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Glazius
Glazius
12:00 AM
@BESW For example, when you're making goofy patter for a stage play, you're defining idioms millions of people will be throwing around hundreds of years later, so make sure to put some stuff in there about ownage and emojis.
 
BESW
BESW
12:11 AM
@trogdor There's a story that Picasso once told a friend that a painting the friend had watched Picasso paint was a fake. "I can paint false Picassos as good as anybody."
And when we talk about forgeries, we often talk about "A Van Gogh by John Myatt" or "A Modigliani by Elmyr."
That's Faucault's authorship function: the physical body of the author is largely insignificant next to our shared cultural understanding of the author which allows certain conversations to take place which would be difficult or impossible otherwise.
For an RPG example, look at how people talk about the old D&D Basic revisions as Moldvay's or Cook's or Mentzer's.
(Seriously, check out Kallgren's video I linked above. It's great.)
 
MikeQ
MikeQ
12:30 AM
Where does Lovecraft fall within this discourse?
 
BESW
BESW
The shape of discourse enabled by Lovecraft changes as the shared cultural understanding of his authorship function comes to include a greater awareness of how the person's deep-seated bigotry underlies the texts made in that mode.
 
trogdor
trogdor
@BESW I shall
 
BESW
BESW
The authorship function without that keen awareness of his bigotry gets us things like the original Call of Cthulhu games; it includes bigoted elements because they are part of the Lovecraftian mode, but is largely unaware that it does so. As the authorship function more explicitly includes bigotry, we get things like Lovecraftesque and The Ballad of Black Tom.
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
12:50 AM
hey there @Glazius
 
Glazius
Glazius
1:12 AM
@Shalvenay ahoy
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
how're things going?
 
Glazius
Glazius
@Shalvenay Working late as always. What's up?
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
@Glazius what's your schedule look like these days?
I can't recall offhand -- you mentioned you were US EST, but I don't recall mentioning your availability
 
Glazius
Glazius
@Shalvenay weekends largely, I appreciate a couple days' notice
 
Shalvenay
Shalvenay
1:28 AM
@Glazius okies
 
 
3 hours later…
Joel Harmon
Joel Harmon
4:09 AM
@nitsua60 I've poked at your editions answer, re: black 5e covers. Ping me if the pictures or text are insufficient.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
4:41 AM
@JoelHarmon Perfect--awesome. Thanks so much!
 
Joel Harmon
Joel Harmon
@nitsua60 No problem!
The blue is a bit washed out there, which seemed to merit a mention.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@BESW That poem is one of the more upsetting things I've ever read :(
 
BESW
BESW
@Rubiksmoose Don't look up what he named his poor cat.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
(the article was very good though)
Well I'm in this deep [googles] [google autofills] >:(
 
BESW
BESW
(To be fair, he may not have been the one to give it that name.)
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
4:54 AM
Which honestly I'm not sure is that is not comforting.
 
BESW
BESW
(But, you know. eeeeeeeergh.)
 
trogdor
trogdor
I mean
He could have renamed the cat
It's still on him if it was his cat
 
BESW
BESW
In the context of our conversation above, though, even with a complete ignorance of HPL the man and HPL the author function, Lovecraftian works (both in the personal and modal sense) are indisputably rooted in themes of xenophobia and anti-miscegenation. The text itself is clear on that.
 
trogdor
trogdor
As names go, for a pet or any living creature, it's highly mean and insensitive
 
user15026
5:18 AM
@BESW aaaw man why did I look that up and even if he didn't name the cat that WHY DIDNT H$E CHANGE IT
 
user15026
Also, I did not know about that poem, dang
 
user15026
Like i knew dude was super racist but omg
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@Ash Yeah that is just a whole new level of disgust for me.
 
user15026
yep
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
For this guy
 
user15026
5:21 AM
dude is like a racism onion, so many layers and it just is so deep
 
BESW
BESW
I've mentioned it before, but I think hbomberguy's "Outsiders: How To Adapt H.P. Lovecraft In the 21st Century" is a good reflection on the role of HLP in our narrative landscape, why the themes continue to resonate even though the specifics are so awful, and a potential way past HPL's dominance over the "cosmic panic" landscape without rejecting the things which made his works compelling even to many of the people he was demonizing.
 
trogdor
trogdor
@Ash exxxxxaaaaactlyyyyy
 
Glazius
Glazius
I get all my weird occult gubbins out of Cultist Simulator these days.
 
trogdor
trogdor
I mean, if one of my cats had come with that name I would go ahead and change it, the cat isn't gonna get mad at you
 
