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11:32 AM
in Mathematics, 58 secs ago, by Secret
the concatenation of two series that converge to different limits will produce a divergent series
NOT THAT EASY! To get arbitrary union of finite set is finite
 
 
1 hour later…
12:36 PM
@Secret what does induction on empty set means?
 
It means, by iterating a U {a} finitely many times starting with a being the empty set,
that is, the whole set is generated from the empty set
It obviously cannot be infinite unless we somehow find an extremely weird way to do so, which is the aim of this whole interfinite project to make countable sets singular
 
You mean something like ...UUU....UU{}?
Using ZF normal definitions I don't think it is possible
 
1:04 PM
Yeah
What axioms need to drop to make that possible is the next step of the investigation
 
It would be easier to find what axiom need not to be dropped. ...
The recursion theorem for omega is strong enough to disprove your theorem
Hmm, I think that even that is too strong, recursion over arbitrary finite number is already strong enough to disprove that
 
I currently have this wild thought of making U failed to be associative, but I have no studied in detail what will happen
i think that will change the underlying logic system, thus we will be no longer classical logic
 
Hmm... Interestingly enough, remember the paper 'notes on finites sets' you read a little while ago? Their definition is strong enough to disprove the theorem(I think)
@Secret oh, nice
 
I recall some time earlier when I was experimenting with that, I can somehow define sets that are less than finite (as the union of them will be finite),but their power sets will become very strange such as having two subsets with some shared elements but their intersection will be empty
however I never get to the point to test them with that theorem which showed their finite sets is equivalent to the natural numbers thus I think bijections will make them ceased to exist
 
D-finite are also finite with choice :), you will need to give up on the axiom that proves that those 2 definitions are equal
 
1:15 PM
for example imagine the power set of {a,b,c,d,e} is only the subsets {a,b,c}, {c}, {c,d,e}, then it seems at first glance one can made these weird sets
Dec 7 at 8:07, by Secret
Lemma 1.2:
@Holo the key to do that will be somehow blowing up one of the inclusions in Lemma 1.2, so that theorem 1.1 will fail
 
Right now I'm on my phone so I can't read math good, I'll look at this when I'll be on the PC
 
ok
The current experiment is to have some weird finite sets X that bijects with some natural number n, yet have powersets that are of smaller cardinality than P(n). Then one can have weird things like "2+2+2=3"
this will basically mean the powersets of these sets X will be prescribed as an axiom and leading to weird things that some partitions of X can be empty
 
What P(n) stand for?
 
powerset of the ordinal n
 
Oh, so you want to "find" a set there bijective is not kept for the subsets
 
1:30 PM
that is one possible way to break Lemma 1.2 and have "subfinite sets"
 
The problem is "finite"... With no AC there are weirder things, in the infinite world
 
This is why I read that notes on finite set, because it gave a notion of finite that is elementary enough and make no explicit reference to the naturals
thus allow us to investigate what really means to be finite in order to create weird sets from that concept
In summary, there are three kinds of weird sets I want to create:
1. Subfinite sets: A set X which does things like "1+1+1+1+1=3" etc.
2. Interfinite sets: Some not infinite sets such that finite union of them is infinite. Alternately, find some set theory that retain as much ZF as possible that make aleph0 singular
3. (I cannot think of a name) set: arbitrary union of finite set is finite. Tobias and allesandro have mentioned $V_{\omega}$ is one such model and it models ZFC-infinity
 
Call the last one everyday sets
Actually all models of ZF are everyday sets
 
But infinite disjoint union of finite set is not finite
 
We define infinite as "not finite", so by definition interfinite sets are finite
Ohh, arbitrary
Yea yea
 
1:40 PM
2 is the one I am most interested in, because I want a set theory that can "reach infinity from below"
 
One as well may consider, given union of finite and subfinite what will the result be?
Or is it even defined?
 
I think it is still subfinite since even a disjoint union of a finite and subfinite set will have a set that has less subsets than the powerset of a set formed by collecting all its individual elements
(I have wrote a proof of this in an earlier experiment but it is not quite fleshed out)
 
That means that it is impossible for finite set to contain subfinite subset
 
Dec 7 at 10:45, by Secret
Therefore subfinite sets $T$ only has subsets of the form $U\cup A$ where $U$ is subfinite and $A$ is finite
To be checked when I get back to PC
 
Nice
 
1:50 PM
It should be noticed that proof might be wrong because I used the misunderstood version of an inductive system, so subfinite sets may be unable to exist
I might need to revise the proof later. Anyway, to make things clear, we can start with defining what a subfinite set is:
 
It will be interesting to see where exactly they fail, the more axiom we find to be problematic the closer we are to find some model of interesting finite sets
 
That is the aim, I always do some kind of reverse mathematics to create structure so pathological that most people will go O_O
 
Then, after creating it we will start developing analysis using it and define primes(although I highly doubt that primes will be definable) and move all math to this theory
 
A set $T$ is subfinite if $T \subset A$ where $A$ is finite, $|T|=n$ for some $n\in \Bbb{N}$ and $|\mathcal{P}(T)|<|\mathcal{P}(n)|<|\mathcal{P}(A)|$
"Basically, T are sets where the powerset operation gone screwed and unable to sprew all the possible subsets that is to be expect of finite set with that many elements"
The powerset operator is defined to be all the subsets of a given set. This left behind a convenient loophole where it could be that all the subsets of said set just happened to be less than we expected
What I am suspecting should I push along this route is that associativity of Union may be broken, but I am not sure yet
i think when I work with these weird things long enough I might start to have the following conjecture:
> Almost all weird system breaks associativity of the logical operator "or"
to me that does not seemed far fetched as amorphous sets are defined to be sets which always partition into a finite and an infinite subset
So subfinite set in essence took this one step further by having most partitions to be empty
 
Remember that if we are moving away from FOL we don't have completeness
 
2:05 PM
Yeah, that is something to be careful, but then we already have incompleteness theorem so maybe not much is lost
 
It is, completeness is very convenient
It is hard to stop using it after you start getting used to it
 

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