The Water Cooler - 2016-10-18 (page 1 of 2)

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6:35 AM

Morning

5 hours later…

11:21 AM

@RichardU Tbh, if a non-technical owner decided to hire a dev lead without at least consulting the devs, then he should have fired them a long time ago

Otherwise, the owner has no business in making technical hire decisions: He has no clue what anything is in that

If the trust is so far gone that he needs to bring in someone to "clean up" then there is nothing to salvage.

Although the OP doesn't strike me as a star either

writing database level applications and not knowing sql is pathethic how did these 2 devs even get through training just using ORM

I can already see a website app that by all intents and purposes should be performant but suddenly 20s page load time because someone couldn't figure out how to output from the database properly and decided to loop fields to get there or something equally nonsensical.

Although, not using an IDE and not using Googleable ressources, you can expect any given task at least taking 10x as long as it needs to, for me personally. I can dig through docs by hand, but its not very efficient.

12:14 PM

@Magisch I went back after the edit. It looks bad all ways around. Given what the OP posted, the owner has just cause in his disappointment. Reading the OP's edit, I'm not sure if the hired gun is an idiot, or just cleaning house.

@RichardU Either way, the best advice is probably to leave.

The entire thing reeks of a nonfixable attitude and situation

@Magisch I think people on this board are far too focused on the problems with the hired lead and not focusing on the problems with the dev team that caused the owner to hire a dev lead

If I was employed there I would get the hell out

54 mins ago, by Magisch

writing database level applications and not knowing sql is pathethic how did these 2 devs even get through training just using ORM

from OPs edits it sounds like there is one actually decent dev there (the guy who forced them into version control and nightly builds) and a whole bunch of people who don't really know c# and don't have a need to learn it either

which is sad

assuming the OP isn't trolling, this person sounds fairly brilliant too and while his expertise might not be as great for the company working with someone who is competent enough to effectively not require the internet to code would be a rather fun opportunity

12:20 PM

I require the internet to code efficiently

I'll admit it

@enderland If he can code in notepad++ without an IDE, he's damn brilliant.

I google lots of things

@magisch, but you're young. That's expected

I make extensive use of fancy debuggers

@RichardU right

12:21 PM

@RichardU So are these devs

they're 3 years in

I'm 1 1/2 years in now

I think I would learn to be a much better dev without stack overflow, long term

or at least if I could only use it to ask questions and not to read other answers

@Magisch exactly, and I bet that in another 1.5 years

@enderland I actually use SO as a last resort. They're not as good as they think they are.

I mean I can produce working code just by looking at the docs and without an IDE it just takes ages compared to using the 'net thoroughly

@Magisch you'd be better off doing it the slow way when you have time, it will make you MUCH better.

Remember, people like @enderland and I didn't have the 'net to learn from

@RichardU most of my time adding new features is spent reading current source code anyways

12:24 PM

@RichardU I think you overestimate how old I am :P ;-)

Since I don't want to code out of the current paradigm and style for maintenance reasons

@enderland aren't you 40+

... no :P

I've asked maybe 14 questions on SO

I'm always a little sad in vocational school though when we get an assignment and instead of writing the code most of my peers just find something vaguely resembling that on SO and then c&p and dress it up like its the real deal

And then you have someone standing in front with a medium size piece of code and they can't tell you what it does at all

Its the same problem as with abusing ORM so hard, you may be able to wing it to work but when it breaks you're so SOL that it ends up not being worth it to begin with.

12:39 PM

@enderland damn you're good then

@Magisch I use the 'net as a last resort, and when I do use it, it's as a learning tool, not to swipe code. When I do need something in a rush, I usually go back and recode it. As you've observed, people rely on it too much.

Almost nobody serious swipes code off the net into production

You look for a example of how its done, and then make your own based on what you learned from looking at that

@Magisch citation needed? I suspect quite a few people do this. I've added SO references to a few utility functions I found on SO, too, which do exactly what I need

tough my current task (implementing a order /inventory processing system from scratch) doesn't even permit that. I don't think I can find someone to outsource 2 months of project to even if I wanted to

I also don't want to know what percentage of SO citations are done so against the license agreement

My guess is people more prone to correctly citing are also more prone to not needing to cite it

I'm a little allergic against putting foreign code in my work

Its my code I have to write it and it needs to be consistent with the rest

12:55 PM

@Magisch and often with the requirements... like you need 3 weeks?, ok, I give you 3 hours kind of things... :-(

@bilbo_pingouin Meh. I'm an apprentice so they think that I can do next to nothing

So they'll give me something that takes a day and tell me I got 4 weeks and then get super surprised when its done in a day

you might want to wait for two days, not to set a bad precedent ;-)

1:22 PM

@Magisch I'm a maintenance coder, you'd be surprised at how much swiped code has made it into production

@RichardU I'm also maintance coding atm, and most stuff in our main app isn't good enough to be lifted from somewhere on the 'net :p

@Magisch ROFL!

