The Whiteboard - 2016-10-31

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12:39 AM

@SimonForsberg Duga doesn't appear to be in here. Is she OK?

6 hours later…

6:58 AM

@ThomasOwens She seems okay, look here:

Duga's Neighborhood

It's a beautiful bot in the neighborhood. Would you be mine, w...

Although it's possible that if people use the new site name she doesn't catch it.

4 hours later…

10:51 AM

@SimonForsberg Thanks. Also, I'm annotating comments. I should have something for you in a couple of days, depending on how much time I can put in after work. I wanted to ask if you needed the html format or if markdown worked, too.

1 hour later…

11:59 AM

@ThomasOwens Markdown could work. I think @Duga strips away all the HTML. I think she would do the same for Markdown

1 hour later…

1:22 PM

Stack Overflow Blog: Stack Overflow Podcast #93 - A Very Spolsky Halloween Special

posted on October 31, 2016 by Kaitlin Pike

A warning to all souls before you go further: We know you’ve been dying to hear this special Halloween edition of the podcast, but due to its frightening nature, we recommend you proceed with caution and put all small children and ghosts to rest before hitting play. But if you are so adventurous as to continue…

1:46 PM

Good Monday Morning to everyone. May you put your nose to the grindstone and your shoulder to the wheel and your pedal to the metal.

user114359

2:20 PM

There is nothing good about Monday morning unless it is a vacation day.

3

2:33 PM

@Snowman even better? a holiday so you don't have to take vacation :)

2 hours later…

4:14 PM

@AaronHall it wasn't recorded. :(

4:37 PM

@enderland boo. What was the outline? You should write up a blog post that summarizes it or something like that.

5:02 PM

@AaronHall I'm going to post the presentation eventually

Please ping me when you do.

5:26 PM

Here's a minor tweet storm explaining why I'm probably voting for Trump:

When I call out the powerful on #twitter or elsewhere - that's my values. This is America, where it's legal to speak truth to power.

Tweeted by aaronchall on October 31, 2016 at 5:22 PM in reply to aaronchall

5:41 PM

@AaronHall I was going to add it to my linkedin first, but apparently linked-in doesn't even have the ability to add presentations. WAT.

@enderland I thought it did.

it has publications, but not conference presentations

I think that's what you are supposed to use. Why couldn't you?

user image

I guess I could, it's just awkward

6:01 PM

@AaronHall Regarding Python's multiple inheritance. The main problem revolves around __init__(): how can I pass arguments to pre-existing base classes "class A(): def __init__(self, a, b): …" and "class B(): def __init__(self, b, c): …"? (1) Apparently, both base class ctors have to invoke "super().__init__(???)", even if they don't have base classes themselves. (2) There's no way you can pass the data to the init methods since the signatures are incompatible.

Consequence: As always, composition is far more desirable than any inheritance, especially given duck typing.

(I assume it's sensible to call A.__init__(self, a, b) explicitly, but I've never seen that)

If you can't do cooperative multiple inheritance, delegation (that's what you mean by composition, isn't it.) is a solution.

Raymond Hettinger - Super considered super! - PyCon 2015

@amon best practice is to avoid the hard-coded parent...

Yes, that doesn't solve anything especially if there are base classes – A.__init__ might super() to B.__init__ in which case everything is lost.

The "adapter" pattern is inelegant and verbose - I avoid it where possible.

@AaronHall How would you do delegation? Spell out everything manually "def foo(self, *args, **kwargs): return self.delegatee(*args, **kwargs)"? Or is there a way to generate auto-delegating descriptors "foo = delegate('foo', to=lambda self: self.delegatee)"?

6:18 PM

That's fine pseudocode, but really, just as verbose as the real:

def foo(self): self.delegatee.foo()

add in arguments, and your code looks multiplicatively worse.

(+ functools.wraps to get docstrings + getter/setter/deleter for properties … it does add up)

Yep. That's one reason why I like real multiple inheritance - if it makes sense.

ALL: What's the state of the state of OOP?

How did we get here, and where are we going?

Of course MI makes sense if I can use it – but if all classes have to cooperate to make MI possible, I might as well use C++ (← actually, a nice language)

@AaronHall is trait-based OOP still hot?

When choosing between C++ and Python, you are trading off speed of development versus speed of execution. Emphasizing speed of development usually means that Python wins.

Might want to consider migrating it, although asking on their [meta site](meta.softwareengineering.stackexchange.com) first might be a good idea. SO is really more for practical, answerable questions than questions about design. Note that the questions you've linked to were asked in the early years of SO (before SE [which itself used to be Programmers] split off) and would likely be closed now as well. — Mike McCaughan 41 secs ago

6:35 PM

Some time ago, I tried to find some statistics, but all I can see are studies that show little effect of language on productivity. More likely: people are fast in whatever they are familiar and comfortable with.

