The finite temperature observables are calculated in two ways; once from the Page-Hawking computation of the free energy, and secondly using the Beckenstein-Hawking equality of the entropy with the area of the horizon.

Access to the phase diagram of QCD can only be obtained with non-perturbative methods, ranging from lattice computations, renormalisation group methods to string-inspired methods such as AdS/QCD correspondence.

@rob Lol

Doesn't seem like your warning worked

whats the question?

@vzn Don't do it

@BernardoMeurer have you talked to n before?

Who's n?

@BernardoMeurer nitsua60

Nope

And him being a moderator at the RPG SE I already distrust him

All the mods there seem to be super aggro and nuclear

@vzn Why would your first action back in the room be a snarky comment along the lines that got you kicked in the first place?

@nitsua60 which comment? alas its kind of hard to ban snark in cyberspace.

(It's a sincere question. I'm confused as to what the intent of the line would be.)

@nitsua60 He can't control it

@nitsua60 what line?

@vzn You linking to Feynman

@vzn The first one back, a few minutes ago.

@nitsua60 This one?

@BernardoMeurer its a link on gender issues/ "sexism" wrt physics wrt a nobel prize winner.

@vzn (I don't believe I said anything about banning snark. Did I miss something?)

@vzn This is literally you sometimes

@nitsua60 ok, if this "conversation" is about that mods never make mistakes then maybe we should end it.

It's really hard to understand

@BernardoMeurer I think it would be better if you not participate in this conversation

@vzn It's not. Really.

@DavidZ Jee, okay

@nitsua60 so shall we deconstruct the meaning/ intent of the comment together?

@vzn I think I'm more curious about the mindset. I assume you think the kick was unwarranted. Is that right? ("Hair trigger" makes me think that.)

@vzn (I don't know if you noticed, but an hour or so ago I made a mistake in the room and apologized for it immediately. I certainly believe mods are fallible.)

@nitsua60 think ACM tends to kick without warning etc, sometimes not even involved in the conversation. acknowledge that some of my writing is edgy.

@nitsua60 sorry missed the apology only saw a (now) @#%& 8 STARRED item that publicly tarred me :( ... what "apology"?

@vzn And everyone else, but yes, it was specifically replying to you.

@nitsua60 look let me show you something (else!) that was not flagged by me or others earlier

@vzn But what I'm struggling to understand: why come right back at them like that? If you disagree with the action--which is your right and may or may not in any case be reasonable--that just doesn't seem like a good way to handle that feeling.

what apology are you talking about? come back at who? there are many people involved its been a very busy chat room today. (is this like chat/ cyber therapy to get me in touch with my feelings & appropriate ways of handling them?)

@vzn I'm talking about you coming back from being kicked by directing a message on the same topic that got you kicked to the person who did the kicking.

@nitsua60 its a 3rd rail topic and admit ACM has some justification ok? did you notice did not call ACM names? say it was unjustified etc? but mod actions are subjective & think ACM is particularly hair trigger/ "black vs white" among various mods etc. ... can you tell me what "apology" youre talking about? honestly have almost never seen such a thing among mods.

@vzn I don't remember who it was. But if you search "sorry" by "nitsua60" in the hbar I bet you'll find it.

It was Balarka

Who made a brilliant topology joke

@vzn As for the topic I'll certainly stipulate it's one where (a) it's really hard to tell tone in text, (b) tone is really important, and (c) people have widely-different lines where they draw acceptable/unacceptable lines. I.e. I'm not passing judgment on your original line nor on the kick.

this line?

Yeah, I guess.

@nitsua60 look kicks happen life goes on am not happy about you publicly excoriating me for what you seem to imply was a false flag by "whoever". think there was some out of line behavior going on but afair, maybe never flag stuff myself. my "lol" was that was thinking "oh yeah this was out of line and we were getting near a flag from somebody". in 2020 hindsight not a great word to use there.

@vzn Are you saying you didn't raise any of those flags and that I misread your line as implicit admission? If so, I'd like to know so that I can apologize and I'll go back and edit your handle out of the pinned message.

@nitsua60 did not raise the flags myself but if youre relying on me for that info then seems that theres something off about SE modding/ mechanism going on. honestly was surprised to realize you guys dont know where flags come from and now realize holy @#%& that explains a lot! :|

@nitsua60 the pinned msg is evidence, besides that people agree with you about dont raise false flags, that (maybe) there is also lot of public interest in chastising me, so am highly annoyed about the msg, but am not asking you to take it down.

@vzn I'm sorry, then. I wish you'd said something sooner so I could fix that mistake. (That's why I put in the message the "why" of calling you out specifically--so that the "trail of evidence" was there, so to say.)

@nitsua60 ok, you seem like a rare SE mod who is willing to consider a mod action, and am very thankful for that, and agree that mods should not have to waste their time on trivialities, and think youve already spent way more than this (particular) episode deserves.

@vzn That's fine--I edited it.

