Hub of Reason - 2011-01-25

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3:05 PM

0

Q: How to Atheists see the complexity of the human body?

Looking at the mere complexity of the human eye itself I can't help but look at that and say that there's an intelligent creator out there. Can you help me understand an Athiest's perspective on the complexity of the human body and how they can look at the complexity involved and still believe t...

science-and-religion existence-of-god

I am tempted to vote to close it as being too broad.

And also as not making sense. XD

“The idea that humans can just think "I wish I had another arm" enough in their lives and they eventually adapt having another arm doesn't make sense to me.” — WTF?

Is it what they're being spoon-fed now at Sunday school, or is it their own ludicrous kook-a-doodlery?

The asker is also having reading comprehension problems whenever an answer or comment says, “evolution”.

@Borror0 @Josiah @Ustice @EvanCarroll @mfg @Lynne @Cerberus @YasirArsanukaev @Nomæd @RobSchneider @StefanoPalazzo @Ami @Increedable @DmitryDzygin @RexM @ThisIstheId @aaronasterling @jjnguy @Sklivvz whahahhaat?

3:28 PM

@Vitaly, completely agree. That is a science question, not one about atheism.

3:42 PM

It is a science question, but ultimately, that is where theists will try to attack a nontheist view.

It's a common question, and I don't think that it is outside the scope of the site any more than many others that have been voted up.

It's certainly more objective than many of them.

I used to think that we should stick strongly to the no subjective question thing, but I think that limits the scope of the site too much.

Basically without questions like this, I don't think that there is much use to the site.

I'm not sure that's inaccurate..

@Vitaly Clearly, this statement is due to a misunderstanding of how evolution works, but I don't think that the asker can REALLY be faulted for that.

@Vitaly ObdurateDemand even points that out.

I was going to comment

but

@webnet, You're trying to say complexity = design = god. Even if you were given those points, it wouldn't prove any specific god. I think, though, you're confused somewhat. We don't exhibit complexity similar to that of designed things. You can build simple CPUs just by understanding logic gates. It's all abstracted out, built on each other. Our bodies are haphazardly thrown together and arranged. The systems are interdependent, but not in a designed way so much as a theft of usefulness.

just posting it here

because I can see what I want to say, but can't explain it correctly right now

@Ustice Oh yes, they can be, and they should be. We are not living in the Mediæval era, when there was no Internet and no public books.

@Ustice nothing stops the asker from going to Wikipedia and reading a few articles about evolution, apart from the asker themselves.

@Vitaly Okay, point taken, but the thing is that there is a LOT of bad info out there.

3:48 PM

but there's just as much good infor

And we know that human psychology makes it really hard to change your mind, and that you are likely to ignore evidence that would support such a claim.

google.com/…

@Josiah That is what we can provide. Good information.

how difficult was that?

It isn't.

3:49 PM

The human psychology is part of the asker, y'know. So if it's the human psychology that is the culprit, the asker is still at fault.

XPPPP

I think your argument that this may be all our site gets is probably the most compelling for me.

I find it amusing how even LW readers sometimes compartmentalize human psychology and humans themselves—as if humans had souls or something or other.

Of course. I just mean that as long as the asker isn't being an asshole, I think that questions like that should be considered legit.

@Vitaly Nah, I just mean that we are flawed. We have to recognize it in ourselves and fight it, and point it out and forgive it in others.

“If it takes an extensive amount of time for such an evolution to occur, wouldn't there be human skulls without eye sockets on them? – Webnet 3 mins ago”

We're hard-wired to be ignorant bastards, and those that are brought up in a community where questioning your beliefs is discouraged only stregnthenes that.

3:53 PM

Feel free to try and provide good information (which in this case would be synonymous with banging your head against a wall). [follow-up to the quotation of Webnet I have just posted]

@Vitaly sigh Ya. That is just silly.

@Vitaly For what it's worth, I agree. I just don't see any other way for this site to work.

@Vitaly I'm not big on fighting ignorant talking points.

But at least we could point to previous answers to better questions.

did he seriously say that?

@Josiah It's apparently very difficult to follow a link to Wikipedia, because he said it in a comment reply to an answer that linked to the Evolution of the eye article on Wikipedia. Sigh.

lmao

Wait, what?

Where the heck have I “learned” that most mutations are neutral?

“Studies in the fly Drosophila melanogaster suggest that if a mutation changes a protein produced by a gene, this will probably be harmful, with about 70 percent of these mutations having damaging effects, and the remainder being either neutral or weakly beneficial.” — via Wikipedia

Fun stuff.

