TRPG General Chat

11:00 AM

> This is my ship. Once per session you can automatically succeed with style on an Overcome action by revealing how your perfect understanding of your vessel makes it easy.

Sandwich

Is that a Dungeon world effect? Or a Fate one?

doppelgreener

@Sandwich Right, and I can get what you mean by it, they're just not the right words to use to convey the design philosophy for the first time. I only know what you meant by it because I know it already, otherwise it may sound like "success has to negate everything, no bad stuff at all" which isn't the case.

Sandwich

I like making items

doppelgreener

@Sandwich Fate stunt :)

Sandwich

Its fun

@youjay Did you have any other questions about design philosophy or game balance that you wanted to run by me?

kviiri

11:02 AM

@Sandwich Me too, although I'm a bit undecided on the type of magic items I find the most interesting in DnD.

Sandwich

@kviiri That answer is obvious

Youjay

makes sense, i saw the "any creature moving against the wind must spend 1 extra foot of movement for each foot moved." in the Control Wind spell description and I might add that too. Inorder to restrict it a bit, maybe I could make it have 10 charges that expend automatically every slash. 1 short rest regains 1d10 charges and 1 long rest regains them all.

Sandwich

The ridiculous ones

Youjay

not at this time, sandwich

that is a sentence i didn't expect to say today

Sandwich

Well you can generally find me here if you do want to ask another question about game design

kviiri

11:03 AM

@Sandwich We had this problem in one DnD table where the barbarian's player was getting bored with "I hit it with my axe" gameplay. I asked him if he wants some magic item and he couldn't think of anything else except a magic axe. But +1 axes are boring as heck.

Sandwich

If I'm not here you can pester Shalvenay

So give him a +1 axe that makes a funny noise and fires out confetti when he lands a hit

doppelgreener

Something on my mind also: it feels like the make-ship-go-faster thing should be free. Like, that's almost never going to win the day, maybe only once, unless this story is all about naval adventures and sea combat, which almost certainly it isn't. It's just going to affect narration in travel.

Sandwich

And keep a noisemaker at the table

And blow it whenever he hits

Youjay

Neat! I'm currently Homebrewing my first campaign for a bunch of newbies, so I'm hoping all goes well. If i have any more questions ill be sure to ask.

doppelgreener

It's a fifth level spell, sure — but it's a weak fifth level effect.

Sandwich

11:04 AM

It is

Its a third of the spell effect

doppelgreener

Making it cost more than the other stuff feels weird in a charge paradigm.

kviiri

@Sandwich Nope, he found an axe with three dwarvish runes, each of which could be activated once per long rest upon last-hitting an enemy to cast low-level spells.

Sandwich

If It wasn't clear I was joking

kviiri

The player was quite intent on last-hitting things anyway so it also tied well into his playing preferences :)

Sandwich

A confetti firing axe was ridiculous

Makes sense I guess Doppel

Since thats only a third of the effect of Control wind

But the control wind effect does allow you to specify the strength of the wind you're blowing at the thing

So if you're attempting to emulate that with the sword you could do more than just make a ship go fast

Youjay

11:07 AM

Actually here's a question. How do you make environments less repetitive? I've got some random encounters and a few set encounters, but my PC's need to travel in these environments for 2-3 days and level up in every one. I'm afraid it might get tedious.

eimyr

> This is my ship. Once per session you can spend a Fate Point to place [Madly in love with ...] Aspect on a character. The other character takes 2 Mental Stress.

Youjay

please curb my paranoia

BESW

@eimyr [face/palm]

Sandwich

Generally you should omit traveling if nothing important happens or is planned to happen during the trip Youjay

eimyr

@BESW Glad to be of service.

doppelgreener

11:08 AM

@eimyr haaaa, I get it

@BESW this would be good for a nautical arc in JoJo's bizarre adventures

JoJo is all about one-upsmanship, like "ha-haaa, you THOUGHT I was falling for your trap but really YOU fell for MY trap!!"

BESW

> This is my ship. You get +2 when using Overcome actions to steal a vessel, or to meddle in the romantic affairs of others.

Sandwich

This is my rum. Once per session you can spend a Fate Point to place a bottle of rum in your mouth. The other character takes 2 Mental Stress.

BESW

Line breaks break markdown.

eimyr

> This is my ship. You can declare any object buoyant until the end of scene.

Sandwich

But why is the rum gone? If your rum is taken away, or you run out of rum, You take 2 points of mental stress.

