Computer Science - 2016-12-23

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12:08 AM

@Evil think the current answer is halfway )( decent at least, you admit it yourself. if you want, ask me direct/ intelligent question(s) about it (eg wrt apparent gap(s)) without complaint & will clarify answer with more elaboration (the "between the lines" stuff)... & then you can modify it with everything you figure out

@Evil was thinking about it based on your response, did not promise. was looking for signs of more than idle curosity on your part. your style (not unlike DWs) sometimes reminds me of a fresh 13yr old around here... aka teenager

12:30 AM

@vzn it was about the previous one, this one misses the main point, I do not know how to make it more intelligent or reasonable. I am not complaining.

@vzn and you ask for intelligent question?

@Evil lol you said it was "profound". did you chg your mind again already? :P en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insult#Backhanded_compliments ← similar to complaints

1:12 AM

@vzn no I did not.

@vzn and I honestly do not get what exactly is your problem. I would like to get answer to that question, but I am not emotionally attached to it. But you ask me to retract my point "the main part is missing", so you poke around giving irrelevant and overshot conjectures (the most are obviously not even close, some may be valid, but this is not relevant to the point of your ideas).

@vzn and according to the link you gave from Wikipedia, what you implied is a stellar example of an insult, which does not bother me, but this for sure does not count as the intelligent concersation.

1:50 AM

@whatwhatwhat the previous conversations about A.I. where more concerned about the hardware, mimicing the human brain, some indicators of the current research about the Neural Network capable of passing 4y.o. intelligence tests (whatever that means).

@whatwhatwhat there were topics about self-organization of the learning or the consciousness, so your topic is a bit different, but my questions still stay, if you care about them, this may be problematic, otherwise this is a totally different level and probably some of the problems are due to the expansion of this entity.

As it learns it has to store data, change own understanding and learn. If you are interested in mimicing the human brain - there are several issues that prevent that from happening. But in any case if you want it to communicate and process the natural language - this is a problem right now.

Of course blending in to be perceived as the human is a different end goal than creating something that will emerge on its own

3 hours ago, by Evil

@vzn and it has nothing to do with anything besides the point that after profoundly, profusely, almost accurately describing some topic you skip the key part and give so many refs that I do nit belive anyone ever read them all...

↑ has the word "profoundly" in it

so like DW, whose opinion you apparently highly trust/ value, you are utterly sure its ~~wrong~~ missing the point, but you have no actual constructive/ specific/ alternative advice/ idea on how to fix it.

@vzn Ok, profoundly refers to your effort and the every part besides the key point. So shortly, I made an error, translated it wrong or simply wrote it poorly.

@Evil lol snif thought you were saying something nice for )( 1s :(

Your intro is profound, the other around the topic references are also profound.

@Evil and how do you know/ how can you be so sure they are merely "around" and not on?

@Evil dont know what you mean/ are referring to.

@Evil what "conjectures" are you referring to?

> A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. —James

> People stumble over the truth from time to time, but most get up and go on as if nothing had happened. —Churchill

2:10 AM

@vzn "Wiesz, dlaczego dzwon głośny? Bo wewnątrz jest próżny..."

@vzn I always take two turns of the translation, one is from English and one is from yours, now your turn :>

@Evil huh?

@vzn Does not apply to me, I assume, thinking is required as the first step...

tick, tick, tick goes the bounty timer :P

> "Do you know why a loud bell? Because inside is vain ..." (google)

> An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers. —plato

@vzn well, maybe you could shed some light on this?

@vzn a part of the bigger picture...

more deja vu, at this pt this is starting to remind me of our other saga. btw did you notice your chat ad has a fraction of the hits and half the daily hits of the "other" one that got criticized quite fervently also by the intelligentsia of this site? vzn1.wordpress.com/2016/07/25/… o_O

2:21 AM

@vzn I had, several times said something nice about you, but if you insist I can make another nice statement. I like you. That seems like enough pleasantry for one week.

@Evil awww, thx Evil. like you too (most of the time) :P lol that reminds me of a new yorker cartoon just saw

@vzn nice hair btw.

hair? lol. thx. nice horns. newyorker.com/cartoons/a16006

@vzn tick, tick, tick goes the bounty timer :P so are you going to do anything about it?

@vzn so I went to search for your answer that I will find good. The first one I found was good.

