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12:33 AM
Question: this line mov edx, 16Dh mean move 365 into edx right i am not crazy or anthing
 
Anonymous
12:58 AM
@Downgoat Looks right
 
1:27 AM
you could still be crazy though
 
1:42 AM
@flawr wow that graph was even worse than I anticipated
 
Since the argument to a perl sub is @_ by default, is there a way to define a sub that operates on the caller's @_, like shift and pop?
 
Anonymous
@Pavel Not without explicitly passing the caller's @_, I think
 
Makes me wonder how shift is implemented
 
2:08 AM
0
Q: Logic Gates Manually

qazwsxMake a program that simulates the basic logic gates. Input: An all-caps word followed by 2 1 digit binary numbers, separated by spaces, such as "OR 1 0". The gates OR, AND, NOR, NAND, XOR, and XNOR are needed. Output: What the output of the entered logic gate would be given the two numbers: ei...

 
 
1 hour later…
3:16 AM
@Pavel shift onlt does that in a subroutine. outside of one it shifts ARGV
 
 
1 hour later…
4:38 AM
@quartata I know, but how does it get access to @_ while inside a subroutine.
@_ gets overriden when a subroutine is called.
 
5:25 AM
@quartata do you have any idea on how I could attempt hijack an Object-C msg/method call with LD_PRELOAD or something... hex editing not giving much success but given the weird messaging nature of ObjC not sure if possible
 
 
1 hour later…
6:53 AM
oh my god I love Objective-C turns out I can just do method_exchangeImplementations and BAM runtime swizzling!!
 
 
1 hour later…
7:58 AM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

tshScoring Chinese Hearts card-games code-golf Chinese Hearts, also known as Gong Zhu (拱猪, Chase the Pig), is a variance of Hearts game. It is a 4 player card game which aimed to earn higher points. You may read more about it on Wikipedia. This time, we want implement a program (full or function) ...

 
 
1 hour later…
9:15 AM
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

RenzeeeQwixx KoTH In this King of the Hill, our bots will be playing Qwixx. In Qwixx each player will try to get as many points by picking the sum of two dices and marking that number on your own scoresheet. The scoresheet has four rows with different colors (red, yellow, green, blue) with numbers rang...

 
 
2 hours later…
11:18 AM
@RushabhMehta MCVE please...
@RushabhMehta Anyway, you're not supposed to have the let there. There are only 2 3 places you should have let: stackoverflow.com/questions/8274650/…
 
 
1 hour later…
12:39 PM
1
Q: Golfed script length with Unicode (non-ASCII) characters

mazzyThere are tasks explicitly defined with Unicode. For example, Supreme Sum String To correctly work with a unicode data, a script should be saved as UTF-16 or UTF-8 with BOM. Even if the script itself does not contain Unicode characters. At least for Powershell it is. How to calculate the length...

 
0
Q: Length of a UTF-8 byte sequence

nwellnhofDetermine the length of a UTF-8 byte sequence given its first byte. The following table shows which ranges map to each possible length: Range Length --------- ------ 0x00-0x7F 1 0xC2-0xDF 2 0xE0-0xEF 3 0xF0-0xF4 4 Notes on gaps in the table: 0x80-0xBF are continuation bytes, ...

 
 
2 hours later…
3:00 PM
0
Q: Variable replacement in string

BoopathiDeveloping an application in c# to replace variables across strings. Need suggestions how to do that very efficiently? private string MyStrTr(string source, string frm, string to) { char[] input = source.ToCharArray(); bool[] replaced = new bool[input.Length]; for (i...

 
3:15 PM
0
Q: Tower of Hanoi Solver [C++]

Adhesh SagarThis question has been answered previously on all major computer languages. But can you do that in C++ ? The Tower of Hanoi (also called the Tower of Brahma or Lucas' Tower[1] and sometimes pluralized) is a mathematical game or puzzle. It consists of three rods and a number of disks of different ...

 
3:46 PM
0
Q: Amidakuji (阿弥陀籤) simplification

TobiaIf you have ever had any exposure to Japanese or East Asian culture you will have surely encountered the Amidakuji game: As Wikipedia explains, it is a type of lottery drawn on paper and used to randomly select a permutation of N items. For example, it may be used to randomly assign a starti...

