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12:04 AM
@TedShifrin nifty
 
Were you thinking it through?
 
Yeah I think I'm starting to get the idea now
Like, if you think of determinants, then having multiple rows kills you
 
Well, I'm talking just $\Lambda^2 V$ for starters as a quotient of $V\otimes V$.
But then go to $3$-vectors.
 
And if you're not over $\mathbb{F}_2$, then that should be equivalent to the fact that swapping pulls up a negative sign, so right now I'm reasonably well-convinced that this is what you do
 
So why is $v\wedge w = - w\wedge v$?
Forget characteristic 2.
 
12:07 AM
Because $(v+w)\wedge (v+w) = 0$
 
Good. OK, now can you see how it works with 3 vectors?
 
Yeah, that works
 
And then with enough wedges it's one dimensional again and that's the determinant
 
Right.
 
Yeah I remember when Ronno told us about the dimension of exterior power, it showed how being alternating, multilinear, and mapping the identity to 1 characterized it completely
 
12:10 AM
for the determinant, yeah
 
And the dimension of the thing is the binomial thingy of the thing with the thing
 
@AkivaWeinberger qed
 
why?
 
Why... does it do so?
 
why binomial thingy?
 
12:12 AM
'Cause for like 3 things the basis is the things of the form $x_i\wedge x_j\wedge x_k$ in increasing order without repeats
 
Well you know that wedges of $dx_i$ form a basis
 
(Note that "$x$" is math shorthand for "thing")
 
Well, no, you have to prove that.
Well, I was discussing general vector spaces here, but the $dx_i$ live in $\Bbb R^{n*}$.
 
Which part, spanning or independence?
Spanning seems easy
 
idk if i like wedges of $dx_{i}$ living in $\Lambda^{n} V$ as opposed to $\Lambda^{n} V^{\ast}$
 
12:15 AM
Distributive property and getting rid of terms where things repeat and ordering things where things don't, throwing in minus signs where needed
 
yeah what Ted said
 
They're fine if $V=\Bbb R^{n*}$ :P
 
sure sure
 
Hmm, for this I think it's probably cleanest to use Alt
 
Independence looks annoying
 
12:16 AM
Alt is working with a subspace, not a quotient, Demonark.
 
Yeah, I was thinking of showing equivalence
 
I guess I want to define a function from $\lambda^nV^?$ to some other space that doesn't vanish on things that shouldn't be zero or something
 
Good, DogAteMy.
So that's why it's in some sense easier to work with dual things to start with.
 
I dunno, define the set of formal sums of $x_i\wedge x_j\wedge x_k$, $i<j<k$, and show that it's isomorphic
or something
 
i don't really like mucking around with m-vectors as opposed to m-covectors
the GMT people do it a lot though
 
12:18 AM
Sometimes both are important. Especially in GMT.
You sniped me!
 
got em lol
 
It's cool to think of oriented parallelepipeds in tangent spaces, etc.
 
yeah that's a nice picture to have in mind
 
Geometric measure theory
 
12:20 AM
Grennitch Mean Time?
 
growls
 
(Weighing sanity over correctness for the spelling there)
 
You mean Greenwich?
Kek
 
Pronounced as it's spelled, of course.
 
They use duality so much defining all these norms
 
12:22 AM
@TedShifrin No it isn't, is it?
 
Well, for the reason that DogAteMy basically bumped right up into.
DogAteMy, you know me well enough to expect occasional sarcasm.
 
sup over forms on m-vector fields on yadda yadda
Oh actually, m-vectors are cool because there's a Gauss-Green type formula that replaces the exterior unit normal with an m-vector field corresponding to the tangent planes
for higher codimension
 
Remember that the usual normal derivative/flux stuff is all about Hodge star anyhow.
 
The Brits have other spelling hits, such as Wuster sauce
 
yeah that's why it all works
 
12:24 AM
(Actually, is that British? Or Massachusetts?)
 
You mean oyster sauce? :P
Worcestershire ... what is y'all's problem here!
 
it's english @Akiva
 
Time for me to haul out GHOTI again.
 