@nitsua60 noticed that my id did not appear in the starred msg. anyway life goes on its not the 1st time feel there have been personally embarrassing starred msgs in the room. and am willing to seriously take that into acct. have been active to varying degrees a few yrs in hbar, theres significant history/ emotions flying around. etc... appreciate all mods volunteer efforts in keeping everything running smoothly and enforcing "be nice™"

It's so strange for me to hear "kicks happen," honestly. I can't remember the last time someone was kicked in an RPGSE room. Doubly curious, then, to hear myself assumed to be "super aggro and nuclear."

@nitsua60 BM seems to not know you personally & is going off rumors. hbar is full of spirited debate on very diverse topics, honestly it mostly is related to a high audience that seems to have been built up mainly by DZ a long time ago over years. apparently it takes years for an SE chat room to reach "critical mass" and also be careful what you wish for™ o_O

@vzn "DZ"?

Me

Ah.

"high audience" = "elite" or "drug-addled"?

lol :P

@nitsua60 lol high = "sizeable"

@DavidZ (seriously. PhD work was at Boulder.)

@vzn Okay.

Yeah I understand but I still think it was funny :)

@nitsua60 *!?! huh?

@vzn The University of Colorado at Boulder is widely-known around the US as being very drug-saturated, esp. marijuana. Even before any legalizations were happening.

Also sits at 5500 ft. elevation.

So it was both an honest question ("are you saying this is a chat-room for stoners and that's what's going on?") and a lame joke.

But the original question stands: when kicked, why come directly back at the kicker on the same topic? What can that possibly achieve? I could see asking them why they did that, I could see pinging your local mod there or here for "intervention," I could see a meta post complaining/asking for clarification/suggesting chat guidelines. But needlessly poking--which is what it looked like to me--seems like it'll just contribute to this toxic "normies vs. blues" thing that flares up sometimes.

I don't know if there's an answer.

I'm just trying to wrap my head about when chat "culture" is functional vs. abrasive.

@nitsua60 ahem you have some pt & should take it into acct...

@vzn Particularly in that case. Like I said above, that's probably a topic where it'd be really useful to have some calm, level-headed conversations about "what are we comfortable with? What POVs should be taken into account?"

@nitsua60 it was an abrasive day :P

@vzn Sorry to hear it.

@nitsua60 in chat.

I'll stop bugging you then =)

@vzn Right.

@nitsua60 everyones on edge eg JD is a user who has a "complex history" & we are chatting at length in the room on touchy topic, "new physics," he wont chat anywhere else. everyone is triggered incl mods. other factors. etc.

I would just suggest it'd be good for the whole room to keep in mind: as much history as may be going on in any conversation, every day is probably also someone's first day in the room. What do they learn about what's expected/acceptable/wanted? Because that's what'll propogate.

@nitsua60 think you have some excellent chat philosophy & think its great you can spend some time/ ideas on it. have thought about it quite a bit myself over the yrs. SE chat is unique in many ways. some of the buzzy energy of the room is due to long regulars and old conflicts etc

@vzn How so, on SE chat-uniqueness? (I don't disagree, just curious what others see.)

(whoever's starring that ^^, maybe it should be moved to the hbar?)

@nitsua60 its a generally well designed/ good interface chat system with talented audience and there are few others like it. lots more thoughts on subj here vzn1.wordpress.com/chat

[reading]

he this

lol think maybe context was BM was warning me not to talk to a mod. and yeah agree its defn nervewracking o_O

@BernardoMeurer Some day I hope you'll tell me more about this. Tonight's not the night for me, though. Feel free to ping me some time.

@vzn Well I hope not next time =)

@nitsua60 I like it better in here (not least because it'll stay on the star board a lot longer) but we can echo the sentiment in hbar when appropriate.

Wow. "Warning me not to talk to a mod." It's not mind-blowing to me that someone would say that, but that it's presumably (since nobody pushed back) seen as a reasonable sentiment.

@rob Fair. I assume someone's writing a bot now to auto-quote that in the hbar at 00:01 UTC every day?

=D

@nitsua60 the mods routinely show up in the room based on flags, and bad stuff happens, seems/ feel they dont always find the guilty party so to speak (not unlike this latest case), think others feel like sometimes, my habit has been to run when flags show up from memory of bad cases that have happened. another mod AoC showed up a few wks ago, blasted/ trashed many dozens of lines incl by other mods. etc

@vzn That seems like an odd interpretation

@DavidZ let me put it this way, have seen this over and over, its always "shoot 1st ask questions later" without the "ask questions later" part. this seems rare case to me where mods are willing to talk it over some.

@vzn But well before the "hootie-hoo" I assume there's conversation that's getting... questionable? And either there are people in the room who are unhappy with it and aren't using the tools at their disposal to rein it in (their words, then pinging an RO or mod, then flags) or there aren't people in the room who are unhappy with it. Either way, it's a sign that the room isn't working.

@nitsua60 not sure what you mean. the room is working too well if you ask me. its very lively sometimes. you can have boring rooms with low activity and no flags or high activity/ interest/ engagement and yeah, someitmes passions run high.

@vzn To my thinking: rooms need to be able to exist with little mod-intervention if they are to exist at all. That means chatizens themselves have to curate healthy rooms, principally.

