Rational Thinkers (Hinduism.SE) - 2018-02-23

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TheLittleNaruto

4:42 AM

Hi @sv. @SK

I just joined chat to learn. Hope that's fine for you guys :)

1 hour later…

5:47 AM

@sv. Hiii , From my limited knowledge , i came to know that Maya is a thing invisible , Maya is present everywhere , it deludes us , and forces us to believe which is not absolute truth. Its purpose (my guess) is to create obstacles in mind of the people to test them , its a kind of barrier which all of us has to overcome in order to know the absolute truth , its a kind of exam we can say.. We cant escape it normally.

@sv. I think Maya is somewhat close to natural selection , Its for the selection , the one who overcomes it gets naturally selected. This is just my understanding though .

9 hours later…

2:48 PM

@TheLittleNaruto Sure, you are more than welcome, I don't own this chat room, all this belongs to SE platform. Anyone can join and chat! :)

@SwiftPushkar "absolute truth" - ha ha, there is nothing called absolute man, take the case of a star or black hole, you show me one and I'll show you an even bigger one.

@SwiftPushkar "its a kind of exam we can say.. We cant escape it normally." - so who came up with this test? how do you know it's a "test"? what evidence you got?

@SwiftPushkar Our understanding is based on scriptures, all right, but who wrote all these scriptures? If you go to the root of all this - it will be more than apparent it's all human created. Including the concept of "maya" -- I think it's a state of delirium.

TheLittleNaruto

3:10 PM

@sv. Thanks :)

I have got few questions, May I ask ? @sv.

@sv. What is your perspective ? How do you see this world ? Do you believe in existence of God if yes, How do you see him ?

@TheLittleNaruto I'm no expert, but feel free to ask.

TheLittleNaruto

I am sorry if I am asking too much ^^

But I want to know the answer from rational thinkers perspective.

@TheLittleNaruto There's no proof for any existence of God. Too many Gods - Too many contradictions. Religion has become a major source for sectarianism in the world today.

@TheLittleNaruto This whole concept of shakti, energy, 'we are all one', 'connected thru consciousness' is all wishful thinking at best.

TheLittleNaruto

@sv. That is true, I totally agree. But let's not consider what world has become at the moment, then what would be your answer ?

@TheLittleNaruto My current world view is: we got only one life, no karma, no reincarnation/rebirth, body is matter, when it 'dies', that's it.

TheLittleNaruto

3:18 PM

@sv. By that shall I assume that you're atheist ? ^^

washing away sins by dipping in a river, donating money into a hundi at a temple, blessings of parents/gurus -- all these don't mean anything in the end.

@TheLittleNaruto You can assume whatever you want :)

TheLittleNaruto

@sv. No I don't want to assume that, I am just trying to clearify, please don't take me wrong. :)

@sv. Man! That is completely true. There is a saying in Hindi, "Sau chuhe khakar billi chali haz ko" which means "after eating 100 rats, cat went for Haz".

@TheLittleNaruto No, I didn't take it in a wrong way. I started with 50-50 chance of god/karma/rebirth theory. I swung to the other direction because scriptural support for God is all childish arguments without any proof. No evidence. Nil. Nada.

TheLittleNaruto

@sv. So at the end, you found this is all childish

@TheLittleNaruto Absolutely. Very creative arguments. Sky is the limit for these imaginations.

@TheLittleNaruto Yeah, heard that saying.

TheLittleNaruto

3:23 PM

@sv. Ok one question, do you believe in God now ? Please answer with Yes or No. :)

@TheLittleNaruto Maybe :)

TheLittleNaruto

lol that's neither of the options you chose

"Maybe" is state of confusion

@TheLittleNaruto How does it matter what I believe?

The truth has to support itself, it doesn't matter whether someone believes it or not.

@TheLittleNaruto You need to rephrase the question as: "Did you find any strong evidence to believe in a God?" -- then my answer would be, No.

TheLittleNaruto

@sv. Well, I just want to know how do you believe in his existence.

@sv. Yes Exactly

But you still believe. Strange!