Oh god why though
 
i think there are places where it's actually just called English sauce
 
12:26 AM
Worcestershire is the most nonsense pronunciation...
 
the shire is fine. It's just Worcester is Wooster.
 
it really isn't the most egregious
 
Oh, it's Woostersher sauce, I thought it was just Wooster sauce
 
@Eric I didn't mean "most" literally, just for emphasis
@Ted I'm not fond of the sher vs shire thing either
 
DogAteMy, your culinary education does not live up to your math education :P
 
12:28 AM
@Daminark New Hampshire
@TedShifrin I don't even know what it looks like
 
I mean I don't like that either
 
it's never pronounced shy-er though
so at least it's consistent
blame the french for our written language not being phonetic
 
@EricSilva Unless it's The
 
it's all because of the damn Normans
 
Is that not how it's pronounced in Yorkshire?
I actually said "York - shy-er"
 
12:29 AM
Yorksher
 
Normans I'm tired of your shit
 
Apparently you've never been up norkshire
 
It is York-sher
 
(I know this from too many Tom Scott videos)
 
But yeah "Worcestershire" is the sort of thing I might just pronounce phonetically on principle
Similar to Houston
 
12:31 AM
OK, my roasting chicken needs my attention, and I need to make a few other things ... Bye, all.
 
(All you need to know is he's British and does YouTube)
@Daminark Which one
 
Like I refuse to say "Hee-you-ss-ton"
 
The Street in New York or the city
 
Howston is the street in New York.
 
The Houston in Manhattan is chill, the one in Texas is bullshit
 
12:32 AM
'cause the street (after which SoHo is named) is Howston
("South of Houston")
 
@Akiva to be fair, everything in Tolkien's work in the Shire that's named is not given as its proper name
 
Ironically, even though we were in NY, I didn't know much about Manhattan at the time
 
just an Anglicization of it
 
So I didn't know that street, it's just that my dad had something to do in Houston, I was like 5 or something, and I was like oh, where's that on the map?
 
Oh yeah he did all the conlangz
 
12:33 AM
He showed me and I'm like "You screwed up, this is House-ton"
He's like "No, it's pronounced Heeyousston"
 
Isn't it just Hyooston?
Like hue
but stin
 
And after he showed me that this was how it was pronounced I was like "You know what? I don't care, I'm saying Houston anyway because the other pronunciation is stupid"
 
the name the hobbits would've called the shire was Suza or something
i dont remember exactly, but they spoke Westron
 
@AkivaWeinberger Yeah I mean fair, I'm exaggerating a bit
But yeah that was one of those things no one was able to get out of me
(Axe-ask was hell but my parents successfully drilled that out)
 
tbf Houston is a word that would've been like Hugh's-toun in middle english
so the pronunciation used to make sense
 
12:37 AM
"Asked" is still hard for me to say correctly
I think I normally just make it "assed"
 
another word that became harder
the old english version is way easier to pronounce
 
The secret to consonant clusters that you just kinda get to ignore the middle bits
The secret to accents, in addition to the vowels, might be knowing which sounds you get to slur
I think I've never really said all the vowels in "all right"
or "I dunno"
 
Yeah I say "aight"
 
i say aw right
 
I've been spelling it like "arright"
 
12:42 AM
I rarely pronounce rs
 
^This is true
I forgot about that
(…sorry)
 
I mean okay if they're followed by a followed by a vowel sure
 
1:42 AM
Anybody know how I can find all codewords given a parity check matrix?
 
Can someone help me with this question? Thanks math.stackexchange.com/questions/2379460/…
 
@HusnainRaza lol
 
 
1 hour later…
3:00 AM
Maybe I am being stupid, but I had a question concerning the usual proof in R^n that every derivation of $C^\infty(R^n)$ is a tangent vector (say in Lee's smooth manifolds book, pg. 53).
The problem I have is showing the surjectivity of the map $T_pR^n \to Der$
If d is any derivation, you can plainly find the corresponding tangent vector by evaluating d at the coordinate functions, call them e^i. So v^i = d(e^i), for each n.
Now the problem I have is showing that d = D_{v}, the directional derivative in the direction of v, evaluated at p.
Lee and Tu and most books use Taylor's theorem.
But I thought that since they agree on a basis (e^i) of C^\infty(R^n), then they have to be equal by R-linearity.
What is wrong with thinking this?
 