But yeah in all seriousness @Youjay if traveling isn't important you should definitely omit it as you're just wasting time to say "you get to x", "you set up camp", "nothing happens overnight", "you wake up and start moving again"

It isn't contributing to the plot in any way

And it isn't advancing the players agency

kviiri

11:13 AM

> This isn't my ship. When you're on a sinking vessel, you can declare anyone else to be ultimately responsible for salvaging the situation and they have to make at least a token effort to fulfill this responsibility.

eimyr

@Sandwich The hobbits, the hobbits, the hobbits, the hobbits You gain +2 to Overcome when seeing with your elf eyes. Gain a Fate Point if the object is moving towards Isengard.

Youjay

My problem is that i want the players to gain experience and level up inside those environments, so i can't just skip through it. (otherwise we could probably get through the entire campaign in two session)

eimyr

@Youjay Can I chime in?

Sandwich

@BESW This isn't my ship. When you're on a sinking ship, you can give your hat to another person, thereby making them captain and ultimately making the sinking ship their problem.

kviiri

@Youjay You could switch to milestone leveling

Give levels for doing interesting stuff like beating bosses and completing (sub-)quests.

Sandwich

11:16 AM

You could put a sub-quest in between A and B and give them something to do on the way to their main objective

That's a much better use of the time

Youjay

fuck... Yes... that is brilliant!

Sandwich

Since you have a point which you can use to break up the travel segments

kviiri

> Second breakfast. You can invent new meals without spending a Fate point and everyone accepts these as a part of a normal, healthy eating culture.

Sandwich

Looks like a hobbit action heh

kviiri

@Youjay Yeah, it has worked very well for our table at least :)

doppelgreener

11:17 AM

> Lasting Impression. Because you have your signature funky kicking boots, whenever you get into a fight with someone from the underground, you can Create Advantage with Provoke for free versus a difficulty of 2 to make someone frightened of you because of your reputation (for kicking).

eimyr

I don't think I've ever used anything other than milestone leveling or constant-XP-per-game-session.

Sandwich

There are many options you have at a table @Youjay. You never want to lock yourself into one way of thinking because an open mind breeds ingenuity. If you think that one way is the only way of thinking it's only going to block you off to other better solutions.

kviiri

We used the default leveling scheme in Deadlands:Reloaded but no one liked it very much.

The basic idea is that players get 1-3 XP per session depending on how much happened to them, and then roll d6 for each Fate Chip (not to be confused with Fate tokens of Fate) they have remaining. Each five or six is an extra 1 XP.

Sandwich

Some times its also fine to be led by players instead of you doing the leading

It can pad out the time between main plot events

kviiri

That's one of my pet peeves in game design. "Here are the cool tokens for when the dice won't simply cut it, and we'll totally reward you for never using any!"

eimyr

11:22 AM

@Sandwich Pick a game that works well with player-driven gameplay, is my first advice.

kviiri

Aye

doppelgreener

Enthusiasm appreciated and understood, but please avoid swear words on this site. ;)

Sandwich

Yeah thats poor design Kviiri

Its the megalixir effect

eimyr

@kviiri LOL, @kviiri, see Dishonored series for video game version of the same. "Here's 10 different cool ways to act like an assassin. Also, if you act like one you get the bad ending."

Sandwich

AKA an item is so good that a player never wants to use it for fear that they may be wasting it for something worse that could happen further down the line

BESW

11:24 AM

@kviiri This is where I thought Lady Blackbird got really clever: you get a little XP each time you play into a significant character trait... and a LOT of XP when you defy that trait so thoroughly that you change it out for another.

eimyr

@BESW Best part of Lady Blackbird, hands down.

kviiri

@Sandwich Yeah, but there's a subtle thing that makes it even worse: characters who are performing poorer have to use more Fate chips to survive, and thus slowly fall behind in XP even more compared to those who can survive without spending their chips.

Granted, the effect is slow, but still noticeable.

BESW

@eimyr I think it's derived from Shadow of Yesterday.

eimyr

@BESW Matters not if it originated elsewhere.

kviiri

Every 5 XP gvies the character an improvement, and characters typically start with three Fate chips daily. A character who spends all their chips during each session compared to one who keeps two chips per session on average falls behind by one improvement once every 7.5 sessions on average.

BESW

11:29 AM

@kviiri And that's why I've kicked XP-based leveling out of any of the few systems I still use that actually do level-like advancement.

Heck, I've started ignoring most of Fate's higher milestones.

...though admittedly that's partly because even if all the players were present for every milestone, the power creep would still be a problem.

kviiri

Amazing how many problems are founded in the assumption that characters just have to gain raw power as the game progresses, amirite? :)

The Oracle

0

Q: Armor for mages?