BESW
BESW
I'd also like to take this moment to mention Manly Wade Wellman, an American speculative fiction author roughly contemporary with Lovecraft, who wrote for the same pulp horror magazines. He's most famous for his "Silver John" (or "John the Balladeer) stories, which use Appalachian folklore as their inspiring material.
Wellman (in addition to having one of the best names anyone ever had) provides a completely different model for dread-style pulp horror, which I think should get more attention.
It's just really refreshing to read pulp dread stories that don't have anything to do with HPL; they aren't inspired by him, responding to him, subverting him, they're just their own independent thing and that's almost literally impossible to do these days.
 
trogdor
trogdor
5:30 AM
Mm
You have mentioned him before
I do keep forgetting you have though
It's good to be reminded
 
BESW
BESW
Does this link still work for anybody?
 
trogdor
trogdor
Well it might not mean much but my phone can't seem to load it
(it actually has trouble loading some links that my laptop has no trouble with when I get home)
 
BESW
BESW
5:49 AM
 
kviiri
kviiri
6:38 AM
@Ash And after uncovering each, you feel like crying
 
kviiri
kviiri
7:07 AM
@BESW Thanks! That's something for me to read while commuting
I actually just finished the first one
Not-a-many twists and turns but works
 
BESW
BESW
@kviiri Cool! I'm interested to hear what you think.
If you're looking for complex twisty plots you'll be disappointed.
 
user15026
@kviiri eeeergh yes
 
user15026
@BESW oh yes good I had lost this link. Or a similar one you'd shared
 
BESW
BESW
@Ash Yeah, apparently the old link's dead now.
 
kviiri
kviiri
@BESW Well I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a bit simple for my taste, in general. Though I do enjoy simpler writing in the mornings when I'm not quite awake yet :)
 
BESW
BESW
7:22 AM
Yeah, there's a lot of depth, but not a lot of complexity.
 
kviiri
kviiri
anyway, I found the protagonist immediately likeable, and I enjoy musical heroes in general (they're a big deal in our folklore too!)
 
BESW
BESW
Yey!
 
kviiri
kviiri
I'm not sure if it's because I've primed myself by reading Chinese Buddhist mountain hermit writings, but I also found the writing to evoke the remote, hilly surroundings quite well
 
BESW
BESW
Very atmospheric.
The author spent his early life in West Africa, London, and New England, but he later settled in the mountains of North Carolina and spent the rest of his life there.
 
kviiri
kviiri
Indeed! I guess my only complaint is, it feels a bit weird no one thought of the way to harm the witch before, seeing that it's something that occurs fairly commonly at the time
(trying to avoid spoilers)
 
BESW
BESW
7:29 AM
The Ugly Bird story, you mean?
 
kviiri
kviiri
Yep
Although I think there is a sensible, if not obvious, interpretation
I'll ROT13, just this one message (won't make it a whole conversation like the last time)
 
BESW
BESW

 Not a bar, but plays one on TV

I'm not a place to unwind after work, but I play one on TV.
2
 
SmokeDetector
SmokeDetector
8:29 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, blacklisted website in body, pattern-matching website in body, potentially bad keyword in body (294): Tone - in the occasion that you are endeavoring by saniuhing on rpg.SE (@doppelgreener)
 
 
2 hours later…
Carcer
Carcer
10:28 AM
calculating, challenge ratings
[sings]
 
kviiri
kviiri
@Carcer Reticulating splines
I'm working on data pipelines and thinking about playing Factorio
It's by far the best crafting game experience I've ever had
 
Carcer
Carcer
factorio is fun
especially when construction drones kick in
 
kviiri
kviiri
I've only ever built one factory in it and didn't bother to automatize enough
So I had lots of logistical problems: enough materials, but still shortages
 
Carcer
Carcer
there's an achievement I believe for completing the game (achieving rocket launch) having done only the minimum possible hand-crafting
 
kviiri
kviiri
10:43 AM
Yeah :D it's a bit bonkers and I'd stress too much about hand-crafting to actually do it
But yeah, it can be done
I love the emergence in the game... eg. I caused a facility wide blackout in my factory by expanding my copper production, because it drew coal from the same (formerly plentiful) stockpile as my boilers were
Later I caused another blackout by expanding my accumulator farms too much --- my steam power was delegated to backup at that point and ran out of fuel trying to feed the huge power banks I had built
So they ran out of fuel, causing the power to drop and drills to stop
 
Carcer
Carcer
whoops
nuclear reactors are good
and keep in mind that steam is also an energy storage medium - you can store power as steam before putting it through steam engines/turbines, you don't have to turn it into electricity to go into batteries immediately
 
kviiri
kviiri
@Carcer Yeah, I started doing that later... it feels a bit like cheating though, given how cheap and compact it is
Unless going for pure solar, it renders accumulators obsolete
Also, not very realistic to store heat in a tank like that for prolonged periods of time, but I can always pretend it's some kind of gravitational potential energy storage
 
Carcer
Carcer
11:01 AM
it's basically the optimal way to use nuclear reactors, though
hook 'em up to logistics and smart inserters in such a way that they only have fuel rods inserted when your steam storage is low
 
kviiri
kviiri
@Carcer Yeah
And well, it's the optimal way to use coal + solar hybrid power too until you've got enough solar to fill accumulators for the night
And I think they're too superior compared to accumulators when used in that way
 
kviiri
kviiri
11:35 AM
I've been playing a lot of retro games lately. I'm particularly fond of Mega Man X
It kinda hits that sweet spot of difficulty where it's quite challenging but nowhere near the "spend several hours practicing the level and let muscle memory do its job" fare Nintendo Hard often means.
 