@RichardU Let me grab something for you

We had to lift a calander app from the 'net. I recoded it to eliminate 90% of the code, no exageration

@RichardU If (IsNull(CStr(DLookup("[Proc_ID]","[COR_Proc]","[Entry] = " & Me![Proc_Ent])))) Then

I'll give you a cookie if you can find the 5 errors in this check

1:30 PM

@Magisch You mean there's only 5?

5 that I can see

This is a fairly useless form_initiate check that never gets entered so it doesn't do anything but if a condition arose that would theorethically enter this if block it would runtime error out anyways

@Magisch that one took me out of my happy place.

Well 1. If DLookup returns null then there'll be a runtime error anyways, Cstr doesn't take null as parameter ever, second appending NULL to a string (if the field was empty) also throws a runtime error, third the column being checked is a shared primary key so it's not allowed to be empty ever. fourth Me![anything] references are shaky ground at best, fifth is trying to CStr a Dlookup result to begin with

These are the ones I saw in it

@Magisch What's worse is the stuff that works, but not well. That can often go unnoticed until someone's "great idea" starts getting used by multiple people, or goes from using small files to large ones.

I recoded an application that went from 10 hours to process to under 10 minutes.

@Magisch I'm quite glad I don't have to deal with Access anymore

1:43 PM

or you start getting cryptic runtime errors in non-standard scenarios and spend days tracking the fault down to a logic error in the if-else abscesses of a 30 deep nested giant if-conflagration

@enderland lucky you

@Magisch I never go more than three layers deep in an if statement, and ONLY if I'm under 20 lines of code and ONLY if it makes sense to do so. I prefer the select case statement with function calls if processing gets complicated

I almost prefer it when they just use the Macro Recorder.

except... Access!

or outlook, writing VBA for that was intense

@enderland I'm convinced that Access only exists to increase the number of heart attacks of coders

I should have saved all the VBA I wrote at my last job, I had all sorts of fun stuff there

1:46 PM

I don't like nesting in general

I have a thing that calculates the cyclomatic complexity for my code and I try to stay low

@Magisch it's good to avoid nesting wherever possible and make the code as generic and modular as possible.

The idea is to make the code simple enough that 5 year later me who knows nothing of it anymore still can grasp it in a minute or so

@Magisch correct

@Magisch I know you are struggling now, but you are going to do very well in a few years

It feels like its somehow harder for no reason though

Still, I have enough time to burn on that so I rahter avoid getting into bad habits

@RichardU Not sure Access is the worst of all... see for example, Commitstrip's take on it: commitstrip.com/en/2016/10/07/timecapsule

They consider NodeJS frameworks to be high contender....

1:53 PM

@bilbo_pingouin touché`

I might be so bold as to say that anything based on JS is at best suspicious...

<grabs a cup> Hi! I'm new here...

@Stephie Hi

Hello

I'm not interrupting, am I?

1:58 PM

This is a public chat

:)

@Magisch I know. Still, sometimes a group is just deeply engrossed in some topic.

@Stephie don't worry, we don't bite. We stopped after the last person bit back

@RichardU good to hear.

@Stephie How did you find this chat room?

new user on TW, but experience user on other sites, I'd say

2:04 PM

@Magisch Just registered at the Workplace and decided to check this out.

hi as well... we "met" on some other sites actually...

interesting

@bilbo_pingouin we did? Oh... Where?

<scratches head>

@Stephie well "met" was probably too much, but we "exchanged" some comments on Parenting, I believe...

Mhm

I'm active in a different corner of SE

2:08 PM

can someone tell me what the english word is for the period you are supposed to work after you quit?

my brain is turned off today :(

notice ?

