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12:00 AM
forest has been automatically appointed as owner of this room. (What does this mean?)
 
 
3 hours later…
2:43 AM
haha what
Am I some sort of god now?
room topic changed to The Side Channel: Mostly randomly generated noise. – crypto.stackexchange.com (no tags)
 
Awesome stupid idea: Power-based fault attack on solar powered pocket calculator that makes it give incorrect results by switching a room light on and off really fast with really specific timing.
 
There, finally I'm able to change that URL to HTTPS!
@FutureSecurity Woah that sounds neat.
I wonder if the capacitance of the solar cell would be a problem though.
When light is cut, how quickly does the power output drop?
 
Depends on the device. Some shut off almost instantly after removing it from light. Others have a rechargeable battery. (Or capacitor, not sure which.)
 
Sure but I mean there may be some lag from capacitance or something.
Like if you flicker light on and off at 100 MHz, I doubt it would create 100 MHz power.
But what's the highest limit? At what point does a rapidly flickering light appear to a solar cell as a solid light due to capacitance or whatever?
 
Well you don't need instantaneous responses. In fact that's how you would glitch out the circuits, by exploiting power getting cut from some but not all paths.
I think. Not really sure about that either.
 
2:55 AM
I mean I know very little about EE, so for all I know, the solar cell has an instant response and glitching is very practical. No idea.
 
But solar cells are made from semiconductors, so it may be the case that the cell's lag time is similar to the switches.
 
Also how do you like that? The stupid Twitter question hit HNQ.
With Paul's answer at the top (though in fairness, his answer is correct).
 
Terrible idea, but a really common terrible idea. So I don't mind.
About the same as people writing phpcode like $password_hash = md5(strrev(md5($password)));
 
crc16(strrev(argon2($password)));
 
That too. Also people not really getting how collisions are irrelevant to password hashing is darkly funny.
 
2:59 AM
People tend not to understand what collisions are, period.
They tend to mix up collisions and preimages.
 
Which leads to hash = md5($pass) || argon2(salt, pass)
Which is more secure because it has the combined collision resistance of MD5 and Argon2!
 
The horror
 
If I do publish that placebo RNG thing, for Java I'm going to use SHA-512 and joke/market it as being "512 times stronger than "SHA1PRNG". (That string being the only algorithm name that JVMs were required to implement in the old days.)
 
pfft
 
I'm going to make it incredibly clear to knowledgeable readers that it's a joke. But the type of person that swaps out the default RNG for an amateur userland implementation won't know that it's a joke.
 
3:09 AM
Still better than making an amateur TRNG and using it exclusively...
 
I want to XOR or otherwise combine output from the OS RNG and output from a bullshit RNG. I can say it's as strong as the weakest of the two. Then hopefully I can trick misguided programmers into inadvertently using a secure RNG.
 
heh
Just XOR mtrand with the kernel random driver.
 
And seed it from a hash of the system time and environmental variable string.
I probably could make the same type of library for password hashing. One that bundles the Argon2 standard implementation, but does SHA-256(argon2Hash, bcryptHash, pbkdf2hash). Argon2 would have it's parameters set using the recommended procedure. PBKDF2 would just be set to use one iteration. Bcrypt would also be set to its minimum cost.
 
Ohshit that reminds me I forgot I was going to read the Argon2 specs.
I still have that PDF open somewhere but I put it off...
 
I have the problem of too many tabs open for browsing (occasionally) and PDF reading (frequently).
I fear that I'm like Paul but don't realize it. Almost imposter-syndrome-like fear. I've also taken no cryptography classes. I learned by reading anything interesting on the eprint archive feed. It all went over my head initially of course, but one day I woke up realizing I had become competent enough to at least catch other people's mistakes. I read so many PDFs...
 
3:25 AM
I don't think you're like Paul. If you think you know more than you do know, that's not a problem, it just means you still have more to learn. The problem is if people tell you you are wrong and you insist that you are still right.
In addition, we're surrounded by people who are professional cryptographers who have come up with new schemes or released research papers.
I mean I'm a crypto novice but I still read PDFs and research papers as well, and often catch other people's mistakes. I haven't taken any cryptography classes either.
 
I think sometimes I hedge too much. But I'm also on the conservative side. I won't answer something I'm not fluent in. I will read reference material. I'll tell people why something is insecure but not assure them that their protocols/algorithms are safe.
 