 
1 hour later…
Derpy
Derpy
12:40 PM
@kviiri HADOKEN!
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
1:30 PM
@Derpy ⬇↘➡✊️️️
 
Derpy
Derpy
1:41 PM
@goodguy5 ^ to be fair, I was referencing this :P
 
kviiri
kviiri
@Derpy That offer sounds vaguely creepy
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
but that's not what a hadoken is?
 
kviiri
kviiri
@goodguy5 You can unlock it in Mega Man X as a very secret super OP move
except I think you must have full HP to use it or such
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
o.O
ya learn something new everyday
 
Carcer
Carcer
is that doctor wahwee
 
Derpy
Derpy
1:49 PM
And that should also explain you why someone redraw the iconic father/son Kamehameha scene from Dragonball using X and doctor Light.
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
yep
about that bidding question
2
Q: How can a group use bidding mechanics to maintain narrative balance and quantify the importance of various choices?

vicky_molokhPretext Many times, a group needs to pick one out of several contradictory or even mutually exclusive courses of events or actions. This can involve PCs deciding between multiple things to do based on their personal values and motivations, or players deciding which plot would be more interesting...

system-agnostic narrative-balance
I'm not sure how to answer it.
 
Carcer
Carcer
it is a difficult one
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
especially because it looks like they've already answered it themselves.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@goodguy5 The question is built like "I can't convince other people in my group that I am right, what rule can we come up with to make them agree with my course of action" ... or it seems that way. The 'voice in the wilderness position' can be a lonely one.
 
Carcer
Carcer
and I think it's suffering a bit from XY problem, honestly
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
1:53 PM
I thought it was "I can't convince the players in my group to be fair and equitable with their democracy"
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
I read it more like "a limitation of democracy is majority preference is the result" but maybe not.
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
or maybe all of the above
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
I am on my third read through ... might see something else in it, as there are a lot of moving parts
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
regardless, it seems that they solved their own question, so I'm not sure what an answer would even be.
 
Carcer
Carcer
they've come up with a pretty complicated solution to their actual problem
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
1:56 PM
Hello, everynyan
 
Carcer
Carcer
it strikes me as ripe for a frame challenge as XY problem but I don't have the inclination to dig into it
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
I woke up for a Skype call at 7:30 am and have to work from home today while my car's in the shop
So clearly I am hard at work
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
ha
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
It doesn't seem clear what exactly this question is asking:
5
Q: Exotic language on new character?

elseI've already read this post but just wanted to get clarification; I am new to D&D and have created a Half-Orc War Cleric who was once a soldier... His back story involves demons and I decided to add Abyssal to his languages, but with disadvantage if needed. Can I get away with this - without sw...

dnd-5e languages background
And the current answers basically seem to be guessing at what OP means
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
After my third read through, the framework of a decision tool is already presented, but the "what are the traps or loopholes in this decision tool" looks like the question. Somewhat like a homebrew "is this balanced" kind of question.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
2:00 PM
I suspect what they mean is essentially "can I have this language for free for RP reasons"
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@goodguy5 There is something about the decision tool dealing with opportunity cost of spending that silver bullet when one wants to heavily weight one's preferred course of action ... I think that's a core concern regarding loopholes or ripple effects. This is almost a game design question.
 
Glazius
Glazius
@KorvinStarmast I mean, there are literal entire negotiation games e.g. Polaris (Arthurian ice elf edition) and the indie scene was big into stakes negotiation for a while.
 
KorvinStarmast
KorvinStarmast
@Glazius Might there be a game that already does this? Sorry, game rec questions are off topic. sad face
 
Carcer
Carcer
there are games that have bidding mechanics to determine who gets to act
right off the top of my head for instance, Everyone is John
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
THIS GUY NEXT TO ME KEEPS DRUMMING ON HIS STUPID KEYBOARD; JUST CALM DOWN JEFF
sorry
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
2:04 PM
lol
Speaking of vicky_molokh's question, it seems like there's a good space for a [decision-making] type tag. There are quite a few questions about how to manage decision-making:
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
So, does anybody know of any feature in 5e that accounts for involuntary movement. Ie being moved passively (as on a mount) without using movement?
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
26
Q: New player decision paralysis

dukeregI'm introducing a new player to RPGs. She struggles to put herself in the mindset of her character and make the decisions the character would make, which is the essence of role-playing. She can get by by going along with others' prompting, but if she alone must decide what action to take, she...

gm-techniques system-agnostic new-players roleplaying
76
Q: How can I avoid players spending too much time planning?