@vzn happier?

2:37 AM

@Evil lol ok then will cook up another profoundly off topic answer just for you :P

@vzn Ok, so I will cook up a bag of insults just in case. We have a deal, right?

2:52 AM

@vzn ideal t-shirt for your significant other

3:07 AM

@Evil lol

@Evil you make it sound so appetizing :|

3:50 AM

@vzn the only one path is neede, not all of them. No the paths cannot be scaled. So you think it is NP. Well, I thought that you give an idea to test it, cause you are undermotivated to write something.

@vzn and I do not see any fitting insult, I am unprepared. But I see that part of your answer is supposed to be a comment, some is a conjecture and the key part how to try to solve it is not exposed enough. If you wrote about heuristics and gave an example of encoding the problem it would be a valuable insight.

"Does anybody have an idea on how to speed this thing up." - this part is about suggestions on speeding things up not slowing them down by encoding them to SAT solver

Am I picky / stingy and misunderstood your ingenious and amazing answer or it is simply not about speeding things up but about your feeling while reading the question?

4:07 AM

@Evil lol never claimed to have an amazing answer. and after all your prior devaluing, why would you think that?

@Evil oh! finally starting to get it. maybe you are grading me like student assignments! so you think youre the authority! just like DW!

@Evil there is some scaling in the sense that "same-looking shapes work on larger grids".

@Evil on closer look dont think he has converted it to an unambigious description/ requirements. dont think anyone could write any correct code without restating the problem in a more precise way.

@Evil speed is relative. many problems are converted to SAT to get "fastest" known solutions, outperforming naive implementations/ heuristics/ search etc, there are many examples of this now.

sheesh, tough crowd, maybe should stop/ give up while behind :| :\ :( o_O

Anyone here do a lot of image processing?

@vzn "never give up, never surrender" - Abraham Lincoln

4:24 AM

@vzn because it is fair to assume that you have something awesome to show, why should I assume otherwise?

@vzn No I am not grading you, do not find myself an authority (but get your accusations straight, not that long ago I was influenced by authority and cognitively biased, now I am an authority?) and I do not care for such comparison.

@vzn I have no clue what D.W. thinks, do not see why you keep comparing us

@vzn the scalling in the case of translation and rotation invariant is about one grid, scalling was blurry and I merged it as scalling within one grid

@vzn Not really get it. Write an algorithm to create/draw path with given constraints, make it better than exhausting all possible states. One of the clearest questions ever.

@vzn this is something that D.W. suggests, to get off the shelf solver, so now you are agreeing on something, unthinkable...

@vzn I asked for the idea, not to bother your highness with actually writing a code, thinking or anything of that magnitude.

But as it seems, you are the first to judge people, so...

@whatwhatwhat yes, but the most of the time it is very simple, anyway the previous topic have ended or not yet?

4:40 AM

Topological sorting

In the field of computer science, a topological sort or topological ordering of a directed graph is a linear ordering of its vertices such that for every directed edge uv from vertex u to vertex v, u comes before v in the ordering. For instance, the vertices of the graph may represent tasks to be performed, and the edges may represent constraints that one task must be performed before another; in this application, a topological ordering is just a valid sequence for the tasks. A topological ordering is possible if and only if the graph has no directed cycles, that is, if it is a directed acyclic...

4:56 AM

My A.I. topic? I was reading a bit. I'll bring it up again when I have more questions.

@whatwhatwhat Ok

11 hours later…

3:43 PM

@whatwhatwhat have done image processing

> if you dont expect too much of me, you might not be let down! —gin blossoms

@deostroll ok see what you mean. not an expert but it doesnt look like a topological sort is unique. it seems to be similar to partial ordering. yes, it would probably be possible to write a comparator function on vertices that gives you that sort. however it might be a "rather complex" comparator... its probably not possible to just store info associated with each vertex and compare it. coincidentally did some work on something like this recently...

2nd thought "unique sort" is maybe not the right concept here. maybe there is some concept that the ordering depends on the entire structure and not merely local pairwise comparisons.

Is the question: "given $(w,h,n,k)$, find any one of such cycle"? Or is it "given $(w,h,n,k)$, count the number of possible cycles"? — Billiska Dec 17 at 19:18

@Evil where did DW suggest that? not in the comments in the question under discussion

4:00 PM

@vzn and the answer was "one"

@vzn not in that question, sorry

@Evil cognitive biases are/ can be highly situationally/ context dependent :P

@vzn says who?

