« first day (2828 days earlier)      last day (2489 days later) » 

03:00
Basically, it's to find the centroid of a quadrilateral given lattice point vertices
Now, I've tried many methods
My first instinct is to average the vertices. My second instinct is to go, "Wait, didn't I already establish that that gives the wrong answer a few months ago?"
I've thought about breaking down the quad into triangles, relating the altitudes with the means, etc.
You get break it into triangles and negative triangles
I mean, like
Average the vertices? Well, the point of a centroid is to break into equal areas
Say triangle ABC has positive area if A, B, and C are listed in counterclockwise order, and negative area if they're listed in clockwise order
and say O is the origin of your coordinate plane
03:02
ok sure
then you should be able to write the quadrilateral ABCD as OAB+OBC+OCD+ODA
If O is inside ABCD, then those are all positive triangles and it makes sense
okay wow I'm confused
If O is not inside ABCD, then I think the positives and negatives cancel out in the right way to give you just the quadrilateral
So your saying we've got the quadrilateral with the origin in the interior
So, we connect each vertex with the origin, producing 4 triangles
And then we use the triangles to somehow get the centroid of the original thing
03:04
Well, it doesn't matter if the origin is inside, because we can just create an "artificial origin" that's inside the shape, so I don't think that's any problem
I didn't work out this step yet
The real problem is to find that centroid
Now, this is what I'm thinking:
I think it would be:
We know that the centroid breaks up into equal areas. We also know that the medians are broken into a ratio of 2:3. Thus, we can use this to create some form of a system of equations with 1/2*b*h.
Area(OAB)*Centroid(OAB) + Area(OBC)*Centroid(OBC) + etc
all divided by the total area
(I was gonna LaTeX that but decided, screw it)
03:06
Whoa, I don't understand what you mean by centroid(OAB)
It's just a point, not a value
You can take the weighted average of points
Do it to each coordinate individually
By number*point I mean multiply each coordinate of the point by the number
In other words, treat them as a vector
Hm, that's strange that it would work
So basically, the weight of each area is the location of the centroid?
The weighted average of each area
Pretty sure it would be, yeah
ok thanks, let me read up
Wow
03:10
Yeah
And the crazy thing is that it's basically weight averages visualized
Oh I think I see why that is
We just need to show that the centroid is somewhere on the line segment between those two orange points in the first picture
(the triangle centroids)
do you have a visual presentation of your problem @DarkRunner
@JoeShmo He wants to find the centroid of a quadrilateral
given the coordinates, I think
Problem: Find the centroid of a quad literal with vertices at lateral coordinates
03:12
Yeah, same thing
coordinates of the centroid, that is?
Yes
@AkivaWeinberger But why would the centroid of the quad be collinear with the centroid of the triangles?
(since otherwise i will pretentiously point out that it's the point where all the angle bisectors intersect)
Nevermind
You can sort of "condense" a part of a shape to a point mass without changing the centroid
I dunno what's the best way to describe this
Like, let's say you have a shape that's broken into two disjoint pieces, A and B
03:14
ok
Say you replace A with A', where A' has the same area and centroid of A
Then the shape made of A' and B should have the same centroid as the shape made of A and B
Here, they're taking A' to be a point mass located at the centroid of A (where A and B are the triangles)
oh right gone nevermind @DarkRunner? hmm
@AkivaWeinberger ok trying to follow
I shouldn't have said "area"
I should have said "mass"
Like, imagine these are physical objects
and they can have different densities
The original shape had a constant density
sure
So we basically have an object broken into triangles of different densities
However, the original, unbroken shape is of constant density
03:17
By a "point mass" I mean a tiny object with the same mass as A
so it would be really dense
So the two triangles, A and B, start out with the same density as each other
but then I kinda squish A to a point
so then A would coincide with A'
Same with B
Mhm
So I end up with two point masses
and then the centroid of the two point masses would end up somewhere on the line between them
and where exactly it is on that line depends on the relative masses of the two point masses
But now we can break the quadrilateral into two triangles a different way (see second image)
and repeat the same exact argument
it's like a seesaw, the centroid of the quad must balance somewhere between the centroids of the triangles
03:19
so we know it's on the line segment between those two points, also
And then in the last picture, they're drawing both line segments and intersecting them
@DarkRunner Yeah
so basically, the reason why the centroid of the quad HAS to be collinear with the centroid of the triangles is...?
sorry, I just want to clarify
'Cause we can replace each triangle with a point mass without changing the location of the centroid, and then the centroid of two point masses lies on the line segment between the two points
oh ok wow
Thanks a lot!