Yasir Arsanukaev

4:05 PM

@Josiah Thanks for making a comment. I'm having troubles to express my mind :-)

moin chaps

@Yasir, no worries. He's being willfully ignorant.

ello guvnah @YasirArsanukaev

Oh, how do you guys view natural selection?

Yasir Arsanukaev

er I have to google for guv what

My girlfriend views it as a fight for the fittest, while I see it more as animals filling a niche like water fills a cavity.

That is, she views it negatively as things that get beaten, and I view it positively as things that win.

4:08 PM

I view it as a neutral process. The organisms aren't DOING anything.

I agree with Ustice.

It's about the process, not the individual species.

It isn't REALLY even a process.

Not in the sense of "this happens, then this happens, etc."

Phenomena.

I know that you know this, but what I mean is that it is more of just a natural state of things.

Good word.

4:11 PM

Oh, how do you guys view gravity? My girlfriend views it as a fight to stay upright, while I see it more as something that helps hang onto the Earth. That is, she views it negatively, and I view it positively.

Which is more accurate?

@Vitaly Good analogy.

@Josiah which what is more accurate?

I don't think so, because I don't think either explain it in any reasonable sense.

@Ustice Which gravity 'explanation'

I don't consider it as simply as us explaining the same phenomena differently, and assume I'm trying to make it sound sane for Webnet.

If I were talking to someone like that, trying to explain that it isn't a random process.

@Josiah both are more descriptions than explanations.

It IS a random process.

But there is a feedback loop.

it's self-regulating.

Guys... It is a force.

4:14 PM

the mutations may be random, but selection is not

A law.

Just like gravity.

I would propose an experiment for him.

The environment exerts pressures on species.

marbles in a bag.

let's say that marbles with blue in them are better at surviving.

at passing their genes?

4:16 PM

so you pull say 10 marbles, and throw out 4 that don't have blue in them, and 1 that does.

Yasir Arsanukaev

Anyway

user image

hahaha

Yasir Arsanukaev

Just made it.

XD

Yasir Arsanukaev

Substitute Evolution with whatever you want in it (i.imgur.com/rtCT3.png).

4:17 PM

Then you replace those 5 with a color that you randomly select.

do that like 50 times, and see what color your marbles in the bag are.

do it like 1000 times, and look again.

I suppose that there are better experiments, but that shouldn't be too hard.

No, no, no, that would be like playing god! It's a deadly sin! Each marble is equally important and loved! Though, the non-blue marbles are going to be punished by eternity in Hell. There, evolution disproved, therefore, god exists. Bless ya.

It more closely models asexual reproduction, and it doesn't take in constant random mutation, but I think that it would be illustrative.

Can anyone think of a more succinct "game" like that?

I think that the power of simple experiments like that are REALLY persuasive and illuminating.

You can either call the result magic, or you can call it reality.

Do you actually expect them to play a game like that?

Or do you expect them to generalise mentally while imagining a game of that sort?

In either case, you expectations are wrong: they won't bother to play a 50-generation game, and they are unable to generalise when it comes to evolution, or else they wouldn't have needed a game to illustrate the mechanism

4:55 PM

For what it's worth, there are some YouTubbed simulations of evolutionary processes, which hasn't convinced any of the denialists I know

Easy guys. Think up a simple way to do it using a computer, and I'll write a simulation.

It would be a fun project at night.

Simple so that they can understand what happens at every step, and where it could easily be visualized (charts or graphs showing how the population changes)

@Josiah youtube.com/watch?v=SeTssvexa9s The code is publicly available from the description.

5:18 PM

Actually, the link is broken, but oh well.

@Vitaly, I will have to check that out.

I've started thinking of the thought process as I would electricity.

It travels all paths to some extent, but mostly through the path of least resistance.

5:38 PM

Wow! People??! In here!?!

@Borror0 It just took me to show some activity.

Just learned about this from some YouTube video I cannot re-find.

Reptiles evolved cecal valves over just 36 years, impressive!

I've been here the entire time. You fucks are the ones that left me.

Is that the reptiles on an island in the Indian ocean?

No, on an island in the South Adriatic @Borror0

“Have any beneficial mutations been observed that have altered anything in any real undeniable way? No bogus sickle-cell type examples please. – The Preacher 1 min ago”

@Josiah I kept visiting but no one ever talked

5:48 PM

Feel free to point that beep-beep out to the cecal valves. I CBA, because he would invent an ad hoc reply anyway. XP

The smart thing to do would be to link to the Wikipedia page that mentionns observed isntances of volution

Whatever that page is

We've been studying evolution for, what, 150 years?

It's a pretty limited window, in the grand scheme of things. He's also playing the micro/macro card and I don't think it should be allowed.

