I am guessing that this question really did just get downvotes from real people, and not some concerted effort.

And even though the downvotes are inappropriate in the sense that the question was perfectly valid (in my opinion), I don't think there is any sensible way to disallow these downvotes.

I disagree but it's a private disagreement

The speed with which they were affected and the number presented with absolutely no comments makes me say that

Granted, I'm not a regular in this community, so I can't say for sure

but I appealed to Jeff and Robert and was shot down twice, so at this point it's moot

;)

Whoa, looks like I have missed all the "fun". Just done reading the meta posts and all the comments here and elsewhere, oh boy.

That being said, I agree with @Kosmonaut. I don't think there's anything fishy here. Just looks like a few people got genuinely offended.

@drachenstern: posts that get featured in the StackExchange™ MultiCollider SuperDropdown™ are known to attract a metric ton of votes within minutes. The timeline for the question lists 110 votes yesterday: 65 up, 35 down. That's a lot, but it doesn't look like a concerted effort at downvoting to me. There is no clear pattern, see for yourself: english.stackexchange.com/posts/9293/timeline

Also, 3 out of the 11 downvotes on the question itself are due to flags. As the flags age away, so will the downvotes.

I have a question regarding the slang questions

I'm new here, but it's not clear from meta whether there is an official policy on editing titles to remove possibly offensive terms

(I myself would argue that offensive is in the eye of the beholder, but... I don't consider that this is a fight I want to pick!)

RegDwight: ping, because you are the one who edited the title in the case that triggered my question, so I'd love to hear where this information can be found

OK, RegDwight replied below the question: "I don't think there's any consensus just yet, and personally, I am perfectly fine with leaving the original wording. However, when I see two offensive flags within 15 minutes, I feel like I should do something, especially if it's six o'clock in the morning where most of our mods come from."

thanks!

@FX you have to use the @ to signal someone's attention, just using their name doesn't work.

@RegDwight I realize that it's going to offend people, but I have a problem with massive downvoting on good answers based on "oh my I didn't want to read that". Had even ONE downvoter left a reason why they downvoted it, I would've been more ok with the situation as it was. I just have a hard time abiding by "oh I don't want to see those words" as a reason to downvote. This ain't my grandmother's church, this is more like academia.

However, having said that, I also didn't realize about the timeline, still parsing it and chatting with a few others this am

P.S.: Heh, I can't add 65 and 35, how embarrassing is that.

lol, I come up to 100 :\

Thanks, expanding those links now

So I'll buy that for most circumstances. It was the disproportionate number of downvotes that I didn't care for. I am curious now how often questions occur that have ~50% as many downvotes as they do upvotes, in toto (meaning all answers and questions)

But I also know that the day is done, people won't be more civil when they're on the internet, and it's time to move on, yeah? ;)

Hey have you guys heard about the SEChat userscripts? They add a little extra oomph to the chat, as it were.

@drachenstern: the point to keep in mind is that (most of) those downvotes came from passers-by, from people outside the community. So I don't think I share the concern you have voiced in a comment on meta, "that the community has no idea what is acceptable, which is another outrage".

@RegDwight Yeah, I thought I removed that :\

for exactly the reason you mention, outside voters

As to controversial questions, there doesn't seem to be a DataExplorer query for "in toto", but here is one for individual posts, which is a good start: data.stackexchange.com/english/s/87/…

Note that the dump is two weeks old or so, so it doesn't include the boobies question. We'll have to wait for the next update around February 10th.

@RegDwight yeah, I know ... I follow the dump on SO

looking to see how unsung I am

but then I answer questions well and get upvotes and that kills that ;)

Hehe. Even "Tumbleweed" is extremely hard to get on this particular site. And don't even mention "Unsung" (or most gold badges, for that matter).

Oh I want unsung on SO ...

Not that that's a bad thing.

I managed to get Tenacious

:D

Well, SO is a different beast altogether.