QuentinSeveral times when I have played in or ran a game in which the players had an objective and reasonable resources, a lot of (real) time was spent trying to plan for every contingency. For example, the last part of one objective is "Get Away". This resulted in a discussion that covered five metho...

system-agnostic social group-dynamics
23
Q: How to ease my players away from consensus-based decision making?

kviiriDungeons and Dragons is a very popular RPG and most people I've played with have learned the art of role-playing with it. It favors gameplay around a tight-knit party that tends to stay together working towards the same goals no matter what happens. Usually such party decides the course of action...

gaming-style
26
Q: How to DM a performance duel that involves the full party and has meaningful decision making

VesuviumThe situation: The last session ended with the party's bard on a stage, exchanging insults with an NPC bard. The NPC bard has something the party wants, and the party has something this NPC wants. The party is expecting the next sessions to start with a "rap battle", and I want to give them one....

dnd-5e social-combat
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/49066/what-should-we-do-with-a-player-who-cant-deal-with-a-tough-decision-and-has-bro
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/46385/how-do-you-encourage-group-decisions-over-individual-actions
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/55952/using-a-rash-decision-to-move-gameplay-forward
Sorry for kinda flooding the chat there, didn't realize they'd take up so much vertical space :P
 
Carcer
Carcer
@Rubiksmoose what do you mean by a feature?
 
kviiri
kviiri
There's a few good reasons why not to decide the party's course by a simple vote
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
@Rubiksmoose I'm pretty sure Crawford has ruled that things that depend on "movement" don't require willing movement unless they say they do
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
2:08 PM
@Carcer Anything really honestly. Spell, class feature, rule.
 
Carcer
Carcer
opportunity attacks specifically call that out, then
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
I'm looking at the invisibility on a mount question. I'm just trying to see if there are any clear examples of other phrasings being used for movement that make it clear if it is passive or active movement.
 
Carcer
Carcer
"ou also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction."
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
Good one, I didn't think to check the one I knew about!
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
Note that opportunity attacks don't relate to "willingness", just whether your movement, action, or reaction is used for that movement
Dissonant Whispers is unwilling movement but uses your reaction to make you move
 
Carcer
Carcer
2:11 PM
dangit, I was going to paste your line again
 
kviiri
kviiri
A major reason why I discourage relying on democracy as a good ruling principle in tabletop games is that decisions are often not between relatively symmetric choices, eg. "this path or that path". So I can kinda see the appeal of alternatives
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@Rubiksmoose The language around OAs, BM's pushing attack, thunderwave, the shove attack?
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
related ruling:
A push is an effective way to force a creature to enter an area of effect, unless it requires willing movement. #DnD https://twitter.com/YMichaelZhang/status/744023761100353538
Tweeted by JeremyECrawford on July 14, 2016 at 3:26 AM
 
kviiri
kviiri
And voting on things that don't have a clear symmetry isn't simple at all
 
Carcer
Carcer
and can easily result in disaster
I should know
I'm bloody british
 
kviiri
kviiri
2:12 PM
@Carcer At least you don't have Rotten Boroughs anymore :-)
 
Carcer
Carcer
simple majority voting on a very complex issue where one course of action was OBVIOUSLY A DUMPSTER FIRE WAITING TO HAPPEN has us leaping towards the dumpster fire at full speed
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@nitsua60 I think those are likely subjects. Thanks.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
(also flipping through PHB now)
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
The problem with this approach is the language consistency is definitely not one of 5e's features :-/ but it might help if I can find enough examples to establish a clear paradigm.
 
kviiri
kviiri
@Carcer Yeah. In RPG contexts, many issues are also about "to do VS to not do" in which case "no opinion" is often interpreted as "no opposition", so a vote in favor. :(
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
2:16 PM
The OA language mentions both explosions and gravity--no OA on someone plummetting past you!
 
Derpy
Derpy
@V2Blast Next week on RPG General Chat: Does pushing a vampire thru your own home front door count as inviting him to your house?
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
hahaha
I'm sure some piece of fiction has tackled that at some point
 
kviiri
kviiri
"It's fine the way it is" isn't a good argument against change, on its own, nor is "I wouldn't mind that" an argument for change. I should know that, I keep struggling with that...
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@nitsua60 Yeah that was something that caused quite some confusion among our group when we started using 5e.
 
kviiri
kviiri
@Rubiksmoose Sometimes I really wonder how anyone manages to play 5e without our site
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
2:20 PM
@Rubiksmoose But I wonder if they can attack you? Can I, on my turn, Jump off a roof, attack you as I whoosh! past the balcony you're on, feather fall after I've left your reach, and end up safely away?
 
