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8:00 PM
Oh
 
I'm working on a team effort, but still no good results at all!
 
Teams are hard to figure out. Gold Collectors KoTH 2.0 will have a team system inbuilt
 
Yeah they are hard indeed, but that is my last hope. All other solutions I had failed. I will use the little time I have tomorrow on my last hope :P
 
Good luck
 
Thanks!
 
8:05 PM
One problem I found is bots dying
 
If the games were 2K turns, I still could win, but my bot is not good enough for 20K turns!
 
It shortens the list of other bots
So you can't just do botNotes.storeData("teamMemberIndex", index)
 
No you can't
Finding the team and keeping track of it, both are hard tasks
 
And if the next bot in the list is moving near your bot, it could mess up the system and be nice to the wrong bot!
 
Yes
And bots could eat each other
Which makes it more complicated
 
8:08 PM
Indeed
 
I don't have a good working solution for these yet
 
Perhaps the bots don't check who is their teammate
 
I could use a signal combination of moves to detect my team bot, but it has a high error ratio
1. because of other random moves
 
and just expect the teammate to be in the right place at the right time
 
2. because of the bot getting chased and has to cancel his signal moves
I was thinking on that as well, like pre-defined rules
 
8:09 PM
You don't need to use a special signal combination. if each bot just has a copy of their teammate's code they can check for every move whether each of the other bots is behaving as their teammate should. By turn 10 you should have a lock on the correct bot.
 
But the game is very dynamic and makes even simple things very complex
 
Mike Nichols' idea is smart, but consider this situation:
 
But bot A knows exactly what bot B is thinking. It knows that it is going to run away from that bot, or run towards that coin.
 
So bot A just asks which of the ~40 bots is behaving in exactly the way bot B should.
 
8:11 PM
If your bot is completely deterministic, then it's a great thing.
 
As long as your bot doesn't have any randomness yes.
 
Bot A could tell that Bot B is a teammate, but not the other way around
Since it would end in an infinite loop
 
Why would it?
 
Because Bot A's code has a copy of Bot B's code in it.
But you don't have to go down taht rabbithole
 
Because bot A would check bot B's motions which include checking Bot A's, which includes checking bot B;s, and so on
 
8:12 PM
Have the bots only act on the fact they are teammates at the end.
 
Sure, but you won't be doing any moves based on that immediately.
 
Your logic is sound
 
So Bot A and Bot B spend 19,900 turns collecting coins.
 
But what happens when a bot dies?
 
8:13 PM
Then at the end, they just run into eachother
 
They'd have to check individually ech turn
No wait, NvM
 
Whichever had the most coins, now has nearly double that. One of your bots is sure to win.
 
Oh! My secret idea (that I was too lazy to implement) is now revealed!
 
Mike Nichols, that is a genius idea
 
Personally I think the strategy is unbeatable, which is why i didn't want to implement in ;)
Doesn't seem fair really.
 
8:14 PM
It is beatable, since one bot could die
No bot is unkillable
 
It would also cause a huge performance load, because you have to check all possible moves for each single bot to see if it was like you expect and you still need to keep tracks of bots
 
Just look at wild goose chase
 
Oh sure, you wouldn't win 100% of the time maybe.
 
It is beatable in various edge cases, yes.
 
But you would certainly win the competition i think.
 
8:15 PM
You would have to have two Potentially Victorious bots
 
In fact, you would probably take 1st and 2nd place ;)
 
No, just 1st
One would be eaten
 
But it would be a different one each time.
 
Oh, you mean average-wise
 
Well, what I had in mind was that one would be always the victim.
 
8:16 PM
Yes, over the tournament, 1st and 2nd place.
 
Actually I have an idea which wouldn't requite to have a copy of each bot in the other one
 
The only problem there Ramillies is that you have to ensure the victim has fewer coins than the victor.
 
@Night2 Yes?
 
That's true.
 
And I'm going to keep it secret for now to see if I can implement it :D
 
8:16 PM
Which is doable, but means you might have to sandbag the victor.
 
Or superpower the winner
 
I'd be a little bit afraid about this situation: your two bots divide a lot, say 60 wins among themselves, but there will be someone else who beats them both because he has, let's say 35 wins.
 
Exactly
 
I think I have a solution for that problem as well, is it fair if I keep it secret for myself?
 
(And in my original idea, I wanted just to add a sacrifice bot that would boost my flagship bot :—).)
 
8:19 PM
But if Bot A always wins, it's 60 wins for Bot A
 
Yes, that's a possibility. You are relying on the fact that there is not a single other strong bot. But also consider the average size of a win. Most victories are by a fairly slim margin. Usually the 3rd strongest bot + .85% of the 4th strongest bot are still going to be able tot ake 1st place.
 
Do as you see fit.
 
Night2, yes
You can keep it secret
 
85% not .85% obviously.
 
Of course :)
 
8:20 PM
But if you guys think that implementing a teaming like this isn't fair, I won't do that
 
Closer to 85.00001%, since there's a round up
 
@MikeNichols already mentioned he didn't do it because he thought it isn't fair
 
I had said that if you're smart enough to implement teaming, go ahead
It's very hard to do
 
Not that much. What @MikeNichols proposes is a very sound and easy way to do it.
 
But implementing and testing it to actually win would take more than the
16:30 Until Due Date
 
8:24 PM
Well, Night2 has a simple way to do it.
 
Where would you draw the line though Redwolf? If I make a bot that is capable of collecting coins and identifying copies of itself and then feeding itself to the strongest instance of itself at the end of the round can I submit that bot 10 times?
 
I'm going to sleep guys, 01:00 AM here. I need energy tomorrow to implement my last hope!
 
100 times?
 