The cecal valves, however, are a whole organ, like an arm or a leg

Sickle cell is a great example, because it shows the pressures needed to cause mutations to stick.

nice

The micro doesn't imply macro argument? That is SO stupid

5:52 PM

Even though an internal organ, but still

Sorry, I can't follow the video. At work.

Oh. misread.

I linked to an article at ScienceDaily

It's an article.

It's like one of the stupidest arguments in the history of stupidest arguments

And a Wikipedia article:

Italian wall lizard

:Common names:Italian wall lizard, İstanbul lizard The Italian wall lizard or Ruin lizard (Podarcis sicula) is a species of lizard in the Lacertidae family. P. sicula is native to Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, France, Italy, Serbia and Montenegro, Slovenia and Switzerland, but has also been introduced to Spain, Turkey, and the United States. P. sicula belongs to the Lacertidae family of lizards and it is the most abundant lizard species in southern Italy. Its natural habitats are temperate forests, temperate shrubland, Mediterranean-type shrubby vegetation, temperate grassland, rock...

It mentions the cecal valve evolution at the end of the page

5:55 PM

It would be like a deist arguing "Well, I can see macro creation, complexity suggests that god created everything, but micro creation just has no evidence."

except there's proof of evolution..

so maybe not that apt

micro creation?!?!

Hey @Josiah the preacher replied to you but didn't @ you: “And a frog can turn into a prince if you add the magic ingredient: eons of time. Or, was that a kiss? I guess it doesn't matter. Both are a fairy tale. – The Preacher 8 mins ago”

If it made sense, it would be even less apt.

lol

is there a reason to respond to that?

(what's the thread?)

@Vitaly So many possible insults to return to him in that one

0

Q: How do Atheists see the complexity of the human body?

Looking at the mere complexity of the human eye itself I can't help but look at that and say that there's an intelligent creator out there. Can you help me understand an Athiest's perspective on the complexity of the human body and how they can look at the complexity involved and still believe t...

science-and-religion existence-of-god

Just under the original question.

Yeah, there is a reason: for my amusement!

You owe me that little favour because I revived the chatroom, even if only temporarily.

6:00 PM

"“And ThePreacher can turn into someone who isn't a deluded idiot if you add the magic ingredient: eons of time. Or, was that a smack on the head? I guess it doesn't matter. Life's not a fairy tale."

haha

It's sad. He's probably well-meaning but he got had by wishful thinking

I will be right back—reading the new chapter of HP:MoR.

hp:mor?

@Josiah fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/… fantasy done right by Eliezer Yudkowsky

6:08 PM

Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

@Vitaly Lemme know what you think (and I'm impressed you could delay reading it for so long)

lmao

in any event, I replied to him the best way I could think of.

I called him ignorant, or a troll and offered to pay to send him a book about evolution.

It's honestly worth reading

I genuinely would send him the book, though I know he won't accept and wouldn't read it even if I did.

It should be a crime to be that ignorant about evolution, at least if you live in the US

Nah. They should just fine you and send you to rehab.

2

6:13 PM

That's what I meant

Yasir Arsanukaev

Evolution for dummies!

No, for believers.

Actually, being that ignorant about evolution would be horrendous if you lived in the BRIC countries. Being that ignorant about evolution while living in the US is beyond words.

@Borror0 Ah, the poop-throwing chimps. :P

@Vitaly Chimps?

he did turn it down =d

@Josiah: I appreciate your offer, truly. But, when it boils down, you pretty much believe that we evolved from a rock. I cannot accept that, no matter how cleverly it is cloaked in scientific sounding jargon. – The Preacher 5 mins ago

every family tree should start with a rock.

Yasir Arsanukaev

6:20 PM

The-preacher's stereotype is outrageously precise!

In my reply I pointed out that he is the one that actually believes we were made form dirt..

2

@Josiah That is so full of win

Yasir Arsanukaev

Ah, spaghetti and meatballs don't count for him. A shame.

lol

user image

By far still my favorite image of a troll

6:26 PM

lmao

“"I shouldn't have to fight your dark side, I'm just - I'm only -" I'm only twelve” — LOL!!! @Borror0

Yasir Arsanukaev

I think they (believers) just can't adopt the fact we were mean and hairy monkeys in the past (and in fact we still have some animal traits), and this is the main obstactle on the way to understanding evolution.

@Vitaly lol, done?

not yet

@Yasir, it detracts from their 'made in his image' beliefs, so it would be blasphemy. I at least give them that they're sticking to their guns, even if they refuse to see reason.

6:30 PM

@YasirArsanukaev I agree. The unwillingness to accept the truth is the most common obstacle in most divisive debates.