@anakhronizein If $f=\sum f_i e^i$ then $\Bbb R$-linearity implies $d(f)=\sum d(f_i e^i)$, but how do you intend to go from $d(f_i e^i)$ to $(\partial f_i/\partial x_i)d(e^i)$?
 
Oh I see my issue then
R linear, not C^infty(M) linear
 
yeah
 
Thanks!
 
3:41 AM
Can someone help me with this question? Thanks math.stackexchange.com/questions/2343643/…
 
 
2 hours later…
6:05 AM
@Daminark I got disconnected yesterday. That does make sense.
 
Aight, nifty @Balarka
So I've got my workshop over the next two days, I'm gonna pack now and if I will be substituting sleep with caffeine I will let you know and we will continue
 
lol
 
Otherwise I may or may not be able to talk much until Friday night here (Saturday morning for you)
 
Do you have any particular textbook or the sort to suggest?
I have a small book by Simmons that has a little functional analysis in it for one
(consequently that's where I learnt topology)
 
So, for a functional analysis first approach I had used Kolmogorov & Fomin
Elements of the Theory of Functions and Functional Analysis
 
6:18 AM
Aha, ok
 
(There's another translation by Silverman titled Introductory Real Analysis, but that's reordered in a weird way so I dunno)
The advantage is that it won't assume you know about the Lebesgue integral, at least for Banach stuff
 
coolio
vol 1 has a lot of stuff, known and unknown to me. what do you suggest should my study path be?
 
If you want to pick up some measure theory, look up Rudin Real and Functional Analysis, or for perhaps a faster treatment look up Bass Real Analysis for Graduate Students
For a way quicker one check the notes I sent
If you do Kolmogorov, make sure you know what's up in the chapter on topology but you'll prob have that down
Chapter 3 is the main one to focus on
 
Gotcha
Oh, yeah, the notes. Do I have those?
 
Should be, check DC
 
6:23 AM
almost forgot that nickname. looking at Washington
 
For a ridiculously abridged treatment which is handwavy I can do it in 5 minutes
(It = measure theory)
Hey @Alessandro
(Also by handwavy I mean I won't prove much, it'll be more terms than anything, and only to get you to know what the Lebesgue integral is)
 
Measure theory? Balarka don't join the dark side, don't become an analyst!
 
The idea is that you define a $\sigma$-algebra on a set to be a collection of subsets closed under complement and countable union
 
I "know" what a Lebesgue integral is, but let's hear your treatment
@Alessandro It seems I am forced to learn some to understand a lot of nontrivial topology
 
6:26 AM
A measure space is a trio $(X,\Sigma,\mu)$ where $X$ is a set, $\Sigma$ is a $\sigma$-algebra, and $\mu$ is a countably additive map from $\Sigma$ to $[0,\infty]$ such that $\mu(\emptyset) = 0$
 
It's a probability space if $\mu(X) = 1$, I think?
Just to recall defns
 
@BalarkaSen I was joking, measure theory is cool
@BalarkaSen yes
 
Yeah @Balarka
Sniped
 
lel
 
Now, in $\mathbb{R}^n$, you want to start with finite unions of boxes and the volume you expect, but that doesn't form a $\sigma$-algebra. There's this neat little theorem called Caratheodory extension which allows you to build a measure out of this
That's the Lebesgue measure
 
6:28 AM
Yeah
 
That's because if you have a random variable $X$ you can form a measure from it as $\mu(A)=\Bbb P(X\in A)$
 
Nifty thing to note about it is that it's a Radon measure. Measure is the sup over compact subsets, inf over open supersets, and every Borel set is measurable (converse does not hold, there are only $\aleph_1$ Borel sets and $\aleph_2$ measurable sets).
In particular, every measurable set is a $G_{\delta}$ set minus a null set
Just take that
 
Aha, right
 
Now, let's say we have a measure space $X$
 
(He means $2^{\aleph_0}$ and $2^{2^{\aleph_0}}$ for people who don't assume GCH everywhere)
 
6:32 AM
We say a function $f:X\to\mathbb{R}$ is measurable if the preimage of a Borel set is measurable (equivalently, preimage of a half line)
 
Hey @Alessandro , is the following the correct in the nutshell understanding of bayanesian vs frequentist?