 
4:02 PM
0
Q: Multiplicative undelta

BMOLet us define the "multiplicative deltas" of values \$[\; a_0 \cdots a_N \;]\$ as: $$ [\; a_1 / a_0 \cdots a_{i+1} / a_i \cdots a_N / a_{N-1} \;] $$ The reverse operation - namely "multiplicative undelta" - returns values such that the above operation results in the given values. Example Give...

 
4:17 PM
0
Q: Find the cheapest way to construct a string given an append and clone cost

Joseph chirstopher You are given as input a target string Starting with an empty string, you add characters to it, until your new string is same as the target. You have two options to add characters to a string: You can append an arbitrary character to your new string, with cost x You can clone any substring o...

 
 
3 hours later…
6:51 PM
@AdmBorkBork It wouldn't surprise me if PPCG is dying, and I think the site software's to blame; the incentives are wrong, meaning that what the community would likely enjoy, and what the software pushes the community into, are different; and that in turn means it's easy to burn out
2
in particular, the incentives are very much in favour of quickly-written, low-effort answers, whereas some people prefer both creating and reading high-effort answers
4
 
I wonder how Axtell will turn out
 
well, it should be better than the SE software in most respects (although the fact that, as of last time I checked, it doesn't support logins of its own mean that I'm unlikely to use it); however, I'm concerned that it's too close to SE software and thus will make some of the same mistakes
as for TNB dying, in general SE chat is very annoying to idle because it can't "share" with other chat services, you need to give SE chat a tab of its own in a browser with JavaScript enabled
and if you're using an account with <20 rep (like I am) it gets even worse because then you can't log into chat and PPCG at the same time
 
@ais523 Well, you already have an SE account, so why not use it?
 
(if I come here with a <20 chat account, people start pinging me and yet I can't reply)
@Pavel oh right, it supports SE login, in that case I could use that
 
I'd bet that you are the only person who uses TNB who is affected by those chat issues.
 
6:56 PM
over the last few days I've been idling TNB but in a non-JavaScript-supporting browser, by repeatedly refreshing the transcripts; that's much more convenient for me than logging in and joining the channel would be
 
Wait ... I've seen that username before, @ais523. And not just from PPCG and TNB... do you know why it wouldl seem familiar?
 
Ais is on the nethack devteam
And also a mod on esolangs.org iirc
So maybe you've seen him on one of those places
 
@Zacharý I use it in a lot of different contexts, you've probably seen me in one of my other guises
 
@Pavel OH, that's where I've seen it! I recently just started trying nethack, and I knew that name felt oddly familiar.
 
Hey folks, Taco's here right now.
 
7:03 PM
if TNB were hosted on IRC, I'd be here much more; if TNB were hosted on Discord, there are other people who would be here much more
one IRC channel I'm in has a Discord bridge, so that IRC and Discord users can talk to each other
 
...
 
We have a discord
It has a one-way chatexchange bridge
 
@ais523 (I have no idea about IRC but) Discord doesn't have the reply functionality that SE chat does, which is the thing I like the most about it
also AFAIK there's no way to view a discord server without choosing a username
 
IRC is more primitive in that sense, but in some ways less annoying
you're meant to be more "in the moment" with IRC rather than scrolling up to old comments to link them
in fact, many channels choose to not even have archives, so it's more like a realtime communication
that sort of thing is less popular nowadays though
 
Beholder's !tell is pretty useful
 
7:10 PM
also CMCs without replies would be strange
 
@Pavel: most large channels have a message-bot for if you want to leave a message for someone who isn't there
actually, CMCs would be more convenient without replies because you wouldn't have to click the link to follow it
a CMC on IRC would look something like this:
CMC: print the first 10 triangular numbers
 
The only other large channels I'm in are #fedora, which has basically no moderation, and #nethack, which seems to actually has less activity than #hardfought and is mostly a dump for Rodney livelogs.
 
