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12:05 AM
@Dennis Alright, I'm going to trtry running a V program that will delete V's main file. Let me know if you see it disappear.
Oh hey, apparently it isn't a security hole. That's a relief.
 
All source code is owned by root. V is run as the Apache user.
 
I thought I could write arbitrary changes to the main.py script, but I'm unable to.
I can read it though.
 
See above.
 
Well, I'm glad to know it's not as big of a deal as I thought it was.
 
@quartata is say a keyword?
 
12:10 AM
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ It's a function
 
which language?
 
Perl
 
So it's just file access and not arbitrary system calls we have to worry about? That's still a problem (a malicious person could fill the hard drive with garbage), but not as worrysome.
 
Actually it's still pretty worrysome
I could drop something in /home/tio and run it
 
Yes, arbitrary system calls are not possible (that I know of)
 
12:12 AM
Granted, it's not much but still
 
@quartata Except that tio doesn't have a home directory, for precisely that reason.
 
Do you see a file named test.txt in the V folder?
If not, there's nothing to worry about.
 
Monring
 
@Dennis Does it have anywhere else it can write to?
If not that's a little better
 
@DrGreenEggsandIronMan Again, only root has write access to V's folder. You should be able to write to /tmp though.
 
12:15 AM
OK, let me try to write it one more time.
Can you see /tmp/test.txt?
Actually, I can see it, so I think it did work.
 
@quartata Everybody can write to /tmp, and that can't realistically be prevented without sandboxing. Creating a file and executing it are pretty different though. If you can execute arbitrary code, you don't need to create a file.
@DrGreenEggsandIronMan Yeah. Crap.
 
@Dennis I was thinking more along the lines of dropping a C executable
You would need a file for that
 
Without anybody who runs it, it's just a bunch of bytes.
 
Do you want to know how the hole works? Obviously I won't share it publicly, or link to it.
 
Right, but if he can run anything in a shell he can just chmod it.
 
12:17 AM
I can't run anything in a shell.
 
Oh.
 
@quartata chmod only prevents running stuff by accident.
 
Shell access is securely disable from within vim. File access is poorly disabled from my code.
 
@DrGreenEggsandIronMan Well, I re-broke it for now. I'd really like to see if I can sandboxing to work if I don't have to cd into the V folder.
 
OK. I'll look into it, see if I can get it working from a different folder.
 
12:23 AM
This is the error I'm getting.
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/opt/V/main.py", line 74, in <module>
    main()
  File "/opt/V/main.py", line 41, in main
    v_instance = v.V(args)
  File "/opt/V/v.py", line 36, in __init__
    self.nvim_instance.command("source nvim/safe_mode.vim")
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/neovim/api/nvim.py", line 201, in command
    return self.request('vim_command', string, **kwargs)
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/neovim/api/nvim.py", line 129, in request
    res = self._session.request(name, *args, **kwargs)
 
OK, thanks. I thought I had fixed that exact same problem, but apparently not.
 
It's weird though. With the sandbox, it just sits there for a minute without doing anything. That shouldn't happen.
 
So I am seeing that error where nvim fails to source the correct files, but I'm not sure why that's happening since I am exporting an environment variable.
 
12:39 AM
@DrGreenEggsandIronMan V is re-enabled and fully sandboxed.
 
Oh, I was just about to ask you to pull since I fixed the directory problem.
Literally less than a minute ago.
 
Haven't pulled yet. The problem was one my side.
 
Ah ok. Well, if you don't want to have to cd anymore, you can pull.
Which also fixes a bug on my end.
 
The sandbox itself was working fine, but the sudo call created a clean environment which didn't contain the V variable. I don't know why, but V just hangs indefinitely in that case.
 
Huh. Well it shouldn't need the V env var anymore.
 
12:41 AM
After the pull?
 
Running from outside the directory works, but I still need V. Also, it prints /opt/V to STDOUT, which I assume is a leftover from debugging.
 
Whoops, you're right. One more pull?
 
Done and gone.
 
Awesome. Thanks for your help! Sorry about the headache.
 
12:50 AM
No problem. Glad you told me about it before figuring it out the hard way. :)
One thing though: I have to pass absolute paths to code and input file now. Is that intended?
os.chdir(os.path.dirname(os.path.realpath(__file__)))
That explains it.
 