@Evil me, The Authority™ :P

@Evil cant really tell (esp with the faux drama) if you want code or not. there are many ways to solve it. whose to say one way is better than another? an entire paper could be written on alternative generation techniques & associated tradeoffs. but then, as you have been doing so lately, one might ask, whats the point? hence my asking what field/ context the problem appears in etc :|

@vzn well, exponential only?

@Evil the triangular shape "template" sketched out works in general if the grid is large enough, and it can be 4-way rotated/ translated etc

4:22 PM

@vzn image processing in python, per chance?

I'm trying to figure out how to take a very non-complex image and trace out the image on a blank screen. So for example, let's say I have an image of a circle. Instead of simply copy pasting the image over to the new blank area, I want to write a script the will not only reproduce it over there but also show how it does this, i.e. I should be able to make a video of this happening. Thoughts?

5:10 PM

@whatwhatwhat this is nice software for image hacking, have used it, unix based en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netpbm

@whatwhatwhat what do you mean "show how it does this, make a video of it happening"?

hello

5:39 PM

@heather hello

@vzn, working on anything cool?

@heather coincidentally actually just secs ago added some cool stuff on collatz. cool from my pov that is. vzn1.wordpress.com/2016/12/12/… ... what prjs are you up to these days? what were you doing with latex anyway?

typing up some calc notes, helping Bernardo with chem notes

(in latex)

still working on the quantum computer simulator, not getting too far

trying to teach myself multivariable calc.

@heather latex is definitely nontrivial to install, its very impressive how much linux stuff youve got going already. on a chromebook! amazing! have urge to dink around with one of those sometime... many yrs ago "netbooks" were a hyped futuristic near-scifi concept... "the network is the computer"™ finally realized...

once you have linux installed on the chromebook it is easy to install texmaker

and i had people over on hbar helping me out =)

chromebook = awesome

it combines light/mobility/easy with hack-ability

5:46 PM

reminds me, did recently find a funky/ surprising/ contrarian/ engaging article on google. have ever seen "the internship"? reminded me of the movie (recently just saw another starring vince vaughan) dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4037292/… o_O

never seen it no

what kind of movies do you like? what have you seen recently?

<3 Star Wars

need to go see Rogue One

sounds cool, its raking in the $$$ at theatres, another huge hit o_O

yeah

5:56 PM

Rogue One is better than you imagine. It's one of the only movies I'd ever give 9.8/10. It's unreal how incredible it is.

all the star wars movies are like that

No way, Force Awakens was episode 4, but with a different paint job.

They robbed everyone

They knew people would pay to go see it no matter what, so they optimized and took an old script + storyboard and changed a few things and called it a new movie. Part of the reason their profit margins were so huge was because of this.

@vzn a script, by conventional use, will run in the background and just show you the final product, i.e. the image. This won't work for me because the original image is the final image! I need to screen record/make a movie of the process by which a GUI actually traces out the image.

Have you heard of Logo programming/turtle? I need that, but without the turtle and with python

@vzn you say "idle curiosity" lile it is a bad thing.

i have heard of logo programming/turtle

@Evil why do you care about boolean circuits?

6:04 PM

oh, i know what you mean

you want the program to show each step of tracing the image?

(if that makes any sense)

@whatwhatwhat so you do chat! whats up with your AI prj, have you heard of zuckerberg or not?

@vzn what is about the boolean circuits? Why should I care?

@Evil lol exactly cs.stackexchange.com/questions/50987/… ... speaking of caring, am now guessing youre gonna burn the current 50 :|

@vzn well I use these techniques to make optimizations of not circuits, so I do not care about the circuit underneath, but I like to know a technique/algorithm.

@whatwhatwhat "logo without the turtle"? lol what do you mean "the process by which a GUI traces out an image"? are you talking about drag-and-drop in the UI? cant follow

@Evil and, again, why do you care?

6:09 PM

And with the grid problem I find it very interesting, spent like several hours altogether drawing and writing some scripts, but I miss two things, so I got curious.

@Evil what did you miss?