<ais523> CMC: print the first 9 triangular numbers ← Jelly, 4 bytes: 9R+\
err, I changed it from 10 to 9 because I can't remember offhand how you write 10 in Jelly :-)
 
@ais523 if the CMC message was 3 lines long, that'd be a bunch of spam text though
 
@Pavel it used to be more active, but it's been mismanaged somewhat and #hardfought managed to steal most of the traffic
 
7:14 PM
@ais523 :) Superscript 5
 
@dzaima well, you could just use a ping, or a description
ais523: about that triangular numbers challenge: does 9R+\ work?
we'd probably have a bot in the channel too so you could just run the program
#esoteric on Freenode used to have a bot for running programs in esolangs
 
@ais523 also answering a 2 year old CMC would be strange
 
Yeah, but if it gets too hectic then there's spam everywhere.
 
it still does but it hasn't been updated for years so it only really works for years-old esolangs
we have an overspill channel for when things get spammy
 
@ais523 We made this bot for chatexchange and decided we didn't want it in TNB
 
7:16 PM
but #esoteric isn't really large enough to use it at the moment
 
It still runs in the APL room
 
It's been a while since I golfed, I couldn't help myself.
 
Yeah, but APL is APL.
 
@ATaco that's only six bytes shorter than just hardcoding the output :-D
 
7:17 PM
That sounds like 6 bytes saved.
 
@AdmBorkBork I concur, imo PPCG's decline started after WB 2017. At least temporarily, I've also lost interest in participating tbf, for reasons ranging from personal ones (first HS year etc.) to those I think the community has: the fact that we cannot do anything about the voting system, a painfully unhelpful Sandbox, decrease in challenge posting rates, silence in chat, regulars leaving etc. It's painful to see it this way so I completely lost incentive.
 
@ais523 IMO that's not most of the problem, since SEs software hasn't changed much in years and PPCG has been popular for years. I'd rather think it's either that most good challenges have been already made and the rules to make a good challenge becoming way too gigantic for a new user to make one first try & that the sandbox isn't forced.
 
@ais523 btw, it's 9RÄ, Jelly has evolved :-D
 
@dzaima something that struck me recently is that the decline of probably means that PPCG is getting less traffic from outside
popcons have issues, but they pretty much by definition tend to produce answers that people are interested in
 
Tbh I've not been here because I felt very little reason to golf.
 
7:19 PM
and for that reason, most of the time a PPCG answer gets linked from another site, it's a popcon answer
 
@ais523 right, forgot to mention that. Yeah, it's probably what made PPCG popular at all :p
 
(You took away my winner tick just as I started being able to win challenges :( )
 
some voting patterns on PPCG are very interesting, e.g. this one:
23
Q: Encode - Shuffle - Decode

Delfad0rChallenge Your task is to encode an integer as a string of ASCII characters, then successfully decode it after said string has been randomly shuffled. You will write two programs/functions, which will be referred to as Encoder and Decoder. Encoder Input: an integer \$n\$ in the range \$[0,2^...

 
 
the top answer intentionally scores worse than the second answer, and was submitted later
yet it has a higher score
 
7:21 PM
@ais523 Canvas, 5 bytes
 
(also, they're both by me, so I don't have any bias in this issue)
 
Anyway, Now I'm making mods for a VR game, so there's that!
 
in this particular case, I suspect that what's going on is that people think that the question's scoring criterion is broken, and are voting for the answer that "should" score best (also, it was rather more effort to golf than the better-scoring answer)
 
05ab1e, 4 bytes (ascii-only :D)
 
@ais523 I don't think that's too surprising. Personally, I would vote for a long answer that imposes arbitrary restrictions on itself that make the problem/solution more interesting (e.g. "vim, but only using normal mode"), but not a 5-byte golflang answer with no explanation.
(in that case both answers are interesting, but the longer one more so)
 
7:29 PM
I don't think it's surprising either, but I think it's making a point I hadn't previously noted
incidentally, I've also realised that most of my answers to old questions go into the late answers queue (given that I've locked my account at 11 rep), which is giving them something of a competitive advantage over other peoples'; this seems like yet another Stack Exchange software exploit, although of course I don't get rep from it
 
@ais523 if voting should be done strictly by byte-count, why even have voting and not just give automatic points? And as it's automatic points, you need automatic checking, and that requires a list of allowed langs-- you've just made anagol
 
@dzaima I think anagol is closer to the perfect golfing site than PPCG, but the best possibility is somewhere in between
 
@ais523 As long as you're here (and not in IRC), it looks like Luxidream just died by eating a frost giant corpse in NH4 and it gor recorded as "a quick snack" (hardfought.org/userdata/L/Luxidream/nethack4/dumplog/…). How does that happen?
 
ideally we give points for the answer (based on objective victory condition score) and points for the explanation (subjectively)
@Pavel that sounds like probably a bug?
 