I understand
You're welcome
@BalarkaSen Hey, if $v$ and $w$ are vectors, is $v\wedge w$ the area of the triangle formed by the origin, $v$, and $w$?
Times $e_1\wedge e_2$
I'm trying to think of the above discussion in vector-theoretic terms
So then the area of a triangle with vertices $a$, $b$, and $c$ should be $a\wedge b+b\wedge c+c\wedge d$ probably
and then the centroid of quadrilateral $a_0a_1a_2a_3$ should be
$(\sum_i\frac12(a_i+a_{i+1})a_i\wedge a_{i+1})/(\sum_ia_i\wedge a_{i+1})$
That looks annoying
$(\sum_i \frac12a_i(a_{i-1}\wedge a_i+a_i\wedge a_{i+1}))/(\sum_i a_i\wedge a_{i+1})$ also
Wait, no
How am I multiplying a vector with an element of $\bigwedge^2\Bbb R^2$?
Unless I'm wedge multiplying it...?
Nah
Maybe?
Nah, $\bigwedge^3\Bbb R^2=0$
Can I simplify $\Bbb R\oplus\bigwedge^2\Bbb R^2$?
@Daminark
Oh, but then I'm dividing out by the wedges again
It's really $\sum a_i\left(\dfrac{\text{something in $\bigwedge^2\Bbb R^2$}}{\text{something in $\bigwedge^2\Bbb R^2$}}\right)$
03:40
what the hell is going on here
Presumably, this would make no sense if I replaced $\Bbb R^2$ with any other vector space
@0celo7 DarkRunner was trying to find the centroid of a quadrilateral. I thought, can we put that in vector-theoretic terms?
Oh and the fractions in that weird thing should sum to 1
Today, literally 2 years after I learn the determinant, I've finally been convinced that it has to do with volume
I was always told this and never got an explanation I liked
It transform like a volume do
you should have seen that in GMT
to prove the area formula
Well, we didn't prove the area formula
03:47
There's a way to derive $ad-bc$ in 2D
This isn't a systematic course in GMT
you have to be convinced of that fact along the way
We're just presenting a bunch of random results, and so far area formula hasn't come up
@Daminark then in some calculus class where you did change of variables
Wait, $ad-bc$ is anno domini vs before Christ
03:47
Calculus class, lol
I haven't had one of those
Is that the secret behind the determinant
We did change of variables in analysis I guess
that's the area formula
area formula = change of variables + Federer
Well, in analysis we didn't quite have Federer
just throw out all the fucking regularity and hypotheses and you get the area formula
03:49
But in any event, it was incomprehensible, the determinant just happened out of nowhere, and at the time we were black boxing Lebesgue differentiation even though we never knew the Lebesgue integral
@Daminark well the point is you have to know that a linear map stretches a cube by a factor of the determinant to prove the area formula
But now I have an explanation which satisfies me
for both Riemann and Lebesgue integral
Ew, it has a transparent background
03:49
area formula/change of variables
same thing
@Daminark What is it?
