Not a bar, but plays one on TV

BESW

1:08 PM

Then that's a semantics fight you're picking and I don't care.

SPavel

Or I'm making a lighthearted joke and you're crotchety for no reason, either/or

BESW

If you're actually interested in the design philosophy, here:

23

A: How do I prevent PCs from spamming their top approach in every situation?

Fred Hicks (the dude who cofounded Evil Hat) talked about exactly this in an official blog post: One-Note Approaches in FAE. It's worth a read. The bottom line is this: there is nothing that is inherently a problem about people primarily using their +3 approach. That's fine. If everyone's having...

KorvinStarmast

Can we not close questions that are asking for experience based answers? I have edited it to make that clear.

BESW

@SPavel Sorry, that sort of pedantry is something I run into semi-regularly from people who are dead serious about it, so I don't see it and think "Oh, hahah, that's obviously a joke."

KorvinStarmast

mini rant follows: a new Dm needs help, and is new to the site. As we have discussed numerous times in meta, while we who are longer time users are used to how close/hold works on this site, the signal received frequently by new users to that flag is that of a rebuff. We have an experience base of DM's and GM's who have done a great many things, and can offer decent experience based answes. Let's be a little more welcoming to this kind of request.

kviiri

1:14 PM

@KorvinStarmast Hm, I thought experience was practically a requirement for certain types of questions

Not sure whether that's actually one though

BESW

The poster was not originally asking for experience-based answers, though it's reasonable to expect answerers to stick to that because that's how the site works. And the question has not been closed yet.

KorvinStarmast

I edited that in because I am trying to be helpful to a new DM, and because I saw a close vote reaction. What I keyed in on was "new DM running X" as a clue.

BESW

It's a question that can be answered with experience. That's a significant difference. I don't think your edit was wrong, but your complaint in chat that people are closing "questions that are asking for experience based answers" is unfair.

KorvinStarmast

Engagement strikes me as a better way to respond to a new user than "close, since they don't know how to play the SE game yet." Personal opinion.

BESW

It was not asking for that.

Helwar

1:18 PM

@KorvinStarmast what is wrong with asking people with experience? Maybe not exclusively as this guy does but...

KorvinStarmast

@Helwar Actually, you are in agreement with me. ;)

Helwar

@KorvinStarmast Misunderstood you then. I'm happy to agree though! :)

KorvinStarmast

@BESW my chat comment was an attempt to prevent closure because of the reasons I cite on how new users often perceive that action.

The Masked Rebel

:P

KorvinStarmast

@BESW I wasn't saying that you were saying that; thanks for the constructive feedback/input vis a vis my complaint. As I see it, we are no better at welcoming new users than we were when I first arrived despite what I believe has been a sincere desire to improve on that. (Might just be "it's an SE thing" but that doesn't mean that I like it).

BESW

1:29 PM

@KorvinStarmast If you want to persuade people of something, don't start by accusing them of things it's literally impossible for them to have done (in this case, voting to close a question that was asking for experience-based answers; you edited the request in after the votes were cast and before your edit it was just a question that COULD be answered with experience). Blatantly false accusations don't make anybody interested in listening to you.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW I suggest that you look at the results. It is now closed. What I was worried would happen, and what I was trying to prevent, has happened. Your personal attack needs to be sent elsewhere.

"No good deed goes unpunished."

BESW

I'm only talking about the things you've said, making no attack on your character. Retroactively being right doesn't make the accusation any less wrong at the time, and thus my point that it's a bad way to persuade people to listen to you stands (and is, perhaps, reinforced by the continued votes).

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Here's the deal; a new user shows up, I (1) hide spoilers (2) try to get the answer into a form that will work here. That's a "be helpful to a new usesr." Some other users send our new user a different signal: close; no offer to help. Sorry, I think we have a systemic problem, and it is no better now that it was when I got here. Attempts at prevention were because I've seen this time and again.

BESW

I'm not arguing with any of that.

KorvinStarmast

Then lay off with the personalization, if you please. My initial appeal was based on seeing this happen, and I think it's a lousy way to treat new users. Engage first seems to me more helpful.

BESW

1:37 PM

I'm giving that constructive criticism you value, that the form of your attempt was not constructive to the goal.