No, I never said I believe.

TheLittleNaruto

3:28 PM

But you said "Maybe"

A scientist always says maybe, there's a chance, provided there's a strong evidence.

TheLittleNaruto

Hmm, so you want to be in safe side being as neutral :P

will we cure cancer one day? maybe.

TheLittleNaruto

nice

@TheLittleNaruto at least on this site :)

TheLittleNaruto

3:29 PM

@sv. But I want an answer which you want to give. You can always delete the answer.

@TheLittleNaruto Can still see message history !!!!

TheLittleNaruto

@sv. If you don't mind is it possible for you to DM me on twitter ?

@TheLittleNaruto with yes or no? LOL ... u sound very desperate :P

TheLittleNaruto

@sv. See I want to learn every people thinking. If it makes me desperate, so be it.

@TheLittleNaruto what's your current world view?

TheLittleNaruto

3:35 PM

@sv. Not just yes or no, also more content which you're hiding being a neutral on this site :P

@sv. TBH same as yours

I didn't experience him(i.e. God) yet so I can't say anything

@TheLittleNaruto Fair enough. Have you heard of Russell's Teapot analogy?

Russell's teapot

Russell's teapot is an analogy, formulated by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970), to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others. Russell specifically applied his analogy in the context of religion. He wrote that if he were to assert, without offering proof, that a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, he could not expect anyone to believe him solely because his assertion could not be proven wrong. Russell's teapot is still invoked in discussions...

TheLittleNaruto

@sv. No, reading...

@TheLittleNaruto I think we're just born into one religion and stuck with it. Children are not taught to question the existence of God. It's a taboo.

TheLittleNaruto

@sv. For Today's era Religion is nothing but source of hatred imho.

The more you attached to it, you start believing it like it is the only truth which exists, rest religions are bullshits.

It happens, isn't it ?

But if you think about "the truth" and not consider "these religions", then what comes in your mind ?

@TheLittleNaruto Nothing, this is an imperfect world we live in, life is a constant struggle, all the talk about we're privileged to be born in "bharata varsha" is absolute b.s. Thinking that a perfect God created an imperfect world doesn't make sense. That we are his 'experiment' is another imagination.

TheLittleNaruto

3:51 PM

Thanks, I got my answer. :)

@TheLittleNaruto OK :)

TheLittleNaruto

I keep bugging you though whenever I'll have questions. ;)

Also if you can talk more on different platform, would be nice for me to connect with you.

@TheLittleNaruto Yeah sure. For the statements I made above any passionate user on this site would have entered into a vicious argument. But you didn't :D

TheLittleNaruto

@sv. hehe

I always listen to people properly when I ask questions

and try to analyse

@TheLittleNaruto good, you seem to be thinker just like me :P

TheLittleNaruto

3:56 PM

So far I didn't find you wrong anywhere

So we're good :P

@TheLittleNaruto Great.

TheLittleNaruto

If I may ask, are you into programming ?

@TheLittleNaruto Yes.

TheLittleNaruto

which technology ?

I am into Android.

@TheLittleNaruto Java, other web technologies, etc.

TheLittleNaruto

4:04 PM

nice.

@TheLittleNaruto Ok, ttyl buddy.

TheLittleNaruto

@sv. sure later o/

4:24 PM

@sv. I have posted some images previously. Did you read them?

@sv. Belief is everywhere. A nine year old believes words of his teachers about Solar System and planets. He didn't go and see them really. When he gets proper age (maturity and intelligence), he will verify them (now he can do easily through internet or telescope) but still it is not same as going in spacecraft and seeing those asteroid belts or planets.

Similarly, a beginner in Sanatana Dharma first believes scriptures and verify them later expanding his intellect (expanding his consciousness). One must get knowledgeable Guru to guide them. Belief is everywhere.

@sv. But if you don't read "logical arguments" of scriptures which we suggested (instead you asked us to give condensed form of those arguments). Do you really think you can explain everything in condensed form?? Can you tell me syntax of Java Programming Language in one line?