In 5e whats the ruling about arcane casters and armors. I was looking through the book and didn't see anything but I just wanted to be sure, that if I get profiency it won't be for nothing.

kviiri

An actual discussion I had with a friend in sauna night a while back:

> Him: "I think DnD gets silly at high levels"
> Me: "You should try something like E6 where the level cap is much lower."
> Him: "What's the point of that?!"

Sandwich

In 3.5e theres two levels

Squishy baby

And Phenomenal cosmic power

BESW

@Sandwich ...Itty bitty space to write it in on the character sheet?

doppelgreener

11:34 AM

@kviiri argh!

Sandwich

There's never enough space on a character sheet for a wizard

BESW

@kviiri I'm kinda interested in seeing how GSS power works over long campaigns.

kviiri

@BESW What's GSS?

BESW

Golden Sky Stories.

Aug 22 '17 at 23:40, by JuneShores

@Shalvenay Golden Sky Stories is a modern fantasy set in a small, rural town where the party plays shapeshifting animal spirits who help their town and make it a better place, by solving problems and making friends.

kviiri

@Sandwich I made my current monk charsheet on a blank paper with a pen because I don't need all the space for useless junk but I need a lot of space for writing cool names for my martial arts attacks.

BESW

11:36 AM

The points that power your features are keyed off how many friends you have.

kviiri

Angry Hornet Stings the Obsidian Badger!

BESW

But there's a sort of rotating list mechanic to keep the focus on the friends who are relephant to that particular session.

Sandwich

I think if I was an animal spirit I would be a giant enemy crab

kviiri

@BESW This sounds like very feelgood game :)

BESW

@kviiri It is a very feelgood game.

Sandwich

11:37 AM

It sounds like Hamtaro

BESW

In our first session, we helped a lonely kitsune by taking her to town and stealing tofu for her.

(She paid for it, because kitsune know you're supposed to do that sort of thing. But we were a cat, a puppy, and a bird, so we didn't.)

Sandwich

Lonely Kitsune: Relationship gained
Soybeans: Relationship lost

BESW

Oh, and players can also award each other XP-type points (which you spend to improve relationships) for being especially adorable.

eimyr

@BESW lostgarden.com/2018/01/cozy-games.html

BESW

Interesting. [ignores section on Maslow]

It would be nice to see a writeup like that for tabletop games.

I could expand on Puppy Day.

doppelgreener

11:46 AM

> Nobody ever notices the cleaning lady. As long as you're in your cleaning lady uniform, you automatically Succeed at any overcome actions to get around a secure area, and have +2 to remain unnoticed with Stealth while doing cleaning lady things. However, you're vulnerable to being roped into things you weren't here to do, because you're a cleaning lady.

kviiri

@BESW As an experienced Fate player and GM, and regarding the three-act structure we touched on yesterday... what is your recourse if the players somehow resolve the story where the first act was supposed to end?

BESW

Suddenly, A Shot Rang Out!

kviiri

@BESW ...this is genius.

BESW

...not literally (usually), but I just keep rolling from whatever question was answered into the choice that will set up the next question for the next act.

> Such things happened, but not so rapidly, nor to so close-knit a group of people, nor within so narrow a frame of logic. This was inevitable because the demand was for constant action; if you stopped to think you were lost. When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
—Raymond Chandler

kviiri

@BESW My GM often refers to this as "hobo with a shotgun", which is apparently his former GM's way for resolving situations that lack tension.

BESW

11:51 AM

I had a campaign, a very long time ago, in which Troggy's brother invented this running gag where his character was convinced he was being stalked by gnome ninjas.

...so when I was completely up against a wall one night because they'd completed all my prepped material in less than a quarter of the session time, they got attacked by gnome ninjas.

The players immediately began speculation about exactly what the ninjas wanted, why they were attacking now, who the ninjas might be working with or for or against. I listened, and stole the ideas I liked.

That's the "man with a gun" principle: introduce something that demands immediate response while also implying new questions, and then write or play into it to discover how the characters will deal with the danger and what the questions are.

kviiri

/me writes down

BESW

(A lot of good writing advice is horrible advice for GMing, but this one works largely because Chandler's talking about improvising against really tight deadlines within a genre that has familiar lines and edges.)

kviiri

Yea, that sounds excellent to me

BESW

It's not a plotting device so much as a writing-prompt device.

It's like in an improv show when you ask "give me a thing you find in the movies!"

doppelgreener

@BESW You mean we shouldn't have an ending, plot twists, and protagonist deaths predefined?

BESW

11:58 AM

@doppelgreener There are some limited forms of RPG where that works. But many authors don't find it works for them either.

