TRPG General Chat

5:00 AM

Session 0 is where you discuss the campaign, themes, group dynamics, and do your character creation.

The thing is though that you need time to set a foundation. Create your characters, why are they here, what the world is like, how the players (may or may not) incorporate into the storyline from the get go.

MikeQ

Session zero can also include some light gameplay

Regress.arg

could I do that round first, and then a session 0 (sort of an in media res beginning then flashback)

ah that's a good question in itself: is there a way to create a session where the gameplay gets the players to develop their characters-

Rubiksmoose

I mean, session 0 is where you should be creating the characters

linksassin

@Regress.arg if it is short enough you could incorperate it into a session 0. But you need to make the characters first

Rubiksmoose

5:01 AM

(or I should say is often the tool used to create characters in 5e)

Regress.arg

Oh I just remembered! In my current writing for session 1, there's an extended period where the program coordinator has the team run through some icebreakers, where I planned on getting people to answer questions about where they came from

MikeQ

The point of session zero is to gather the players and establish stuff like: This is the kind of game we will be playing. These are the characters we will be playing. These things are what we want to see / don't want to see.

There's like 1000000 zillion ways to play D&D, and it's crucial to get everyone on the same page before the campaign gains momentum.

Regress.arg

you know, in the fashion of any non-profit orientation session

ah

linksassin

@Regress.arg That's a good session 1 idea. Get them talking to each other in character. Session 0 is about talking out of character though

Regress.arg

how long would that process take?

or rather how long does it take on average

Rubiksmoose

5:03 AM

@Regress.arg with a new DM and new players? It could take a while. It varies greatly honestly.

Ben

3-6 hours... depending

trogdor

Oh man the star bar is full of ones

Regress.arg

Oh you're killing me here

linksassin

@Regress.arg Depends on the group. I'd allow 2-3 hours if you are creating a full characters

Rubiksmoose

@linksassin that is a minimum IMO

Regress.arg

5:03 AM

Christ on a cracker! ok is there any prep I can do in the meantime to help streamline the process?

Rubiksmoose

don't expect it to go faster than 2 hours for sure.

linksassin

@trogdor We know. Already discussed it.

trogdor

Yeah I scrolled up and am reading it

Ben

Character creation takes a couple of hours, depending on how many players you have.

MikeQ

Scheduling session zero should be as easy/difficult as scheduling any other session.

linksassin

5:04 AM

@Regress.arg Read the question on the site about session 0. Like this one: rpg.stackexchange.com/q/105388/48759

Rubiksmoose

@Regress.arg you could get the players talking about their characters to each other beforehand. Eg in a group chat.

MikeQ

If scheduling session zero is too complicated, then why expect time for a full-length campaign?

kviiri

@Regress.arg Read the rules on character generation and try to secure as many copies of the PBH as you can. If your jurisdiction allows it, make copies for your players of the vital bits.

Regress.arg

I have a session scheduled, but I sold it to the players as an actual gameplay session

complete with a teaser as to the events they could expect to happen

MikeQ

Could expect.

Rubiksmoose

5:05 AM

But when did you expect them to make their characters?

Regress.arg

I expected to go to each of them during the week

kviiri

Hm, well,

Rubiksmoose

But then what would they play with during session 1?

Regress.arg

and have a session with each just talking them through expectations or what not

I have the scenario, setting, NPCs, etc written out

or rather, finishing my work on those

Rubiksmoose

Expectations needs to be a group discussion IMO

Ben

5:06 AM

Well session 0 is just as much a group session as any

Rubiksmoose

1 on 1 is not going to help

MikeQ

Having a bunch of separate 1-on-1s isn't a reliable approach to a cohesive player group

kviiri

You can do the bonding part at the beginning of a proper gameplay session too, it doesn't take that long. Just tell them you'll do this and not fix up too much of a backstory before that

Ben

@MikeQ And take longer.

Regress.arg

I'm mostly wondering if I should inform the players that the upcoming session is going to be entirely/mostly character creation

Ben

5:07 AM

@Regress.arg Yes

Regress.arg

They are all on the same page as to the plot and where I want to go with this

MikeQ

Probably useful. Character creation can go quickly sometimes. And as mentioned above, if there's time left over, you could fit in some simple gameplay stuff.