Carcer
Carcer
@kviiri most people are like PHP. Faced with being asked to do something that makes no sense they'll do something nonsensical and just carry on with whatever result they come up with
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
@nitsua60 Nope, because falls are instantaneous (for falls of less than 500 feet, at least). You'd have to Ready an action to attack in that way, which means your reaction is used up to make the attack and you can't use it to cast Feather Fall
 
kviiri
kviiri
I feel I should work on formulating that point of mine better because I feel I'm consistently failing at getting that across --- that being content shouldn't be an argument against change
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
Anyway, I made the tag: decision-making
Now I'm just trying to figure out how to word the tag info
 
kviiri
kviiri
I'm rather fed up with the pattern where I have a problem with a game we're playing and raise the issue --> someone (usually the same guy) says "eh I don't think that's really a problem" --> I try to explain the problem I'm having to no luck --> no change to anything since it's essentially a 1-1 vote
I should try to find some concise, clear and polite way to steer that conversation towards "Ok, so you don't feel this is a problem --- but if you wouldn't consider my alternative to be a problem, why not give it a shot?"
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
2:30 PM
Went with this tag info for now:
"For questions relating to player decisions, including how players can make decisions (in or out of game) about game matters, and how GMs or other players can encourage/guide those decisions."
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@V2Blast ^
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@V2Blast There's nothing in the attack rules that specify a duration they take....
If we're going to accept the ludicrous fiction that one descends 500' instantaneously, then my attacks can also be instantaneous, no?
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
Well, since you can't force yourself to stop in the one spot where you'd be able to attack normally, I'd say you could only realistically (heh, realism) do it by Readying an attack
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@nitsua60 Indeed, but the instantaneous nature of falling is explicit, whereas with attacks it is not. It doesn't matter how quick an attack is, if we accept that falling happens instantaneously there is no way to interrupt it without preplanning.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
alternately, cast Feather Fall first as you fall (since it's triggered by the fall itself)
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
2:38 PM
I agree it is all pretty ridiculous, but, on the other hand, allowing falling to have a duration also results in some absurd results and additional complexity (IIRC)
@Rubiksmoose Just like you can't interrupt one part of a spell to do something then continue with the rest of the spell.
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@kviiri I would like to use my reaction to summon lesser devil's advocate and just disagree with you. I mean, it's not like I'm using my reaction for anything else this round.
 
kviiri
kviiri
@ColinGross Only if you readied it
 
Carcer
Carcer
2:54 PM
I would let you attack normally during a fall so long as that part of the fall was within your normal movement
if the drop was further than that, you'd have to ready it instead
drop 50ft and hit something at 25ft on the way down, you're okay.
drop 50ft and hit something at 40ft, ready and reaction.
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Carcer So you'd have to attack with a flail? That's usually part of my normal falling movements.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@Carcer Are you also ruling that falling uses your movement here? Otherwise it seems kind of arbitrary no? I mean it seems more reasonable to make attacks from a realism standpoint during longer falls, not shorter ones right?
 
Carcer
Carcer
I'm pretty sure falling/jumping does use your movement
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
@Carcer Falling definitely doesn't
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@Carcer It does not.
Jumping does. Falling no.
 
Carcer
Carcer
3:02 PM
no? oh
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Carcer Jumping does. Falling can't. You're limited to your movement restricts how far you can jump.
With dash + move if you're total is 60', your jump can't move you beyond 60'
Falling definitely can.
The jump has to be part of your movement total.
 
Carcer
Carcer
where do we infer that deliberately jumping down doesn't constitute any part of one's movement
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
Yeah if falling did use your movement you would provoke OAs during it (something that explicitly is not true). It would also set up a very weird case where you would have to deal with how to fall further than you can move.
 
Carcer
Carcer
it seems a natural reading of the rules to me that that's kind of jumping
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
Gravity is a thing
 
Carcer
Carcer
3:05 PM
hm
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@Carcer From a realism standpoint there is very little difference. But ruling that way would be a mess rules-wise.
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
Can you really jump down? Seems like that's just a polite way of saying "intentionally drop"
 
Carcer
Carcer
I don't personally see the mess
if your movement is deliberate (i.e. you dropped deliberately) then use up your movement during that
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
Presumably jumping uses your movement because it takes some amount of effort
 
Carcer
Carcer
involuntary falling is of course different
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
3:06 PM
Falling... doesn't
Related ruling on fall damage for high jumps and the like:
In such a circumstance, I'd consider a fall to be a drop that exceeds the distance of the jump. https://twitter.com/nadaval6/status/636284454672052225
Tweeted by JeremyECrawford on August 25, 2015 at 9:27 PM
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@Carcer 1) falling would provoke OAs which means you would have to houserule that mechanic (falling is explicitly mentioned) 2) How do you deal with "jumping down" further than they can move?
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Carcer I could see that as a reasonable way to adjudicate. If you intentionally drop, consider it part of the move.
 