KorvinStarmast

Are you referring to my initial input with the "can we please not" chat comment?

BESW

Yes. The one I quoted to avoid confusion.

KorvinStarmast

Thank you for your feedback.

BESW

I have made no attack on your character, just pointed out that your attempt to persuade people of a problem was phrased in a way to raise hackles instead.

KorvinStarmast

I don't believe it is too much to ask the experience base here to read that question and try to help, because of the "expert" thing, rather than "close as opinion based." Apparently, it is too much to ask. Data point one of many ... and yet we have an entire edit policy that is SE wide that is aimed at assisting users of all levels at raising their input to meet SE standards and norms.

BESW

1:41 PM

As always, this sort of community culture change is more effectively accomplished with Role-playing Games Meta questions.

Not chat, and not comments on other peoples' meta posts.

In this case, only two of the five voters are even in chat right now, and one's been passive for a long time.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW I don't believe that to be true. The "how we treat new users topic" is older than my participation here, by quite a bit. Whatever lip service has been paid, and whatever intentions are there, no progress that I can see based on my time here. As you've been here longer, maybe you've seen progress.

BESW

If meta is hopeless, then chat doesn't have the chance of a snowball in hell and no purpose is served by talking about it here.

SPavel

Implying that this chat isn't the shadowy cabal that runs the stack

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Sure there is; it's as useful as about any other post in chat, and far more on topic than some of the oddball stuff we all chat about.

BESW

← 42 messages moved from RPG General Chat

→ 1 message moved to RPG General Chat

Helwar

1:50 PM

I think @BESW is just arguing that meta in more "official" and permanent and easy to access and discuss, rather than a chat that keeps going. It's about the how not the what (@KorvinStarmast )

The Masked Rebel

@BESW hello

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Given that you've been participating here about two years longer than I have, do you believe that new users are better treated? I don't.

BESW

It is not equally useful to interrupt an ongoing discussion about RPGs with a concern about site culture because you've abandoned the proper channels for that kind of thing.

@TheMaskedRebel Hi! Sorry, your image post was the collateral damage of moving a side discussion out of main chat.

KorvinStarmast

@Helwar I am not convinced that posting a "treat new users better" on meta that will be closed as a dupe is of any use either.

The Masked Rebel

@BESW Ah i see. Did you delete it

BESW

1:54 PM

Then you haven't been paying attention to meta, where close-as-dupe is not a thing that usually happens to ongoing concerns about culture, because the mods recognize that culture moves and the old discussions need to be revisited.

KorvinStarmast

My goal was to try and keep that question open for a new user. The inertia of this communities attitudes has frustrated my efforts to do so. That's frustrating.

BESW

@TheMaskedRebel No, it's in this chat now. I'll move it back.

Helwar

@KorvinStarmast It's the proper channel though. And as said, is more viisble and easy to track to people that have the power to do something about it

BESW

→ 1 message moved to RPG General Chat

@Helwar And more people will see it, and it can be featured with a direct link on the mainsite homepage....

Helwar

@KorvinStarmast I get it. This kind of medium, in order to maintan quality sacrifices in ease to access. But it's the way it is

KorvinStarmast

1:55 PM

When I am less frustrated, I'll consider a meta. At the moment, no, I have no faith in that process. @Helwar Thanks for your perspective. :)

@BESW thanks for your feedback

Helwar

I follow a reddit group with pictures of pets. They have some rules, like at least a certain definition and size, and everything

every now and then someone uploads a wonky picture and gets shot down

and they say: but I wanted to post here because this reddit has the best quality!

failing to understand that the quality is achieved through cutting out what doesn't reach the minimum

SE isn't a forum, and it's difficult to understand at first. People do things wrong. Experts sometimes have a twitchy trigger finger about closing questions

BESW

@KorvinStarmast I've seen that community behavior is not linear progress, but moves through cycles. We tend to get new users in waves, and as a group of new users rises through the rep privileges they get excited about things like closing. That can be an opportunity for a culture shift--it's happened before-- and new meta posts are a very useful tool for taking advantage of that opportunity.

Helwar

nobody is perfect

BESW

Have you actually made a meta post about this, ever?

KorvinStarmast

@Helwar THe internet is a cesspool. The only reason I participate here is (1) that it beats Sturgeon's law, and (2) I got back into a hobby about 4 years ago thanks to some old friends. @BESW I'll take that into account on whether I want to put forth the effort on a meta, or not. Right now is a bad time.