Ben

Are you on the same page as to how they want to be involved?

Rubiksmoose

@Regress.arg honestly I don't see any pracictical way around it. They have to create characters.

Otherwise they have nothing to play with lol

Regress.arg

Right there's no question there-I'm wondering whether the character creation can be handled in multiple 1:1 sessions leading up to the session

and then spend Ann hour tying everything together before using the rest of the time on the episode 1 content

Rubiksmoose

5:09 AM

Mechanical character creation can be.

kviiri

You can create the mechanical character 1:1 with tve players if you want though. It's the backstory part where cohesion matters the most

Regress.arg

ok bingo

kviiri

And the mechanical part is the 2 hours part

Regress.arg

Awesome

see that's the kind of answer I was looking for

kviiri

Backstories are quicker to hash out usually. They don't have to be anything that big

linksassin

5:09 AM

@Regress.arg 1:1 session can create the characters it can't get the group on the same page and discussing the things they need to talk about.

Regress.arg

so backstory/plot stuff is collaborative

but mechanics can be 1:1?

MikeQ

Also D&D often assumes that the party can cover certain roles (frontliner, healer, skillmonkey, etc). Collaborative character creation can help the group find that synergy more effectively.

kviiri

Basically, although you should try to get a degree of variety

linksassin

@Regress.arg You can yes, it can be fun to work as a group on mechanics too though.

kviiri

Stuff like four monks might be weird

linksassin

5:11 AM

I suggest checking out the same page tool for question you should ask during s0.

Regress.arg

one last question for the evening-expect me to swing back here a lot as X-day approaches-

Ben

Session 0 is mostly story telling. You have character creation, then you get into who each of the PCs are, how they know each other/met, what the world is like, and how the story starts. If you dive straight into gameplay, there's no world to play in, so they might as well all be blind, fumbling about looking for things to do.

MikeQ

It also helps synchronize player playstyles

linksassin

The session 0 checklist is also good. In it there are a few question that should give you a hint as to why it is better to have this before/during character creation

MikeQ

Avoids the "Ugh I didn't realize that Raul was going to play a self-centered edgelord character, this is all completely different from what I expected"

linksassin

5:12 AM

@Regress.arg You're always welcome

Regress.arg

ok but to be clear, when it comes to asking a person (ok, what kind of play style did you want, where do you want to allocate your points, perks, etc) how much of that stuff can happen before session 0?

sorry initially it seemed there was a consensus that mechanical stuff can be addressed before session 0, and now it seems there's some dispute

Ben

@Regress.arg That's what should happen as part of session 0.

It can be addressed before session 0

MikeQ

It can certainly be discussed prior to session zero. But the meetup is where it gets finalized.

Regress.arg

Oooof

linksassin

@Regress.arg It can be done before, it is better done in s0.

MikeQ

5:14 AM

Er, "finalized" isn't the right word, someone help me out here

Regress.arg

actualized

linksassin

@MikeQ Ratified?

MikeQ

Either works, it seems you get the point

Regress.arg

ok so I think I'm going to give everyone a primer before session 0, so that time during it is spent more productively

....and I'm going to do quite a bit of work writing enough 'stuff' that backstories can be cut from it

MikeQ

That could be useful. How many pages is the primer?

Regress.arg

5:15 AM

oh god help me

MikeQ

Is it 1 page? Because 1 page is good for pre-campaign primer.

Regress.arg

Uh...I've got quite a few notes I have to collate together

Oh I sent everyone a one page primer already

I just didn't realize that's what that was

Ben

When I make a character, I pick race, class, stat allocation and basic equipment

Regress.arg

outlining basic NPCs, exposition, setting, potential motivations, etc

MikeQ

Pre-campaign primers don't have to be some formal publication. A page of floaty notes would suffice.

Ben

5:16 AM

That's if character creation happened before session 0.

MikeQ

Length and density is the important part. You wouldn't want to, say, have 5-10 linked documents, each of which is between 3-6 pages of paragraphs, bullet lists, and links to external wikia sites. Because players aren't going to read all of that.

