumb
 
Gotcha
 
which i think is just decomposing $\eta$ like u said
 
Makes sense. Thanks!
I swear I learn 10 times more by talking to people here than spending weeks in college.
 
@BalarkaSen what classes have you been taking?
 
4:28 PM
well semester's over; i took analysis-2 (metric spaces+integration+bit of multivariable), algebra-2(linear algebra), probability-2(continuous distributions, ending with limit theorems) and classical mechanics this sem
 
Getting through all the stuff you simply have to take, huh?
 
@BalarkaSen what all did classical mechanics cover? anything lagrangian/hamiltonian formulation?
 
See, the thing is, I don't have qualms with taking any of these course per se. The problem is I think the course structure is subpar
@Semiclassical It did cover Lagrangian formalism, which I loved a lot
 
nice
Hamiltonian formulation is cool too, and important for getting into QM
 
@BalarkaSen How do you think they could be structured better?
 
4:30 PM
I think mathematically it's just a matter of going from the tangent bundle to the cotangent bundle?
 
@Semiclassical roughly.
 
Yeah if $\omega$ is the canonical symplectic form on the phase space $T^*M$, the Hamiltonian of a function $f : M \to \Bbb R$ is the $\omega$-dual of $df$
 
Right.
 
It's like the gradient, but in the symplectic world?
 
The way you see it in Hamiltonian mechanics is that you've got a vector of canonical coordinates $\vec{q}=(q_1,q_2,\cdots,q_n)$
and a vector of canonically conjugate momenta $\vec{p}=(p_1,p_2,\cdots,p_n)$
with Hamilton's equations being given as $\frac{dq_k}{dt} = \frac{\partial H}{\partial p_k}, \frac{dp_k}{dt} = -\frac{\partial H}{\partial q_k}$
 
4:34 PM
@anakhro I think they should just pick up a book and go through it than doing it piecemeal. Eg, I think linear algebra was quite sub-par this semester. I don't think the real point of various theorems were explained to us
 
@BalarkaSen seems contingent on there being a good book. Math literature can sometimes really suck.
 
I have in mind time-independent Hamiltonians, mind
time-dependence makes life hairy
 
@anakhro We covered linear algebra from Artin, which I think is a mistake. Artin does linear algebra to get to other stuff.
Just cover everything in Hoffman-Kunze
 
I liked Berberian for linear algebra.
 
There's also Hamilton-Jacobi theory, which formally takes the Hamiltonian $H=p^2/2m+V$ (for a one-coordinate system) and replaces $H\to E,p\to \partial S/\partial x$
and therefore you get a PDE $(\partial S/\partial x)^2+V(x) = E$
 
4:37 PM
a @Balarka: I disagree. I like Artin's treatment, and the canonical form stuff is very natural (as opposed to ad hoc like the "advanced" linear algebra books that don't have modules).
 
There's neat stuff in that direction, though I was never a master of it
 
@Semiclassical I like thinking about it in terms of DEs. Lagrangian is the second order equations in $T\mathbb R^n$, and Hamilton gives first order DEs in $T^*\mathbb R^n$
 
Hi @Semiclassic @anakhro.
 
hi @ted
 
Hi Ted!
 
4:38 PM
@TedShifrin I don't understand. Artin doesn't do rational canonical form. He has an ad-hoc proof of Jordan normal form.
 
@anakhro yeah
 
Not true, @Balarka. He does do rational canonical. And Jordan comes out of decomposition of modules over a Euclidean domain.
 
The most natural proof of Jordan normal form factors through primary decomposition.
 
I've taught that stuff out of there (years ago).
 
Where??
Is that in modules
I don't know which chapter it's in
 
4:39 PM
In the second edition, it's Section 14.8.
 
Oh OK
 
Anyhow, I've taught it out of Artin (many years ago).
 
We didn't cover that at all
 
Well, that's not my fault!
 
Ted, whats the derivative of a matrix, w.r.t a matrix?
 
4:40 PM
LOL, @JoeShmo. You can have a function $f\: M_{n\times n} \to M_{n\times n}$ and use the derivative as you learn in multivariable analysis.
 
@Semiclassical then using the symplectic structure on the cotangent bundle, you can show the correspondence of the equations to vector fields.
 
well, i know
 
Don't keep asking me stuff from your incompetent teacher.
 
yeah..
 