BESW

1:58 PM

Have you done so since our last election?

'cause all I remember are passive-aggressive comments on other peoples' posts, and refusing to explain more fully when sincerely asked for elaboration.

Which, I suppose makes sense if you've given up on meta as a space for meaningful change, but then why are you commenting at all?

KorvinStarmast

@BESW I have participated in a variety of discussion on new users, and the received/perceived hostility to new users. It might be that I mostly have done so in comments. One of my meta posts, where I tried to be very clear, resulted in a one month suspension, and it got deleted.

BESW

Yes, unfortunately you have a history of phrasing things very aggressively and then pushing back against attempts to figure out what more moderate stance you meant to take.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW having read a variety of the responses, and the attitude "this site isn't for everyone" that comes across from various diamond mods, do I really think that anything will change? No. Maybe it is an SE-wide problem (tangentially related to one of the SE main site posts on the "tone" at some of the SE sites).

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast You have pretty much never done so in any capacity that enables others to engage. (Except by us asking what you mean, which doesn't really count as meaningful engagement.)

It's why I've been inviting you multiple times to post a meta about it.

Your engagement around the topic has been limited to meta comments saying approximately "See this is that thing I've been talking about."

(but we don't know what the thing is you've been talking about other than it's got something to do with hostility)

BESW

@KorvinStarmast Are you aware of the recent SO acknowledgement that the Stack's structure and cultural defaults should be re-examined to be more welcoming at an infrastructural, institutional level?

KorvinStarmast

2:03 PM

@BESW What you call aggressive I call "speaking clearly and bluntly." I do not respect the characterization of that as aggressive. Yes, I am very aware of that. All that it means is that I have been right all along. Thanks.

Helwar

@KorvinStarmast you are very aggressive, overly passionate if you want, on this issue

i've been here a short time but i've seen it enough :S

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener You came after me on the meta post, as did Wibbs, and that meta post got deleted and you all suspended me. Engagement: are you really open? What signal do you think that sends to me?

doppelgreener

"I'm just speaking clearly and bluntly" is a regularly favored characterisation of people who are also being aggressive or otherwise doing more than being clear and blunt.

I'm being clear and blunt right now, but not aggressive.

BESW

It's my hope that they come to understand "that's the way the Stack works" is not a defense of the way the Stack works; it's an internal defense of an external problem. Meta discussions like the one you could be prompting would be a great help in moving in that direction.

doppelgreener

(But remember, being blunt has certain ... aggressive connotations)

@KorvinStarmast Yes. We are.

KorvinStarmast

2:07 PM

@doppelgreener to you, maybe. Consider that the connotation may be based on your own filters. Me, I find direct, uncluttered communication all too rare, and far more useful than otherwise.

doppelgreener

Well, you asked me if we're open. We are.

The signal it was supposed to send you was explained in multiple comments and probably a mod message, that we expected either:
- you stop leaving the comments that were causing problems (which you have now done), or
- you leave a meta that allows the community to meaningfully engage in the topic.

We could not accept both leaving those comments and never explaining.

This was not a singular issue that lead to your suspension.

(as, again, mod messages explained)

We're open to that meta question whenever you want to post it.

The community will very likely be open to listening about it, reading it, and discussing it.

I'm committed to SO's work to become more open and inclusive and friendly, and have been doing what I can to make this stack be a friendly and welcoming place.

2

BESW

If you've genuinely given up on change, please stop interrupting other peoples' discussions to point out how much this community stinks. If you want to be part of change, there are clear paths of action before you.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener That does not change a core problem with this community that has not changed since I was first a participant; that core problem is manifested by the behavior that I saw this morning, and that has never stopped frustrating me.

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast Well, as BESW says, and as we've said: You have the option of opening a meta.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW the norms and attitudes of this community had formed over a five year period before I ever joined it. I am not sanguine at the prospects for change.

BESW

2:11 PM

Please, explain that core problem in a meta post, using this recent situation as an example.

Derpy

@BESW you are so lucky to just live in this room and not having to see the angry pitchfork mobs that thing caused (also know as "How you dare to tell us to be nice")

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast Then if you don't believe there's any prospect of change, what do you think ranting about it will do?