@vzn a proof that we can greedily reduce k and it will always work and the general equation for the maximaly skewed path (ekhm, maximal number of corners) that will fit to grid w * h

@Evil so you did far more work than me. you should write it up and award yourself the 50 lol :P

@vzn mhm, this bounty was to propagate the idea, give it to someone, I didn't expected that there will be no answers

@Evil welcome to cyberspace :\

6:14 PM

And now when you wrote about self bounty, no refunds of bounties possible afaik.

@Evil lol dont know what youre saying. what did you write the code in?

@vzn JavaScript, but we are still at bad terms...

@Evil a halfway decent language. cohort around here was just talking about node.js

But fortunately in the near future (about six hours) I will be writing code in C and optimizing someones mess.

@Evil oh yeah? what prj is that? btw what is all your EEG analysis code written in?

6:19 PM

I liked node.js until found about 30 bugs preventing me from running it

@vzn well, another reading but on the different device, outsourcing actually.

@Evil ?

@vzn that is a nasty question, and I already told you, there are a different technologies, including CSS if you count styling the GUI

@Evil dont recall

2 hours later…

8:11 PM

@vzn there is a mix unfortunatelly, some C, C#, Matlab, JS, PHP., Java.... It is not on purpose, various programs written among the years by several people. I didn't had time to rewrite to one technology and there was no need.

I started about half year ago writing VM, or rather translator for internal language, crude optimizations and ready to use "write in one language, generate for other". With some success, but it is amateurish work. Also some Android apps and serwers were needed to use life feeds, mobile phone as the storage for data.

1 hour later…

9:34 PM

In the Christmas theme - I was naughty perfectly below Santa's threshold and have already got my gift, a master megamorphix cube, four layered. And after some topological mapping I have assumed it is (more or less) isomorphic to regular 4x4x4.

It is to some extend, but apparently also pieces rotation is important (good, a bit harder), and it is even cube (good, no fixed center), but after swapping corners some magic happens... No idea why yet.

10:15 PM

@heather Yes, that's right.

@vzn lol his project was so basic. That's another example of using the term "AI" to mean just a script. The real AI that everyone is waiting for is the autonomous program, not this SEO boosting crap.

10:56 PM

Magic resolved, human error :-/

@whatwhatwhat By traces do you mean performs raster to vector conversion?

@Evil not sure what that is. What I mean is very simple really. Imagine someone drawing something. It's that.

You know how you can watch the tip of their pencil move around the paper to draw the image? That.

11:11 PM

So you use mouse for drawing, store the mousemove events, use some Bresenham or built-in line to connect points, save with timestamp and then replay?

@whatwhatwhat converting BMP/PNG or any other raster format to SVG or any other vector format - this I know as tracing.

@Evil So you use mouse for drawing - no I'm awful at drawing lol. I just want to have an image and be able to trace it out.

Take a look at this video youtube.com/watch?v=pARWQTi7rTQ

Ideally, it would be nice to have a person's hand there with the pencil, but I'm taking baby steps so the first thing is to find a way to draw the image line by line/curve by curve.

@whatwhatwhat this is the part where you have to know what to draw, a list of lines / curves, a hand sprite and some timer to animate.

If you have a list of geometric primitives it is easy, just draw them, but if you take a photo, you cannot immediately draw it using curves.

So either you have a text (and read the curves from the font file), own primitives (line, circle, curve) or want something more, like changing a photo to oil painting and then show how it was painted (something like this)

In the video there are pencil strokes, a text, a cat. If this were your image, how would you store the drawing?

@vzn peace.

11:47 PM

@Evil so I'm thinking take the first image and "subtract" it from the second image. This will leave me with all additional lines needed to create the 2nd image. Now I need to categorize the remaining lines.

I'd start by selecting all isolated lines and saying that these can be added at any point in the animation. So the remaining lines must all be connected. For these connected lines, one idea I have is to calculate its length, divide it into like 8 parts or something, and then animate the pencil going over the line segments one at a time. What do you think?

Please note that I'm no computer science expert (formally, I study physics).

@whatwhatwhat I do not know about subtraction, it seems like the simplest edges detector. I think that the idea sounds very good but you will soon find out it actually does not go that easy. I would start from basics: describe what images, what colors, what is the input.

@whatwhatwhat me neither, just trying to be, formally I am more psychologist.

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