I'm proficient in Python, but I miss C++'s type system in every other language I touch. I might be able to hack out a prototype more quickly in Python, but a strong type system does prevent many problems which might reduce total development time for a comparable quality level, especially the larger the project gets.

(yes, I'm aware of mypy-lang. No, it's not comparable to a first class type system)

@amon Our shop takes an iterative, RAD approach with (more or less) state-of-the-art languages and technologies. We recently stood up a non-trivial web application in 12 weeks from start to finish using four contract developers, an application that would have taken an enterprise Java shop a year to develop.

Full Stack Web Developer - Work from home - A Players Wanted

Powerfront Inc

c#sql-serverjqueryamazon-web-services

Work on the latest online engagement technology Further your career with an international, innovative web company Work…

Posted on Stack Overflow Jobs on October 1, 2016

That is impressive.

@amon Yep. We used Aurelia with a Telerik Kendo bridge. So we're standing on the shoulders of giants, to a degree. It's written mostly in Typescript.

Yeah, especially that you might make tens of thousands of dollars working for them.

Maybe they left off a 0 when creating the post?

Or maybe that range is monthly comp?

I've seen a couple of different posts like that. I asked one of them if it was a part-time position, and they said "No, it's full-time, 40 hours per week."

@amon The backend is a Workflow Server driven by SQL Server tables, I've mentioned in here a couple times before.

6:49 PM

Very interesting. What sort of players will they attract with D level compensation?

Worse: what sort of application will they build? I bet they'll be safe it won't even work.

Not everyone lives in New York or San Francisco. Given that this is remote, they might be able to find interesting international talent, even in that price range.

I think they're trying to locate Indian programmers to do the work.

The New Offshoring™. Good luck with that.

Ah, "A" as in "Ahnteresting..."

I don't know what comp in India looks like. They might be able to get an "A" guy who's working multiple remote gigs, onboarding them like one-at-a-time.

"varied" work schedule...

Salaries of web developers in India, the Philippines, USA and around the world. A bit old (2012), but it shows the proportions.

user114359

I live in an area of the USA with an inexpensive cost of living, and that salary is a slap in the face. I know college graduates making more than that at their first jobs.

user114359

6:57 PM

At the low end of that salary range, that is $10/hour. In other words, less than McDonald's workers are receiving in certain job markets.

I can see hiring a remote "A" guy who can deliver at 40k, and that "A" guy having so much downtime that he's juggling 4 or 5 such gigs at any point in time.

He would be bad at joining meetings, not always on time with deliverables, but I'd be happy with his comp vs his output.

Probably feel like I was getting a better deal than outsourcing the work to someone like Pivotal.

This site says that the average salary of a software engineer in India is Rs 368,064, which works out to about $5500 per year in US dollars.

So $40K would be a king's ransom.

You probably could work 3 or 4 yourself, and then you'd want to outsource some of the gigs to India, then you'd be taking on more gigs, more outsourcing, then you hire a manager, then sell your company for 10 million - based on revenue growth.

The firms you're "working for" shouldn't have a problem with it, they're probably 1099'ing you, since they probably don't want to consider you an "employee".

user114359

That site is kind of depressing. It puts me at the 51st percentile in terms of pay in my area for my job title.

just barely better than average? :)

user114359

7:12 PM

I was going to look soon anyway. Not going into detail here. Maybe somewhere else. But between the site Robert just linked and some other research, I really need a positive career move soon.

user114359

although the first time through it didn't give an option to change the country, and dollars are worth a lot more than whatever India uses. It put me in the bottom 1%

@Snowman they wanted pretty much all the information in the world to give me anything

I think you need to differentiate yourself such that the scales presented on those sites don't apply. Then you become a (positive) outlier leveraging your strengths.

I think the generic strategy would be to acquire domain/business knowledge such that you can rise to a level of leadership in your firm and be tapped for gigs that will fairly compensate you for it.

user114359

@AaronHall I really can't go into too much detail here, but my current employer does give me opportunities to leverage my skills and knowledge and I do take advantage of those opportunities. But there are systemic issues with this company that make my day-to-day efforts very tedious. Overall I think my compensation is okay, but it is not high enough to deal with some of the headaches I have there.

@Snowman read this:

amazon.com/Fire-Your-Boss-Stephen-Pollan/dp/0060583940/…

user114359

7:25 PM

I am also concerned about the long-term viability when there are tons of VPs and managers who don't do much, and the salaries are flat and no bonuses this year. Org charts should be shaped like a pyramid, not a skyscraper.

@AaronHall Is that just another "be your own boss" platitude book, or is there actionable advice there?

Stephen M Pollan is a lawyer/life-coach for the wealthy in NYC - as I understand it.

user114359

@AaronHall I have heard of that book (and others like it) before. I learned long ago that there is no loyalty in the job market and there is only one person looking out for me: me.

I was probably flogging it here before.

Yes, I already know that as well. And if that's all that the book says...