Frequentist knows the probability distributions of all events they are interested in, and that repeated experiments should corresponds to said probability distributions. Meanwhile Bayesianist don't know or don't have the probability distribution of all events they are interested in. They first assign a prior probaility to some given question, and then each trial of an experiment or other incoming evidences will serve to update the probability distribution,
 
I assume GCH everywhere
you set theorist
@Daminark Yup
 
oops I think I tag the worng person...
 
Now, define a simple function to be a linear combination of characteristic functions of measurable sets
 
@Secret I don't know anything about bayesian probability so I'm not really qualified to comment
 
6:33 AM
It's ok, I mixed up arctic tern and your expertise again...
 
So $f = \sum a_i\chi(A_i)$
 
mhm
so this is just a step function over $A_i$'s
 
Unless someone's fucking with you, $\int_X fd\mu = \sum a_i\mu(A_i)$
Like if you try to define something else you're being a fuck
 
lol
looks like a Riemann integral to me bro
 
Don't you need to be careful about negative $a_i$ here?
 
6:36 AM
Finite linear combinations, no need to worry now
 
Oh, ok, that's fine
 
And @Balarka we've already dropped from Riemann, this allows us to talk about the characteristic function of the rationals
Plus we can integrate on other spaces
For which Riemann makes no sense
 
I mean the basic idea is still like that isn't it? for general $f$ you're going to define upper/lower Riemann sum over a partition using what you just said right now. just you're using $\chi$ of really strange subsets than just intervals
 
But yeah so, a function is measurable iff it's the pointwise limit of simple functions (this is the idea of Lebesgue sums, you're kinda partitioning the range instead of the domain of a function)
So for a non-negative function $f$, you have $\int_X fd\mu = \sup_{g\le f} \int_X gd\mu$ where $g$ is simple
 
6:41 AM
And for a general measurable function $f$, we let $f^+$ be $f$ when it's positive and otherwise $0$, and analogously for $f^-$
Then $\int_X fd\mu = \int_X f^+d\mu + \int_X f^- d\mu$
However, we must put a restriction that one of those terms must be finite
 
Now, we have the $L^p$ spaces
We define $L^p(X,\mu) = \{f : \int_X |f|^pd\mu < \infty\}$
 
Right
 
Except I lied to you right there
 
This is Banach, right?
 
6:44 AM
There's a technical point to worry about
 
uh
Well, did you mean |f|^p
 
Well I still lied
See, normally we want to define $\|f\| = (\int_X |f|^pd\mu)^{\frac{1}{p}}$, yeah?
 
mhm
 
Except that's like not a norm, imagine a function which is $0$ almost everywhere
 
oh i see
 
6:46 AM
Get fuck'd m8 gg rest in rip measure theory you will be missed
BUT WHAT IF MEASURE THEORY WAS NOT KILL
We mod out by saying that $f \sim g$ if $f-g$ is 0 ae
 
@Daminark sorry to nitpick, is thay $f\le g$ almost everywhere or there's an actual inequality?
 
So then $L^p$ is that mod the equivalence relation
 
Ah of course
 
@AlessandroCodenotti I think you can define it either way, I take it to be legit inequality
 
So ||f|| = 0 means f = 0 ae?
doesn't sound obvious to me
 
6:48 AM
Assume $f\ne 0$ ae
 
I'm not convinced, take as $f$ the indicator function of the irrationals on $[0,1]$, there is no positive simple function with $g\le f$ apart from the one which is always $0$
 
@AlessandroCodenotti The irrationals on $[0,1]$ are a measurable set, take any measurable subset and its indicator function will be $\le f$
I mean $f$ itself is a simple function here so it's defined directly anyway
 
Ah, wait, you're doing linear combinations of indicator functions of measurable sets
 
Yeah
 
We built everything out of simple functions as combinations of characteristic functions of intervals
Nevermind then
 
6:51 AM
Yeah measurable sets makes your life easier I think
@Balarka so assume $f\ne 0$ on a set of positive measure, so take $|f|$
 
@Daminark I see now. The integral is forced to be > 0
I need time to get comfy with Lebesgue integral though
 
Yeah, to get that down perfectly I think you'll need some statement about measurable functions being nearly continuous
 
If you want to be even more convinced about AC, @Dami, it is consistent with ZF that all subsets of $\Bbb R$ are Lebesgue measurable
 
Yeah it requires Lusin to be totally rigorous
Lusin is as follows
 
It kinda sucks that there's too many books on analysis and not many which is great
 
6:54 AM
Let $X$ be, say a Radon measure space
$Y$ is second countable (Borel measure), and $f:X\to Y$ is measurable
(Or in the particular case we care about, $\mathbb{R}$ with Borel sets)
 
@Daminark what happens if both terms are allowed to be infinite, do we need more careful limit treatments?
 