4:42 PM
alas, i'm partly trapped by my naive physics inclination to think of vector fields as vector-valued functions
 
In my multivariable math book, I ask them to compute the derivative of $f(A)=A^2$, for example, or $f(A)=A^\top A$.
 
rather than stuff like $a(x,y)\partial_x+b(x,y)\partial_y$
 
The instructor told me and a friend of mine to cover Jordan normal form and rational canonical form at the end of the semester, otherwise nobody would have seen it
 
@Semiclassic: That's fine as long as you're in an ambient Euclidean space.
@Balarka: And you lectured on diff geo, too. That's really cool.
 
@TedShifrin damn harsh
 
4:43 PM
@Eric: You keep complaining about me. You should just put me on ignore :D
 
i ain’t complainin
 
@Semiclassical Well in $\mathbb R^n$ it's fine.
 
That's the second time, Eric !
 
Oh Ted already noted this.
 
so, just for my sanity -- let $f(X) = AX^2$. Then $\frac{\partial f}{\partial X} = 2AX$
 
4:44 PM
lol
 
So what does that actually mean, @JoeShmo?
 
Is $X$ a square symmetric matrix
 
$2AX$ is the best linear approximation to $f$ at any given point $X$
 
That's crap.
 
(I forget if that matters but I want to know what $X^2$ is supposed to mean)
 
4:45 PM
OK. good.
 
It's a square matrix, @Semiclassic.
Let's do a directional derivative, @JoeShmo. $df_X(Y) = \lim\limits_{t\to 0}\dfrac{f(X+tY)-f(X)}t$. Calculate that for me.
 
mmkay. I was never great at that stuff tbh, i tend to get mixed up by little things
 
so lets see -- $f(X + \epsilon) = A(X+ \epsilon)^2 = AX^2 + 2AX \epsilon + A\epsilon^2$
 
Don't do that, @JoeShmo. You need a matrix there.
 
@TedShifrin That was also a joint set of two talks with a friend actually. We have a growing community of highly motivated first years consisting of... 4 people :)
At least it's not less than 4
 
4:47 PM
$\epsilon$ has to be a small matrix, and multiplication is not commutative.
That's still amazing, @Balarka.
 
yes, $\epsilon$ is a matrix
 
Do it my way, @JoeShmo.
You really want directional derivatives, because you need to find $L(Y)$ where $L=df_X$ is a linear map.
You need to review multivariable analysis. What you're writing doesn't make sense, actually.
You can't take $\lim_{\epsilon\to 0}$ and get anything out of it.
 
@BalarkaSen my tensor analysis class had 3 people in it. It was great.
 
fine, replace $\epsilon$ with $\epsilon Y$
 
OK. And I'm being stubborn for very good reasons.
 
4:49 PM
i know :-)
 
Small class size is helpful.
 
Sometimes, too small is bad. I hated teaching classes with fewer than 7-8 people.
Unless all the students were exceptional.
 
if u dont get engagement it's like lecturing into the void
 
in any event, he now claims that $\frac{\partial f}{\partial X}$ ought to be written as a $n^2 \times n^2$ matrix? does this ring a bell?
 
yeah
 
4:52 PM
@TedShifrin why did you hate teaching so few?
 
If you lecture long into the void, the void starts lecturing back.
10
 
@anakhro: Generally lack of responsiveness, lack of interaction. With too small a class, people are quieter, in general.
@JoeShmo: Sure, because $M_{n\times n} \cong \Bbb R^{n^2}$.
But his formula is just wrong.
 
yes, but he has $n^2 \times n^2 = n^4$ terms
 
Write it out explicitly in coordinates if you don't want to do my directional derivative thingy.
You have to take the derivative of the $ij$-entry of $f(A)$ with respect to $a_{k\ell}$.
That's $n^4$ terms.
 
so how does your directional derivative help?
 
4:57 PM
@TedShifrin wow, that's opposite to what I have experienced on the other side of things. I guess I could see it going both ways.
 
Because it gives you the answer correctly and easily.
 
@TedShifrin what might be markedly worse is a large class which slowly dissipates into 9 or 10 people out of which only 4 interact
 
but $df_X = 2AX \in M_{n \times n}$
 
hell no.
 
aha! why?
 
4:59 PM
Did you do my directional derivative computation?
 
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