I am trying to watch a video, read an anthropology-related book, read HP:MoR, chat in 2 chatrooms, talk on the phone, and surf the Web simultaneously

so no, I am not done yet

I should add, The Preacher also sort of reminds me of my dad, which is partially why I'm decent to him.

Yasir Arsanukaev

@Borror0 With the exception: most atheists tend to research both sides.

@YasirArsanukaev You think too highly of your group. We're not that smart.

Lots of us have the bonus that we were once them.

6:39 PM

In fact, even in regards to religion where atheists have the most logical position, most of them are poorly uninformed. The most common anti-theist arguments are very painful to read strawmen.

When we get out of religion, atheists are no better or worse than religious people.

Even if they adopt the right position (which they often do, because they're generally more susceptible to the rhetoric of the right position), it often won't be for the right reasons.

@Borror0, I haven't found that to be the case in my experience.

Yasir Arsanukaev

laterz

@yasir, peace.

@Josiah, what is your background? You have a father who is a preacher?

@SpareOom, actually, yeah. He preaches at his church regularly. I think they take rotations, or something.

6:46 PM

@Josiah In what aspect? Religion or the rest?

@Borror0, I don't find their reasoning to be as negative as you do. Most of the atheists I have met have been rational, reasonable people with a desire to learn.

I think the problem is partially that there are a lot of younger atheists, that just haven't had much time to refine their ideas.

@Josiah So presumably you grew up hearing about Christianity. I need to talk to someone who left the faith. I want to know what was the last straw or something.

I'm an apostate, essentially non-denominational fundamentalist.

Did you ever have faith, or just went along with the crowd?

We went to church every sunday.

6:48 PM

But did you just go, or ever actually believe?

I believed. I even had spiritual experiences that probably kept me in the fold longer.

I'm asking because your background sounds the same as mine.

Ok, so help me here, what was the turning point?

When I stopped being Christian, I actually believed that I was going to go back to Christianity once I had researched religion and grown up a bit more.

One thing was I had asked Jesus into my heart a lot when I was younger, and it never felt like it took.

It seemed like I was broken.

Explain that more, please.

And I'm dying to ask if you were in Wisconsin?

Kansas.

6:51 PM

That's where I grew up too!

Every sunday they had a thing where kids would ask Jesus into their heart or whatever, I went through years and years of this and it just never seemed like he was there.

So I would always ask, and always feel like it hadn't worked.

You asked many times?

Obviously, I took it as being my fault.

Yeah, every Sunday.

And did you tell anyone that you didn't feel like it took?

Of course not.

I was shy and still have terrible anxiety. My brain just doesn't allow me to be open under pressure.

6:54 PM

Understood.

@Borror0 done now. EY did an amazing job once again, and HG's thought to turn to QQ somewhat worries me.

If you kept trying to get saved, when did you decide to quit trying?

Sorry if it seems a bit unclear, it's a bit hazy to me. I don't remember things well. I remember more emotions and state of mind. If you put me in that youth worship room, it would be a lot easier.

I didn't. I decided to explore other religions.

Well, not explore, but..

I felt like each religion was equally possible. Each religion has their adherents that claim it works for them. I mentally equated prayer and magic and random mysticism, so I set out to learn about it.

Did you decide that they all are the same?

Eventually I decided they were all bullshit, and none of them had the value I had attributed to all of them.

6:58 PM

I'm still a Christian, but I'm having terrible qualms.

My grandmother asked me one time, when I was a teenager, if I had accepted Jesus into my heart. I took a few seconds too long to answer, and she started shaking me. That didn't help, either. She was the rock of our family, religiously, and it startled me. I never really enjoyed being around her after that.

I probably need to read the book by Templeton, who abandoned the faith, and see what it was that was the final thing for him.

@SpareOom Why qualms?

Also, what part of Kansas?

Suburb of Kansas City. I think it would literally kill my mom, for one thing and the people I grew up with were great. I'm just conflicted.

I ran for state house, and my mom wouldn't vote for me because I'm an atheist. My father handles it pretty well, though.

7:01 PM

I always prided myself that Christianity was a reasonable faith until recently.

You know about Job, who trusted God and then God let him have it as a test?

That's how I feel.

And why did I need to be tested?

Why did Job? He wasn't tested, his life was ruined.

That's what I mean.

I think the answer is very similar to the answer of the meaning of life and the universe.

Of course the given answer is that he got back more than he lost.

There isn't one, it's like asking the color of Tuesday.

7:05 PM

It seems it would be really hard to live without meaning, or perceived meaning in my case maybe.