If $A\subset X$ has finite measure, then for any $\epsilon$, there's some set $E$ such that $\mu(A\setminus E) < \epsilon$ and $f\restriction_E$ is continuous
 
I see
 
So if you know this, let $f$ be non-zero on $A$ with positive measure. I can find a subset $E$ with positive measure such that $f$ is continuous on it and positive, take a compact subset $F$ of positive measure, find the minimum of $f$ on it, your integral is at least $\mu(F)\min_{x\in F} f(x)$
 
2
Q: Value of tan2°(Without using calculator)

AneekYesterday my sir asked us a question:"How can you find the value of tan2° without using the calculator? " I asked, whether he is asking the formula of tan 2A or something, but he said no its tan 2°. I tried my head out in every possible way even tried out the approximation method of differentiati...

 
6:59 AM
(I actually just came up with this on the spot since our professor didn't really deal with this point whatsoever, she just said "take the set of functions whose absolute pth power has finite integral")
 
How is 2 degrees in the answer = $2\pi/180$ One measure in radian, another in degrees... that's not possible
 
@Secret so your issue immediately is $\infty - \infty$ being not well-defined
3
You might be able to pull something off analogous to the improper Riemann integral
 
Yeah, I was thinking about limits, since they are so good at dealing with indeterminate forms
but I suspect it might be tricky here since $f^+$ and $f^-$ are part of the same measurable function $f$ so their relative growth or something might be less obvious
 
Oh wait no it's legit impossible to pull this off
Your issue is that the way you sorta go to infinity messes you up here
Like, let $f(x) = x$ on $\mathbb{R}$
If you try to integrate it over all of $\mathbb{R}$, you get one answer by going $[-R,R]$ and blowing that up
You get another if you try to send positive $R$ up, then $-R$, and reverse
Now, in the case of $f:\mathbb{R}\to\mathbb{R}$ there's a canonical way by choosing $[-R,R]$ and letting $R\to\infty$
But on general measure spaces I don't think there's any canonical thing going on
If it's not Radon you're mega screwed if this behavior comes up
But yeah @Balarka
 
I see, hmm, so it seems these cases, the integration becomes "path dependent" since how you reach infinity for the positive and negative portions of the function will affect the answer
 
7:07 AM
So the nifty thing about the Lebesgue integral is that it gets you some dank theorems
So if you remember with Riemann integration you needed uniformity to swap integrals and limits
Well that's a bit harsh
Except with the Lebesgue integral you can relax things
 
::Jots into notebook for Integral Project: Explore the path dependance behaviour in 1D Lesbegue integrals and the topology of this "pseudo 1D space"::
Interesting how unbound function values can lead to path dependence like behaviour in essentially 1D systems...
 
So let's say $f_k$ is increasing and converges pointwise to $f$
(Measurable blah blah)
Then $\int f_k \to \int f$
That's called the monotone convergence theorem
 
cool
so you don't need uniformity and shit
 
Even niftier
Okay so wait the next theorem will sound like a generalization of this so disclaimer: monotone convergence theorem allows infinite stuff
Now
Assume $|f_k| \le g$ where $g\in L^1$
If $f_k\to f$ pointwise
Then $\int f_k \to \int f$
(Maybe even just a.e. convergence? Idk)
 
Hmm, I wonder if I can apply the monotone convergence theorem for any measurable function $f$ by slicing up $f$ such that each segment is monotone and bounded, i.e.:

$$\int f_k = \int f_{k1}+\int f_{k2}+\int f_{k3} \rightarrow \int f_{1}+\int f_{2}+\int f_{3} = \int f$$?
 