Stephen King would start with a premise and write until he found an ending.

doppelgreener

Ooh.

Intradesting

BESW

Beverly Cleary would write the last page and then go back to the beginning and write to find out how the characters would get to that ending.

Ann Leckie wrote Ancillary Justice because she'd made up a scifi world standing in line at the post office and wanted to tell stories in that world.

Sandwich

Today, thousands of people showed up for the 46th annual Ninja parade, in which a parade of ninjas moved throughout the town of San Diego completely undetected.

eimyr

@Sandwich "One Naruto fan was reported to have spoiled everything."

BESW

NK Jemisin wrote The Fifth Season because she had a dream of a girl being followed by a floating mountain, intent on revenge; which she combined with the goal of writing a character whose experience could make sense of a particularly horrible crime she'd read about.

Mira Grant will kill at least one character you like in every novel she writes. Nothing else is certain, but she does that on purpose.

Dear ENWorld: You forgot Fourth Edition. Again.

doppelgreener

12:06 PM

From imgur, Toronto looks like a scene from Blade Runner:

kviiri

> The flaw in later D&D was that it was a game that was good at modeling killing, and spent a decade trying to be anything other than a game about killing.

That's pretty well said though.

BESW

Which decade?

Because, again, Fourth Edition.

kviiri

@BESW I was just about to point out that it's an unusually long decade!

Because I've been under the impression that it's been DnD's thing always... except for 4e, yup.

BESW

3.x thought it had succeeded at not being all about killing, but it really really hadn't.

doppelgreener

Then the 4e (nearly) decade was all about not trying to be anything other than a game about modelling killing.

BESW

12:09 PM

4e leaned into the tactical combat simulator niche hard.

doppelgreener

Speaking of which, at Dragonmeet a couple of months ago -- an small indie RPG convention, of which there are apparently many here -- one of the panels got to talking about violence in RPGs. Or specifically, the lack thereof. Like, why are almost all the RPGs fundamentally about enacting physical violence? We're almost certainly that way because of our roots in D&D and wargaming, but why are things still like that?

There is apparently a popular indie RPG maker who's personally vowed to never make a game about or featuring violence ever again. There's enough of that already, so they will explore literally any other avenue at all. And have thus bound themselves to have no other choice but to explore, well, all of that. All the stuff that doesn't involve or need violence.

kviiri

Fiction in general does that. Not as extremely as RPGs though.

BESW

@doppelgreener So envious that you live in a con-heavy area.

doppelgreener

@BESW I didn't know but gosh now I wish you and @trogdor were here so I could take you with @eimyr and I to all of them. :P

Sandwich

3.x was about killing things 100% faster than they could kill you

trogdor

12:12 PM

lol

I would hate it

BESW

@kviiri There is now a prize for thriller novels that don't do terrible things to women, just to make a point.

eimyr

@doppelgreener Which panel was that? the upcoming hotness?

@doppelgreener Jason Morningstar, who is also coincidentally known for creating really depressing and dark settings.

BESW

@doppelgreener But yeah.... I'm really glad to have found games like Golden Sky Stories and Bubblegumshoe!

doppelgreener

@eimyr That was the one with Becky, the prolific GM guy, and I can't remember who else (the other friend we met with Becky?).

BESW

→ 6 messages moved to Not a bar, but plays one on TV

doppelgreener

12:16 PM

@eimyr thanks for the namedrop, i had no idea who it was :)

BESW

@eimyr What's he done?

The name sounds vaguely familiar.

doppelgreener

@BESW This is a very good development... especially considering we're in a landscape where such an award is actually necessary.

@BESW He made Fiasco!!! :O

eimyr

@doppelgreener Liz Lovegrove, Rob Carnel, Becky Annison, Lloyd Gyan anddd... can't remember.

BESW

Ooer.

eimyr

@BESW Fiasco, Durance, Night Witches...

doppelgreener

12:18 PM

And Night Witches!!

BESW

So I haven't played anything by him, but would like to.

And based on reputation, I'm very interested in what he'll do with the new direction.

eimyr

Right now he's writing a LARP game with the explicit purpose to aid in teaching nongov orgs how authorities can try to dismantle them through infiltration, member planting and promoting internal imbalance

I suppose you would truly be interested in his upcoming work

bullypulpitgames.com/winterhorn-now-available

well guess what, it's out now

BESW

I recently saw some folks talking about drama at a writers' convention, the details of which are unimportant but my take-away was: there was a whole panel of writers who survived disasters, talking about how exciting and dramatic it is when folks rally together in a crisis.

And the panel was about how to write about that in your scifi novels, instead of relying on people being exploitative jerks in times of crisis to fuel your drama and tension.