Oh no its not. Sorry about that. I'll fix it later tonight. ( can't get to it now)
 
Not an issue for me. I just though you'd like to know.
 
@Dennis Are you going to try to get sandboxing working for all languages?
 
Eventually, yeah. I have to enable it manually for each language though.
 
hey, I'm looking to write a more formal spec for Elegance. Anybody know of any languages that do it well (easy to read, while being specific and clear)?
 
1:08 AM
I have noticed it runs a little slower, but it's worth it for security. :)
 
@Dennis You haven't heard of "beautitud"?
then what is the noun of "bello/bella" in your dialect?
 
That's not what beatitud means. I've asked my wife as well (she was born here), and she hadn't heard of it.
The noun of bello is belleza.
 
where is here?
 
beatitud means beatitude in English, which is a Christian term.
(which might explain why I've never heard of it)
 
it's primarily a Christian term but does have meaning outside of Christianity
beatitude, or "supreme blessedness" iirc
 
1:17 AM
Then again, my wife was raised Catholic...
 
@Dennis oh, right
How did I forget that lol
 
Technically, blessed is also a Christian/religious term.
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ It's right here, I swear.
 
technically :P
 
Many religious terms get misused eventually. I oftentimes catch myself saying/writing oh god, directed at no god in particular.
 
yea. I'd personally call such terms "adapted" or perhaps "deadened" in a religious context.
 
1:22 AM
Even worse, goodbye is adiós in Spanish, which literally means to god.
There's no proper substitute in a formal conversation.
 
Anyone help me golf this?
 
is that a real problem ? :P what it literally mean(s|t) is somewhat irrelevant--as is the case with idioms etc. Taking it literally is rather antagonistic to the construct of language
 
^
@Dennis the etymology of a word has little to do with the meaning of the word
goodbye in French is "adieu" (to God) also
 
I've never heard that term
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ :o
well, granted that we say "au revoir" more often
 
1:27 AM
I've always used "au revoir"
ye, XD
 
I'm not saying it's a problem, just that there is no clear distinction between religious/non-religious terms. I say ojalá (hopefully) more frequently than adiós, which literally means may Allah will it.
 
or, in-sha-Allah
 
context is the distinction...
"I have to go now." "Goodbye!" "MAY ALLAH WILL IT!"
 
English borrowed many terms from Arabic also
Allah is just the Arabic word for God
 
1:29 AM
some words that starts with al- comes from Arabic
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ "some"
 
Well, I haven't heard someone use beatitude in a non-religious context. But then again, I haven't heard anyone use it in a religious context, so that doesn't really prove anything.
@LeakyNun almost comes from Arabic?
 
@Dennis yeah. when you here beatitude in a non-religious context, it's usually someone wanting to sound smart :P
 
@Dennis and I haven't heard it at all, I just assumed it means belleza lol
@Dennis no, I mean some words that starts with al-
he tried to give me a counter-example
 
1:30 AM
I was being stupid :p
it was hard but I managed it
 
But almost starts with al...
 
@Dennis ok, lemme change the almost to some
 
So almost every word that starts with al- comes from Arabic, but almost doesn't. Got it.
 
@Dennis bingo
 
1:31 AM
albeit
 
albeit = al(though) + be + it
 
always
 
just stop giving counter-examples lol
 
I found some that are probably pro to your cause (found with online grep thingy)
Al Aqsa Al Bianchi Al Borak Al Fatah Al Geiberger Al Grospiron Al Hasa Al Hgaboskey Al Hillah Al Hufuf Al Husseini Al Iafrate Al Khoury Al Koneytra Al Madinah Al Mansrah Al Marj Al Qantara Al Rifaie Mosque Al Ryadh Al Said Al Secord Al Sirat Al araf Al bali Al chiba Al nasi Al niyat Al rischa Al tais Al tarf Al-Gazel Al-Iskandariyah
 
@Dennis How would you translate "ya" in "ya deja de dar contraejemplos"?
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ alchemy, alcohol, algebra, ...
 
1:33 AM
@LeakyNun kk :3
almanac?
 
@LeakyNun already
 
> late Middle English: via Old French and medieval Latin from Spanish Arabic al-manāḵ ‘the calendar’.
which means yes
 
@LeakyNun oo where did you get this?
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ google "etymology of almanac"
@Dennis I translated it as "just", is it alright?
 