@RaoulMensink notice period?

thank you

@Stephie I probeply broke the conversation more though :D

@RaoulMensink You think so? I don't ;-)

Does anyone know whether mentioning SE activities makes sense in a CV, profile or similar? As "soft skills" or "volunteering"? I'm sure that has been discussed here like a million of times.

havent seen it yet and no it doesnt really

2:15 PM

Maybe as trivia to bring up in an interview but not in a cv

depends on the position though

Most of us are software devs so thats our frame of reference

for a position as a community manager, a moderator position here might be useful

Also volunteering it might on a Profile if you are a mod, but then again that might give you more wrong Attention than good

What do you consider the drawbacks?

profile on maybe the workplace could mean you're advocating for workers rights

sad as that is many hr departments take that as an auto-NO

Well, lets just say you mention it on a Profile where People can respond to you. That might not end up being the most "fun" conversation in your live.

2:21 PM

if you access the site at working hours, it might show that you waste the time of your company ;-)

that to

@Magisch Geez. I'm a SW Engineer in Automotive (in Germany, like you). Unless I am a member of a union, that should be ok.

SAP? :X

@Stephie from my frame of reference, if my company knew I was active on the workplace and had a faible for workplace laws, I'd be gotten rid of pretty quickly

Many many many company owners and HR people like their employees uninformed and not very curious in that area

@RaoulMensink That's not Automotive. ^_^

2:23 PM

@Magisch If your workplace noticed they got on hnq multiple times they would fire you instantly :P

VW or BMW?

@Stephie Well I thought you might have been my co-worker :P

@RaoulMensink ... :(

@Magisch Supplier.

Ah

2:23 PM

@Magisch there are a few more than those two ;)

These were the first two I could think of

@bilbo_pingouin well in Germany ist VW, BMW or Mercedes I think

it is*

@RaoulMensink and Porsche and Audi.

and Opel

(Please never mention to one of their managers that they are VW...)

2:25 PM

but I supposed he meant as groups

Which makes Opel a GM.

but then there are many suppliers

@Stephie I'm a software developer apprentice at a semiconductor testing and auditing company

How did the cake workout for you @Magisch?

@Magisch Eeeek - hardware! ^_^

JK!

2:26 PM

@RaoulMensink aww I thought ist was a joke in place of is :)

@RaoulMensink Expensively

Cake?

@enderland no it is autocorrection

@Stephie you wouldnt believe it was true XD

and I still really dont like cake

@RaoulMensink Try me.

2:29 PM

@Stephie kay basicly Magisch has to buy cake for every employee in his Company as an Azubi.

Ill lookup the qeustion for you

Einstand?

nein, geburtztag

Oh. Hint: Find someone else that has a birthday or other cake-occasion and share the costs....

or keep it for you until the date is over ;)

nope doesnt work

One they will expect you to bring cake. Two they will demand it is delicious. Three Shareing Is a no go, they will want a cake per Person.

Four it is not just your Team it really is the ENTIRE company

And five i cant find the qeustion

2:33 PM

@bilbo_pingouin the secretary will probably spill the beans. And statistically @Magisch will have one birthday per year. With a 2-3 year apprenticeship, he'll be exposed as cheepskate after 12 months.

This is why if I ever start a company / run a department / etc. things like birthday cake will either not be a thing, or be a thing that the department picks up the tab for as part of the budget for employe morale.

97

Q: Dealing with expensive office traditions

In the company I work at (more than 200 employees), it's customary to buy cakes for everyone when it is your birthday. This is all but an explicitly stated requirement -- it's taken very seriously. Although they can't fire me for noncompliance, I would really like to avoid annoying my boss signif...

work-environment germany events

Found it :D

@Kaz my Department head pays most of the bills since he cares about his employees since Management clearly doesnt. And there are alot of volunteer Events that just cost like 10 €. I would say after reading workplace I got a dream Job :D

@Kaz Morale is everything.

Ugh! another "diversity" question

0

Q: How do you volunteer to mentor someone to promote diversity?

I was going through annual HR training, and one thing jumped out at me. In the "diversity" section, an advice was given to the effect of "if you care about diversity, volunteer to participate in efforts... such as mentor someone". Now, I have mentored people before, and see it as a wonderful opp...

mentoring diversity

Personally, I'd like people to see me, not my disabilities

2

Christopher Estep

2:55 PM

Where I work we actually have a "Chief Diversity Officer" no lie.

I just found that out by checking our Diversity & Inclusion Homepage.