BESW

@Derpy Oh, I'm aware. I just pick my battles.

Derpy

@BESW I wasn't even fighting. I was just trying to avoid the noise! ^_^'

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener the same thing that any rant may do, or that spamming a chat with pictures will do. 1. make me feel better, maybe, and 2. low odds of someone going "huh, I am not the only one seeing this."

doppelgreener

2:13 PM

@KorvinStarmast Then don't do those rants.

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast There are new people joining every day though. I am very hopeful that concerted efforts can change culture. Regardless it seems worth a shot for a simple meta post right? The most you'll lose is a couple hours out of your day. And at best you could improve a long-standing frustration you hold with a place you (presumably) otherwise enjoy being a part of.

BESW

@KorvinStarmast It makes everybody else feel lousy, and if visibility is a concern, you'll get more effect on meta.

doppelgreener

If you don't think they'll have any productive properties then removing them is the right choice.

BESW

Don't use us as the pillow you scream into.

The Masked Rebel

in RPG General Chat, 1 min ago, by The Masked Rebel

if you wanna know the story behind my name see here

KorvinStarmast

2:16 PM

Later, folks, this isn't going in a better direction.

doppelgreener

Ok, forewarning.

This kind of thing is not OK.

Rubiksmoose

:(

doppelgreener

We're interested in change and improvement. Hell, we've got a feedback thread -- multiple feedback threads -- open and running on meta. One explicitly exists solely to get peoples' feedback about the community.

Anyone can open a meta post and discuss the community.

If you want to see change in the community, you can do that too. It may be received well or not, it may go through some turbulence and difficulty. It may lead to better stuff happening later.

The Masked Rebel

oh, good

doppelgreener

However, basically there's two courses:
- Seek change and, if so, do so in good faith through the proper channels that people are inviting you to use.
- ... or don't.

The Masked Rebel

2:18 PM

that is now cleared up

BESW

If I had the energy, I'd go back to my old practice of welcoming every new user with a personalized comment about improving their question, and pointing them to the various useful site tools.

doppelgreener

@BESW I do that regularly

If you're not interested in seeking change or using the options presented, then things like coming into chat and ranting about community decision-making is not going to be received well. Since you're not using the options available then that isn't being done in good faith and it is not constructive.

BESW

I did that for... gosh, maybe six months or so? a few years back and then other people started picking up the habit and there was a noticeable change in the site for quite some time.

The Masked Rebel

the moderators are gonna be really angry if this happens again

BESW

Greener is an elected moderator for RPG.SE.

Derpy

2:21 PM

@BESW have we finally discovered @BESW weakness? That he still need to sleep?

Rubiksmoose

@BESW I think I did it a few times. I'll try to do it more often. I think it is good to do/see.

doppelgreener

So, Korvin: if you want to see change in the community, but you continue to opt never to bring it up on meta... sorry, you're giving up your voice. You want input? You open a meta discussion about something. You don't get to do that by coming into chat with a rant. You don't want to open a meta? You're giving up your say then, too bad, you don't get to sway the community, and you don't have any right to be upset when things don't go differently to what you want.

If you want them to go differently, open a meta.

If you want the community to handle situations differently, open a meta.

Up to you how small or large the meta is, you can focus it on one very specific thing or cover a few things.

But if you never do that, there's nothing for us to hear and read and respond to. If you never ask for that change it's not going to happen.

So don't be surprised if it just doesn't happen.

Derpy

that is a little... disappointing. It means that my theory of BESW to be an advanced AI chat-bot style prototype SE made to improve chat room quality is wrong....

BESW

in RPG General Chat, Jan 1 '16 at 13:59, by nitsua60

I've always assumed BESW is a team of four, working in shifts. One's always typing, one's farming links, one's running games, one's sleeping.

Really, it's not about sleep, it's about spoons. I technically get more sleep than I did back then, but caring for my dad now takes a lot more of my emotional energy.

The Masked Rebel

Is it allowed to post spam here

doppelgreener

2:25 PM

spam in what sense

The Masked Rebel

just normal spam

like this

in RPG General Chat, 13 mins ago, by The Masked Rebel

if you wanna know the story behind my name see here

I mean... why.

and this

^ ?