@LeakyNun I mean the textual representation
oh wait
it's there nvm
 
1:36 AM
@LeakyNun Don't think so. just would be sólo in this context.
 
@Dennis eh, alright
 
Yeah, already fits perfectly.
8
Q: What exactly does "already" mean when used in the imperative mood?

Klitos KyriacouThis is a question about American English usage of the word "already". As a UK resident I don't completely understand when I hear Americans give commands like "Stop it already!" In the UK the word already is not normally used in the imperative mood and the sentence I've just quoted would leave an...

 
@Dennis but it's too long
 
I can translate and I can golf, but I'm not sure about combining both skills...
 
lol
 
1:38 AM
@Dennis just translate it to jelly then use string compression :P
 
Now that's an idea I can work with. :P
 
professors will love it
 
Currently downloading a big-endian VM. (Why is my internet so slow? ._.)
 
"What language is the paper written in??" "Jelly" "... what on earth"
 
heh
 
1:40 AM
@Dennis because the VM isn't golfed enough
 
That might indeed be the problem. I don't know if qcow2 files are compressed.
Also, moo!
 
Yes.
 
isn't that an image encoding thing
 
Mainly used by QEMU.
File system image, yeah.
 
1:43 AM
ah ok
 
Anyone help me golf this?
Alguien me ayuda a golfear eso?
Quelqu'un m'aide a golfer ca?
 
lol
 
no, no-o, non
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ what is no-o?
 
1:45 AM
I assume #2 is spanish.
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ but what is no-o?
 
if I don't know the spanish for a word, I just use the english and tack a -o on it :P
 
lollll
 
If you are calculating the Big-O on a piece of code, what kind of analysis are you performing?
"speed analysis"?
 
@NathanMerrill complexity
 
1:46 AM
Hm, compressing the moo file before downloading did help, but not enough to restart the download.
 
ah, that's the word, thanks
 
@LeakyNun Well, that was a jarring transition.
 
googles "jarring"
 
jarring is like abrupt, but more so, and usually more negative.
 
2:18 AM
if I have «...» for a string in a golfing language, should the quotes be required to match?
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ how could they not match?
 
Update on the whole voting system thing from a few days ago.
(yesterday?)
I've tried to contact the "Center for Election Science" to talk about volunteering... no response yet.
 
2 days ago I think
 
@MᴀʀsUʟᴛᴏʀ Like, should ««x»» be "«x" or "«x»"
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Is this for raw Jolf strings?
If so absolutely «x»
(not that hard to do at any rate :P)
 
2:27 AM
@quartata actually no, but I might want to make sure it's like that in jolf
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Neither really. What would «x»» give you?
 
@Dennis well, the behaviour is that a mismatched » would quote everything from the beginning of the line to that
 
But the »'s in ««x»» aren't mismatched; they're nested.
 
Also I think I've settled on approval voting as being the best system to use/promote. My initial concern was that it doesn't strictly obey the Condorcet Criterion, but apparently computer models indicate that it elects the Condorcet winner almost every single time. The main reason I see to use it instead of a full "ranked" system is that ranked systems open the door to "illogical strategic voting."
In which voters tend to dishonestly rank minor candidates they don't like above major candidates they don't like, in an attempt to hurt the major candidate, despite the fact that voting dishonestly in this way can only ever hurt the election outcome.
 
oooh, voting systems!
(should have gotten here earlier)
 
2:35 AM
@Dennis yse. if I required them to match, that would yield the string «x». if I didn't, that would yield the string ««x» by manner of implicit quoting
 
hmmm, it seem like approval voting is first past the post, except it allows for ties
 
@NathanMerrill TL;DR I'm actually trying to do some political activism to promote better voting systems (given the current state of the American political system, I believe the population is receptive to change).
@NathanMerrill I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.
 
@PhiNotPi It's really tough to change the voting structure, because that nearly always removes current political leaders
@PhiNotPi well, it looks like first past the post, except multiple votes, right (making sure I understand)
 
Approval voting is "mark the candidates that you approve, candidate with highest percent approval wins." Since it allows voters to evaluate each candidate independently of the others, it fulfills "independence of irrelevant alternatives" (meaning no spoiler effect or vote splitting).
 
Have you heard of Baker v Carr?
 
2:44 AM
@PhiNotPi When would that not satisfy the criterion thingy?
 
@NathanMerrill why?
 