I want to think about how to lean into that concept in my games. Bubblegumshoe has some potential in that direction.

Dwarven gate.

@kviiri BTW, re: Fate in particular: the best way to push for a choice that creates a new question for a new act is... compelling a character aspect.

If the session seems to be wrapping up too early, throw some fate points at the players to get 'em to make existing things worse, or to create entirely new problems.

BESW

1:04 PM

@eimyr Iiiinteresting.

Not my thing to actually play, but definitely something I'm glad exists and I will point people at it and say "look! it is a thing!"

Do you really get to make a Wall Of Crazy as part of the game?

kviiri

@BESW Noted :)

BESW

To use the same parlance as above, have one of the PCs be the one pulling the gun.

kviiri

Excellent!

doppelgreener

@BESW Oh! Yes! This game, man. Winterhorn's kind of amazing for me because it's among those pushing the boundaries of what a tabletop RPG can do. It's a game that exists specifically to educate activist groups on the techniques that would be used to disrupt and destroy them -- and it does so by having those groups use those techniques themselves in a roleplaying setting, thus letting them recognise & guard against those techniques in the real world.

BESW

@doppelgreener Some years ago I read about a task force that was taking a day of LARP to simulate being refugees in a UN camp, before they went in to help refugees in UN camps.

doppelgreener

1:17 PM

Nice. :)

That's pretty good.

BESW

It didn't sound quite so familiarly gamified, though.

nitsua60

@Sandwich I do feel like gust of wind is the better comparison. Thunderwave's 10' cube doesn't come close to the grasscutter's 60' cone. Gust of wind's 60'x10' is closer, and it has the effect on flames, and it doesn't do damage (like the grasscutter, while thunderwave does).

SPavel

1:31 PM

Good morning, jabronies

@BESW Is this related to Cory Doctorow's thing about utopias?

BESW

[wave]

@SPavel I don't know?

SPavel

@BESW wired.com/2017/04/cory-doctorow-walkaway

A great article

BESW

> Grasscutter. You get +2 when using this short, wide blade to chop through jungles or do yardwork.

@SPavel [adds several books to reading list]

SPavel

@BESW haha, I actually picked up Too Like the Lightning because of that article

It's...different

BESW

@SPavel Confronting and deconstructing that "weaponized narrative" he talks about is at the core of Jemisin's Broken Earth trilogy.

SPavel

1:39 PM

@BESW I didn't get that from Broken Earth

BESW

It's set in a world so tectonically active that humans have developed the ability to sense tectonic activity at a distance, and all society is built around being able to have some of humanity survive the next impending apocalypse.

SPavel

@BESW Well no, they kill all the tectonically sensitive humans when they can

BESW

Noooope. All humans can feel tectonics. Only orogenes can manipulate tectonics.

SPavel

Well, all humans can feel tectonics even now (because the ground shakes), orogenes can sense them before they happen and trace their source, which is the useful ability

BESW

But yeah, dystopia: society is built on the knowledge that if it comes down to it, you and your neighbour have got to be willing to eat each other.

Peoples' place in society is basically "how useful are you, which means how quickly will we turn on you and either cast you out or eat you?"

It's civilization rooted in a narrative of civilization's inevitable collapse. They live in a world pocked by the ruins of deadcivs, absolutely certain that they will be the next deadciv.

Doctorow: "The belief in the barely restrained predatory nature of the people around you is the cause of dystopia, the belief that turns mere crises into catastrophes."

Castrima-under is aberrant to the point of revolution because it dares to think that its citizens won't have to turn on each other.

@SPavel From The Fifth Season:

> Damaya can sess footsteps. Most people can’t; they sess big things, shakes and whatnot, but not anything so delicate as a footfall. (She has known this about herself all her life but only recently realized it was a warning.)

> Even though the big shake from the north missed Tirimo, everyone knows it should have hit. The sessapinae do not lie, or at least not with such jangling, nerve-racking, mind-screaming strength. Everyone from new-borns to addled elders sessed that one coming.

SPavel

1:53 PM

Huh.

BESW

> Earth our father knew He would need clever life, so He used the Seasons to shape us out of animals: clever hands for making things and clever minds for solving problems and clever tongues for working together and clever sessapinae to warn us of danger.

We don't spend a lot of with non-orogene narrators, so it can slip past, but it's definitely there.

Jemisin's written about how she wanted to make the world of Broken Earth completely unlike our own, and that part of that was making its people not map to anyone in our world while still being recognizably people.

For example, ashblow hair.

doppelgreener

2:30 PM

@BESW what is ashblow hair? :O

greetings, @TheTinyMan!