So, spam being stupid pointless annoying messages, no, that's not ok

But that's because they'd be stupid pointless and annoying

This room's for conversation or sharing stuff

If it's not stupid pointless and annoying, it's not spam, you can probably go ahead

@TheMaskedRebel We're more likely to be disappointed than angry.

KorvinStarmast

5:21 PM

@doppelgreener Riiiiiiiiiight, doppel. That wasn't OK, but it was for B to insult me with "don't use us as the pillow you scream into" . Got it. T

I came back after time away from keyboard to offer you this.

1, 2 , 3 , 4 ... the drive to Abilene continues despite best efforts, an increase in community mod participation, and having two instead of 4 mods ... and the two new mods are both advocates of friendly to new users outlooks .. it might just be "an SE thing that can't be helped"

Nothing further unless I feel like maybe someone is interested in talking to, rather than at, this user. (Also, still feeling grumpy, which is not a good time to be posting in chat).

> that means I need to ponder more, post less.

doppelgreener

6:17 PM

@KorvinStarmast I invite you to take those to meta and explain what pattern you're seeing that they demonstrate.

KorvinStarmast

6:35 PM

@doppelgreener The pattern has been present for the whole time I have interacted here. It was further and forcefully shown to me when I first tried to help as I got enough points to participate in community moderation. Those 4 posts by their votes are an indication to me that the community prefers to stick fingers in ears and say lala, (least likely) or "sorry you see it that way, but SE has to work a certain way" (most likely) ... which tells me that I would be wasting my time.

doppelgreener

Won't happen if you don't ask for it.

(again, no idea what you think we're sticking our fingers in our ears about)

KorvinStarmast

Problem in tone and style. The post by 28291 and Conduit, as regards received tone and style.

If Conduit, a seasoned SE user was confused and uncomfortable, what do you think new users are going to feel like?

doppelgreener

I empathise with 28291 in their post here though I'm not sure what we can do more of that's missing. I'm also not sure what to add or do differently to help someone in Conduit's situation.

(again, a meta post would get people talking about what we could do differently)

mxyzplk

We added a faq post that helped conduit and they said so in comments on their answer...

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener As I noted above while still feeling rather grumpy, the recent SO/SE public declaration on "we can do better" (not just with new users, that's a sub set) only confirms my first impression from 3 years ago as being correct. (hells bells, Dopp, I am sure that in some of my comments I have been as guilty as anyone as I tried to adapt).

doppelgreener

6:45 PM

Sure, everyone's conscious there's issues with how we can be more welcoming and inclusive.

mxyzplk

Yeah, i think some of the problem is you are taking on the role of "voice crying in the wilderness" we need to get more friendly and setting yourself in opposition to mods and other community members who would like to get more friendly too.

KorvinStarmast

@mxyzplk Thanks, and that's a good thing; responsiveness. That doesn't do anything to the new user experience that has me all frustrated today. As I shared earlier while in a poor mood, I have no confidence in change in part because I see nothing new even though we have two new mods who are both high on the friendly index.

doppelgreener

We can't change something nobody's pointing out.

You put a lot of effort into bringing this kind of stuff up, albeit a small amount spread out over wide periods of time -- how about putting some more concentrated effort into writing a meta post pointing out what you're seeing and seeing what happens?

If you've got no faith anything will change and think nobody's on your side, then I don't know what you think bringing it up regularly despite explaining very little will do.

mxyzplk

Shrug. You can be confident or not confident, that's not really my concern. But I'd rather see you be constructive instead of destructive. So if you have actionable suggestions we can all take on to make the site friendlier, make them on meta, and let's see what we can do. But grousing in chat doesn't make anything friendlier for anyone, it drives away the silent watchers who are like "jeez what is all this."

doppelgreener

(In fact today you've explained more about what's going on than at all other times I've tried to find out in total.)

KorvinStarmast

6:48 PM

@doppelgreener I got 30 upvotes on the homebrew thing, but I am not sure I am seeing a change in tone and style in comments. What is maddening for me is that as comments get swept up, some of the examples I see are (to a certain extent, this is a good thing) swept away

@doppelgreener Well good, at least this wasn't all a negative thing. Let me ponder on this. @mxyzplk Thanks for the encouragement, I need to ponder before I try a meta. The "what is wrong" disaster is not something I want to relive.