I know ... during the day a question will be off the radar in five minutes

that's why I adore the chats

when I have a real question I can pop in there and get answers pronto, even without a question

but if it's detailed (more than "what's the name of that type of function where you do XYZ") then I usually post a question and link to it

Interesting. I don't think I've ever been to the SO chat, actually. Just killed a few minutes here and there on the MSO one.

I'm working on S&W on SO atm too, and the Sportsmanship and Copy Editor ..

Yeah, I would really only recommend MSO to anyone with more than about 5k across the sites

SO is good for solving problems, MSO or SE are good for chatting and solving problems.

I will, however, refer people to SO chat on a question, to give them faster results

I'm just wondering to what extent that's okay with the powers that be.

What's that? referring someone to chat for resolving an issue?

Yeah.

So long as you have good followup on the question (such as providing answers and closing) they are ok with it.

I'm pretty sure that since Jeff has bumped into me on dba.SE, E.SE, twitter, chat.MSO and several other places, that he has learned to recognize my name/avatar. If I was pissing him off I think he would mention it.

Apparently my name and avatar are recognizable enough that I've been called out as "being everywhere" when I just go where my interests are.

By staff no less.

He sleeps. I'm pretty sure during the day, cos he's always posting at night.

But that's rather my point, is that I'm on a lot of the sites and like to play on the metas, so I bump into him alot (or what seems to be to be a lot).

So since this is the internet and you can't assume anything, have you seen the blog entry for Hyperbole and a Half for ALOT?

Aha! The plot thickens. I'm in Europe, so his night is my day.

@RegDwight yeah, I think he sleeps roughly between 3am your time to about noonish, but I don't exactly have his schedule, of course ;)

@drachenstern OK, thanks, I am only now discovering how to use this chat properly

@RegDwight Good, I'm glad that it's been passed around ;)

@FX_ Yay. Glad to hear it

There's a readme as well

Cool, I'll give it a try some time. Rchern can do no wrong.

lol, indeed.

Well, I manage to use the major browser that's not listed :)

unlucky me

@FX_ lol, opera?

It may support userscripts, I have no idea

@drachenstern wouldn't list it as "major" :)

Safari

@FX_ oh, I think that supports them too, I'll double check

probably something can be done, like installing a plug-in that can handle scripts

idk, hang tight

we're discussing briefly on MSO

Might need to dip into apple.SE apparently... brb

(love it when you say “hang tight”, it feels like an earthquake is coming my way)

lol

So apparently you'll just need to install GreaseMonkey for Safari, then you can use the userscript ...

many thanks for the info, I'll try it

Yeppers. Also I was told that I gave the wrong URL :\

rchern.github.com/StackExchangeScripts would be the place to install from because it's a more userfriendly landing page

Hey folks.

Hola Kosmo

We are having a bit of a censorship crisis on EL&U.

@Kosmonaut crisis is strong a word

Are we? Howso? Surely not my little intrusion yet again?

are you talking about the title editing?

Well, that is one thing.

I find it silly, but surely this can be discussed and agreed upon (if not done already)

There are several issues.

I mean, for one thing, "suck it up ho" is not even an expression.

The question is really poor in quality.

I am worried about this place becoming Urban Dictionary.

I concur on that sentiment Kosmo.

That crossed my mind. I wasn't sure if the OP was exploiting the whole situation.

agreed

I might have closed the question in a world where I didn't have to worry about people viewing it as censorship.

And then, there is no way to keep things automatically off the front page. That is my main concern.

On Wikipedia, they have all sorts of taboo topics. But do they put it on the Featured Items section on the front page?

That is why I viewed the title editing as a compromise.

The nice thing about the "tits" and "boobs" question is that I can say "slang term for breasts" and it is pretty clear what the content is.

Proposal: (needs work) A question regarding the usage or origin of slang may be considered acceptable if there is a prevailing or demonstrable requirement to define the slang or to provide it's origin. In the case of trying to understand a local colloquialism (the use of slang), usage of the original statement, including contextual clues from the surrounding conversation, should be given (cited?) in the question. Failing to do so would deem the question unanswerable, and subject to be closed.

I like the direction that takes.

I've only been here for a few days, so I have little to say

Mmm, okay, so is this or is it not a software problem after all?