Regress.arg

In general, should I let the character creation ideas of the characters populate my world building

or should I provide a world to people to build characters within

kviiri

Paradigm preference, either works

MikeQ

You build 50%, let the players build 25%, then leave the other 25% empty and fill in during the campaign.

linksassin

@Regress.arg That is a matter of preference. I get my players to tell me about their hometown. I then put those places on a map and build a world around it.

kviiri

5:18 AM

But don't go overboard with either

Regress.arg

for instance, if someone wants to use elvish paradigms of the noldor from The Silmarillion and another person wants to use the elvish paradigms of those from Dark Sun, I'd be happy to be like "Ok, there are two competing Elvish cultures on this planet"

yeah pretty much

linksassin

@Regress.arg That is something to discuss in s0. One player may be happy to use the other paradigms but didn't know the first player was using them. Or one may not like the idea of competing races and choose to play something else.

Regress.arg

or if one person wants the typical Gimli bearded axe-maker dwarf, whereas someone else really liked the hyper nihilistic mad scientist Dwemer from Elder Scrolls

ah I see

right then that's enough for me to chew on. Y'all have been incredibly helpful

Good night from East Coast Timezone, be seeing you

linksassin

@Regress.arg I also wouldn't worry about creating too much of the world before you start. Focus your energy on a starting location/mission. Make that big enough and long enough to last a few sessions at least. That will give you time to fill in the rest of the world as needed

Ben

ciao

linksassin

5:21 AM

goodnight, glad we could help.

Ben

@linksassin Very true. Building an entire world for the players from the get go can be overwhelming. A town, surrounding area, and landscape are probably as far as you want to go first up. Bring other parts of the world in as they become relevant

linksassin

@Ben Exactly, I stole my first town from the Pathfinder Beginner's box. Sandpoint came with a map, npcs and some plot hooks. I didn't follow it exactly but they were there long enough for me to decide what to do next

kviiri

Yeah I'm reminded of That One Campaign where we could barely sneeze without getting a gesundheit from a named NPC with an extensive backstory and a quest to go with it

Ben

I had one game that did the exact opposite. the DM went into what the world was like, as in, the whole planet, as a part of the surrounding galaxy - the types of atmosphere and what sort of plants that grew... it was way over board with stuff that once gameplay started was completely irrelevant to the adventure.

kviiri

This all felt very irrelevant too. Too much is too much

MikeQ

5:27 AM

Or the players don't know that these world details are just meant to be descriptive, and they'll get overwhelmed trying to keep track of everything

linksassin

I think doing that can lead to rail-roading too. "But look I made all this cool stuff over here"

I will admit my world is way bigger than the players will ever see. But that doesn't matter. Next campaign will probably use the same one and they can find it then

MikeQ

The world can be big. But as for what the players actually see, the level of detail should be proportional to the scope of the PCs' adventure.

Ben

@linksassin There is nothing wrong with more than there needs to be. Just so long as it isn't exposed unnecessarily

linksassin

Most of the worldbuilding is mostly for my own indulgence anyway. I only have detailed information for the places they might go to soon.

kviiri

The particular issue in That One Campaign I had was that we were constantly being interrupted. The pacing was awful

linksassin

5:35 AM

@kviiri Interrupted by NPCs? or out of game?

Ben

@kviiri That's my Saturday game. I hesitate to call it my "pathfinder" game for that reason

kviiri

@linksassin NPCs, plot hooks, and such.

We had a session where we did literally nothing but investigate our plot hooks and ask about a dozen NPCs the exact same questions

Getting almost the exact same answers

linksassin

@kviiri Out, sounds like a DM who didn't understand the concept of optional side quests.

kviiri

@linksassin Oh they were optional, but in the way that works for CRPGs better than tabletops.

Ben

Our current campaign is like that. We have so many side quests, with one main quest that we are tyring to prevent.

linksassin

5:38 AM

@kviiri It sounds like a s0 issue though. You were playing a different game to the DM>

kviiri

@linksassin It was an issue I raised several times during the campaign but nothing changed

linksassin

It is always a challenge to get the balance between side quests and the main quest right.