@PhiNotPi its a case where, in essence, the state had refused to redraw districts because that would put many of them out of office. (Thankfully/Horrifyingly, the supreme court deemed that they would redraw the lines)
and, while I definitely agree that a better system is in order, simply having the public on your side doesn't always mean that you'll get those in office to go along with it
 
@HelkaHomba Consider the following situation:
Voter 1 approves of candidate X and Y (but slightly favors Y over X). Voter 2 approves of candidate X but disapproves of candidate Y (thus favors X over Y). Voter 3 disapproves of bot candidates X and Y (but hates Y less). Candidate X wins even though 2 of the 3 voters actually prefer Y over X.
 
3:00 AM
@PhiNotPi So what's wrong with ranking preferences 1,2,3,...
 
In that way, it fails the Condorcet criterion. The good news is that voters don't act like that in real life.
@HelkaHomba Then you fail the independence of irrelevant alternatives criterion.
Meaning that the introduction of additional candidates alters to ordering of existing candidates.
Also, in a ranked system like that, you could have 5 districts that each declare candidate G the local winner, but combining the 5 results causes candidate K to win instead.
 
0
Q: Prime Wednesdays

NonlinearFruitPrime Wednesdays Your task is to count the number of Wednesdays that fall on a prime day of the month in a particular year. For instance, 7-13-16 is a prime Wednesday. For consistency use the Gregorian calendar for all dates. Input The input to your program/function will be a year (eg 2016) an...

1
Q: CAPTCHA Modified by Evil Mathematician

NonlinearFruitCAPTCHA Modified by Evil Mathematician I accidentally incurred the wrath of an eccentric passive-aggressive mathematician. As part of his demented idea of payback, he modified the CAPTCHA system on my favorite website. Up until now, it would just ask a moderately challenging math question, like ...

 
Most of those are also "fringe results" that only really arise in theory (aka, voters would basically have to cooperate to trick either approval voting or ranked voting in the methods listed above).
 
approval voting is simpler (for the voter) than ranking
for example, I didn't really like deciding whether I wanted to vote one mod over the other in our recent election
 
Hey @Dennis
Why are duplicate questions on this SE a thing?
 
3:11 AM
The main issue with ranked voting is a more psychological one: voters are much more likely to dishonestly rank a candidate than dishonestly approve a candidate. Consider the scenario in which voters want to "punish" the other major candidates by putting them at the bottom of their ranking list. This can lead to inaccurate results (sometimes nobody's major candidate wins, and some minor candidate everyone overlooked wins instead).
 
If I post a challenge that already exists, let it be. It's probably because the old challenge hasn't been active for a very long time and/or because I want to give other users a chance.
 
@DmitryKudriavtsev That's not something usually done. I expect it would be marked as a dupe
 
Everyone can still participate in the old challenge. Except in some special cases (cops and robbers, king of the hill, etc.), challenges are never over.
 
?
It wa
It was
 
was? when?
 
3:14 AM
0
Q: Calculate the number e

Dmitry KudriavtsevFrom Wikipedia: The number e is an important mathematical constant that is the base of the natural logarithm. It is approximately equal to 2.71828, and is the limit of (1 + 1/n)n as n approaches infinity. Challenge Calculate the number e to 15 digits after the decimal point. This means t...

 
The "old" challenge is from June in this case.
 
really the only time when we don't mark it as a dup is if the old challenge was poorly written
 
Also, tbh, your challenge wasn't very clear. It's a perfect example of an Do X without Y challenge, which are very difficult to specify clearly.
 
but then we mark the old challenge as a dup of the new one
 
@Dennis You mean the Do X without Y challenge.
 
3:17 AM
@DmitryKudriavtsev What's your point? That was marked as a dupe.
 
My point is that it shouldn't be
 
Well, it's how this site and the entire network work. You can propose an alternative on Meta, but be prepared to get downvoted.
 
@LeakyNun my mission has been fulfilled :3
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ lol
 
@DmitryKudriavtsev You can take it up on Meta if you like, though it's been discussed plenty before: meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/search?q=duplicate+is%3Aq
 
3:20 AM
ok sure
Question to everyone. Why is disallowing golf languages so badly recieved? All I want is a question that gets real answers, not someone winning within the first 5 minutes with their V, Jelly, 05AB1E, or J answer. I just want this site to have some real competition, not just a select few people winning.
 