Basically, the determinant is the unique alternating, multilinear function on matrices sending the identity to 1
So now take the function which eats a bunch of vectors and spits out their signed volume
yes
Mhm
3 mins ago, by Akiva Weinberger
It transform like a volume do
Yeah that's the usual story
03:50
i.e. shears don't change determinant or volume
and they're both multlinear
and stuffs
If you scale a single vector, you see that the area scales, and then to add just do it to each separately. Then it's alternating because if you duplicate a vector, stuff lives in a lower dimensional space. And it sends the identity to 1 because unit cube
@Daminark Yeah so one way to think about the determinant is,
They're creating an execution room in the hbar @0celo7
say you have $u$, $w$, and $w$
Then $u\wedge v\wedge w$ lives in $\bigwedge^3\Bbb R^3$
I have no idea if you know what that means
@skull what got deleted?
03:52
Yeah I know the exterior product
Everything :(
about?
Right, so you know how $\bigwedge^3\Bbb R^3$ is isomorphic to $\Bbb R$?
Yeah
user suspensions
03:53
Send $u\wedge v\wedge w$ through that isomorphism
Bam, determinant
(It's $\det[u,v,w]$)
(matrix with those column vectors)
Yeah, I've seen this as a proof of uniqueness
And then of course $3 = n$
@skull dude tell me the details
Right yeah
It had NOTHING to do with you, pal @0celo7
Also this finally convinces me of the geometric stuff of the cross product
03:55
Oh, yeah, cross product is
A friend of mine actually gave a nice explanation of it to me the other day
$u\wedge v$ lives in $\bigwedge^2\Bbb R^3$
which is isomorphic to $\Bbb R^3$ ('cause $\binom32=3$)
so send it through the isomorphism and bang
@skull what the hell happened
Given two vectors, $a$ and $b$, you have that the map $f_{a,b}(v) = \det(v,a,b)$. This is a linear functional on $\mathbb{R}^3$, so by Riesz you can find some vector $a\times b$ such that $f_{a,b}(v) = \langle v, a\times b\rangle$
By similar logic, you should have a cross "product" that eats three vectors in 4D space and spits out a fourth perpendicular to the first three
$\times(u,v,w)$ I guess
'cause $\bigwedge^3\Bbb R^4$ is isomorphic to $\Bbb R^4$
Or by your logic also
$f_{u,v,w}(x)=\det(x,u,v,w)$ is a linear thingy
so define $\times(u,v,w)$ to be the thingy
and now you have a trilinear operator in 4-space that's kinda like the cross product
03:59
And then the properties of the cross product are clear as day. $a\times a = 0$, it gives a vector that's orthogonal to $a$ and $b$ since you just let $v = a$ and $v = b$, its norm is by the area of determinant business, etc
@0celo7 this user named Peter came in asking about suspended users and BAM they created a new private room and deleted everything >8(
Hmm
OK, as long as it's not me or one of the friends
Mafia style
@Daminark And you know that method of calculating the cross product, where it's like
Yeah, that's just by letting $v = e_i$
04:00
$\det\begin{bmatrix}\hat\imath&u_1&v_1\\ \hat\jmath&u_2&v_2\\ \hat k&u_2&v_2\end{bmatrix}$
They know I know about it @0celo7
That sort of computational "mnemonic"
@skull no witnesses
goodbye buddy
2
Well, if you dot it with $x$, what you're essentially doing is
So, I'm finished
:(
04:01
replacing $\hat\imath$ with the first coordinate of $x$, replacing $\hat\jmath$ with the second coordinate of $x$, etc
(just 'cause of how the dot product works)
which is the same as shoving $x$ into the left column of that matrix
Which is what it would do if it were the matrix
So that's why that computational "mnemonic" works
@Daminark Ed Sheeran parody
Determinant knows the shape of $U$ / It transform like a volume do
The rest of the lyrics I leave to @Balarka
@0celo7 see how quite they became when I talked about hockey?
you're gonna get deleted
sorry
np
I have flags and I'm not afraid to use them
#vexillology
04:16
@skull you think Ron Maimon's ban was long?
HA
You're gonna get so long the system will glitch
it's gonna be like when they killed Luca Brasi
I would link but I would get banned
@0celo7, I just learned that $f:\Bbb C\to\Bbb C $defined by $f(z)=|z|^2$ is differentiable at $z=0$ only, but if $z=x+iy$ then Frechet derivative of $f(z)=x^2+y^2$ exist at all points in $\Bbb C$. I was wondering from which directions does difference quotient approach in this Frechet derivative.