Carcer
Carcer
if "gravity" causes you to fall, you don't provoke OAs
if you cause you to drop as part of your normal movement...
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
Gravity causes all falls. That's how gravity works
:P
 
Carcer
Carcer
it makes sense ot me
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
3:07 PM
@ColinGross But then it is weird because intentionally falling provokes OAs whereas uncontrolled falling does not.
 
Carcer
Carcer
and jumping down further than you can move is fairly simply that you act normally as far as you can move and then the rest of the distance os a fall.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
It might be a reasonable houserule, but it's definitely a houserule
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Rubiksmoose Two edge cases come together to make a corner case!
 
Carcer
Carcer
lots of things about whether or not movement counts as movement and triggers whatever is weird.
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Carcer Probably easier to just say falling is falling and it ends your movement/turn/whatever you were doing ... sometimes with an ouch! at the end.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
3:08 PM
@Carcer That I agree with
 
Carcer
Carcer
I mean, it's pretty weird that you can run full circles around someone without provoking an OA, but the instant you consider stepping more than 5ft away, that's when they can hit you...
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
DMs can definitely make some sort of houserule about "intentionally falling" being a thing that lets you avoid falling prone (maybe a Dex save) if you fall a distance less than your remaining movement or something
and maybe mitigate damage accordingly
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Carcer Simplifications and abstractions get weird. Difficult to avoid.
 
Carcer
Carcer
I'm happy ruling that if you deliberately fall, you can act normally for whatever distance of the fall is still part of your movement. I wouldn't reduce the fall's damage on that basis, though; it's still a fall of whatever height it was. (Do the falling rules not have a way of accommodating deliberate drops already?)
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
"(Do the falling rules not have a way of accommodating deliberate drops already?)"
They do not.
 
Carcer
Carcer
3:11 PM
3e considered the first 10ft of a fall free if you were jumping down deliberately
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Carcer Don't you just get a reaction and that's it? It's not like the "oh crap! oh crap!" sensation sets in after 40'.
 
Carcer
Carcer
so you couldn't splatter yourself by jumping out of a tree
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Carcer Essentially taking 10 on the athletics roll? Where it's DC 1 per foot?
 
Carcer
Carcer
hm. I would definitely probably houserule that you ignore the first 10ft of a deliberate jump
No, 3e's system had you make an acrobatics check if there was further falling, success in which let you ignore the next 10ft as well
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Carcer Didn't JC discuss what happens regarding the drop of a vertical jump? You can't hurt yourself by jumping up 20'
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
3:14 PM
 
Sir Cinnamon
Sir Cinnamon
it is odd that theres a difference between intentionally leaping and landing a 20 foot fall vs being thrown from a height of 20 feet. considering one is significantly for dangerous than the other in real life
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@Carcer I really just don't see the advantage of such a houserule though personally. Seems like more complexity for no fun gain.
But then again you may see differently here.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
The most eloquently worded Crawford ruling:
If a spell creates an energy/force/ghostly thingy that isn't an object or a creature, the spell tells you how it works. The magic of the spell determines how the magical thingy operates in the world. #DnD https://twitter.com/thomasabarry1/status/1085308774108278785
Tweeted by JeremyECrawford on January 15, 2019 at 11:17 PM
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
hahaha. Joking aside. I do really like this one:
The general rules for spellcasting are in chapter 10 of the "Player's Handbook." The rules for a specific spell are in that spell's text. Anything beyond those rules is up to your imagination and your DM's adjudication. #DnD https://twitter.com/thomasabarry1/status/1085306361070665728
Tweeted by JeremyECrawford on January 15, 2019 at 10:45 PM
 
Xirema
Xirema
@Rubiksmoose My general sense is that if the movement were required to be voluntary, the invocation would say so. So I don't think your interpretation is correct. I do agree though that a strict lexical interpretation leaves room for ambiguity, but there is precedent for features/effects qualifying voluntary/involuntary movement.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
3:21 PM
@Xirema I never say it has to be voluntary though do I?
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Xirema There are other rules that make distinction between "you move" and "you are moved"
The invocation doesn't work when you're on a train, cart, or boat?
 
Xirema
Xirema
@Rubiksmoose Well, that's how I understand "active" vs "passive" movement.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@Xirema active just means using your movement.
in my parlance. I can edit to make that clearer.
 