@ais523 Right. You still work on NH4, right?
 
7:33 PM
very slowly
I have so many other things to do
 
@Mr.Xcoder That echoes a lot of my thoughts and feelings on the matter as well
 
@ais523 do you think the strictness in requiring answers to be ranked 100% objectively (or at all) is detrimental to the site? (especially given the efforts at moving away from the traditional SE model, like not accepting answers)
 
personally, I dislike anagol because the input format is too strict (due to automatic testing)
 
@Pavel a quick check of the code implies that utracked must have been zeroed out somehow, but I have no idea how
@Doorknob I think having one victory condition per question is detrimental to the site
 
@EriktheOutgolfer I actually think that's one of it's greatest strengths. An answer either works or it doesn't, and if input is inconvenient, it's inconvenient for everyone equally. No more quibbling about IO formats and whatnot
 
7:35 PM
"equally", hm
 
in general people have a good view of what sort of answers are better than others even if it isn't defined objectively
 
1 2 3 is GolfScript's paradise, but not Python's, for example
 
Sure, but golfscript and python aren't competing
 
there are actually two competitions in every anagol challenge
 
there are some questions (like this one or the Quest for Tetris) where the victory condition is more or less "bolted on", the hard part is writing the program at all
 
7:36 PM
one is a per-language competition and the other is competition between languages
 
and in fact, in the linked question, the victory condition arguably made the answers worse/less interesting by encouraging brute force over cleverness
 
(Popcon is by far my favourite type of challenge tbh)
 
For example, I would have loved to answer this question yesterday. I wrote up an answer, and actually greatly enjoyed gofling it. But the IO was extremely inconvenient so I held off in hopes that it would be loosened later. And now I don't care to answer it since it's old
 
@ais523 see, the thing I very much like about PPCG is the freedom of doing whatever you want, as long as you're trying. Also this
 
If the IO was set in stone from the getgo, I would much more likely have answered it
And actually for that matter, a huge number of answers on that challenge are invalid atm
 
7:38 PM
@DJMcMayhem the IO was as bad at the challenges posting as it is now though
 
> And now I don't care to answer it since it's old
That's a big problem with the incentives on PPCG; if you submit an answer to an old question few people see it, so regardless of what your motivation is (fame, reputation, appreciation from others, etc.) it's fairly unsatisfying to see the answer ignored
 
0
Q: Find a way to determine to which fibonacci squares a given coordinate belongs

Citronmelisa Given a random coordinate (x,y), determine in which square (squares are referenced by their sidelength) it is (or the borders of which squares). The squares are drawn in a counter clockwise direction, that is, the first square is drawn in the first quadrant, the one after is to the right, the ...

 
/me rages at StackExchange chat markdown
@NewMainPosts that's a good question but it's missing a victory condition
 
@dzaima Yeah, but if I knew that I would need to spend a couple of bytes on input parsing, then I wouldn't be quite as annoyed as I am wondering if it will allow something more convenient in the future. And especially right now since if I did post a valid answer, I'd be competing against a bunch of answers that take input in a more convenient format
 
I'm not sure whether it fits better here or on one of the mathematical SEs
@DJMcMayhem in terms of I/O formats, I believe that they should be standardised much more than at present
 
7:40 PM
@DJMcMayhem That's exactly the situation I'm in as well! And to be fair, I go through that all the time, not always due to I/O, but because I get there too late and people already started voting the FGITW into oblivion.
 