Doesn't the Fréchet derivative just mean that the function $\Bbb R^2\to\Bbb R^2$ defined by $\begin{bmatrix}x\\y\end{bmatrix}\mapsto \begin{bmatrix}x^2+y^2\\0\end{bmatrix}$ is differentiable as a function on a real vector space?
Unless I misunderstand what a Fréchet derivative is (very possible)
04:32
This is the guy they executed in front of my eyes. @0celo7
@Silent the complex derivative is not the same as the Frechet derivative
I don't understand the question
@skull he seems very much alive
It just requires each coordinate to be differentiable in the real sense
hmm
But how they handle it, is my concern @0celo7
It's the difference between locally looking like an affine map, and locally looking like a dilation+rotation
(Real differentiable versus complex differentiable)
@0celo7 i know that, but the solution that says $f(z)$ complex differentiable computes difference quotient for both real axis and imaginary axis, and then derives that the limit of difference quotient can be equal for real axis difference quotient and imaginary axis difference quotient at 0 only. Hence i was wondering what direction frechet derivative ttakes limits.
@AkivaWeinberger what is dilation?
04:39
Stretching
Multiplication by a real scalar
Like pupils.
@Silent All of them… and then organizes the result into a matrix
The Fréchet derivative is a matrix, not a number
(2x2 in this case)
(Real entries, 'cause it kinda ignores the complex structure)
If the Fréchet derivative is a scalar times a rotation matrix, then the thingy is complex differentiable
If the Fréchet derivative is $rR_\theta$, the complex derivative is $re^{i\theta}$, essentially
@Silent Multiplication by a complex number $re^{i\theta}$ dilates the plane by a factor of $r$ and rotates it by $\theta$.
At least one author calls this transformation an "amplitwist".
(I like it)
05:00
@AkivaWeinberger thank u very much
 
2 hours later…
07:11
Hi
I want to find a norm on $\Bbb R^2$ in which the unit circle has a hexagonal shape with the edge at $(1,0)$. I found this question math.stackexchange.com/questions/1594480/hexagon-boundary but why does it say max instead of min?
I would have thought it should look like
$$\lVert \mathrm{x} \rVert = \min\lbrace |y|, \frac{1}{2} \left( |y| + \sqrt{3}|x| \right) \rbrace$$
@philmcole You can't take a norm like that
it would have non-zero vectors with norm 0
ok how do you see that?
|y| can be 0 even if (x,y) isn't
anything with y-component 0 would get norm 0, but only the zero vector is allowed to have norm 0
oh right
and if it was max like in the answer I linked it is a norm?
Also how did he come up with this formula? Is there a clever way one can come up with norms that look like a certain (simple) trigonometric shape?
07:37
@philmcole a line is of the form ${\bf n}\cdot (x,y)=h$, where $\bf n$ is a unit normal vector and $h$ is the distance from the line to the origin. the line segment at the top of the hexagon would use ${\bf n}=(0,1)$, so the dot product would just be $y$, and the line segment one sector clockwise would have angle $\pi/6$, so correspond to ${\bf n}=(\frac{\sqrt{3}}{2},\frac{1}{2})$. and so on the the rest.
think about the dot product ${\bf n}\cdot(x,y)$ in those cases. pairing antipodal ones together, we get absolute values, and then thinking algebraically we get the $\sqrt{3}|x|+|y|$ one.
@anon thanks! I haven't seen this expression of a line before so I don't fully grasp it yet. But I'll try it with the example.
Can anyone help me in this regard : The equation of directrix of an ellipse is $x+y-1=0$ and the focus near to it is $(-1,1)$ . The eccentricity is $\frac{1}{2}$ . How can I find the vertex of ellipse ?