TheTinyMan

@doppelgreener Heya!

doppelgreener

coincidentally on this site we also have a Miniman...

come to think of it you've probably seen them around!

NautArch

Now we need a VerySmallMan

doppelgreener

Well we have a Very Big Dragon (trogdor)... or a Moderately Sized Dragon. It's hard to tell how we should describe that sort of thing.

TheTinyMan

@doppelgreener Hmm. I've been playing Guild of Dungeoneering on my phone, and have encountered a One-Headed Monkey. Maybe it needs to come into chat somehow. :-)

doppelgreener

2:34 PM

I am open to this increase in Adjective Thing things

TheTinyMan

@doppelgreener Perhaps a Blue @doppelgreener?

doppelgreener

@TheTinyMan [reels in horror]

Perish the thought.

Plus, moderators are definitely green.

If you are seeing blue doppelgreeners, this is a common error that can be easily remedied.

TheTinyMan

@doppelgreener Hmm. That sounds like I'd have to click, like, at least two links.

That sounds like a lot of work.

NautArch

@doppelgreener unless you're blue-green colorblind

doppelgreener

@NautArch [x-files theme plays]

@TheTinyMan it's rather a lot, yeah

SPavel

2:39 PM

@NautArch The interesting thing is that B-G colourblindness can also be cultural

Especially in East Asia

Also, the Ancient Greeks called the sky "bronze"

doppelgreener

i've read about that, but is there actually any solid evidence people would not perceive difference between the colors?

SPavel

Colour is wack

@doppelgreener They would probably perceive but not process the distinction

doppelgreener

like, i can tell the difference between two shades of blue even if i don't have a word for them

but i can better recognise them if i have words for them, for sure

like "oh that's cobalt blue"

versus "oh that's blue, a shade i have no specific name for"

eimyr

@doppelgreener No and there never will be. It's just about impossible to determine whether a large group of ancient people had conceptual, lexical or vision difference to modern people.

NautArch

Has anyone here done battles in 3D on a battle map (thinking underwater battle without a floor)

eimyr

2:47 PM

It's well known that some medieval and earlier cultures considered what we now call "blue" a shade of what we now call "green"

We know, because of the archeological record - there are dyeing "tutorials" which result in blue and green colours both described to produce "green"

TheTinyMan

@NautArch I haven't but I've heard of using chips or tokens stacked beneath a mini to represent height?

NautArch

@TheTinyMan we've often used dice with the number up, but tokens is an interesting idea to simplify that

could use checkers, but that still requires a 'baselin'- which I guess could be below the surface rather than above the seafloor?

TheTinyMan

@NautArch Dice actually sounds simpler to me, less moving stuff around and picking up pieces and knocking stacks over. :-P

eimyr

@SPavel So perhaps they would act like some modern cultures, in which sky-blue and dark navy is considered two completely different colours? they can see the difference, they can describe the difference but to them we are just as colorblind as those ancient cultures.

TheTinyMan

@NautArch Yeah, that's probably how I'd wind up doing it, too

NautArch

2:51 PM

@TheTinyMan sea level as baseline and the more chips, the deeper you are?

eimyr

not because of some neurological or psychological phenomenon, but just by placing no significance on such a relationship

TheTinyMan

@NautArch Yeah, possibly using poker chips and different colors to indicate when someone is close to the floor or something if they go down that far

NautArch

@TheTinyMan that's a good idea. Wasn't planning on floor necessity, but good to have one in mind in case someone pushes it.

We've never really done an underwater battle and I think it'd be fun.

and challenging.

no verbal spellcasting, slower move speeds, disadvantage on attacks with weapons that don't work well underwater

SPavel

@NautArch Don't forget 3D combat grid

Oh, that is the source of the issue

Just keep in mind that it will be a pain to do

What do you do when one guy is 100ft below everyone else?

nitsua60

@NautArch When I have it's been a piece of foam-board with a 1" grid Sharpied onto it, and minis on bamboo skewers stuck into the foam.

NautArch

3:07 PM

@SPavel Same thing we do if someone is flying 100' above?

nitsua60

@NautArch you make them stand on their chair holding their mini?

NautArch

@nitsua60 Hmm. Then it's a forced floor? I was really hoping for a complete open water feel (and why I was thinking about distance below surface rather than distance above seafloor). Kinda turns the whole thing upside down

nitsua60

@NautArch I mean, we play on a table so there will always be a forced floor. Whether that "floor" is at an elevation of +300' or -50' or undefined, the physical table establishes a reference plane.