I'd like problems to just say "take two strings and an integer", or whatever, and have a wrapper generator for each language which generates a "take two strings and an integer" wrapper
 
@ais523 right, that is a thing here sadly, though I don't really see how to fix it, without deleting the "new questions" page (and making APIs impossible to replicate it)
 
this is more or less how Hacker Rank does things
 
@Mr.Xcoder Exactly. I greatly enjoyed coming up with an invalid 25 byte python answer that I'm really proud of (lambda l:[*{*l}][1:][-1:]), but answer challenges isn't nearly as enjoyable as golfing for the heck of it
 
7:42 PM
@dzaima anagol hides answers on new questions; that would fix this problem, and also gives people an incentive to solve new problems even if other people have solved them (because there are no spoilers, so it's clear you solved them independently); however, this approach has problems of its own
 
*answering
 
@ais523 that'd 1) not allow ordering the arguments as you like 2) make it hard to have multiple program types (i.e. full program, function, REPL) 3) again, this
 
@ais523 and post-mortem answers are highlighted
yeah, that's some good stuff
 
I can see a style of site working in which a question goes up, people spend a week or so answering, then there's a "big release" where all the answers are released at once (and people can still submit late answers, but with the recognition that they might not be appreciated as much); you'd have two queues, "new questions", "recently completed questions"
 
I just want to point out this post pretty solidly violates our current opinions of popcons.
 
7:44 PM
@dzaima 1) and 2) are arguably features, not bugs; 3) could be solved via a "submit a wrapper generator" option
 
@ais523 anagol doesn't have voting though, so it isn't comparable
 
it's comparable, just different
presumably you vote on answers (and their accompanying explanations, which anagol also doesn't have) during the post-mortem period
in anagol, the closest you can get to an explanation is by modifying your username
 
my opinion is that it's not just the code that should be hidden, but rather the fact that answers even exist, unless the challenge is endless
 
that's the main reason I dropped out from the site
 
yeah, big problem
 
7:46 PM
@DJMcMayhem I couldn't have illustrated my thoughts better myself! I enjoy golfing but... Lately, I've solved plenty of challenges but just denied to post the answer because I knew it was not going to get any attention, because one must scroll all the way to the bottom of the page to even see it...
 
anagol should really support login...
 
@ais523 as in "you can't count an answers popularity", so there's no way to tell if the feature is actually increasing answer visibility
 
@EriktheOutgolfer one idea I had is that you can only see answers (including the existence of answers) if a) the challenge is post-mortem, or b) you've already submitted a better answer
 
@ais523 b) no, no, no!
 
@EriktheOutgolfer I'm not convinced this is a good idea, but I had it
it probably only works on very simple challenges, where you're unlikely to have two answers which can be combined to make a better answer
 
7:47 PM
just because your answer is shorter, doesn't mean that the longer answers don't actually have something you didn't think of and can save you some bytes
^^ ninja
 
@ais523 3) I wouldn't have bothered (and at the time, JS & Processing were about the only 2 languages I knew too)
 
starting golfing with esolangs (even golfing languages) is pretty atypical IME
most golfers started on a very well-known practical language, like Perl, Python, or JavaScript
 
@ais523 ok sure, but you using a browser with no JS is pretty atypical too
 
my first answer was actually in Pyth :D
 
I think my first golfs were in Perl (over on anagol)
 
7:49 PM
but yeah, I generally used Python during my early days
 
Oh good ol' Pyth. I had so much fun with it
 
@Mr.Xcoder what happened
 
CMP: What language is your first golf written in?
 
@Mr.Xcoder ಠ_ಠ I was in the middle of writing a strawpoll of that
 
Lua.
3
A: Print an alphabet wave

ATacoLua, 80 65 Bytes. s = string c = s.char for i=1,26 do print(s.rep(c(64+i)..c((65+(i%26))),13)) end With help from Leaky Nun c=("").char for i=1,26 do print((c(64+i)..c(65+i%26)):rep(13))end Lua is a pretty inefficent language in regards to handling of strings and such, so this is the best I...

