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kviiri
kviiri
4:29 AM
So overall it's a weird result, mostly. Unusually close race between the three leading parties, with one of them being a traditionally small party that surged in popularity over the last decade.
 
linksassin
linksassin
Interest, do you not have a majority government system?
NVM. I can do my own research. I think your system sounds better than australia's
 
BESW
BESW
← 2 messages moved from RPG General Chat
 
kviiri
kviiri
@linksassin We have lots of parties, and they form a coalition through negotiations after the election
Traditionally the coalition has consisted of two out of three big parties, plus a few smaller parties to get the majority
 
linksassin
linksassin
@kviiri Do those coalitions change each election? We have a coalition government but those parties have been together for decades.
 
kviiri
kviiri
@linksassin Yep, assuming the results change enough (which they most often do). The coalitions are largely characterized by the leading two parties, but the two elections preceding this one were a bit unusual
 
linksassin
linksassin
4:35 AM
I prefer governments that don't have a clear majority tbh. Our system is a bit of a joke.
If they have a majority they can get lots of stuff done but they can do anything they want without resistance.
If they don't the other parties just vote against them and nothing gets done.
 
kviiri
kviiri
That is true, and there are downsides to it. However, there's a certain merit in the government being able to make unpopular decisions too, without the immediate risk of dissolution.
 
linksassin
linksassin
If we had more parties with a reasonable representation it would force them to discuss issues more I think.
 
trogdor
trogdor
I feel like more smaller parties would help us in the US too
 
kviiri
kviiri
Our coalitions are not particularly stable though --- it's not uncommon for a whole party or a splinter group to resign from the government, possibly compromising the majority.
 
linksassin
linksassin
I just wish we had more options. We really only choose between 2 parties in australia. The minor parties have little to no power. Maybe 1-2 seats from ~76
 
trogdor
trogdor
4:38 AM
So that they are all actually forced to work together and listen to each other
 
kviiri
kviiri
@linksassin Guess how many parties participated in these elections?
 
trogdor
trogdor
But I think our system needs more than that to be fixed too
 
linksassin
linksassin
Elections usually come down to 'lesser of two evils' rather than actually voting for a government you want
@kviiri >50 ?
 
kviiri
kviiri
@linksassin Nah, just 19, plus one movement that's not officially a party yet but essentially has the same privileges :)
Plus a handful of independents here and there
 
linksassin
linksassin
We have lots of parties too. They just have no chance of winning seats. So it really comes down to which of the main 2 you list first.
 
kviiri
kviiri
4:39 AM
Yeah
Our small parties occasionally get seats in the municipal elections though, so they're not entirely symbolic
 
linksassin
linksassin
Do you vote only for your local representative? or on a state / national level?
 
kviiri
kviiri
@linksassin We have thirteen districts with each getting an amount of seats decided by population
(for the parliament)
Eg my district has 22 seats
 
linksassin
linksassin
Ok, that's like our senate. But we only have 6 regions and only 3 of them have enough population to really matter.
 
kviiri
kviiri
So anyway, regarding my conflicted feelings: the result is unusual and reflects to me an increasing polarization in some matters that I consider would be really important to get strong, good decisions on
 
linksassin
linksassin
Increasing polarization appears to be a growing global trend unfortunately
Brexit, Trump, IS, immigration, gay-rights, etc... It seems more an more we are being forced to choose a side one way or the other. And our political parties and reflecting that
 
kviiri
kviiri
4:49 AM
I frankly dislike the rise of the True Finns, even though I think many of the concerns of their voters are legitimate. They either don't believe in climate change or consider that we have already done our part, generally have an anti-science vibe going on with their populist rhetoric and have been kinda flirting with not only racism but also people who are open and proud neo-nazis.
 
linksassin
linksassin
We have an election coming up in May and it will be interesting to say the least. One party likes to grow the economy by letting the rich get richer at the cost of the needy. The other likes to tax business and high income earners to provide more public services. But some of our more vocal smaller parties have got more representation at the last few elections.
The Far Right and Far Left parties are gaining support and the cost of the middle ground.
 
kviiri
kviiri
At the same time I'm glad that the Greens and the Left Alliance got good results too, because they are among the more environmentally savvy parties. Greens have historically been anti-nuclear, though, which is a stance I think they should reconsider as a party.
@linksassin Australia, right?
What kind of small parties are there running?
 