I just googled that now too. Until this very moment I didn't realize that was a thing. /boggle

#megacorps

Christopher Estep

Yep. And I'm at one of the biggest. I didn't say I was surprised though. :) When they have a big carnival and call it Diversity Days you kind of expect that sort of thing.

for this year I just saved up for 5 months

@Magisch Cakes again?

Yeah

Although I did only half actual cake and then some fresh fruit and some ice cream

came out 40 euros cheaper then last year

Christopher Estep

3:06 PM

<insert obligatory "the cake is a lie" joke here>

Good move - the fruit impresses the more "health conscious" crowd. And a bag of apples is darn cheap.

Christopher Estep

I like berries over apples. Unless the apples are whole, berries have a better shelf-life in a presentation.

it was some whole apples, some plums, some nuts, some bananas and some grapes

@ChristopherEstep <%= TheCakeIsALie %>

Just like a family size fruit basket

3:08 PM

@ChristopherEstep prohibitively expensive here.

And I got lucky and was able to aquire a whole carton of ice cream (magnum ice cream) for 12 euros

@ChristopherEstep We dont even have an CTO our CFO does that "also"

@ChristopherEstep The problem with diversity programs is that if you have a disability or other thing that makes you "diverse" and you climb the ladder, the assumption is always that you did NOT make it on your merits

@Magisch I was able to buy 200 water icecream for 2 € I gotta say you are makeing it expensive

I'm not cut out to be a event organizer

3:10 PM

@RichardU sometimes having two X-chromosomes falls into the same category...

but I didn't have to drain part of my savings account this year

despite spending nearly a month of salary on that useless stunt

Folks, I need to get get back to work (no, I'm not depriving an employer while lingering here). See you!

@Stephie Noooooo T_T

Christopher Estep

@RichardU as far as I can tell, our diversity programs are focused on women and minorities. I could be wrong though. Being a white man I didn't look into it too much since it doesn't directly affect me.

Also, I think most companies don't equate diversity programs with affirmative action which is kind of what you're doing.

@Magisch atleast you didnt go broke :)

Christopher Estep

3:23 PM

@Magisch That would annoy me so much I'd find work elsewhere. Not urgently, but it's severely annoying.

@ChristopherEstep he is a 2-3 year intern, it is not in the Cards.

Christopher Estep

Ah yes, Europe. :)

not intern, apprentice

Its a little more serious then intern but paid just as shittily

Christopher Estep

I really like being able to say "Screw you guys, I'm going hooome" (said in an Eric Cartman voice)

Well I need this job and I need them to give me a good reference letter

So I can't afford pissing them off

4:25 PM

@ChristopherEstep yeah, being hearing impaired and autistic didn't provide much of a shield against being a white male. Apparently being white and male is so powerful, it can overcome any other adversity.

4:36 PM

Personally, I've always felt "not-rich" is the most powerful barrier.

Compare: "Rich, non-heterosexual, transsexual, minority woman" with "average, hetero, cisgender, white man". I'd still bet on the former for life outcomes.

@Kaz well yeah. Socioeconomic class and wealth are the two biggest factors in opportunity period. No other factor comes close.

The fact that I'm in germany and not in the Congo has a bigger impact on my life then the fact that I'm probably mildly autistic or that I'm white or that I'm asexual.

5:01 PM

Is not the current discussion on diversity in here a bit one sided?

@DoritoStyle For most binary groupings, yes. Can you suggest an alternative?

@DoritoStyle If you can provide a different point, we're all happy to entertain it :D

I'm sure :) I think it's better to try to put yourself into the shoes of a minority or the opposite gender than to make claims of what you think should matter more to them, merit vs oppurtunity for example.

Sometimes I daydream about an egalitarian society, but...

5:17 PM

@DoritoStyle I'm completly for equality of opportunity

But it seems like these days efforts are focused on equality of outcome

I would go so far as to call myself a feminist in that I find sexism disgusting and inappropiate, but I really don't like when people try to tackle inequality of opportunity by trying to force equality of outcome. That makes for a significantly less convincing position.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "outcome"

Equality of opportunity would be ensuring women have all the chances to go into whatever field they want and/or have talent in

@DoritoStyle Serious question: Do I have any business assuming that I can say, with any accuracy, what somebody with different life experiences would consider important or not important? Or is that itself a form of suppression?

Equality of outcome would be saying we need 50% women in STEM in the end

The latter presupposes that given a unbiased socialization and education phase exactly as many women would lean towards technical positions then not.