7:28 PM

It's as specific as it can be given its general audience, but there are a lot of anecdotes.

It's about career management.

"...so you're never again subject to the whims, prejudices, moods, or circumstances of your so-called boss." Yep. Now you're subject to the whims, prejudices, moods, and circumstances of yourself.

Not really, it's not saying to become self employed. It's telling you how to make your boss love you so much that you're on the top of his list, not the bottom.

It's an attitude thing. The right attitude is what makes all the difference. If you feel your damn lucky to have any job that's how you'll get paid. If you're only working this job because it happens to be interesting you'll get paid that way. Everyone is entitled to take that attitude. Care enough about yourself to be sure your worth it and you'll actually find more opportunities this way.

That's part of it, certainly.

@CandiedOrange mrmoneymustache.com/2012/10/03/…

7:32 PM

But he's also saying you need to be constantly fishing for more and better.

No one care fairly evaluate what your worth. You're expecting to much of your boss if you do. The truly rich people have options. If you only work hard enough to have one job as an option you're the one who made you poor.

You want your bosses to love you so much that they regret losing you when you go, and remain glowing references for you.

Anyhow, it's in the book, put in various ways and with stories to illustrate.

Just read the book.

Looks like you can get it for $4 delivered: amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0060583932/…

The best thing you can do is socialize. It's hard. We went into this field because we like things not people. But people know where the new cool things are so get out and talk to them. What you can do hides in your head. What you're known for brings people saying things like, "You really should apply for..."

2

Hah, and that makes it easy, you don't even have to try hard to socialize. You just bumble along and make a minimal effort, and it'll happen.

7:49 PM

Another thing is to save your money. The essential thing is to never put yourself in a position where you are trapped so you just have to take it.

we have a lot of "FU" money for that reason @CandiedOrange

Always approach your job as something you do because it's boring to hang around at home all the time.

@CandiedOrange mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/…

you might enjoy that article, along those lines...

"The money is just a way to keep score" sounds rich and snobbish but the most interesting jobs go to the ones that command the big salaries. So I justify wanting a higher salary not because mom is in the hospital or I have a new kid, but because I want to work on the stuff the cool kids work on and I need the rep that gets me there.

or even internal assignments

7:55 PM

Pollan points out that internal movement is much less likely. I think you can arrive at the same conclusion that if you limit your options to a single firm, you'll have much fewer options.

reminds me of:

200

A: Why is it important to gain "visibility" in the workplace?

If I can write awesome code, why should I care about having visibility? The work I am doing rocks, then why should I think about standing on the roof top and telling about it. The Lie The important thing to realize is - no one cares about what you do at work. No one cares how great your cod...

Internal or external you want to be Coke not Pepsi. Pepsi always sold it self as good enough but cheaper. By doing that they made Coke into the premium soda. People don't make these choices rationally. They make them based on impressions. Give the impression that you're the premium choice.

@AaronHall my goal internally at my company is to be so good that I can pick/choose what I want to work on

8:09 PM

That's a good internal goal, but... what about external goals? stackoverflow.com/jobs

@AaronHall maybe someday :)

8:27 PM

I have a friend who just told me he's doing something different. He was shuffling papers for an life insurance sales office, and now he's back at something he really knows a lot about (title insurance), AND he's making more money. I'm really happy for him.

@AaronHall Tweets like this make you sound crazy. You probably have a well thought reason for saying what you're saying, but the execution is borderline bonkers.

:D

It's no big deal.

But thank you for your feedback.

When I tweet at the MTA or DeBlasio or anyone of power or influence, you'll probably understand me a bit better.

I don't have any near-term milestones on StackOverflow to obsess about. Maybe I should focus on ~~Programmers~~ Software Engineering now...

9:08 PM

It just sounds like you're saying America is the only place where people can tweet to their politicians... which is far from true.

That sounds like a nit-pick.

It's a tweet-storm, not an editable Stack Overflow answer.

9:25 PM

Maybe my inexperience with twitter is to blame. What's a tweet-storm?

twitter. ugh.

@enderland that's my gut reaction too... but I'm trying to be respectful and understand it.

Granted, telling someone they sound crazy isn't that respectful. Pobody's nerfect.

Did you read the series of self-replies for context?

I'm too old to understand how twitter works.

it looked like a rant about US politics.

OMG, I hate twitter. It really looks like where good ideas go to die, or where hastily constructed and poorly researched ideas go to multiply.

Half of the stuff I just saw was unintelligible. #oldFart #camelCase

9:42 PM

Here's a series of tweets I just tweeted about Python: twitter.com/aaronchall/status/793205116560084996

I'm tweeting some more, too.

:D

I've had that "you should smile more" advice said to me, in public, as a man. FYI I am not smiling BECAUSE I AM *SUPER PISSED OFF*

Tweeted by codinghorror on October 31, 2016 at 8:31 PM

(posted my RT incorrectly for a bit there...)

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