7:20 AM
Counterexample: let's say your graph is a triangle
With area 1
So $f=0$ on the negative reals, then go linearly to $1$ on $[0,1]$, go back down on $[1,2]$, and then be $0$ forever
Now, squish $[0,2]$ to $[0,1]$ but double the height, let that be $f_2$
Keep going
$\int f_k = 1$ for all $k$
But $f_k \to 0$ pointwise
(I'm assuming that by "to any measurable function" you meant like, removing the assumption of monotonicity)
 
indeed, e.g. $y=x^3$. Ah ok, so the sequence of $f_k$ converged to some measure zero set thus it is screwed
 
@Daminark that statement strongly reminds of the delta distribution in physics, because as $k \to \infty$ the thing get infinitely high to maintain the same area
 
I imagine (@Alessandro call me out if this is aggressive bullshit) that you could probably think of it as a delta distribution on the hyperreals
Though I really dunno how this would be executed, if at all
 
I know nothing about the hyperreals :P
 
7:28 AM
I also don't know anything serious about distributions, delta stuff, or hyperreals, so really that was just a mashup of words that is either insightful or just cool
 
So I am guessing, lesbegue integral might tend to give unexpected behaviour if some of the sets are measure zero sets, but that's a really overgeneralised wild guess
 
(Correction: I don't know anything about...)
@Secret so you can change a function on a measure zero set and the integral is completely insensitive to it
 
yup
 
That'd follow from linearity and the fact that if $g=0$ ae, then $\int g = 0$, so you just subtract it off
Now, I also don't know shit about Fourier analysis
But like, so apparently you usually think about Fourier in $L^2$ theory
If you sorta think about periodic functions, then renormalize and look at $\mathbb{R}/\mathbb{Z} = S^1$, thereby you can kinda think about it as a function on the circle (use exponential I guess to do it smoothly)
And that $e^{inx}$ stuff in Fourier series is basically a statement that those functions form an orthonormal Schauder basis for $L^2(S^1)$
Now, the problem with it is that you don't think of the limit as taking on definite values at all
But apparently pointwise convergence of Fourier stuff is like, really hard
Anyway the more I rattle off the higher the chance I'll say something really stupid so I'll hold back for now
 
RE: My previous question about vector space basis which alessandro answered: I see, The extra structure we need is some notion of convergence for the infinite expansion
 
7:37 AM
@Balarka but yeah so, note that the $\ell^p$ spaces we previously had as our toy example are just a special case of this
Let $\mathbb{N}$ have the counting measure
 
yup
cool!
 
Then $L^p(\mathbb{N}) = \ell^p$
(Also $\mathbb{Z}$, you can think about two-sided stuff)
@Secret Schauder bases are nifty
 
1
Q: Problem in finding the maximum value of $tan^2(\theta-\phi)$

AbcdIf $\tan\theta$ = $n\tan\phi$,then what is the maximum value of $tan^2(\theta-\phi)$? My attempt: First I tried to reach $tan^2(\theta-\phi)$ using the given condition, but couldn't. Next, I used the property that $AM>=GM$ to reach: $\dfrac{\sin^4(\theta-\phi)+\sec^4(\theta-\phi)}2 $ >= $\...

 
@Abcd one radian is $\frac{\pi}{180}$ degrees
 
Here's an exercise: prove that Banach spaces with Schauder bases are separable, and thus that $\ell^{\infty}$ doesn't have one
 
7:46 AM
We all know that if a ring with unity is of characteristic p then it will contain Z_p as a subring but if the ring is without unity then how can we show it?
It's also commutative
 
My concern is that if a subring of a ring is unital, shouldn't the whole ring be?
Actually Google tells me that's not true
@mathiu_lady conjecture
So I think that a subring of a ring has a characteristic which divides that of the whole ring
But if $p$ is prime, the only option is to also have characteristic $p$
(Aside from the trivial ring)
So, a ring $R$ of characteristic $p$ contains $\mathbb{Z}_p$ as a subring if and only if it contains a non-trivial unital subring
 
@mathiu_lady how do you define the characteristic of a ring without unity?
 
But it's my assignment problem , may be the word 'unity' has been omitted by sir
 
@AlessandroCodenotti Bamboozled again
 
@AlessandroCodenotti the definition of characteristic does not need unity
 
7:58 AM
the one I'm familiar with does need it, that's why I'm asking
 
Oh wait maybe just take any $a$
So ask for the smallest $n$ such that $a + \ldots + a \ne 0$
 
@Daminark yeah
 

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