@TheDestroyer Yet to read them. Now thinking if it will help or make it worse :P

@sv. Ok. They will definitely help you.

@TheDestroyer a high-level flowchart or pseudocode is what I need, not a 200-300 page argument.

@sv. For newbies of programming??

Let assume i don't even know how to write if loop.

@TheDestroyer flow-chart by its very definition is for everyone, newcomer or oldtimer.

@TheDestroyer "verify them later expanding his intellect" -- this is exactly what everyone should be doing all the time even while reading them. Not blindly believe them first then verify later.

4:37 PM

@sv. That's not possible. Some things are obvious but some are not

When Krishna says in Gita, everyone takes birth and dies and again takes birth.. How can you verify something which you don't know after death?

@TheDestroyer It was probably Einstein who said 'the definition of genius is taking the complex and making it simple'

@sv. Then you are at wrong place. In Dharmas (at least in Indian faiths), first you believe then verify. This is what everyone does in life. Even you did same when you were kid. You believed your mother words as true when child and later verified them.

If you cannot make a flow-chart and insist on blindly believing the system to be true, you are not sure what you are getting into.

@TheDestroyer Then you shouldn't be commenting on what happens after death. How does Krishna know what happens after death?

Who's this Krishna?

@TheDestroyer 'believed your mother words as true when child and later verified them' - true, because the child is not intelligent enough that made sense. But that argument doesn't work for homeopathy, astrology and other pseudosciences.

@sv. Because he knows what happens after death. you don't know. You can even verify it by expanding your intellect. Why didn't you speak just the moment you were born?? You need to expand your consciousness and intellect.

@TheDestroyer No, ALL faiths insist on believing in the words of scriptures.

4:44 PM

"But that argument doesn't work for homeopathy, astrology and other pseudosciences." I see prejudice. Then i think there is no use in discussing something if you fix your mind on them as pseudo science.
"

@TheDestroyer "Because he knows what happens after death. you don't know." - that's a blind belief once again, no evidence of anyone coming from the dead and talking to alive people after death.

@TheDestroyer Yes, there is a prejudice because I studied them. Homeopathy is debunked. So is Astrology. Several YouTube videos made by people with science background.

@sv. Why we should be discuss something on which i don't have much knowledge. Do you know? In Telugu, Religion is called "Matam" because it comes from "Man" or "Mati". What comes from mind can be biased and subjective. It is not objective. But Indian Religions are called Dharmas. But honestly, one needs Yogic mind to understand religions properly

Homeopathy Explained – Gentle Healing or Reckless Fraud?

@sv. Really?? There are people who think Graha is same as Planet. How can they debunk astrology??

@sv. What our Rishis said is objective. Even what Buddha said. Hence called Dharma, Buddha Dharma

@sv. Is Homeopathy same as Ayurveda?

@TheDestroyer "one needs Yogic mind to understand religions properly" - circular logic. You say to understand this one needs to "expand" their intellect. Yet, this comes from people who have no idea how this expansion works. This is again based on blind belief in scriptures or people with claims of 'expanded' intellect.

@TheDestroyer Ayurveda at least has some base material to work with. Homeopathy is absolute fraud.

My recent visit to Hyderabad I saw dozens of Homeopathic stores everywhere. It's become a big business in India now. No way to stop it.

4:52 PM

@sv. Let's see simple Analogy. Let consider what majority Indians are studying physics in Universities or in Inter. In them how many of them understand Physics correctly. How many students are able to solve problems correctly. You might guess numbers. Now, let's consider same for Astrology. How many are studying them properly (other than for money)??

How many understand this Sastra properly?? Very few are studying them and most of them are using it just for money. So, you find very very few real Jyotihs.

@TheDestroyer Astrology is another fraud. Fooling the gullible people who don't have a proper science background.

If a Physics Professor can't solve a physics problem, we should blame the professor not Physics. Physics is study of nature. He is not able to understand it,

@TheDestroyer the science portion of astrology (how the planets move about) is ok but the predictive astrology is absolute fraud.