linksassin
linksassin
Correct. Your "true finns" party sound similar to our "One Nation" party.
Not quite as bad as ours since they have legit policies until our nut-jobs.
But the rise seems to have similar motivation. Fear of the foriegn influence.
We have Labour (Slightly Left) and Liberal/Coalition(Right conservative) as the main parties. Greens (left, environmental at the cost of everthing else) are the third biggest.
 
kviiri
kviiri
(a more accurate translation of "True Finns" would be "Basic Finns" or "Normal Finns", which also irritates me because it implies that they and their supporters belong to some immutable "norm" whose interests they seek to advance beyond that of non-normals)
 
trogdor
trogdor
Eww
That is no less gross
I honestly hate the word normal being applied to any group more and more every day
 
linksassin
linksassin
4:57 AM
But parties like One Nation (right leaning racists party), Justice Party (law enforcement), Family First (right, also racist) and a few others are gaining support
 
kviiri
kviiri
How big are the Greens?
h never mind, went and checked myself. 1 out of 150 seats in the House of Representatives
Oh neat, you guys have STV? I think it's an interesting system with many merits
We use D'Hondt method, which I explained in the other chat in brief
in RPG General Chat, Apr 6 at 13:16, by kviiri
@nitsua60 D'Hondt (Wikipedia) with fixed electoral districts with seat count adjusted by population for each election
I need to be afk for a while but happy to continue politely musing the future of the world soon :)
 
Miniman
Miniman
5:19 AM
@linksassin And yet they never really do anything.
 
linksassin
linksassin
6:01 AM
@Miniman Which party are you refering to as never doing anything?
 
Miniman
Miniman
@linksassin Yes.
 
linksassin
linksassin
@Miniman Haha, true. Though vic state labour are doing a decent job at the moment
 
 
1 hour later…
Derpy
Derpy
7:34 AM
@kviiri Yep, I know. I realized the error during the weekend ^_^'
 
Derpy
Derpy
8:33 AM
just attempted to raise a custom flag on another site. The 200 char max length limitation on the custom message is kinda lame.
 
 
10 hours later…
Zachiel
Zachiel
6:21 PM
I'm self-limiting this to the not-a-bar for... reasons.
Someone please tell me that I'm not completely wrong in still willing to play D&D despite not wanting to spend time finetuning my character.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
There's nothing wrong with playing a pre-generated character.
That's why they're provided for you, not everyone wants to go through chargen.
 
Someone_Evil
Someone_Evil
@Zachiel What kind of fine-tuning are you referring to? Combat/DPR-Optimization or determining every little aspect of their life and personality?
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
Given that they say "homework" in General Chat, I assume they mean mechanical optimization.
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
Uh,n o, I'm not talking about pregenerated characters. I'm talking about this character I have that needs a rebuild and to buy equipment, but I just go on playing it avoiding combat (it is in an online game that works a bit like a frreform play by chat game but with D&D rules) to the point of not doing things I'd like to do because I'd lose the character.
 
Someone_Evil
Someone_Evil
@Yuuki Some of my players have spent hours and pages on their characters childhood, siblings etc. (and still forget to give them a last name...)
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
6:32 PM
I don't want to sit down and write a spell list. I don't want to flip through manuals and the SRD in order to find out which other spells I could use to stay alive, same for the equipment
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@Someone_Evil I don't consider that homework. Mostly because I'm conflating "studying" with "homework" and studying involves consulting reference material.
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
I don't trust most people with choosing for me and those I trust either don't care about helping or give me suggestions I don't want to apply such as "don't wait for when you will be able to buy that costly item, spend all your money now"
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
Whereas the kind of creative writing you do with character backgrounds typically doesn't involve reference material.
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
@Yuuki well I'd like to write a background that is really coherent with the setting... but I don't really want to spend time on it.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
How radical can you make the rebuild?
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
6:34 PM
So, people are telling me "if you don't want to engage with the D&D material, why are you playing D&D?" and "You should stop treating gold as if it was real money"
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
One way to avoid sitting down and writing a spell list is to not have access to a spell list.
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
@Yuuki I can't stray much from the concept of the PG as played until now, but I can do pretty radical things such as swapping out a whole class.
@Yuuki but classes without a spell list are weak :(
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@Zachiel What edition are you playing
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
What do you mean by "the point of not doing things I'd like to do because I'd lose the character."?
 