NautArch

@nitsua60 Yeah, I guess I was hoping to move away from the 'table' being the 'floor'

nitsua60

@NautArch But it sounds like what you want means sticking pushpins into the ceiling and minis hanging from strings =)

NautArch

3:14 PM

and having a seafloor shouldn't really be a mechanical issue as you're still swimming.

TheTinyMan

@nitsua60 Dude. That sounds like a joke, but there is some potential here with Legos! xD

NautArch

@nitsua60 I was actually starting to think of that with the strings being able to be pulled up, let down. But building that grid would be a PiTA for a one-off session :)

Mostly, a lot of this is inspired by the recent KRaken questions. And we're a party of level 15/16 adventureres. And now I want to release the kraken.

SPavel

@NautArch What do you do? I have never been able to come up with a decent solution for flight that helps people visualize the distance

A d20 spinoff that I was once part of (Legend) abolished altitudes entirely and instead had states - extremely high, flying, surface, swimming/burrowing, extremely deep

It worked well, even if Fireballs were really Firepillars because they could hit flying creatures

NautArch

@SPavel We generally just put a d10 with the 0 up to signify 100'.

doppelgreener

I just noticed the Alarm spell has one of those spell component jokes. The spell components are a bell and some wire. It's just a tripwire. 8) Definitely magical though! That person's a wizard! Can hardly even see the wire!

SPavel

3:22 PM

@NautArch That goes back to the "visualize" part

NautArch

I'm debating trying out pure theatre of the mind for it

SPavel

@doppelgreener Lightning Bolt components are metal and fleece IIRC (to generate a static charge)

NautArch

but that may just be more confusing

SPavel

Yeah, with theatre of the mind players always want to make sure they are flanking or can charge

NautArch

@SPavel and we're generally not a ToTM table, so I'm not sure if it'll be easier

also realizing non-darkvision creatures are gonna have a helluva time. Have to find a way to get them a lightsource.

doppelgreener

3:30 PM

@SPavel yes :D

eimyr

in D&D are components consumed on cast?

doppelgreener

i should link this answer here since it explains what i mean by a spell component joke in the quote it features

NautArch

@eimyr only if it says they are for 5e

NautArch

3:50 PM

Oooh, i could put bioluminescence in the water. ANy time something moves, it lights up and gives a 10' dim light (some serious dinoflagellates)

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener I noticed that too!

kviiri

@eimyr DnD 5e spell material components are mostly flavor-only (except their role for flavor is mostly a sad attempt to make jokes)

Rubiksmoose

on the topic of alarm and that question in particular, I wish OP had not chosen my answer :-/ rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/114346/…

kviiri

@eimyr Basically any material component that isn't specified to have a cost in GP can be replaced by having a component pouch or a spellcasting focus.

NautArch

@kviiri just because a component has a cost doesn't mean it's consumed (i think...)

kviiri

3:53 PM

@NautArch Correct

Chromatic orb iirc has a costly component non-consumed

eimyr

So.. components are like divine focus thingy - it does nothing as long as you have it?

kviiri

@eimyr Pretty much, yup.

eimyr

Such a missed opportunity.

kviiri

Yeah, there's some that would be interesting in any other game. Eg. banishment requires "an object found distateful by the target" (another of those jokes) but since it doesn't have a cost, it isn't actually needed - a pouch or focus is sufficient.

eimyr

I would totally play a game where players are stripped of their posessions and the barbarian takes a rusty pipe and is back to 90% combat effectiveness and the wizard is like "ok, three lamprey skins, is there a fish market anywhere? Next on the list: "special inks". Special how? I should have paid attention in Components 101."

Rubiksmoose

4:02 PM

It is funny in our current campaign we started in the underdark with nothing. Wanting to cast a spell (i forget which one) we asked if we found any bat guano around. The DM said no bc there aren't any bats in the underdark

SPavel

4:15 PM

Hey Korvin

KorvinStarmast

@SPavel Hello

@Rubiksmoose No bats in the underdark? that almost makes sense, depending on how deep into underdark you go. IIRC< bats live in caves but at some point, depth wise, you don't find that many bats. They seem to live in a transition zone.

@Rubiksmoose It is kind of like finding a lot more fish in the littoral (up to the 200 fathom curve) than in the deep oceans.

SPavel

All the bears eat them

And bears, as we all know, live in caves

KorvinStarmast

@Spavel Hmm, is that why bats learned to hang from the ceiling? To avoid hungry bears?

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose why so? What has you unhappy with that?

@KorvinStarmast it's fair to say they live in caves only in the sense that humans live in houses: with some people as possible exceptions, we cannot live our whole lives in a house.