Carcer
Carcer
@Rubiksmoose because big damn heroes should be able to handle 10ft drops without suffering some bludgeoning damage and automatically falling prone
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Xirema Does that terminology show up in the rules? I thought it was "you move" versus "you are moved" or "something moves or causes you to move"
 
Xirema
Xirema
3:22 PM
@ColinGross This is the sort of thing where we need a D&D theory of relativity.
@ColinGross It doesn't. I'm referring to Rubik's vernacular.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
@Xirema I agree
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Xirema "Rubik's vernacular" is or should be the name of a potent cocktail at a mathematics themed pub.
 
Xirema
Xirema
With a proper Theory of Relativity, we can invoke Frames of Reference to make arguments about whether Cloak of Shadows works on a train or not.
Which is a debate I know everyone is excited to have.
 
Carcer
Carcer
gelatinous rubik's cube
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Xirema But how long would it take to train on the d&d theory of relativity?
 
Xirema
Xirema
3:25 PM
@ColinGross Eh. For all the (generally deserved) prestige the Theory of Relativity has, it's actually pretty simple.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
The rules of D&D don't account for planetary rotation. 🌍 If such things are a concern at your table, DM, I leave them in your capable hands. #DnD https://twitter.com/ETGers/status/1085305803148541952
Tweeted by JeremyECrawford on January 15, 2019 at 10:44 PM
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@Xirema I have removed "active" and passive" terminology from my answer, does that help?
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Xirema For how complex people make out processors to be, they're actually just a series of nand gates.
 
Carcer
Carcer
@Xirema yeah, is it not basically that "physics is all screwed up in whatever way is necessary to ensure light always seems to be travelling at a certain speed no matter how you look at it"
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@Xirema Also do you have any counterexamples? I didn't see a single example of "you move" being used in a case where something else is moving you without using your movement. Note though movement does not have to be voluntary.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
3:33 PM
@Rubiksmoose See the ruling I linked earlier:
A push is an effective way to force a creature to enter an area of effect, unless it requires willing movement. #DnD https://twitter.com/YMichaelZhang/status/744023761100353538
Tweeted by JeremyECrawford on July 14, 2016 at 3:26 AM
Not "you move" but "when a creature moves into the area" or "when a creature enters the area"
that ruling was in response to:
@JeremyECrawford @mikemearls If you shove/push a creature into Wall of Fire, Spirit Guardians, Spike Growth, etc, do they get affected?
Tweeted by YMichaelZhang on June 18, 2016 at 4:27 AM
 
Xirema
Xirema
@Rubiksmoose There's two things I would cite. The first, as you've already done, are the Attack of Opportunity rules, which are very particular that movement must occur as part of the target's own volition. The second are spells like Moonbeam, which only require the target move into the AOE, but doesn't require volition on the part of the target.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@Xirema Maybe I'm not making something clear enough: my ruling has nothing to do with a creature choosing to move somewhere or not. Unwilling movement still breaks the invisibility.
Nothing to do with volition at all.
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
So, if one were to shove said invisible creature, it'd break?
 
Xirema
Xirema
@Rubiksmoose Isn't the example involuntary movement, i.e. a mount moves them from their position?
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@V2Blast Can you maybe explain the relevance? I just don't see it at the moment.
@Xirema No, because it isn't movement in the game sense. Movement is changing position while spending movement to do so. But that does not mean it has to be willing.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
3:36 PM
It shows that forced movement (whether through shoves or riding a mount) still counts as movement
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
So planetary movement doesn't break it, what about techtonic?
perhaps the movement of a ship?
where is the line.
 
Xirema
Xirema
@Rubiksmoose Agreed with V2: I think it's movement regardless. Doesn't matter whether they're using their own speed or not.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@V2Blast How does it show this exactly?
 
Xirema
Xirema
@goodguy5 The line is whatever abstraction the DM needs to care about.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@Xirema I have yet to see any rules support for that opinion though.
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
3:38 PM
@Rubiksmoose How do you unwillingly spend movement?
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
Because the spells in question say "When a creature moves into the area of the spell" or "When a creature enters the area". Crawford says basically: "That works, as long as the spell description doesn't require willing movement" (and those spells don't mention willing movement - I'm not sure any spell except Booming Blade is predicated on "willing" movement)
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
okay. so a mount is over the line.

how about a land vehicle, drawn by a mount?
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@goodguy5 or a boat
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
I fully admit in my answer that it is ambiguous and that the evidence is somewhat circumstantial. However, with all the evidence pointing in one direction and nothing pointing in the other I'm confused how the argument against it is based.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
@ColinGross That was the example in goodguy5's question in his directly previous message :P
 