Even simpler than what Mike proposes. // There is a rule that all of your bots must be unique.
 
No duplicate bots
Every bot must use a differing algorithm
You try finding 100 algorithms to team in 16.5 hours (:
 
8:26 PM
Haha I'm not going to, but I think this is an important discussion for potential future KotH challenges.
 
I would suggest a limit of 2 bots per user in future challenges
 
Usually there is such a limit, most often 1-3 bots per person.
 
Problem is, what if you have 3 different ideas for bots?
Or 4?
 
... then you throw away the most useless one.
 
Take the best 2?
 
8:27 PM
True
But there's not much harm in having an extra bot or two
 
It would also help in reducing non-serious bots
 
There's a lot of potential in this competition for adding bots that will influence the effectiveness of existing bots in various ways. For instance the more bots you add following any single strategy the less effective that strategy becomes. I think someone had suggested adding territorial bots to try and reduce the effectiveness of Big King Little Hill at some point which I think almost certainly would have been quite effective. This is likely to be an issue in future challenges as well.
 
I think the non-serious bots are OK in here.
 
@MikeNichols It was my suggestion last night :D
 
I don't think anyone went out of their way to "sabotage" other people's bots in this challenge, but the rules currently don't preclude this possibility.
 
8:29 PM
@MikeNichols: another rule that is quite often put up in KotHs is that you may not write a bot designed to play specifically against any other bot.
 
@Ramillies Then that would also be a good addition to the rules.
 
In my next challenge, Gold Collectors KoTH 2.0, it will be a limit of three per person and 3 per team.
 
I think this challenge will be a good experience for deciding future challenge rules.
And you shouldn't hurry in picking next challenge rules
 
And that the "you may not write a bot designed to play specifically against any other bot." is going to be added
 
I don't think so.
I mean: all of those rules have been quite standard in the past KotHs. Just read through them.
 
8:31 PM
This was more of a "first KoTH" type challenge for me. I honestly didn't expect such a massive amount of bots, positive feedback, and suggestions
 
@Ramillies As long as you don't participate/run a challenge, reading other rules won't make as much sense
 
Well, but if I'm to run a challenge, then I'll have a look at how the others have done it. (And I don't mean to badmouth Redwolf, he's done a great job. I just mean that it could be an even better job.)
 
Thanks (:
Or not thanks...I can't really tell
 
:—D
 
8 times as many SO users are younger than 18 as opposed to older than 65
 
8:34 PM
Anyways I still think that this is a good experience, for the next challenge he will have lots of rule ideas from our suggestions and experience of this challenge
 
Well, a bad thing is that your rules were really messy, and ever changing. Also you didn't have a controller made before announcing the challenge, which resulted in the infamous dozens of controllers floating all around.
But the main thing is that a lot of people had a good fun with the challenge.
 
@Ramillies I agree with this
 
This was like a giant community something or other
 
I think he has to make a sandbox post and refine his idea before posting it out
 
Which was why it was created in the first place, I guess, so it certainly must have been a good job.
 
8:35 PM
I had a sandbox post
 
Oh!
 
It never got any attention
 
Hmmmm
 
I have at least 3 sandbox posts that floated away into cyberspace
 
That's sad.
 
8:37 PM
<a href="https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/12599/we-need-to-talk-ab‌​out-the-sandbox">The sandbox is broken</a>
 
I'm new to PPCG, so I'm not quite familiar with the community, but this doesn't look good
 
But this chat room is like the sandbox times 1 million
 
I must admit that when I was posting my only one code-golf challenge, I didn't put it in the sandbox at all. I just had a look at how the well-upvoted challenges looked like and wrote something in a similar vein.
 
Yeah, I no longer use the sandbox for anything but KoTHs
 
(And it apparently worked, since it collected 35 (or maybe more) upvotes and tons of answers.)
 
8:41 PM
Although I may just "Sandbox" Gold Collectors KoTH 2.0 on here
@Ramillies What worked?
The sandbox or not using it?
 
The challenge, even though the sandbox wasn't used.
I meant that one challenge of mine.
That I used as an example before.
 
Oh, sorry
Misunderstood
 
Anyway, your challenge is a good example of a challenge that the sandbox would help with, if it actually worked.
 
<s>Test</s><i>Test</i><strong>Test</strong><b>Test</b><a href="google.com">Test</a>
Huh, HTML doesn;t work
That's why my link wouldn't, well, link!
 
No, only italic markup, bold markup, code markup and strikethrough markup work.
 
8:45 PM
Hmm
 
If you posted that link by itself in a message, then it would've created a nice box.
 
There should be a Chat Room called "KoTH Sandbox" for sandboxing posts that need attention
Is there a way to rename a room? I want this one changed to Gold Collectors KoTH(s)
room topic changed to Gold Collectors KoTH(s): For the Gold Collector KoTH, and upcoming Gold Collectors KoTH 2.0 (no tags)
There
<a href="google.com">Test</a>
 
Hm, if you look in the bottom right corner, you will see a link labeled "help". Maybe you would like to click that :—).
 
What timezones are y'all in? I want to know if I should change the due date to fit other people's schedules
I'm in Central Time
 
CEST (GMT+2), but please don't change anything, that just causes more confusion.
 
8:57 PM
OK
I was just hoping nobody had Fiji or New Zealand, since those are going to midnight for the due dates
[Test](google.com)
Yes!!!
 
9:53 PM
Aw, I'm not going to have time to finish MensaBot :(
 
Alert: 14 Hours To Due Date
Please Optimize Bots For Performance
 
10:29 PM
I've made my final planned update to Big King.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:54 PM
Notice: 12 Hours to Due Date (UTC Noon)
Any Updates After This Time Will Be Ignored
 
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