In my DMing I lean toward everything being connected to the main plot. I have enough going on I don't have time for them to get sidetracked with unrelated things. (Not that they know they are related till later)

Ben

Sidequests are:
- Catch the bad guys
- Rescue NPC
- Investigate impact of main quest
- figure out if time travelling guy from the future is still a problem

linksassin

But in one of the games I play in we had been playing nearly a year before we even knew there was a main plot. We thought it was all episodic.

Ben

Main quest:
- Stop the BBEG from destroying everything before they arrive on the planet

kviiri

5:41 AM

The GM was using the campaign book as a source of truth: if it says there's a mugging going on in a back alley when the players pass it, then so it shall be. Without concern for what said mugging might interrupt.

linksassin

@kviiri TBH I wouldn't have a problem with that. Makes the world feel real. Time doesn't stop just because the players weren't there. Neither should it stop because they are. You can choose to walk away (if they don't let you ignore it that is a problem)

kviiri

And similarly to dozens of other plot hooks.

@linksassin That's fallacious

The book already states the important stuff happens when the players are there.

MikeQ

From what I understand, kviiri's DM didn't really give the option to walk away from sidequests

kviiri

He did, but that's not the problem

The problem is that there was a lot of them and each of them is a decision moment.

linksassin

@kviiri I understand it was a problem for you. I don't think it is a problem for everyone though. I wouldn't mind a game like that. Sometimes I feel like we don't get enough decisions in the games I play.

kviiri

5:45 AM

There's a mugging, what happens, like in real life? We discuss, we decide. Deliberate. Move on. Next plot hook. Discuss, deliberate. Rinse and repeat a few times. Notice you've spent a whole session doing nothing but that.

@linksassin I don't think you really understand the problem here, though

Ignoring a side quest (or not) is a group decision and having a barrage of those is a pacing nightmare. It's not about optionality of the quests: the decisions aren't optional.

MikeQ

Was it like Elder Scrolls Online sidequests, where the NPCs chase down the player to deliver some non-sequitur mission?

linksassin

@kviiri Maybe it was an issue for your group. Not being able to make decisions quickly can definitely be a problem. The group I DM for have that issue but not the ones I play in.

kviiri

@MikeQ Chase down, or stand watch at some corner, or just look suspicious so someone will want to talk to them.

linksassin

@kviiri After you raised the issue the DM should do more to accelerate the decisions though.

kviiri

@linksassin We had a problem regarding feedback in that group

I talked about it earlier but I don't want to use the chat search on mobile, so I'll recap a bit

linksassin

5:51 AM

@kviiri That is a bigger issue, one that is harder to solve. Groups that can't communicate as problematic at the best of time.

kviiri

We had an IRC channel where we had talks between sessions, and we would usually post after-session feels there quite often. Most often, me --- I'm was the most veteran player of our group.

MikeQ

Mar 20 at 6:39, by kviiri

I don't mean to reiterate the horrors of our CoS game again in full, so in a nutshell: I was frustrated between sessions, posted my feedback and suggestions on our group's IRC channel, never got a reply from the GM but the same guy always showed up to defend the status quo without addressing my specific complaints

^This what you're looking for?

kviiri

Yyyep.

BESW

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linksassin

@kviiri That sucks that the DM wouldn't at least talk about it.

kviiri

5:54 AM

Another fairly experienced player subscribes to the pizza comparison: "Even when [RPGs] are bad, they're still pretty good." I kinda agree, but... that doesn't mean we can't have good pizza does it?

linksassin

@kviiri That's an anology for more than just RPGs. How often in life to we not want to give up a mediocre pizza to get a good one because we fear having no pizza at all?

MikeQ

Bah. If participating in a game is more frustrating than not participating, then the rational decision is probably to leave, and find a more fun and productive way of spending that time and energy

kviiri

@MikeQ Yeah. That wasn't really the case here: I enjoyed playing with them in most sessions, although more in spite of the game than because of it. Seeing one's friends is nice

BESW

@kviiri ...I have never found this to be a particularly useful analogy except in how it being really wrong usually applies to whatever it's used to defend also.

kviiri

@BESW It's used to justify all kinds of toxic nonsense

MikeQ

5:57 AM

Toxic pizza is worse than no pizza

kviiri

Also I've had really bad pizza.