Does anyone know if there is a website where 5-to-7-or-something-year-old kids share among each other how sad it is that Santa isn't there?

@SpareOom It is. At least a first.

“OH NO! My mommy told me Santa doesn't exist! It ruined my life!”

“Santa doesn't exist? What? The Universe is bad then, there is no meaning!”

@SpareOom, it does feel like a vacuum at first. It was hard for me to come to terms with it, myself.

@Vitaly You're not helping. And being a jerk.

7:07 PM

Sorry, @Borror0 ;)

I think what eventually pushed me was just integrity. It was hard to face life and admit reality was reality, but I had to be honest with myself.

Apparently Vitaly hadn't tried hard to be a Christian. :PPPP

Spare Oom, :PPPPPPPPPP

Then there's the difficulty that my livelihood depends on my being a Christian too.

Oh? Almost two years and you hadn't told me about that.

But maybe we could come up with a solution to that problem. XP

7:13 PM

Did you ask?

lol

point taken

It's also what keeps me being "brainwashed"each week.

@SpareOom You're using that term for us or you mean it?

I'm not actually sure.

However, I do know that I feel differently after church service. Fellowship of the believers is quite effective.

I know that I'm easily swayed - as it's been known to happen in unrelated areas.

Btw, if you want to hear people's deconversion stories, just go to YouTube. There are tons of them.

7:17 PM

Oh!

One issue I might have is that I already don't believe everyone who says they're Christian really is.

Livelihood depends on it?

actually

For deconversions, try this: reddit.com/r/thegreatproject

It's a subreddit that exists solely to collect deconversion stories to publish as a book.

and in re: livelihood

@SpareOom Usually, you can tell by how well they tell the story. If the story isn't highly emotionally charged, it's probably a lie because deconversion rarely is easy.

6

Q: How do you deal with religious observance with family during the holidays

As an atheist whose father is a minister. I find myself going to religious observances every year when I visit my parents as I have put up with this my entire life I do not object. As it is a very sensitive subject how do other deal with the every present nature of belief rituals.

family coming-out

my answer suggests taking the anthropologist's approach, for what it's worth

and if you view it as a “test,” you could still take it—that is, until (and if) you become confident in Christianity again

Oh, but according to what I've been taught, there's no road back.

7:29 PM

Sorry, didn't Job get a road back?

Actually, I've also been taught that I (real Christian) can't lose salvation to begin with.

Job wasn't a Christian.

I, obviously, wasn't a real Christian.

road???

Ah.

That's where Templeton would come in handy. He was well-known (except I hadn't heard of him) and deconverted.

He didn't claim that he hadn't been a real Christian. And when asked, I think I read he said what he missed most about Christianity was Jesus.

If Jesus weren't a best friend to start with, it wouldn't be as hard.

7:32 PM

@Vitaly A good example of that would be William Lane Craig. He said that, even if he was to be transported back in time to witness the resurrection of Jesus and saw it not happen, he would still believe it did.

Because that's what real Christians do.

I am calling Poe's law on that.

LOL! It's William Lane Craig.

Not that he himself believes in that, actually

the dragon claimant makes excuses in advance, and so did Craig

A pretty neat case of belief in belief

Religion is a mega-belief. I can see how that wouldn't sway him.

lesswrong.com/lw/or/joy_in_the_merely_real

Aren't elementary particles wonderful?

7:52 PM

@Vitaly Yo dawg, I put a belief in your belief so you can believe while you believe.

hahaha

See you all later.

@SpareOom, have a good day.

8:12 PM

Drat, I must remember that comments are not for discussion.

@Borror0 Just to let you know, I expected that from you. Thanks for sticking to my expectations. ;P

@Ustice Huh?

@Borror0 atheism.stackexchange.com/questions/2412/… top answer, in the comments.

I know but why do you say that "comments are not for discussion"?

They are not designed for a back and forth. They are meant to comment on the answer, and not refer to other comments. As they get voted up and down, they lose their thread-like quality.

8:25 PM

@Ustice, your comment. Bred, not bread.

doh

I know better than that. Thanks.

np

9:08 PM

@Josiah Your Dad's name wouldn't be Greg, would it?

No, it's not.

9:51 PM

hey the chats active again

10:09 PM

Bye everyone.

@Borror0 do you think HG or someone might side with HP by some rule I might be remembering wrong?

@Borror0 I think it was talking about players switching sides earlier or something

I am failing to generate hypotheses as to where EY is going with HP:MoR

so far, it's 1) HP wins alone 2) someone sides with him 3) the game is abandoned

1 is too dull, 3 is odd given the plot, 2 seems the most plausible of these three

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