Someone_Evil
Someone_Evil
@Zachiel Which edition are you playing?
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
6:36 PM
Well, having to interact with a mechanic you don't like is not fun.
"Weak" > "not fun". Being weak is better than not having fun.
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
@Rubiksmoose 3.5 - There's an evil guy that needs to be stopped or he'll kill a god, we don't know who. We know the guy has some nasty defensive spells that can only be foiled with a specific buff, that he will try to dispel. Which means spending money oon consumable objects in order to block those debuffs.
Me, I just want to go in and bash, with all my buffs up. So much for the wishful thinking...
@Yuuki not having fun is better than being envyous or being bullied. (Not like people can't kill me in one hit anyway, but at least I am trying)
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
Based on what I remember, it just seems like you're not having fun in this environment period.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
So by lose the character you mean having them die?
And by not doing things you mean you don't really to interact with the the complexities of the game?
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
@Yuuki I'm not having fun in any environment and this is life.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
Is there any part of the game you enjoy currently?
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
6:43 PM
@Rubiksmoose Playing with the people there.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
Given that you mentioned that they bully you, I would hesitate to say that you enjoy playing with them.
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
No, some characters bully my character.
It's different.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
Here's my take on this so far: if you are planning D&D and aren't enjoying combat, spells, character advancement or mechanics it is D&D that you are not enjoying. Because that is the core of the default DND experience. On the other hand, that's not a reason not to keep playing necessarily.
But I think there might be a take expectations problem here.
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
Also, I am enjoing casting spells, and doing combat, and all those things - what I don't like is having to stop playing in oder to do the necessary shopping and paperwork.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
That sounds weirdly like "My Guy" syndrome. Even if it's in-character for their characters to bully your character, it's still the players deciding to have their characters undertake those actions.
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
6:46 PM
I'm also conscious that those who are willing to do the paperwork are having more fun than me.
@Yuuki it's a simulationist environment. I actually really like how those players can be "my guy", while I can only be basically myself.
 
Someone_Evil
Someone_Evil
@Zachiel It sounds like they enjoy paperwork (more than you do).
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
I gess some of them really like writing a story, whereas I'm in for being a part of the story, rather than writing something about characters.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
If I'm playing with people in 5e the expectation is that they are playing to the best of their and their character's ability. If I found out later that my character died or don't a bunch of resources saving someone else's character and they had something that they should have been able to do but didn't do it because they didn't care to level the character and didn't tell anyone. I could see this causing problems
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
@Someone_Evil I guess I would enjoy paperwork more if I had someone to bounce ideas and reasonings to, but asking someone to be this guy feels like cruelty to me XD
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
Hmm maybe I'm misunderstanding your issue
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
6:49 PM
@Zachiel If that's what you want to do, have you considered less complex classes that are still fairly useful for specific things such as the warblade, crusader, or duskblade?
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
@Zachiel There are definitely people who enjoy charop and would love to spend time theorycrafting builds.
 
Someone_Evil
Someone_Evil
@Zachiel It shouldn't be if they enjoy paperwork
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
And they're not particularly uncommon.
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
@DavidCoffron We don't use those classes in my game. There's a lot of people that thinks that the whole "spellcasting for martials" thing is ...not good.
Anyway, there's also people who says that the best class is warlock because they can cast everything from scrolls and also blast at-will
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@Zachiel Even the Crusader? They are pretty bread-and-butter divine beat-em-up guy
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
6:51 PM
I don't want to play a warlock, casting spells from scrolls seems likke a huge expense
@DavidCoffron You know the "how come they can only do this on this round and not on the next one" school? Well, that one.
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@Zachiel From a martial arts background I can tell you that their are some techniques that I would not be able to do over and over again even if I can do them every once in a while during a spar. But I won't try to argue that camp here.
 