@kaz unless i'm missing something, I would say no. That's why (I think) most governments and companies rely on data to combat inequality instead.

5:23 PM

Which is not enjoying much scientific support at the moment.

Equality of Opportunity is super important. In any decent society, everyone with the talent and will to pick up a certain career should be able to do so. But artificially trying to create preferences that don't exist in that amount doesn't encourage choice, its just a different form of oppression.

@Magisch fair enough, but I'm not sure if we have better alternatives to that currently. Left to it's own devices, the marketplace of job opportunity develops huge bias.

That is because the job market isn't the place to fix this issue

Socialization and general societal bias is the cause, and by masking effects you do nothing to fix the cause.

The alternative is to leave women & minorities behind because we don't have a perfect solution, no?

No the alternative is to recognize the actual cause and combat it directly

Well, on that point I disagree. Wouldn't having more women & minorities in this generation's workforce heavily counteract the bias of the current and previous generation and set the next up for more equal footing?

5:27 PM

Life is unfair, get used to it, all the "equality" losers out there. Equality is nothing more than a political plank. We learn from history that we learn nothing from history. Sigh!

Ideally, society should work well enough that the job market sorts itself out and the pay gap naturally evaporates as women and men are increasingly socialized with individual preferences in mind and not stereotyped gender roles

How else do you propose to "fix" society without denying the current generation of opportunity?

Not by introducing bias in the other direction

Well, I disagree, and that's fine.

I don't know how to fix this, but current trends in feminism are not. Its come so far as to make that word super super toxic and people go into a natural defensive stance

you can't convince people by accusing them of being monsters

5:29 PM

I disagree completely with "Its come so far as to make that word super super toxic and people go into a natural defensive stance"

the world of today is better than yesterday's

try and say you're a feminist on the internet

and enjoy the death threats as they flood in

@MaskedMan That strikes me as a completely untenable position.

convincing people isn't working if you're trying to exclude them

Christopher Estep

Same thing happens if you try to say modern feminism is harmful. The internet is the land of extremes.

just because "life isn't fair" then we should never try to make it better? isn't that the complete antithesis of the entire history of civilization?

5:31 PM

even if you'Re objectively right, if your framing sucks then people will not change their mind

I've gotten death threats from both sides on the same topic

I don't think diversity is meant to convince anyone. No millionaire is going to change their mind on ethics if they don't want to; not without incentive.

and its because so many people on either side of social causes are just entirely oblivious to how not to villify the opposing side

@DoritoStyle Make it better, sure, but not by pretending to promote "equality" for purely political points.

Oh you do need to change minds

without enough people believing in it, you can't get it

There is no forcing social change against the people

It's not meant to change minds, it's meant to counteract the failings of the free market, which kinda the whole thing the U.S. government is good at.

5:32 PM

the only way social change works is if you convince enough people of it

No, you don't need to change their minds. You need to introduce competition and let the old generation die out. Circle of life.

lack of diversity isn't a failing of the free market

Christopher Estep

And yes, millionaires do change their minds at times without financial incentives. People aren't the caricatures you paint them as. One aspect (wealth) doesn't define them.

its a failing of society as a whole

"lack of diversity isn't a failing of the free market" strongly disagree. That's why regulations continue to exist, no?

5:33 PM

Some things are failings of the free market

it's a failing of both the free-market and society.

like tendency to congregate wealth exponentially

they're inherent in the system

and where does that wealth congregate? not in the hands of women & minorities, not yet.

But a free market run by gender-unbiased people would never develop a lack of diversity.

Thats largely because wealth takes a long time to shift hands

and that's not currently an option, so we have diversity regulations to keep biases people honest.

5:35 PM

You know why black people are on average so much poorer? Not because they work less hard, but because they have significantly lower amounts of hereditary wealth on average

Which is a lingering effect from the time of slavery

It just takes a long time to get rid of

"because they have significantly lower amounts of hereditary wealth on average" that seems to exactly support my generational benefit theory then.

The real divide in america isn't race or gender, its wealth

yes, minorities have less wealth

those are lingering effects

so counter-bias this generation and the next starts out with more equal footing

But wealth is the single biggest influence factor on chances and opportunity

the wealth divide is the product of generations of gender and race bias though. That's certainly can't be ignored.