BESW

Yeah, like, I've had pizza that does harm.

kviiri

But anyway, that was a significant learning experience about feedback, micro-scale democracy and the strength of arguments

BESW

People who use the Pizza Defense tend to be people who don't believe that something can do harm unless they've been harmed.

trogdor

I've definitely had horrible monster pizza

Got sick and had bad dreams

No joke

linksassin

6:00 AM

@BESW "What are you talking about? Gun's don't hurt people, I've never been shot!"

MikeQ

I haven't died, therefore death is not real

BESW

@linksassin That's... not even the most egregious example I've come across in real life.

trogdor

@linksassin eerrrg

kviiri

@linksassin (after getting shot) "I mean, we shouldn't forget the bullet's role in all this! It's the real culprit!"

linksassin

@BESW I can imagine plenty worse. But discussing those kind of people makes me feel a little ill.

BESW

6:01 AM

yarp.

kviiri

Feedback needs to be actively collected. It should be given 1:1, not only as a public forum. Feedback shouldn't be up to debate --- proposed courses of action, maybe, but the problems shouldn't be dismissed.

"I don't have a problem with that" is not an argument, and it shouldn't be a "vote" for status quo. And voting is a bad idea anyway, in most cases

linksassin

@kviiri That is a lesson I learned the hard way. I was leading a project team last year and everything seemed to be going well. No one said anything was wrong during meetings. Middle of the year we had anonymous feedback and some people raised issues. From then on I knew I had to ask for feedback 1:1 or people don't feel comfortable voicing their opinion for fear of getting shot down.

kviiri

@linksassin Yea. These are not very obvious lessons, esp. in RPGs where you're used to doing things with your friends

linksassin

It has proven useful at my table, I message each player once every few sessions to check in. Though I still struggle to get much out of one of them, that is a separate issue though.

kviiri

6:17 AM

They are learning that kinda counteract the usual ideas of how we are social

linksassin

True that, my wife and my sister are two of my players and the dynamic can be a bit strange at time.

BESW

@kviiri I love that part in Dragon Prince where the rulers are all "If everyone else agrees, I'll agree too" until the last one says "...that's not a decision."

linksassin

@BESW That was a great scene.

kviiri

@BESW Do you have the power to unstar messages? There's quite a bit starred by mistake

BESW

Which ones?

kviiri

6:26 AM

Erm, impossible to know if any of them should be of course, but referring to this

2 hours ago, by Regress.arg

Oh sorry dudes, thought it was only preservinig

So ones from that conversation

BESW

Ah.

kviiri

Merci!

BESW

Removed all the ones that didn't also get starred by someone else.

kviiri

Thanks

BESW

Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

kviiri

6:30 AM

I think chat isn't exactly as clear as it should be

Stars are indeed used for "mark for future use" eg. in Google services

BESW

Yeah, the Stack did a surprisingly good job on the chat design... and then never touched it again.

trogdor

yeah

I never thought of how confusing this was after I had gotten used to the chat

vicky_molokh

6:53 AM

Interesting. I never noticed the remove another's star / see who starred it among the list of privileges that come with high rep.

trogdor

I forget a lot of those things

mostly because I don't feel like I need high rep

BESW

It's not a reputation thing.

trogdor

ah it's a room owner thing

BESW

I don't think anybody can see who assigned stars, but room owners and elected moderators can remove all the stars from a message.

trogdor

yeah I assumed you just knew two people had stared something because,... there were two stars

vicky_molokh

6:56 AM

Quick lookup indicates that some tech-savviness allowed seeing who starred a message, but it was probably removed afterwards.

Savvyness? Ah, savviness, but just not in the dictionary.

MikeQ

The proper term is savviche

trogdor

really?

MikeQ

No, savviche is a seafood dish, spelled incorrectly

trogdor

oh

that's what happens when we can't hear the joke

XD

MikeQ

Yes I often forget that my style of humor doesn't always resonate

trogdor

6:58 AM

well not just that

I actually have heard that before

BESW

trogdor

@MikeQ if I had heard you pronounce it I would have gotten it

@BESW it's terrible but that makes it great

BESW

No, the seviche pun was pretty good. The resonate pun was terrible.

trogdor

ah

MikeQ

@BESW Ah that was unintentional tbh

trogdor

7:00 AM

I'm just not on my game right now

@MikeQ the kind that @BESW makes from what we both said

I was talking about how I couldn't hear you and you said resonate

@MikeQ yes, those happen, it's happened to me a lot, I blame the fact that @BESW is here to catch them when I do

:P

(not the fact that I seem to do it more often than I would expect :P)

vicky_molokh

@BESW I'm definitely missing the context (not being acquainted with the work under the title), but am curious what it is.