Then when someone says "what does it mean 'slap a bitch ass ho down'?" and provides no more clues, then it becomes urban dictionary

@RegDwight nah, this is a people problem. a psychology problem.

but I think there's also some question about research: if the question can be answered reasonably by quoting from any dictionary, then maybe it doesn't belong here

@FX_ nonsense, you're participating, you're in the chat, you're on the page, you're on meta, you get a say. That's the intent of the SE communities

@FX_ that doesn't handle the cases of etymology

@drachenstern it's not a sufficient rule, but I think it's part of it

I think sometimes a question about "what is the difference between this and that" can be useful for a non-native speaker

Sometimes it is hard to tell just from the dictionary.

Fair, but does that rule pertain to slang? Often slang won't be found in a dictionary, being based on semantic clues and colloquialisms

the tits and boos question is nice, because it asks about two things that are hard to gauge from a dictionary: how colloquial is it? and what's the fine difference in what it describes (breasts/niples)?

I believe that "What's the difference between this and that" needs a format to fit under, but that it would be fine in the general sense.

@FX_ and a dictionary doesn't provide the societal clues "don't mention either in polite/mixed company"

@drachenstern exactly

@Kosmonaut are we beginning to unravel the crisis of censorship?

Here's my other question, since you guys know the site better than I:

Somewhat.

How many regular users of E.SE are active meta.E.SE users as well, and will abide by the "by laws determined by the users of meta.E.SE"? Or are the general users of E.SE an unruly mob (as I've been rebuked already once by @RegDwight for alledging ;) )

I am not sure how many could be considered "regulars" in the meta site.

So I see that there are 21 pages of meta.E.SE users, and 104 pages of E.SE users

But only the first dozen pages of meta.E.SE show more than a 101, meaning only about a 12*35 are really eminently active in any sense, out of 104*35

That implies to me that 1 in 9 are passerby, by and large

I'm obviously not a regular member of the community, so I don't know

I would guess that you aren't far off.

That is one problem with figuring out a consensus about a thing like this.

@Kosmonaut that's why I'm trying to narrow it down.

You've got like 30 users who will really want to make a difference, and 3000 who are just along for the ride.

But, even the "boobs' question was actually deleted for 45 minutes.

So, I take it that as far as the higher-ups at stackexchange go, this is pushing the limits.

They just wanted to make sure that the site doesn't devolve into Urban Dictionary

I'm still not quite sure how much of the "crisis" is a community failure, and how much of it is a software failure. If we don't want certain questions to be widely advertised, we can certainly raise the concern on MSO and get the software changed accordingly. I don't think that our community, as a whole, is rapidly deteriorating.

Had the page turned into a lot of pictures of boobs, then it would've gotten the axe right away

No, I don't think the community is deteriorating.

I'm not trying to insinuate that

I'm trying to insinuate that you likely have users on the site that would be willing to close a question or flag it, that have no idea what happens on meta

And I don't think you can get the software changed to prevent the users from flagging things they find morally objectionable (like the use of the word tit)

As to deletion, my understanding is that the question reached 6 flags and got deleted automatically, though Robert wasn't extremely clear about that.

That they get in such a tittle about the word tit titillates me

@RegDwight I think he said that they pulled it after two or three to mull it over internally at SOIS

but I agree he wasn't extremely clear

@drachenstern: I think you are right

So @RegDwight that's the second or third time that you have said something about a software change. One of our key tenants in the software world is that you can't use technology to enforce good behavior. So how would you use software to rectify this, you being in a different vantage point than myself and my not seeing the forest for the trees?

Oh well, even so, that's their fair right I guess.

I do want to see the forest, if I'm not just standing in a copse, but from where I stand I'm merely in a copse, and no such forest exists.

I think what RegDwight means is having some way to keep this kind of stuff off the front page by default, maybe?

So that requires two or three things:

It requires a mandatory tag for "potentially offensive"

Front page? I dunno, maybe. Not sure. MultiCollider? Certainly.

Yes.