@FutureSecurity I've never been to school either, and I seem to be doing fine
 
@FutureSecurity I'm exactly the same in that respect.
It's one reason I have far more answers on Security.SE than on Crypto.SE.
Since I'm often not confident that I can answer a question correctly unless it's a basic question about secure protocol design, or something that I can look up. But the difference between us and Paul is that we don't consider ourselves experts.
 
As long as you stick to references and cold hard refutable math, you can't really go wrong
 
Yep, especially if you're willing to accept you were wrong and learn from it.
I've been wrong plenty of times before, especially with crypto. :P
 
3:33 AM
That's why I don't want people being too polite to criticize wrong answers. Tell me I'm wrong early before I ingrain false ideas and make a fool of myself. If my answer was embarrassing enough then I can just delete or edit my post.
 
Same. You only learn from being wrong. :P
 
I don't think you have to worry about that here - if you're wrong, someone will almost certainly say something. Heck, you don't even have to be wrong, just less than exactly correct will usually garner criticism...
 
Which is a good thing imo.
 
That's why I joined.
 
Posting Q/As here has taught me a lot about how to communicate effectively
 
3:36 AM
I joined to take a break from some of the stresses of other fields in infosec.
To learn from a community far less toxic than, say, the kernel hacking community.
I've love that the most brilliant people in crypto are also genuinely nice people.
 
People joke that if you want "the internet" to iron out bugs in your programs you shouldn't post your ideas and ask if it's correct. You should post your code and assert it's right. Then people will angrily correct you. Gratis bug hunters.
 
Pornin is a very skilled communicator
which is extra impressive considering English is not his first language
 
It isn't? He could have fooled me.
He's very eloquent.
 
poncho and fgrieu are pretty objective, even when the questions are silly
 
And provide excellent and detailed answers.
I miss Squeamish Ossifrage though.
 
3:38 AM
well, obviously!
I don't blame you for missing them
not just knowledgeable, but often times funny!
 
I saw a lot of "History Channel" and "Science Channel" TV at one point in my life. I appreciate how much skill it takes to communicate well without using faulty analogies or invalid simplifications.
 
Compare that kind of genius with the type you see elsewhere in infosec, with people hoarding 0days and hinting at how insecure everything is that few people know...
It's so much more stressful.
@FutureSecurity Before or after it turned into aliens and conspiracies?
 
I was watching it when "Ancient Aliens" first aired. Before and a little while after as well.
 
I was never really into it. I did watch Ancient Aliens once for the laughs though.
I'm amazed that people can actually fall for that stuff.
They were talking about insects being some kind of super aliens. :D
 
I hate that our culture rewards unskeptical believes... Other people make it unnecessarily costly to push back the nonsense. People still believe that horoscopes are true.
 
3:46 AM
It's just fallout from the privileged position religion has in many societies.
 
That's what I suspect. I can't believe it though because I need evidence first. But "spiritual but not religious" people almost seem to fit that line.
I've heard "Spiritual but not religious" = "I prefer making up my own nonsense to using other people's nonsensical believes".
 
heh indeed
 
I came up with an explanation for a question I had a few weeks ago. Why are people so superstitious about TRNGs and cryptography? I figured it's a combination of not-invented-here and subconscious influence of superstition seeping into a science/math related field.
 
I think it's also because TRNGs are simple enough to wrap your head around.
Plus there's the additional thrill of "fighting the man" by making it yourself.
Due to a worry of ubiquitous backdoors.
 
Well I include what Linux's /dev/random does in the "superstition" category. I can see the initial justification for it. It's kind of like using buffering to emulate a HWRNG. But the strategy of allowing RNG output to trickle out is worse than resetting the process.
 
3:58 AM
Agreed. The only good thing about that interface is for use at early boot.
Since, unlike /dev/urandom, it will block until enough entropy is collected.
But the getrandom() syscall already does that anyway...
 
I don't think it's actually that randomness is simple enough to understand. I think it's far too complex and unintuitive, so people swap out the unknown with the mystical.
 
You're right. It seems simple.
 
People actually do believe that there is a connection between consciousness, randomness, and quantumness.
 
Of course, people like Paul use the fact that he can't wrap his head around more complex concepts as evidence that no one else understands them.
@FutureSecurity Yeah, which is bullshit.
People don't understand quantum effects either.
It's not magic and it won't "solve" neurophenomenology.
 
I remembered today that the first post I saw from him included an oscilloscope screenshot. I realized he's a true believer in his intuition. References and equations are nothing compared to just eyeing the squiggles on the screen to make sure they're squiggly enough.
As his focus shifts he seems to slightly alter his methods but never realizes that his methods aren't good.
 