MikeQ

@vicky_molokh It's a new animated show, created by the same team behind Avatar the Last Airbender. Sometimes the writing is very smart.

V2Blast

The Dragon Prince is a solid show

Animation in season 1 is distractingly choppy, but I didn't notice the issue at all in season 2

Also: General Amaya is a great character

MikeQ

I wish Amaya got more screen time instead of the villain

LG shield paladin and possibly the coolest character on the show

BESW

I really appreciate that they don't subtitle her sign language or have people parrot it needlessly.

And yes, she's awesome. And probably the only character on the show who doesn't seem to be seriously messed up somehow.

V2Blast

7:14 AM

@MikeQ agreed on both counts

linksassin

@BESW No subtitles is the best. First time I've ever seen really good inclusiveness of deaf characters.

That being said they have form, Toph was the same but blind.

BESW

It's interesting that she's the least complex character, even compared to the villains who usually get very little development in that kind of story.

linksassin

Unrelated, this is the first time I've left a welcome message for someone with a gold badge. Don't often see that in the "first posts" queue.

trogdor

@BESW that was extremely great

MikeQ

@linksassin It's the attendance badge (which was also my 1st gold badge)

linksassin

7:16 AM

@BESW The creators behind ATLA and Dragon Prince can't be said to be typical for that type of show. Their villians are usually very well developed

BESW

@linksassin Well, Fire Lord Ozai.

linksassin

@MikeQ I know but it's odd to see someone with a gold attendance badge that has never made a post.

trogdor

@BESW it is a bit of a problem that so many characters are so messed up I think

MikeQ

@BESW Fire Lord Ozai wasn't a villain, he was a plot device. And it worked, because the show was supposed to be about the perspectives of these younger characters.

trogdor

but not a huge dealbreaker

linksassin

7:17 AM

@BESW Ozai was only the villian at the end. Like @MikeQ said. Zuko was the villian and he was the most complex character in the show

Even Azula was a deep and flawed character

MikeQ

Whereas Viren tries to be a character, but he can't because he's made out of tropes

So he either spews exposition, randomly draws villainous lines from a hat, or stares menacingly

linksassin

@MikeQ I think you're being overly harsh. Viren was a good character originally

BESW

I dunno, Viren feels pretty legit to me. Everybody's a little awkwardly developed but he's not worse than most of the others; as of season two we have a very clear sense of his priorities and values and why he's convinced himself of his own righteousness.

linksassin

He has become obsessed with protecting the kingdom even at the cost of his own humanity.

BESW

When he tells the gathered rulers that he's afraid for humanity's survival he's not lying.

trogdor

7:21 AM

yeah I feel like they have made it clear he didn't jump to the,... nuclear option until he was forced to

BESW

He started out with an underdeveloped sense of compassion for people outside his own intimate circle, which is pretty common.

trogdor

I think that was a big flag they were trying to wave "viren isn't just a crazy loooooooon!"

linksassin

Viren genuinely believes he is the good guy that was forced to make hard choices.

trogdor

not entirely convincing maybe but he had reasons for doing stuff at any rate

linksassin

He doesn't have to convince you, he has to convince himself. I like it as an arc.

BESW

7:23 AM

But he had the power--both influential and magical--for that lack of compassion to escalate into wide-ranged Bad Consequences. And a combination of pride and addiction to power keeps him from seeing any way through but forward.

V2Blast

I feel like he turned too quickly to apparent villainy in season 1, though they did develop him a bit better in season 2. he has reasons for doing things but they kinda feel more like rationalizations/justifications than believable reasons

idk

BESW

Exactly; they are rationalizations. To himself.

linksassin

Season 2 was definitely better. I'm looking forward to where they go with it.

trogdor

@V2Blast I do feel like his escalations in season one did happen a little too fast

V2Blast

my point is that it feels less like he started out making good choices and took the wrong path, and more like he just made bad choices from the start. it makes him less sympathetic/understandable

yeah, that's what I mean

BESW

7:24 AM

He's so self-absorbed and hooked on power (political and magical), and so afraid of facing his own responsibilities, that he talks himself into rationalizing objectively terrible choices by projecting that fear outward.

linksassin

He makes better choices in the flashbacks. I think there's more to him than we are aware of.