Yuuki
Yuuki
I mean, you're kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Rock being "I don't like to do bookwork and mechanics optimization" and hard place being "I don't want to be less powerful than everyone else" (and "I want to be a caster" in particular). 3.5e is particularly bad about the power balance being heavily in favor of the nitpicky optimization playstyle.
If you want to continue to play 3.5e and have fun with it, you're going to have to pick one and let go of your concerns with the other.
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
Anyway, choosing spells is not the big part of the problem. I will spend a week on the list and I will get the spells sorted out. The big problem is the equipment. I don't want to commit to the equipment until I know which build I want to play and I don't know which build I'm gong to want until I have decided which spells I ned to be able to cast, which also depends in turn from metamagic feats I will take.
I'm theoretically willing to go that way and solve the gordian knot, but I'm a procrastinator. Speak about a rock and a hard place...
And the BBEG is not waiting for me
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@Zachiel If you just want someone to bounce ideas off of, I know I, among other RPG.SE chat-frequenters, participate in that process often
Now, my 3.5e knowledge is not nearly the same level of mastery as my 5e knowledge, but I have kept my own in games with other heavy-optimizers, so if you have any questions, I'd be glad to help when I'm around.
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
That's kind of you. I hope my usual "my guy wouldn't do that" won't clash too much with the will to optimize. It usually does. (I mean, most optimizers I know would just tell me "optimize first, define the character's behavior later")
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
7:02 PM
@Zachiel I strongly disagree with that sentiment. As a frequent optimizer myself, I enjoy much more deciding on my character's behavior first, and then finding an optimal build that makes sense for that character.
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
For example, I would benefit from 3 levels of Wizard but no, no, no, my character is not a wizard. Even if that means not getting access to wraith touch.
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@Zachiel Then you ask yourself, "could I imagine that my character's wizard levels are actually some training in a different facet that just mirrors wizardness in the rules" (such as the training required for your character's version of wraith touch)
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
He would still need to study from a book. Every morning. That's a big no.
Ok there's probably some other class that can cast that spell
Maybe I can find some space for some spontaneous spellcasting class in my build but I will need to lose that one level in ranger that I would have liked to take. I need to think about it.
(As of now I'm cleric 19 fighter 1, aiming for more feats and a CL of 22, with a limit of 3 base classes and 2 PrC and a will to keep my charisma as low as it is practical. We're going epic but no epic spellcasting and most epic feats have been banned.)
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@Zachiel And that's the part of optimizing that I love personally. Finding the best mechanical options that still fit your character idea. Sure, I sometimes get bummed out when my character can't quite get everything I want, but I usually enjoy myself more come game time when my character idea is demonstrated in the mechanics.
@Zachiel And what is the character idea you are working with?
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
7:17 PM
Stubborn priest-warrior of the god of nature and nobility, with spending problems (mostly to make him look coherent with my actions), a knightly behaviour with ladies, self-sacrifice when it comes to things he can do or avoid doing (but not with things he could buy), some self esteem problem (I won't accept women courting me because of my fame or of my money) and a lot of other small things about myself that I thought were good to include in a well-rounded, believable character.
(Turns out my not-spending problems are the first thing that's not believable to people at large.)
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@Zachiel Hmph. I asked because wraithstrike iirc is only on the Wiz/Soc and Asn lists
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
@DavidCoffron I'm out of luck then and I will need to spend some contingent spell on it :(
I hate consumables with a passion.
I am a cleric entirely because I wanted to be able to cast divine power, and there's a consumable that casts it.
No, better be a cleric.
The initial idea was to lose one round to charge in, buff with quickened spells while making full attacks in arcane giant form and call it a day. Despite KRyan reminding me that deling HP damage is not the best way to kills someone.
Then I sorta realized that 1) Shock Trooper only works while charging and 2) brilliant blades ignore whole categories of enemies and do not bypass natural armor.
So I tried taking charging feats. Well, I got the prereqs.
Which means I can sunder and I can push. Sundering is useful since we get fixed treasure no matter what we destroy, but I've never used it. Just attacking the opponent feels more useful.
I can also get really big and strong (a titan) after charging and get 3x power attack bonus from Combat Brute but... getting big means I need to spend a turn resizing a weapon...
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@Zachiel Yeah, I've failed to see the usefulness of Shock Trooper except in very niche situations
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
It's a failure build.
Plain fighters with two weapons and two attacks on a charge do more damage than me in leonal form, pouncing with my two-handed pick.
Plain fighters with 5 levels less.
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
Then let's rethink your build. What is/are your favorite part(s) of the build?
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
7:32 PM
The fact that I'm pounding enemies in melee. I mean, it's not particularly fun to do the same thing again and again for three rounds but in my mind I should kill things much faster than that.
Some say that spending 4 feats only to get persistent greater visage of the deity is bad but... hey, +4 constitution and +4 strenght, I'm almost better than a barbarian.
(Then I met some people who told me that if as a cleric I'm trying to be better than a barbarian, it shouldn't probably be by a couple more points of damage)
(Which is a big self-esteem problem when they still work in an anti-magic field or after being dispelled while I plummet to the ground and whine...)
I feel like those Magic players who go into a shop asking for a game "but no blue decks, please".
Anyway I need to be AFK for a while
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@Zachiel Why are you spending 4 feats?
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
@DavidCoffron (passing by) Divine metamagic, metamagic extend, metamagic persist and extra turning
 