Bats need insects and plants to forage off, which means they need an outside.

Mike Q

Doesn't the underdark have bugs and edible fungus? If we're talking about a massive cave system, then that seems like a reasonable place to find bats.

Yuuki

4:27 PM

Most cave bats prefer the mouth of the cave rather than the depths.

Granted, the Underdark has much more biodiversity than the average cave depth on Earth.

doppelgreener

It could have cave bats that are perfectly happy in a deep cave network, yeah.

Mike & Yuuki use it's a fantasy game with weird stuff happening already! It's super effective!

Yuuki

Depends on the lighting and whether there are wide open spaces. Flying creatures tend to not do well in narrow confines.

Bats have actually have fairly good eyesight as far as cave dwellers go.

Although given that many cave dwellers are blind, I guess that's not saying much.

Mike Q

Okay, even if bats wouldn't be native to the underdark, maybe it has some underdarkish mutant bats.

SPavel

@MikeQ Desmodu?

Or knowing Lolth, there's some kind of spider bat

Yuuki

Something with more capable claws and/or sturdier bones might adapt well to switching between flying and wall-climbing.

SPavel

4:32 PM

Spider bat with 8 wings

Yuuki

Or gliding and wall-climbing.

Cave squirrels.

SPavel

8-winged cave squirrels

Yuuki

Something with 8 wings feels like it would look less like an animal and more like a throwing star made of wings.

GreySage

@Yuuki Or a centipede

SPavel

@Yuuki That's still better than half of the monster designs in D&D

Although the Roving Mauler's existence is justified by this cartoon - weregeek.com/comics/2012-06-01.jpg

GreySage

4:47 PM

Good news everyone! In the next campaign my playgroup is running I get to be a regular player! This means I actually get to play a character for once!

doppelgreener

@SPavel that's hilarious and adorable

@SPavel it's still a bit pitiable. Doesn't it wish it could have a higher body-having-to-leg-having ratio than 0:5?

SPavel

@doppelgreener Look at its face - it dares wish only for a swift death

doppelgreener

@SPavel as a wizard I would establish a personal campaign goal of turning all roving maulers into ordinary lions

KorvinStarmast

@GreySage That's wonderful. I went through a spell where all I did was DM. Playing is a nice change of pace.

doppelgreener

My wizard would cry whenever they see a roving mauler because it's just so sad

Forthwith, my wizard will establish a wizard ethical committee to prevent mishaps like the creation of the roving mauler, or the owlbear, but that one just because it was all too successful

SPavel

4:53 PM

doppelgreener

@SPavel I feel like I'm being convinced to not have charts

NautArch

@GreySage WHOOP! any ideas on what you'll play?

GreySage

@NautArch That's what I'm looking into right now. I don't think I want a caster, Fighter(Arcane Archer) sounds cool, but I've heard bad things about it. I also just got XgtE, so lots of options in there.

KorvinStarmast

@GreySage FWIW, as I poked through the XGtE, the Barbarian Ancestral Guardian looked sort of neat. Not sure what your preferences are.

@Spavel A chart is a tool to make presentation of information easy and efficient.

It saves on printing costs, by the way.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast OUr DM pitted us against an NPC of that type. Very cool character.

GreySage

5:04 PM

@NautArch They feel very much like a MMO tank, encouraging people to attack them and ignore others

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Ancestral Guardian?

doppelgreener

@GreySage Conga rat ululations!

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast yeah

SPavel

@KorvinStarmast Likewise, a big gun is a tool to make detectiving for a dog easy and efficient

I don't understand why people are thinking that the image suggests the opposite

Yuuki

But can a dog even hold a gun?

SPavel

5:16 PM

Not with that attitude

KorvinStarmast

@Spavel Detective's work mostly on information. Do you actually know any private detectives? I know two. The gun is about the least important part of their professional equipment.

@SPavel My sister in law's husband has been a cop for over 20 years. He spent 11 years as a detective. Never used his gun once.

Yuuki

@KorvinStarmast Something something topical issues

SPavel

@KorvinStarmast Is your sister in law's husband a dog?

KorvinStarmast

@Yuuki Something Something not everything someone thinks is clever is clever.

@SPavel I seem to recall a standard Monty Python line about silly ...

SPavel

@KorvinStarmast Most of their lines are silly

Rubiksmoose

5:43 PM

@doppelgreener Oh I actually agreed with the answer below mine and found it a bit more convincing (and a very well thought out argument). I did edit mine to be a bit less RAW-strict and to focus on the role of the DM in adjudicating these things.

Yuuki

> An elf walks into a bar, thus creating a new sub-race of Bar Elves.

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