BESW

The awkwardness of the story's delivery of that concept is the same as its awkwardness with all the dialogue and character development: interesting and relatively nuanced concepts hampered by not having enough time/budget to do one or two more passes on the scripts before production.

You can tell they've got a new production pipeline for the show that they aren't really comfortable with yet, but they're settling into it.

trogdor

also,... the thing he does with telling his two kids conflicting orders,.... I still don't actually understand why he did that

linksassin

@trogdor I think it was to represent the fact he was torn which way to go

Part of him wanted to protect his kids but part of him wanted to sacrifice everything to save the kingdom.

Symbolism and stuff yeah...

trogdor

@linksassin it wasn't quite that though,.. he wanted two things he could get together, but he made it harder and less likely to get those things by splitting those orders like that

linksassin

7:28 AM

Anyway I'm off. As always fascinating chatting to you guys

BESW

@trogdor I think (a) he knows Claudia wouldn't be okay with Soren's assignment, and Soren couldn't handle two assignments at once; (b) what @linksassin said; (c) he's finally reached the point where manipulation and scheming has become its own reward.

trogdor

maybe

BESW

@linksassin ttfn

MikeQ

Because a convoluted secret plot is something a villain would do? I dunno. Apparently I'm misremembering this character and need to re-watch both seasons.

trogdor

but applying it on top of how season one had him escalate what he was doing to quickly, it feels a little unsatisfying

@MikeQ he told his son to kill the princes, and not tell his daughter, he told his daughter to get the egg at all costs, even if his son would die

BESW

7:30 AM

@MikeQ As I said, the dialogue is clunky. There are certain lines which are crucial to the character but get lost in bigger scenes.

trogdor

I'm not against it if he had had more time to slip into what he is slipping into

but again, it feels rushed to me

especially because, again, all of his slipping in season one was a liiiitle too fast for what they are trying to do with him

I know they want us to understand that he thinks what he is doing is in some way reasonable

but my problem is that a lot of the things he has done, besides that point in season two at the end when he has actually exhausted all other options, has been too fast

in my opinion

BESW

Yeah, the scripts definitely needed some work with pacing.

trogdor

I do think that part in season two was done extremely well, but it's taken away from by what they had him do before that

MikeQ

@BESW Agreed. All the ingredients are there, but out of order and out of balance.

trogdor

I feel like, for example, he should have given his kids those orders later, (PS he has freaking dark magic, you can handwave that separate message after they had embarked)

BESW

7:36 AM

I do really like the magic system for the setting.

trogdor

I do too

BESW

It'd probably make for a great Fate system.

trogdor

USE IT

I realize they felt like they had to have him give those orders, because his kids had to catch up to the main characters at a certain point

but again

dark freakin magic yo

BESW

I dunno, I think being able to telephone people with magic would put a bit of a crimp on some of the plotting.

trogdor

you can send a sinister, separate message to your two offspring to do horrible things by crushing magic butterflies, come on

BESW

7:38 AM

Sort of like how a lot of screenwriters haven't figured out how to avoid tension in horror movies without making all the cell phones die.

trogdor

@BESW I'm not asking for it to work at any range

or for him to wait tooo much longer than they had him wait

besides, his daughter already does dark magic too, still trusts him for a long time, and would probably have been fine giving the magic orb they use to do the short range talky stuff to her brother for him to get a separate message

or you know, they could have waited just a little longer for it

I'm just saying, one of the things I think he should have waited longer to decide was ok was blithely murdering the princes

not only that but making his kids do it for him

V2Blast

yeah, that's definitely not an "early-stage villain" decision

MikeQ

@trogdor Why kill them at all? Why not convince them to join him, then rule as regent?

trogdor

he supposedly cares a little for all four of those people

@MikeQ that too!!