5:37 PM

methinks countering wealth inequality in and of itself would be more effective at that

So diversity programs put extra wealth in the hands of women & minorities, so they have more wealth for their kids. problem? I think not.

Its not fair to poor white people either to give poor black people extra opportunities

Ahah, but they inherently have more oppertunity, even at places like burger king.

Try and explain to a poor white guy working at minimum wage his entire life with exactly 0 opportunity why it is necessary that a woman in the same situation should get extra help and he shouldn't

Once upon a time, a fox in a jungle found a gun. He killed the lion king with the gun, and became King. Later, an elephant found another gun. Then the fox got scared and declared, "killing fellow animals is wrong, guns are bad, elephant should give up his gun." Then the elephant said, "But hey, I never got a chance to kill the King. I want equality.", and killed the Fox with the gun.

5:39 PM

the simple color of your skin has an effetc on your job interview. sure, it stings, when you are poor and while and see your neighbors getting assistance.

I think counteracting wealth inequality itself would solve the racial bias as a side effect

since that bias manifests mainly in wealth

diversity programs literally do counter wealth inequality. That's a separate issue entirely form your poor-white person issue.

So why not make them anti-poverty programs instead

Those exist. problem?

@MaskedMan I don't follow your analogy in relation to this discussion.

by focusing on minorities in particular you are enacting a different kind of discrimination

And it breeds a massive amount of resentment

5:41 PM

yeah, and that's not inherently a bad thing like you are making it out to be

See thats where I disagree

sure, it breeds resentment, but is it worse than decades of resentment by women and minorities? I think not.

I find any forced inequality of opportunity to be grossly immoral

any

it's much more benign in my opinion.

Well, then you're painting the issue too "black & white. An entire history of black kids growing up without guaranteed food is worse than white people having slightly harder time getting jobs this generation.

That's my opinion though.

people this generation had no part in that though

the 18 year old white kid in the street never opressed anyone

5:43 PM

anyway, gotta run, nice chatting with y;all (except @MaskedMan)

@DoritoStyle Ok, then how about this? For centuries, white people exploited black people, even kept them as slaves. Then one fine day, some "righteous" white people said, racism is wrong, and we should promote equality. Then the Black people yelled at him, "Hey, we never got a chance to exploit you Whites. How is this equality?" Clearer now? Go figure what equality means now.

@Magisch that last point really doesn't matter. the options are 1. inconvenience one generation of white males. 2. allow minorities to suffer another generation and more.

I still disagree, but I see your point

@MaskedMan you're going to have to prove that white people are "exploited" for that argument to fly. At worst I say they're inconvenienced.

ttyl!

@DoritoStyle You totally missed my point. Ah never mind.

5:50 PM

@DoritoStyle Diversity programs tell me that I am too weak and/or stupid to make it on my own and that I need help from my betters or I am doomed. How is that even treating me like a human being?

@DoritoStyle Your options are a false dilemma.

@MaskedMan Another thing people don't get is that in America, at least, only 1.3% of the population ever owned slaves, the first slave holder in America was black, and that Chinese and Irish were slaves in America. Also, more people died in the civil war than ever owned slaves. I think the debt has been paid in blood.

Harvard and MIT are being sued for not putting captions in their free videos

@DoritoStyle My family never had guaranteed food either. In fact, we went hungry a few times when I was young, and I've been homeless. Now, tell me about my white privileged. Oh I also can't afford my diabetes medication, so I've likely got less than 15 years left in this world.

But, since I'm white, I'm the oppressor, right?

@RichardU I think their argument is that disadvantaging white people is an acceptable collateral to correct the inequality faster

At least thats what I gathered from it

Christopher Estep

the "hereditary wealth" line cracked me up earlier too. My ancestors (brothers) came over from england in the 17th century as indentured servants. I'm still looking for my trust fund lol

Its all averages

My parents have hot nothing these days too

And I grew up with no allowance

6:18 PM

@Magisch my grandmother ran away from her job in America, to give you some idea of just how desperately poor my family was when they came to America. She was little more than a slave. My grandfather worked 1 day every two weeks, so he wasn't much better off.

What is the justification of knocking me down any further than I've had to crawl up from myself, LITERALLY out of the gutter.

Christopher Estep

6:29 PM

Every time he comes in here, he starts an argument. It gets really old.

@ChristopherEstep I notice his type are the type who love to say that you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs, but it's never their eggs being broken.

2

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