@vzn There seems to me a false dichotomy there. I principally spend my days in a room that is high activity and I can't recall in three years seeing a flag in it.

@nitsua60 think you have excellent point but the basic situation is that rooms vary very widely in activity. activity is likely the top predictor of flags. think theres some rough typical percent of flags per msgs in most rooms likely.

@vzn The key is that in healthy, respectful discourse civility makes it possible to discuss difficult topics.

@nitsua60 isnt there simple records on # of flags in rooms for mods? have seen a lot of flags in Physics over the months/ years.

@nitsua60 the hbar crowd sometimes enjoys/ savors edgy topics and tends to push the limits. other mods may have some opinion on that.

If we've got a room where people Assume Good Faith of each other and listen and ask questions when they're not sure they understand something and think twice when they type... you can talk about rape and racism and abortion and all sorts of other "hot-button" topics sanely. But in a room like what I was watching in the hbar today it's hard to even talk about the weather without things going off the rails.

@nitsua60 agreed there was a lot of going off the rails today both with/ without my "help" o_O and sometimes try to be a calming effect myself, will try to think more about it, ofc dont want to see room killed, have seen that in rare cases on SE etc... anyway also think some of your thinking here is unduly optimistic/ idealistic.

I mean, someone came into Physics.SE's main chat room to ask a simple (HS-level) question about induced EMF. And got their answer while having to dodge through people talking about some user not in the room and others telling them to lay off and a half-dozen messages getting deleted. I wonder what impression they're taking away.

@vzn I'm not threatening to nuke, mind you. (Not that I even have that ability.) But I don't think we should beat around the bushes: much of today's activity did not look like what I'd call a "healthy" room.

@nitsua60 its a "regular-heavy" chat room. lots of regulars. have always thought it would be better if it was a little less busy sometimes but nobody seems to be willing to go into other chat rooms (even with invitations! have often tried that!)

@vzn Have you ever hung around in math.se's main room?

@nitsua60 we defn do not want to draw attn of higher SE mgt as "problem spot". think the mods can be drawn into that discussion.

@vzn We've already had that attention for quite a while

@nitsua60 havent been by there much but thiink several users here like to go back and forth (secret, balarka etc)

@vzn I ask because it's another "high activity" room (~1K msgs/day average, where hbar sits ~900) and it's what I'd call "healthy." People talk about all sorts of stuff, there are virtually always three simultaneous conversations going on... but not the drama.

@DavidZ am not aware of any negative SE mgt attn on the room. eg havent seen shog9 in ages afaik.

@vzn Yeah, it hasn't reached the level where non-mods would be aware of it.

@nitsua60 suggest you guys compare simple metrics of "flags per # of msgs/ # of users" etc. if there is some concern

So maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I think I'm optimistic in the way SE is. "Let's create a great, high-quality resource with the internet's highest signal-to-noise ratio."

Chat's got to support that ^^ or it's gone.

@vzn The notion that SE staff would spend any attention on a chat room is, to my thinking, "this isn't working right" level.

@DavidZ its a victim of its own success, you have old meta msg trying to build it up & now its "built up". dont know if you think any action needs to be taken. have some rough ideas if so.

@nitsua60 SE chat is an afterthought sitewide and theres lots of aspects that suggest that. think this conversation is much more concern about it than SE mgt has in general.

Routine/regular meta conversation about chat is, in my opinion, very helpful. It's easy for the chatizenry to become insular and only hear/notice the opinions of those who keep coming back for more, otherwise.

@nitsua60 the "chatzenry" (lol, cute) is 2nd or 3rd class "citizens" site wide etc.

@vzn (I believe you mean "stackizens.")

=)

sure

@nitsua60 that may be accurate but think thats an unrealistic/ not helpful attitude. eg a little too lassaiz faire... btw there are some occasional "SE official" chat sessions about site elections, town halls, etc... something to look at/ consider.

@vzn for the record: I think your interesting post on se chat that you linked could use a bullet point on the theme of "regulars and room owners and mods, speak up early and often and patiently."

@nitsua60 thx for reading it. speak up where? in the room? about what?

I'm looking particularly at this:

> pay particular attention to regulars, site moderators and room owners, and give them some respect esp about preferences/ good boundaries of discussion. definitely avoid testing/ pushing their boundaries.

If regulars, owners, and mods only step in at the kick/flag/suspend level, it's way too late.

"Hey, it seems like you're getting annoyed, everything alright?" (in my experience) goes a hell of a lot farther than a suspension. If it's said at the right time.

@nitsua60 agreed ideally the rooms run mostly without attn. however there are a lot of mods around the Physics room, it hasnt followed that more "hands-off" model for quite awhile. its a case study in a busy room. there are a few regulars who tend to "anchor" it. etc.

Which is to say, well before kick-able and suspend-able things are said.

@nitsua60 hey do you think that works in real bars too? face it hbar is not so inaptly named! :) anyway gotta run this has been interesting & maybe add more later. thx for dropping by & sharing your pov & will try to take all your feedback seriously. have a good one

@vzn You too--I'm almost always pingable (since I've "favorited" hbar) and almost never really in the room, since I find it so unpleasant =\

Be well.