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2:00 PM
Q: The programmer honor code

VashI think that this place is the best to ask such question. Do programmer have some current code of honor or they are just always helpful for everyone despite of bad lazy approach to the topic.What happen with those guys, that use to wrote on 90% of questions RMTF ? Read More Tutorial First ;-).

@Oded, i tied to. It wold be nice if some could find it. And please stop down vote without a comment. You can always close the question if not suits your expectations.
@Oded I think he was referring to the others, but he missed the up votes on your original comment. I think he had aspirations that others would see his genius.
@Vash I think you may have meant to ask something like: "Do any codes of professional conduct apply to programmers specifically? || Are there any codes of professional conduct currently in general use by the software development community?" but I am uncertain if either of those have already been answered here, or are even a valid questions for this site.
@Oded, that part of comment was in addition to all other down voters.
@Vash Or maybe you just wanted to complain on Meta that no one gives you phat codez?
@JoshuaDrake, Why you try to be mean in the first comment ? I was just curious why currently none even try remember what RMTF was for. An if someone use it is is treated as bad person.
@JoshuaDrake, Or maybe you are to lame to comprehend the content. EOT.
2:00 PM
@Vash it was actually my second comment. Others just happen to like it. One possible reading of your question, at least to this native speaker, was that you were trying to appeal to some code of conduct to get people to "help" instead of telling you to RTFM. My initial assumption and comment was that you were trying to ask about codes of conduct in general, and the third possibility that occurred to me was that you were complaining about people not RTFM'ing. I would never have guessed from your question that people were upset with you for telling them to RTFM.
@JoshuaDrake, and that is why you have decided to investigate all my question and point out some irrational things NVM. The question was about your 3rd assumption. But not complain but try to understand what happen in last 20 years that now a kid that have no knowledge ask some basic question and all fight to have best answer on topic that it is on first page of the manual. Is this a complain.. may it be... i treat is as open discussion but i probably choose wrong place...
When an OP goes so far off topic, I take a look around.
That was a good choice.
It is often the case that they'll have other questions that are of a similar nature.
Who the all ? /
2:03 PM
I am impressed with your SO profile, it is surprising to see that after the question here, but understandable as we all have bad days, myself certainly.
When reading your last comment on the question in question, I think that you are asking why people post an answer instead of simply telling people to do their homework
In response to that I have two quick comments. First that is a discussion for Meta
most likely
IMHO the question for most of the voters was not understood properly. I dont blame then bacause my english is very poor at the moment. Sometimes is really hard to explaim the main thought in foreign words.
I think your follow up comments did a good job, and I honestly think you should repost that question on Meta.
Yes, you have right with that statement. About posting answers instead of telling them do some effort and search by your self.
You've got me thinking about it.
Why Meta ?
IMHO, meta is about the development
2:07 PM
Because it is a discussion about using the site.
not the communnity
Not only, they cover questions about how to respond to questions
Hmm in that case you have right... but this is more community issue than web site.
They cover what types of questions and responses are allowed as well.
So Meta creates the rules of the community.
Or at least discusses them there...
That true.
2:08 PM
My second quick thought once I understood where you were going with your question is that people want reputation.
Probably the do. And this is not so bad, the problem is that the are hungry and will do anything for answer.
I like to help other people with solving problems. But if the do not read books and only count for others to solve they simply issue is just unfair.
The consequences of that is when im ask for a consult for new developer i meet people that can not do anything without computer and Web.
That is a problem everywhere.
No i complain about the world, but those are the consequences
2:12 PM
Some of that happened during the .com bubble as well.
Companies hired so many people that some of them were very low quality.
Then you had a bunch of "Sr." Developers get laid off and...
I was not aware about that.
This is something new for me to have so low quality on intterview...
So we had a lot of low quality talent with great looking resumes.
But we can complain here and close the topic or write it on some community web..
I'm to low knowledge in creating english quesitons as you could sow..
Right now we've weeded out a good number, but as the questions here show there are still people landing good contracts that do not even know how to open an IDE, let alone write a list traverse.
Would you help me with that ?
2:16 PM
I will when I'm available.
So what would that be ? /
Currently at work I have more time. Approximately 8-5 Eastern Time
How can I help?
Try to wrote a question that will explain all above words...
As in: "Do we as a community have a responsibility to maintain the quality of software developers by refusing to answer simple questions on StackOverflow and related sites?" ?
Or "Do... to answer questions, on StackOverflow and relate sites, that are answerable by a quick scan of the existing documentation?"
One thing is that they may still want to move it to Meta
It is to a degree subjective
You may want to post it in the community wiki...
Also I'm looking for some questions/faq items that I believe may have already addressed the issue
Although only about answering questions that are easily findable already, not on the responsibility of us as developers
But that would prevent all the "Possible duplicate of" comments
I have spent today 30 minutes on reseach.. and go -6 a guy that claimed it sow got +8... So this is crucial to refer that it do not threat about, the answering methodology .
2:31 PM
So the easily findable answer got +8 and you got -6 for this question?
I wanted to say that people claim that have seen something buy none try to give the link to it. So if someone will start with this type of comment i will ruin all effort.
Do you mean that their answers do not provide links to sources, they simply state the body of the content?
If someone in the comment asked what is my point, the life of question would be differ. So basically it would be better to add some sentence that will navigate people to the point.
More less yes.
So you would like to start the new or edited question with your concern about the degrading quality of answers contributing to the degrading quality of developers?
A new would be better i doubt that that question could be opened.
2:37 PM
Most likely, although I would hope that you'd get some rep back after an edit attempt. ;)
That blog post has gotten some traction in the community.
I think the author expresses, at least to some extent, your concern and approach to handling questions.
The rep i nice to toll to manipulate people but i can live without it ;-).
Understood, and I am certain that you'll gain more than that back over time.
I saw a reference to that blog in some comment on SO.
I really enjoyed that article.
My apologies for my own earlier overreaction, by the way.
Apologies accepted.
No hard filling ;-).
The place to write the question is META or programmers in your opinion ?
I think still that probrammers is better choice.. abut the topic is gennerall for community. .
The question will be quoted "Do we as a community have a responsibility to maintain the quality of software developers by refusing to answer questions, on StackOverflow and relate sites, that are answerable by a quick scan of the existing documentation? " This for sure will generate more attention.
But what i still missing is a footer. That would say that person who do not comprehend the word should spend more time to understand rather than fast judge.
2:52 PM
Well that part is more difficult. You could put in an anecdote (short illustrative story) about a question that was particularly offensive, in that the person asking could have found it by simply doing a google search, and how a response of to RTFM was down voted.
The biggest problem I still see with the question in general is that the FAQ says something very close to "if you want to have a discussion about something then this is not the place to ask it"
So could i just describe my thought and ask where should i discuss it ?
But i really more interested about people thought than a discussion....
If you are going to try that I would definitely just edit your existing question.
But as is closed. No one will be able to answer to it ?
It can be reopened. After re-reading the FAQ on subjective questions I see that you should include something about looking for answers as to why the different responses as in why some people put in the link to the blog post on What have you tried and others simply put in the code. and to how we can improve the answers and possibly the reputation effect of those that reasonably say RTFM