Xirema
Xirema
3:41 PM
@goodguy5 Personally, I'd probably allow it to work as soon as we're talking a vehicle as big as or bigger than a carriage. I couldn't tell you the RAW though, and if the vehicle "vanished" while you were still moving, the feature would stop working.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@V2Blast Fair point. On the other hand, this is Crawford we are talking about and his interpretation has no bearing on a RAW analysis.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@Rubiksmoose It's arbitrary, but maybe not unreasonable? Using "your speed" as a proxy for "that early portion of your 500' of falling during which you're moving slowly enough to apply your usual not-falling abilities" doesn't strike me as that crazy. (Or, at least, not crazier than the rest of the discussion!)
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Rubiksmoose Except that we frequently cite it and consider it an expert opinion
 
goodguy5
goodguy5
So, basically, we're saying if something is two sizes larger than the invisible one, it counts as big enough to not cause relative movement?

Then I propose using an elephant as a mount
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
I mean, the question doesn't ask for the RAW while ignoring intent or ignoring clarifications of ambiguities in the rules
 
Carcer
Carcer
3:42 PM
@ColinGross careful now
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@ColinGross Some people do sure. But Crawford's words have no bearing on RAW analysis which, by definition, is an analysis of the text alone.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
That bit of the rules is (was) definitely ambiguous, and Crawford's ruling clarifies the ambiguity
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@Rubiksmoose Sure... except that we frequently cite it as evidence.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@V2Blast Sure but my answer is based only in the RAW.
@ColinGross Many times incorrectly, but yes we do.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
@Rubiksmoose Sure, and it's worse for focusing only on RAW in my opinion.
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
3:43 PM
@V2Blast You're looking for a more medium rare opinion?
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@ColinGross You keep saying "we"...
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@V2Blast That is fair.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
=)
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@nitsua60 We the people of the rpg stack.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
@ColinGross Alright, that one made me laugh :D
 
Xirema
Xirema
3:44 PM
@goodguy5 I'm actually thinking more in terms of "closed spaces". Like, put someone in a locked box and move the box, and they can stay invisible inside of it.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
@ColinGross [grumble grumble]
 
Carcer
Carcer
@nitsua60 it's far to say that dnd.rpg.se, as a collective, frequently cites crawford when interpreting D&D's rules, come on
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
[shuffles off]
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
If someone goes invisible and is locked in a box that is then moved, they're simultaneously invisible and visible until observed.
 
Xirema
Xirema
@goodguy5 Again though: I doubt that's RAW.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
3:44 PM
@Carcer Okay, I'll stop grumbling.
 
Colin Gross
Colin Gross
@V2Blast Schrodinger's Uncertain Invisibility.
 
nitsua60
nitsua60
I'm off to an early lunch anyway. Be well, all!
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@V2Blast To be fair, this ruling is hardly even explicit. I'd honestly say it is unclear he is even explicitly saying yes to all of those spells.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
@Rubiksmoose It seems clear to me, because none of the spells given as examples in the original tweet specifically require willing movement.
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@V2Blast The only applicable spell of the bunch is spike Growth though. Again, this deabte is not about willing or unwilling movement. And it is weird that he rules them all the same despite the very different wording.
Note how he says " enter an area of effect," matching the wording of the first two spells but not the third.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
3:57 PM
you know, I found a Crawford tweet that seems to support you on there being a difference between "enters" and "moves":
"Enters" and "moves into" mean enters and moves into, respectively, in D&D. They have no special game meaning, other than that "moves" refers to movement. "Enter" is more open-ended. #DnD https://twitter.com/thomasabarry1/status/937856187156004864
Tweeted by JeremyECrawford on December 5, 2017 at 1:43 AM
 
Carcer
Carcer
e.g. spike growth doesn't hurt you when you teleport into the area
but teleporting into the area of spirit guardians does.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
although it's still pretty ambiguous there
 
Carcer
Carcer
what's the actual question anyway
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
and the Sage Advice Compendium does explicitly state that something like Moonbeam's area can be "entered" by forcing a creature into it (e.g. shoving or Thunderwave)
@Carcer This is about this question:
7
Q: If a mounted warlock uses the One with Shadows eldritch invocation to turn invisible, and their mount moves, do they become visible?

LanBySeaSay a warlock is already on an independent mount (i.e. mount chooses where to move) and then uses the One with Shadows eldritch invocation to turn invisible. On the mount’s initiative, it moves; does the warlock turn visible? Alternately, if the mount is being controlled, does that change the ou...

dnd-5e movement mount invisibility eldritch-invocations
 
Rubiksmoose
Rubiksmoose
@V2Blast That makes sense though. I can wholeheartedly agree with that. Because that spell says "enters" which, in my mind is different than talking about movement.
 
V2Blast
V2Blast
3:59 PM
Rubiksmoose asked for feedback on his answer
 
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