I made a mess of that.

doppelgreener

I don't know about what you've seen, but there's been several occasions in which I've kept a homebrew-oriented question open, removed comments against it, and a couple in which I explicitly asked people to just treat the homebrew request like they would if they were dealing with regular rules -- and I did those because of that meta post you made changing the perspective I brought to moderation.

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener If you're seeing some good in that, good. You probably see a lot more of the comments than I do since you get all of the flag views.

doppelgreener

Probably yeah

Most mornings I wake up to 3-4 comment threads being flagged for being nuked

KorvinStarmast

Alright, thanks to you both, pondering ...

mxyzplk

Just be specific. "What is wrong" went off the rails because it strongly encouraged people to make vague claims and just argue. Link specific things you think were discouraging - not generalities like "you know, comments! and closes!" - and what we can do about them (remembering that there are thousands of site users we don't control, so differing opinions will always happen on given questions regardless of meta)

doppelgreener

6:52 PM

If there aren't specific things you can link to (e.g. they're comments that were removed, or ages-ago posts you can't find) you can also discuss a pattern you've observed.

When making assertions about a pattern it helps to stick to "here's what I've seen happen sometimes" rather than "this is how things are" (or implying it happens all the time everywhere... unless it really does happen all the time everywhere, which it probably doesn't. you can say it happens most of the time you've seen, that's workable.)

KorvinStarmast

"here's what I've seen happen sometimes" thanks for the style tip, and the hard thing on this is how often what would get me cranky, at least early on, was as much comments as anything else, and of course comments in time drift away ... per the model. More pondering, and later.

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast Cool. Describe the pattern then, if you happen to see comments in the meantime you can take a screenshot or a copy.

mxyzplk

yeah or just link to the thing, we can always get the comments back

doppelgreener

Oh yeah. If you keep a link to the comment we can dig the comment back up later if it was deleted in the meantime.

@KorvinStarmast & on the drive to Abilene analogy: I imagine the family on the drive would've benefited an awful lot from someone speaking up saying "do we actually all want to go to Abilene, or are we just going there because we think everyone else wants to go there? Because we could go visit a California beach instead."

So like... if you think we're going somewhere nobody wants to go, and you can spot what's happening and speak up, that'd be something nobody else can do or is doing.

Otherwise... we'll just continue on the drive. Vroom vroom. Sunny Abilene ahoy.

KorvinStarmast

9:14 PM

@mxyzplk I am not going to ask you to resurrect dozens, more likely hundreds, of comments over a three year pattern. I don't think that's good use of your finite mod time.

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast nobody would want to read them even if we did. pick five or whatever.

that offer is in the scope of providing you with examples of patterns you'd be trying to describe in the meta.

you don't need more than a dozen to do that.

heck, usually five strong examples of one specific thing is more than enough for people to start going "ooooh... i see what you're getting at"

KorvinStarmast

@doppelgreener What is making me reluctant to put in further effort (at the moment) is two things. (1) The time and effort I put into data collection for a RAW discussion on meta that was met with a twin stiff arm. (2) This may be a systemic thing: it may be that the only people who stick around are those who don't see this as a problem. That whole "self selecting" thing that can screw up a poll.

> so, still pondering. Ain't gonna happen today.

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast start at a moderate level of effort then

14

Q: Are our implicit-information tagging practices becoming a problem?

We have some tags that seem to regularly get used such that they imply information about the post, which isn’t actually stated in the post itself. our various system tags, including [system-agnostic]. The asker will very often just tag with their system, and not mention it in tags or title. [ru...

i wrote this in like an hour, but i was planning on writing it over a month in advance and just took screenshots of things as i came across them

KorvinStarmast

I need to do a lot more thinking and a lot less typing before I try to give some shape to this thing. As I noted to mxy, I have no desire for the shape of a disaster that cropped up the last time I tried to help.

doppelgreener

that implicit-information thing didn't do much, but it opened up some conversational space, and i remember when we arrived at the "back to tagging basics" solution for the RAW tag, BESW brought that meta post right back up

we've also probably invalidated the concept of non-system-agnostic [system-agnostic] questions raised in point 2

Transcript for

Not a bar, but plays one on TV