inspire answers that explain “why” and “how”.
tend to have long, not short, answers.
have a constructive, fair, and impartial tone.
sorry I didn't mean to leave the rest of the FAQ in there
@Vash Your question "Do we as a community have a responsibility to maintain the quality of software developers by refusing to answer questions, on StackOverflow and relate sites, that are answerable by a quick scan of the existing documentation?" would definitely be better ask on either Programmers meta site, or the Stack Exchange meta site
3:03 PM
The meta sites are for discussing the main sites, and that questions sounds like it should go on a meta site. The main sites are maintained for questions related to the topics outlined in the faq of each site
@Rachel, the dillema is to pick one.
@Rachel, however, Vash's concern goes beyond the sites
@Vash I would pick the Stack Exchange meta site
Unfortunately, Programmers is a site for questions about conceptual software development only
It also addresses, at least in my mind "development methodologies" and "freelancing and business concerns"
3:05 PM
Such a question would be closed on Programmers
But programmers are people....
@JoshuaDrake It wasn't always the case.... Programmers used to be a site to get non-code answers from other programmers
so what wrong to ask about them ?
which is why the site name is Programmers
But the site scope got changed to conceptual questions on software development
3:06 PM
@Rachel and now we have workplace
Is there a officall statement that confirm what you claim @Rachel ? ?
@Vash Sadly, yes. Let me dig up a few meta posts, but you can also see that in the faq
Q: Renaming the site to match its FAQ or changing the FAQ to match the site name?