@philmcole let $\bf p$ be the point on the line closest to the origin, at a distance of $h$. the unit normal vector $\bf n$ points straight to the point $\bf p$ then. so ${\bf n}\cdot{\bf p}=h$. if $\bf x$ is any other point on the line, then the displacement ${\bf x}-{\bf p}$ is perpendicular to $\bf n$, so ${\bf n}\cdot({\bf x}-{\bf p})=0$, which rearranges to ${\bf n}\cdot{\bf x}=h$
I can equate $\frac{a}{e} - ae$ to the perpendicular distance from focus to directrix and find $a$ . What should I do next ?
Anyone ?
07:59
@anon Thank you! I got it. I wonder why we've never learned this in class. We only learned the explicit representation as $\mathbf{x} = \mathbf{s} + t \mathbf{r}$ with $\mathbf{s}$ being the support vector and $\mathbf{r}$ the direction vector. Though for planes we learned the explicit and implicit representation...
 
2 hours later…
09:41
Hi, how can I use the Banach fixed point theorem to show that a certain recursive sequence converges? Suppose I have a sequence $(x_n)_n$ which is defined recursively by $x_{n+1}=T(x_n)$ and I know that $T$ is a contraction. By the BFP theorem I know there exists a fixed point $x_0$ s.t. $x_0 = T(x_0)$. How can I use that to show that the sequence converges?
10:23
I figured it out. Was basically the proof of the Banach fixed point theorem
11:01
Only abelian simple groups are $\Bbb Z/2\Bbb Z$ and $\Bbb Z/3\Bbb Z$, am I right? @LeakyNun
@Silent you earlier asked if all groups of order p are simple
oh, yes! so sorry.
11:34
@NehalSamee Look at the perpendicular segment from $(-1, 1)$ to $x + y = 1$, and you want to divide it into a $2:1$ proportion.
11:54
@BalarkaSen bwahahaa Ye said slavery was a choice. Dat album hype cycle
link please
Google
It’s everywhere
key word?
12:13
@0celo7 Wut
No way
WHAT THE F
these guys say dumb stuff just for the publicity
Regardless of however one interprets this tweet, I think he needs a good dose of jab for making sloppy commentary on a complex socio-political historical era just for publicity.
I am unable to develop a firm grip on topics like Probability, Binomial Theorem. Any book you suggest?
Hello
12:43
@BalarkaSen Thanks . I got it later on ... Thanks again ...
@NehalSamee Nice! No problem
@BalarkaSen sounds like we've got a nerd here
nerd?
nerdyness is a choice
13:00
No u
me?
:0)
This conversation is quickly becoming too hard to parse for a man of average IQ levels like me
you, average?
nor a "man," yet :P
13:08
thyself, in the median?
Ok I'm going to get some work done
Cya
cya, pal
13:30
How to show that for $f:[0,1]\to \Bbb R$, there exists $c\in(0,1)$ such that $\int_0^1xf(x)dx=\int_c^1f(x)dx$?
If $U,A,B$ are subgroups of a Lie group $G$ such that $U$ is dense and $AuB$ is dense for all $u \in U$. Can I choose for all $g \in G$ sequences $(a_n),(b_n),(u_n)$ with $a_nu_nb_n \to g$ and $u_n \to e$?
I tried, starting with $u_n$, but I can't get the sequences $a_n$ and $b_n$.
@BalarkaSen Ye is a stable genuis
13:46
@0celo7 Ye are a mathematician.
13:56
@0celo7 mind if I ask for your quick opinion on a question?
1
Q: Alternative definition for characteristic foliation of a surface

anakhronizeinGiven a surface $S$ in a contact $(2n+1)$-manifold $(M,\xi)$ one can define the characteristic foliation of $S$ via looking at where the tangent bundle to $S$ coincides with $\xi$ (the singular part of the foliation), and otherwise where it intersects. It turns out that locally, if $\theta$ is a...

This was a question I asked some time ago and I feel like it should be answered easily with just general knowledge of differential geometry but I don't know.
It's in the context of contact geometry, but it doesn't seem to be appealing to anything in contact geometry.

« first day (2828 days earlier)      last day (2489 days later) »