I don't fully understand why, at that point, he thought he really really really needed them dead

MikeQ

It's one of the thorns I have with the show - too many secret motives. Sure, it means you get a GOTCHA BIG REVEAL moment, but until then, the character seems like they're just going through tropey motions

Like when he first crushes a butterfly, and then later they explain that's how his magic works

trogdor

7:45 AM

I actually like that bit

but really, the reson I am frustrated by the stuff they do with Viren is partly because of that thing at the end of seaon 2

MikeQ

Yeah, until then he seemed like another power-hungry warmonger villain

trogdor

they do that so well and I think back to his other actions and they are a mess in comparison

it could have been so much better

that all being said, I am looking forward to season 3

none of it was a deal-breaker but I did feel a little like venting about it :/

@MikeQ yeah, I didn't see a,... good reason for his escalations all the time

which I think they wanted us to see

well not "good reason" but "I totally think this is a good reason, dur hur" reason

MikeQ

@trogdor Right, there are hints that the writers want to portray him as a frustrated ends-justify-means character with sympathetic motives, but they don't back it up until late season 2

BESW

> Primal Magic. You are a magical creature born with the secret of a primal. Choose one of the primals, one skill, and one action type. When an aspect related to your primal is present in a scene, you can use your chosen skill and action to create magical effects. If you spend a fate point on the action by invoking a primal aspect for +2, you can also use a different skill or different action type instead (you may spend two fate points to do both).

trogdor

@MikeQ yeah

I just wish they had taken him slower in season 1

anyway sorry, I can get a little intense about this kind of thing when I get into critique mode

BESW

8:01 AM

> Dark Magic. You can squeeze the magic out of primal creatures. Whenever you have an aspect representing a magical creature at your disposal, you may destroy that aspect to use Lore to create an effect any other skill could create, with a magical permission like doing it at a distance or unusually quickly. You may take consequences to add double the consequence's value to your roll when using this stunt; recovering from these consequences requires destroying a magical creature.

> Shield of Self-Involvement. You have armor:2 against mental stress unless the attack invokes one of your character aspects.

trogdor

8:42 AM

lol

BESW

(Yes that means you either take two shifts less or two shifts more than the basic attack.)

trogdor

nice

and it's definitely not too powerful because anyone can usually find one of those to invoke

but they also aren't going to be invoking against you all the time either

BESW

A major quality of Soren is that he's just there to waste everyone's time while Claudia gets stuff done.

I think this stunt reflects that nicely.

Hot RPG Questions

9:00 AM

4

Q: Does a druid starting with a bow start with no arrows?

A druid's starting equipment consists of: (a) a wooden shield or (b) any simple weapon (a) a scimitar or (b) any simple melee weapon Leather armor, an explorer’s pack, and a druidic focus So, it seems that I can take the "any simple weapon" option and select a shortbow. However, t...

trogdor

9:35 AM

@BESW I sorta wish he had more going for him but then I guess he would have to be pretty different

and at the very least I think he is quite effective comedy relief

V2Blast

9:57 AM

I did like Soren's character development in season 2

BESW

Yeah, I really liked the sibling dynamic at the end there and how we saw more of each of their underlying values.

trogdor

yeah

it's just that he feels slightly flat to a degree

at least in comparison to other characters

BESW

Soren, General Amaya, and those two guards who bet on whether Queen Sarai would disarm King Harrow during their sparring match.

trogdor

lol

those two guards got loads of development

:P

but yeah Amaya is mostly just a badass

she's extremely cool but we don't know much about her other than her job and her family relationships

trogdor

10:17 AM

but she doesn't have as much screen time as Soren

so I feel like that's a partial mitigating factor

doppelgreener

10:47 AM

@BESW Same

@trogdor The show seems to leave most of its awesome developments for the finale episodes, which kinda sucks

It's enjoyable, but needs more mid-season drastic development

kviiri

How's it going, everyone?

vicky_molokh

Work: forcing an NGUI thingy to behave.
Hobby: finally played through a session where I got to play a reasonably-intelligent-but-not-self-aware AI and present its quirkiness to the party; this is hard (totally unlike usual characters) but so much fun; also managed to pull off some philosophical discussion while maintaining a depersonified PoV.

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