4:04 AM
Well he does do some EE, so I imagine that's related to it.
I think the bigger problem though is his misunderstanding of entropy testing.
I mean, he concluded that NIST tests were useless because the program he compiled from their proof of concept reference implementation had a software bug.
I tried to explain to him that he's misunderstanding the tests, of course...
But he just switched to advocating for basic file compression as entropy testing...
 
He's willfully not understanding you.
 
The thing is, he has a good memory. When someone says something (that he agrees with), he'll remember it and use it later, if sometimes out of context. I think someone said something like divide whatever estimate you get via compression by two to be conservative, so now his go-to entropy testing method is "compress then divide the size in bits by two", as if that was an accurate empirical test.
 
iirc the comment was to divide the estimate that the testing tool outputs by 2, I don't think they specified using compression as an entropy estimation tool
 
Ah, then he just substituted "testing" with "compression testing", since he thinks that it is the only way (albeit flawed) to determine entropy.
 
I think I've seen him specifically suggest general purpose compression algorithms a few times.
 
4:15 AM
He advocates for cmix, which seems to be a utility that uses neural networks or something. It's fundamentally no different from LZMA or DEFLATE.
Ew, it looks like it uses pre-made dictionaries (kind of like Brotli).
That makes it even worse for entropy estimation than LZMA. :/
 
I haven't seen that yet. He doesn't advocate compression algorithms exclusively. He also likes ent. (It has to be good, because the name of the utility is short for entropy!) When people pointed out that the idea behind "testing" entropy was flawed he switched to different utilities.
 
Which is funny because ent is far more limited than most other tests. :P
Plus there's the issue of him caring about output speed. Like why would anyone care if the entropy output of a TRNG is a trickle? All you need is 128 to 256 bits...
I mean I suppose faster does make entropy testing easier.
 
Superstition. RNG output is unclean if outputEntropy != inputEntropy.
 
Yep
I mean at least he knows that OTPs are impractical and the pad can only be used once (he seems to flip between claiming that AES is guaranteed to be broken by the NSA to saying that it's secure and can be used to make a CSPRNG).
Personally I've only ever used an OTP for pen-and-paper crypto via snail mail.
Simply because it's far easier than anything else when you have no computer.
Of course, I generated the pad using a CSPRNG, so it was more of a stream cipher with a long-term cached and preshared keystream. :P
> CMIX uses a context mixing algorithm, like most of the top ranked programs. A context mixing algorithm uses a large number of statistical models to independently predict the next bit of input. The predictions are mixed using a neural network and used to code the bit using an arithmetic coder.
Argh, this is literally the worst technique to use with entropy!
 
Pretty sure that he followed the documentation of ent down the compression algorithm journey because he wasn't willing to admit you and others were right. I think it cites compression algorithms as an entropy estimation method.
 
4:27 AM
Yeah basic sliding dictionary compression to test for failures and repetitions.
 
He bothered to do research. He just chose to look for things that confirmed his believe rather than try to prove the commenters correct.
 
Well that's what I don't get.
He's not an idiot, he's just being stubborn.
 
Believers in things like horoscopes, psychics, pagan magic, chemtrails, etc. tend to operate the same way. They think that they are doing research and genuinely believe they've been rigorous. They just don't know what research actually should look like.
Pseudo-science emulates science to fabricate legitimacy. People don't see their own behavior as being like a cargo cult.
 
I think this is a little different. Whereas those kinds of people actively look for reasons to believe that the mainstream view is incorrect, I think Paul's behavior is different. It seems more like he treats the first conclusion he comes to as fact.
Honestly it seems like high-functioning autism (and I say that as a purely objective statement, not a judgement), which I have experience with from working with autistic kids in the past. There's a tendency to lock onto the first belief and treat it religiously.
There's a sort of revulsion to the idea of knowing that you don't know, but rather than filling in unknowns with religion or "it's a mystery", it's filled with the first logical conclusion that comes to mind. It's reinforced each time you talk about it or think about it, until the answer can be nothing else.
 
Autism confusion is a weird phenomenon.
 
4:38 AM
The unfortunate thing is that the traits can be harnessed for learning. The ability to "hyperfocus" and retain information with an almost eidetic memory can be very powerful, but only if it's possible to get over the revulsion (unconscious or otherwise) of there being a period where you don't know something.
 