RachelI was answering another question, and realized perhaps I should post my answer in a suggestion on Meta Here's the thing: this site is called programmers.stackexchange, while the FAQ states that this site is about "conceptual questions about software development". Since a large number of people ...

Q: What is the history behind the site scope change from NPR to "conceptual questions about software development"?

RachelHow did the topic of this site to change from "Not-Programming-Related" to "conceptual questions about software development"? I've tried looking through meta questions to find where the change in site scope was discussed, but haven't found much. The biggest change in site scope I see on meta is ...

That you for that dig.
Those are quite fresh topics. Now i understand the response of programmers community...
@Vash Yes, a lot of people objected to the change (myself included), and I think it made some users harsher about how they react to questions that aren't on-topic here
As i have already wrote the question on programmers i will update it there. And thing about posting it on meta...
3:11 PM
@Rachel I've found myself having more and more fits of discouragement with the SE community in general, myself as a member included. :(
@Rachel for sure that are inpatient and not willing to understand or even explain current rules.
@Vash Many users don't see the that the site name is confusing
@JoshuaDrake You're not the only one :) Best we can do is try and make our voices heard on meta by supporting proposals we agree with, and downvoting those we don't
I strongly stareted to believe that Many users are there only to support the hiring. And the solve they bussines problem using other person wisdom.
If you do post something new though, be warned that the meta crowd is much meaner than the main site's crowd :)
That probably true sentence...
I programmes i will edit with an link... ;-).
3:13 PM
@Vash Usually on SO, I like to give answers which tell people how to accomplish what they're trying to do, without giving them the code. That's usually what most users do
It teaches the answer instead of simply gives it to them
@JoshuaDrake, this is start of my anecdote "Once up one time, i have strange funny but sad situation. When I tried to point OP out that his question is so basic, that the answer is in the manual. So instead of transferring him to page i just wrote the RTFM. This was strongly criticized. After that i wrote a question here. But as my English is poor it was totally misunderstood and i the topic was closed. But one person stayed curios. That person was Joshua Drake,
@Rachel, i try that technique too. But sometimes. Sometimes is really nice fun hearing that someone could learn something use full from you. Instead of copy paste...
@Vash Telling users to "RTFM" is considered rude, which is probably why it was so strongly critized
Everyone is new once, and sometimes users just need to be pointed in the right direction
It is rude. But for me demanding a answer for very basic question is IMHO an direct insult to all community.
@Vash Lol about the" But one person stayed curious" part, not necessary. You may want to end the "poor English" section with something like "But after discussion with other members..."
3:20 PM
@Rachel technically posting a link to is the same as RTFM. Besides who doesn't read "Fine" manuals? ;)
@Vash Just a FYI, "RTFM" typically means "read the fucking manual". Thought I'd mention that in case you didn't know since you quoted "RMTF" as "Read More Tutorial First" (which I've never heard of before today)
That supposed to amusing... but is probably not..
RMTF is my concept... from today..
@Vash I think that adding something about the chat generally is showing "What you have tried already" for your edit/reposting. :)
I know what RTFM stand for.. or was standing. But nova days we have so many tutorials and so lazy people that manual for them is to complex...
Also don't forget, you can always go to the chat to talk with other programmers about off-topic questions
3:23 PM
@Vash from here on out when you want to post RTFM just type "RMTF: Read More Tutorial First"
I think you've got a winner there.
@Rachel, i know that too. But i should work now instead of discussing things... :D but i will end up this topic and then go back to work..
I almost LOL literally when I read it.
@JoshuaDrake, that is good advice.... The RMTF is now obsolete as everything will be someday in code world ;-).
@Vash good luck, I'll be looking out for more questions from you in the future, and up voting as often as my conscious will allow.
@Rachel thank you for your input
No problem :) Cya guys later
3:25 PM
@JoshuaDrake tnhak you for your time and thoughts.
I will suspend the question for now... read more material especially article linked by Rachel and then go back to the story...
@Rachel, thank you for you support and words in this discussion.

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