It requires a way to prevent or reverse some votes or flags after a mod applies such a tag

It requires that the tag be a mod tag

@RegDwight can't be done. That was because so many people voted/answered/viewed the question so quickly. If you can define a way to prevent unsafe from appearing on the front page, maybe so

Now, here's the rub

I personally want to see these potentially offensive questions because there's a reason they're being asked.

So do I.

I don't want them to shut down Poison Control just in the hopes that not having it means kids won't eat the stuff.

I am interested in all the parts of language, including taboo speech.

@Kosmonaut Indeed. That's my stance too.

I would never want to censor the question itself, nor delete it based on it only being taboo.

So then how do we have a tag for "taboo topics" that people can view but that won't make it onto the frontpage?

Keep in mind that after I answered (making it in my estimation a valid and academic question) I posted it to my twitter and facebook and shared it with the MSO crowd. I thought it was a good question.

So already it attracted more pageviews by the virtue of a few of us doing that, even if it hadn't been on the frontpage

Yeah, the thing is, if it is not on the main page, people will miss it who might be interested.

(I also cc'd @codinghorror when I tweeted it)

And you can't stop it from going on the multicollider on account of that's automated on the views/votes/answers

Unless there were a "NSFW" tag (or whatever you call it), with functionality that keeps it out of the multicollider.

That's the only thing I can think of

Not that that is necessarily feasible.

@drachenstern: What do you mean: can't be done? If the people using the MultiCollider are known to not like the word "boobs", then the MultiCollider should simply ignore all questions with that word in the title.

a "think of the children" tag... altho the whole point over on MSO was that boobs may or may not be an acceptable word for children (the main opponent being a young Jewish man of 21ish age, with no children, worried that it being on his screen at work would brand him a certain way)

Why do we need a tag? Why can't the software filter for words?

@RegDwight but why are the people using it known to not like that word?

@RegDwight "What's the origin of the term boob-tube?"

"Why are clowns also referred to as rubes or boobs?"

Those have nothing to do with breasts

it was the connotation of breasts from the inclusion of the word tit that made it untenable to people

And they were of a severely narrow mindset to think that breasts were offensive in written speech on a site dedicated to studying that language

So that's why I stand against filtering on words alone

I just wish that people weren't so annoyed at the sanitization of the title.

I understand and appreciate your argument, and see your intent, but I can't abide by it personally. It is, after all, a subjective debate.

Sanitizing the title so that people have a good idea of what is inside seems like the best compromise.

@Kosmonaut I thought the sanitization kept it academic.

You see "slang terms for breasts", you know what's in there and have no right to be offended if you click.

Oh rats, I have to rush home. See you later, guys.

Okay, see you later.

I would change the title for "suck it up ho" to be more clear about the content.

@RegDwight Ok

@Kosmonaut I would personally close it as NARQ

Well, I would — I am just worried it is a lightning rod for controversy if I do that.

Not a single person has voted to close either.

Alright guys, I need to get to work, I've been here for two hours and nothing accomplished as of yet (altho I know the solution to the problem I went home on last night ;) )

@Kosmonaut until you post something on MSO and get community consent that will remain the case.

I wonder ... brb

ok :)

So NaRQ should cover it, with a comment to link back to the meta discussion saying "please follow the community guidelines"

A VtC reason could be invented but I have a feeling SOIS would rally against a specific "you didn't provide the contextual clues to make this an appropriate question" over the reasons given in NARQ

I just read your avatar for the first time, that's cute

mosheberman.com/wordpress/?p=284 < Installing GreaseMonkey scripts in Safari

Haha, yes I like the picture.

So, not to be a bore, but I've got to go do my day job and get a paycheck ;) ~ I'll have the window open so if you want my attention, hit me with an @drachenstern

Sounds fine. I need to get to work myself :)

@Kosmonaut if you post that for discussion on meta.ESE lemme know and I'll come over and upvote it, cos I think it's a valid discussion point

Well, there is this question:

Ok, I'll go post my proposal on to that as an answer

I am posting a response there as well.

@Kosmonaut added, altho maybe not the exact place for my answer, but we shall see.

Thanks.

Ok, off to working