 
7:51 PM
@Downgoat yeah I'm a little late but it sounds like you want method swizzling. which is probably Objective-C's best feature, makes it really easy
 
it'll be really hard to even find my first PPCG post at this point because they were all anonymized
 
@LeakyNun Hi, Leaky! I really don't have time for it anymore, plus I've lost incentive for golfing in general. My complaints have been expressed above :)
 
and anonymized user IDs don't show up in the search
I wonder if they show up on SEDE?
 
yep, that's what "anonymization" means
 
@Mr.Xcoder Python
 
7:52 PM
@EriktheOutgolfer well, not really, the user ID shows up if you go to the post in question
 
My highest scoring answer is also in Lua
🤔
 
yep, but you can't really search with it (it will return 0 results)
that is, I still remember your previous ID, but I can't search with it anymore
 
@Mr.Xcoder An awful Swift golf :(
@LeakyNun How is college going? :D
(long time no see...)
 
it's going well
I'm always here lol
I just don't talk
 
Glad to hear that :D
 
7:57 PM
@EriktheOutgolfer looks like searching via SEDE on "OwnerDisplayName" works; it looks like my first submission to PPCG was this answer
hmm, this in turn implies that deleting an SE account is more or less completely pointless
my first answer was this one, in Prolog
 
@ais523 2&3) also the input order being locked means even harder to compete between languages (as some might take implicit arguments differently, and some might just be unusable with bad input order), and I feel like competing between languages is fun too (golfing is about fun, right?)
 
@dzaima I consider "languages being unusable with bad input order" to be a very desirable property; many golfing languages used at PPCG aren't actually good for solving general problems because they're taking advantage of the fact that PPCG lets you freely reorder inputs
so if you want to be able to have a fair competition between languages, you don't want to allow languages to cheat via being able to fob off half the program on the input encoding
 
@ais523 it switches input order from being choosable equally for all languages to complete luck, which I don't think is that fair
 
well, it should average out over large numbers of questions
and in a well-designed language the input order penalty should be small (e.g. in Jelly it's normally 2 or 3 bytes, 1 if the program is simple enough)
 
@ais523 see, that takes time to do. I like competing with Charcoal per-challenge, not per-site, as the latter is impossible for one human to do
 
8:04 PM
@quartata yeah, I got the method swizzling but unfortunately new versions of macOS don't allow DYLD_INSERT_LIBRARIES on signed apps :/ so I either unsign the app and it breaks with updates or I completely disable SIP but not portable :(
 
@dzaima out of interest, do you find Charcoal easier to write in the expanded form or the compressed form? the compressed form seems more natural to me somehow
 
@ais523 I don't golf in/even know charcoal; I compete with it with Canvas.
 
oh, do you mean you're competing against Charcoal, as opposed to using it?
sorry, I misparsed your sentence
 
Also: does anyone here happen to know how macOS app store/sparkle does updates? Do they do some sort of binary-delta update, is the entire App replaced?
 
I'm pretty sure Charcoal is unsupported outside of PPCG anyway :D
also, "competing with" something generally means competing by using it
 
8:09 PM
@Downgoat sparkle does delta updates
 
sweeettt
 
@PhiNotPi right?! I didn't expect that either
 
@EriktheOutgolfer here's an SEDE query that finds all the questions and answers by my old account, date-sorted, with the title of the answer and/or of the question to which the answer was given
err, except that the name and SQL don't match each other because I changed the sort order :-D
there, I edited it to have a better title
 
and not a single negative answer...
 
8:15 PM
@quartata oh.. given that I modified the original binary I guess Sparkle will just replace my modified archive
 
@EriktheOutgolfer people only downvoted my answers when they were wrong, and I tried to delete incorrect answers (and typically fix them sometime later)
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

RogemAscii Table to UTF-8 When I write documentation, comments, etc. I love making ASCII tables. They usually end up looking pretty good, but I always feel that they could look even better - especially since UTF-8/Unicode includes the box drawing characters. However, these characters are very burdens...

 
 
2 hours later…
10:44 PM
Windows 98 GUI implemented in GLSL: shadertoy.com/view/Xs2cR1
 
@Mr.Xcoder I think it might've been GNU APL.
 
11:38 PM
@Mr.Xcoder A questionable python 2, and then ironically GolfScript, which I haven't touched since that answer.
 

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