 
1 hour later…
Zachiel
Zachiel
8:52 PM
Basically, I'm torn between going full fighter now and rebuilding to get two more metamagic feats and then the epic spells that recude metamagic costs, ending up with level 11 spell slots and +1 quickened spells, +3 persisted spells (for a level 7 persisted divine power, or a level 11 quickened maximized firestorm
(with a really low save)
I'm also prioritizing constitution increases over wisdom.
Basically because I saw guys with 300 HP and I wanted to have more.
 
MikeQ
MikeQ
9:07 PM
Charop headaches aside, if the other players are bullying you and making the game unfun, then that's fault of that particular player group. Don't feel bad about not enjoying a game that you want to enjoy.
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
@MikeQ There's been some player who bullied me, but I just avoid them when it happens. I was not talking about those occurrences.
 
MikeQ
MikeQ
So what's the issue? That the campaign is an "optimize or die" style game, and rather than prepare by poring over 100s of character option combinations, you just want to engage the game and have fun?
That's an intrinsic issue with 3.5/PF and other bloated systems, although certain campaign formats or DM styles can mitigate that problem
 
David Coffron
David Coffron
@Zachiel That sounds to me like it is just a choice to make; not sure how anyone could help. Personally, I would choose the persistent because I think it's cooler, but you may have different priorities
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
@MikeQ the problem is that I want to optimize, regardless of how hard the encounters actually are, and I want to prove myself that I am able to optimize, but I can't be bothered actually doing it, so rather than making a decent character I end up doing things like not having all the feats or the skill points I should have at my level until a DM points out that I should, and please complete your sheet before playing again.
I still have something like 43 unassigned skill points, and the first costly item I bought was a book of intellect, because who cares if I don't need skill points, gaining skill points is not retroactive so I need them now.
 
MikeQ
MikeQ
Ok, so maybe use some organizer tool to reduce the logistical workload?
PCGen, prebuilt spreadsheets with formulas, etc
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
9:30 PM
@MikeQ I tried a spreadsheet.
Writing a spreadsheet to chosse spells and automatically apply metamagics is... hard.
 
MikeQ
MikeQ
3.5 has been out for over a decade, I'm sure there are some prebuilt spreadsheet templates on the interwebs
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
@MikeQ that's a thing I need to consider. They won't have the custom functions I need to create the command strings used in the website I play in but hey, something's better than nothing.
Also, to ease the DM's work, we players are supposed to fill a formatted text file with all our active spells, their durations, when they're up, which items have been used to power those, the charges used for each item...
As one who'd like to buy a lot of Anks of Ascension and Pearls of Power to increase all my buffs' caster level by 4, that's a lot of work.
 
MikeQ
MikeQ
@Zachiel Huh. That's new to me. And does sound like a lot of extra work, on top of the time commitment you've already put in to research options and do charop.
 
Zachiel
Zachiel
9:53 PM
@MikeQ well, whan you work with a West Marches style campaign with several different DMs it's important to give them all the info they need to run a game.
I was thinking of writing some software to automate writing this document, for everyone to use, but being a procrastinator, nothing got done.
The same can be said for the program that should automatically update my buff tags and my chat commands. You know, when you have 5 different attacks that result in a string like &d20 +10 (Str) +20 (BAB) -5 (second iterative) -1 (buckler) you can either string them together (good luck adding that new buff someone cast on you to all five attacks) or copy/paste it 5 times in chat updating the iterative malus every time.
 

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