It is utilized though. Academics, scientists, inventors consist of more autistic people than the rest of the population.
"Neuro-types" and "neuro-diversity" are terms used. Having that diversity is evolutionary beneficial in a social species.
Even having color blind people was an evolutionary benefit. They could spot things that non-color-blind people have difficulty noticing, like low contrast things or camoflage.
 
Very true.
 
There is the "How do you tell the difference between an extroverted mathematician and an introverted one?" joke. Where the answer is "The extroverted one looks at the other person's shoes."
Eye contact aversion is an autistic thing. We just credit autism for the bad things and ignore it for others. Sort of like the Rudolf the red nosed reindeer thing. You're only a valid person when you're proven useful to a majority group.
 
yup
It's useful when a certain population is autistic since those people can often see things that most people cannot and have a very different way of thinking.
g2g
 
Bye. Oh. I forgot. It turns out scrypt actually kind of does the placebo algorithm thing. The final step is to use PBKDF2 with the password, an "expensive salt", and one iteration.
I've seen plenty of people on the internet post that they've been forced to use PBKDF2 but I'm not familiar with the reason why. Presumably a bureaucratic reason. Maybe outdated regulations, certification requirements, or managerial reasons.
Sometimes there is a loophole (apparently) where they don't say how many iterations you're required to use or anything forbidding you from using another algorithm for password or salt derivation, so people minimize the amount of work CPU they allow PBKDF2 to use and give it to a better algorithm...
Which I find amusing. They follow the letter of the law but exploit a loophole so they're able to implement best practices. It's like the white hat deception idea behind my placebo RNG library concept.
 
 
3 hours later…
7:34 AM
Is there a way to insert code into the answer but only in the background?
 
What do you mean, only in the background?
 
I remember fgrieu did in one of his answers but couldn't find. It is like a comment in the text but not shown when rendered. So, with this, you can post source code but the is not displayed.
 
Like an HTML comment, only visible via "edit"?
Because that can be done with <!-- comments go here -->
 
Ah. ok. Thanks
 
8:04 AM
Regarding that silly Twitter entropy source question...
I'm surprised they didn't want to get entropy from 4chan's /b/ board.
That is the random board after all.
And the sheer amount of idiocy on that board gives a very low SNR.
And everyone knows lots of noise is good for entropy! ;)
 
 
10 hours later…
5:38 PM
Apparently there is some weirdness with HTML comments that make it hard to escape. If it's allowed I hope the parser is implemented correctly.
I think with very very long answers the website will truncate it and add a "show more" button. @kelalaka
 
I couldn't put #include
TL:DR:
NO;
click for full answer :P
 
Like C includes? How's that disallowed?
 
I dunno. The result was weird then I remove it. But #define is fine.
Try to put #include <iostream>
3
Q: Decrypting Ciphertext with partial Key Fragment using LFSR and Berlekamp-Massey

JuxhinEdit Does the state register (the LFSR) always have to remain with 16 bits (I'm assuming yes). If so, are we shifting the register right by one (lfsr>>1) and inserting the output bit onto the left-most bit (lfsr>>1 | bit<<15) which allows us to wraparound within the same 16-bit address space. ...

 
Is it the > in the include? Try replacing it with &gt;
 
but the comment is <!-- comments go here -->, forest said.
 
5:50 PM
I guess that sort of defeats the purpose. In my browser it's treating the greater than in the include statement as the closing bracket of the html comment.
 
and, we want to click edit, copy paste and compile.
 
> <!-- include "A" --> Works
> <!-- include <A> --> doesn't
Looks like style="x" is stripped. That's good. (Hope they use a white list and not a blacklist of attribute names.)
Not what you're looking for, probably, but tell us if you find markup for a collapsible version of block quotes, code blocks, or spoiler blocks.
 
As a comment in the text that is what I wanted.
When I saw something beautiful, I share :)
@bdegnan I've solved the LFSR problem
And, I've forgotten to mention that the archaic but one of the best book 'introduction to finite fields and their applications' also contains good chapter on LFSR's pdfs.semanticscholar.org/168d/…
 
6:18 PM
Ugly solution: Replace all instances of "a > b" with "!(a <= b)" :P
Doesn't work for include obviously. You can do "b < a" if it doesn't matter what order a and b are evaluated in.
 
Well, you gave me a big smile that is enough :)
 
 
5 hours later…
11:06 PM
@FutureSecurity Turns out glitching attacks on a solar calculator likely won't work because there's a capacitor on the power supply. Oh well.
 

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