@sv. Obviously not. It is vedanga, limb of Veda and it survived even when tons of manuscript were destroyed in Nalanda University burnings.

@sv. It is prediction (probability). How to predict stocks? Is that bad?? We need proper knowledge to predict correctly,

@TheDestroyer just because something is documented in Vedas or Vedanga and whatever other cool name you use doesn't make it true.

@TheDestroyer Yes, prediction, but based on what? Freaking planets? Don't they have any other business than interfering with people's lives on Earth?!

4:57 PM

@sv. I can make you believe in existence of God but that will be detrimental to you. I can give some Tantras Mantras and tell you chant and definitely. I know some people who faced ill effects when they chanted Mantras without proper guidance. Simplest thing can be, you can wear a Rudraksamala.

I predict that taking a Paracetamol will reduce my fever. But my prediction is based on some underlying fact.

@sv. Not Planets what you think. They are Grahas. "Grah" Sanskrit Dhatu which means "captivate" or "seize off". which mean something which affetcts you is Graha. In English Planet is different.

I cannot predict that eating a weed I find on the road will reduce my fever.

Sun is Graha and Moon too. Not Planets

Graha is different from Planets. See how they are named. You will know difference

@TheDestroyer If the "grahas" are not same the English planets, what are they?

5:00 PM

@sv. you believe in Mantras??

@TheDestroyer mantras for rain and curing diseases? No.

@sv. Grahas are something which affect you. Earth is not Graha.

@sv. Generally??

@TheDestroyer They sound nice when accompanied with some music. Other than that, no.

@sv. By same logic, everything in space should affect us. But only 9 Grahas are 27 Nakshatras are deciding. So, Graha is not simply planet,

@TheDestroyer The big question is how your timing of birth determined for this predictive astrology sake?

2

Q: Hindu astrology and the timing of birth

The Skeptic's Dictionary while arguing that astrology is nothing more than a superstition brings up some interesting questions: Astrologers emphasize the importance of the positions of the Sun, Moon, planets, etc., at the time of birth. However, the birthing process isn’t instantaneous. There...

astrology time superstitions birth

@TheDestroyer Please don't tell me I need to expand my intellect to understand this. How did the original Rishis came up with this concept? Deep meditative state?

Read about how Homeopathy was invented. Then you'll understand how Astrology was invented.

5:05 PM

@sv. Yes. many things in Ancient India were like that. Do you know it is said Varahamira wrote Surya Siddhanta when Surya Deva dictated him. he did tapasya for him.

both fall into the fraud category. supernatural explanation for things happening to humans.

@sv. Yoga is way to expand consciousness.

Kundalini Yoga is easiest method.

If you are physically fit and get proper Guru

@TheDestroyer Yeah, you keep trying and let me know if it works!

@sv. When one goes to that stage, he won't even come to this site.

He keeps smiling always and stay peaceful.

@TheDestroyer Yes, I imagine he will be flying near the grahas you just mentioned.

5:08 PM

@sv. bad joke.

@sv. One think i understood is, you fixed your mind strongly that all these things are fake and ridiculous. So, i think we are good to stop now.

@TheDestroyer Yeah, agree :)

@TheDestroyer tapasya simply means hard work, the poetic way of saying he worked hard is: 'he did tapasya' -- not meant to taken literally.

@sv. That's not correct in true sense. "Tap" means heat.

consume by heat.. tapasya,,

Although it could also mean hard work in some cases

More importantly, Sahasra means many. Need not be 1000 always

Sahasra bahu.. many hands, Sahasra Varsha.. Many years

@TheDestroyer It is generally used for 1000 or more than thousand. Also for infinite.

Not for several.

@NogShine "At large number" or "many" both mean same

@TheDestroyer but it is not used for a number like 50, 100. Only for more than 1000.

5:17 PM

@NogShine Can you show me any evidence for this?? It is generally used for something in large numbers.

I am going now. Will catch you later.

@TheDestroyer That is what I am saying too. Not for small numbers like 50, 100.

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