@DmitryKudriavtsev because its really tough to define a golfing language
 
@DmitryKudriavtsev everyone can learn golflangs
 
@DmitryKudriavtsev Because it's unfair and there's no reason to.
 
also, there are quite a few people that have learned golfing languages
 
Don't pay attention to the accepted answer; it's meaningless. Competition among more verbose languages happens just as much.
 
3:28 AM
@DmitryKudriavtsev And, if your challenge is good, you can disallow golflangs implicitly, just like in this challenge
 
@DmitryKudriavtsev J isn't a golfing language, silly :3
 
@Doorknob
 
semantics: if I have a one-to-many relationship, should that be defined in the one or the many (or both)?
aka, if a Customer has Orders, should the Order define the Customer or the Customer define the Orders?
 
@NathanMerrill what is the context?
 
3:38 AM
@LeakyNun language design
 
eh, int f(int n){return n+1,n+2;}?
 
whatever
 
@poi830 eyy Ostrich
 
0
Q: Number to String

NowayzNumber to String Instructions Convert a signed 32-bit integer to a string without any string formatting calls. Negative numbers must include leading -. Score Calculation Shortest byte length; Tie breaker by efficiency (execution time)

 
4:13 AM
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Numeric input -n fails for floats in Yup
 
@LeakyNun o_o I wonder why
well
they fail for positive too
 
Other chatrooms are generous with their pin stars:
in Language Overflow, 7 mins ago, by Helka Homba
Can I give y'all a random poll - http://www.strawpoll.me/10843492
 
Regarding other stars, though...the last three days of chat transcript have five stars on three messages.
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Why don't you use binary?
 
@LeakyNun I can? o-O
 
4:23 AM
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Didn't you see my comment?
 
@HelkaHomba o_o wat that was pinned
 
user image
5
screw programming I think I should become photographer :D
 
@Downgoat The horizon is fuzzy
I mean nice photo :.)
 
@Downgoat Did you just take that?
 
4:30 AM
@Downgoat :D I love photography
I am resisting the temptation to upload random pictures now -.-
 
@Downgoat Ah, beautiful.
 
@DrGreenEggsandIronMan yup
@HelkaHomba >_> it's hard to hold camera still with hooves
 
Nice!
I'm really bad at photography.
 
@DrGreenEggsandIronMan :D
@DrGreenEggsandIronMan I recommend reading top questions at photography.SE, that's what I did >_>
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ random pictures of goats? I have to resist that temptation all day :P
 
@Downgoat no, random photography pictures :P
 
4:36 AM
oh :|
 
I couldn't resist.
wait that's ugly lemme crop it :P
it commits "don't center things" sin but whatever
 
it commits a sin coz your hands have tan?
 
@Optimizer the real question is why is there a hand and not a claw. Is conor wearing a human costume?
 
dragons can transform into humans anytime
 
4:44 AM
it's true
 
^ there is your citation
 
I used to RP as a dragon (this dude <---) who could shapeshift :P
which is obviously me
 
@Downgoat Is my explanation of the <duplicate> operator clear?
 
o_o I star a message and another message comes on to the starboard
 
5:13 AM
O_O I didn't star a message and 2 other messages came on to the starboard...
 
see my point? .
 
:( Github is down.
 
@Optimizer I mean, in response to.
a message that was previously starred and already on the board but knocked off
 
how many stars?
 
so someone could have made it from 5 to 6 na .. ?
 
yes, but no other messages fell off the board
it just came back :/
 
@DrGreenEggsandIronMan :o wat ;_____;
 
And I was actually working on docks for once.
Oh well, maybe this is an excuse to keep pushing it off and never doing it.
 
5:38 AM
github is back \o/
wait wat github is borked ._>
question: should ['a', 'b', 'c'].sum return 'abc' or error?
XD
 
@Downgoat 'abc'--it should be equivalent to reduction over (+)
 
speaking of that i need to make reduce brb
 
you have reduce technically
fn.insert(func)
except this leaves you with the array on a singleton
 
@Downgoat What does [2]+3 return?
 
@Doorknob Why is it unfair? It levels the playing fiend.
 
5:51 AM
@LeakyNun Runtime Error
 
@Downgoat what does [2]+[3] return?
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ refresh my memory on what a singleton is?
@LeakyNun Runtime Error
 
@Downgoat halp how concatenate list i trie for 30 minutes
 
@Downgoat a set/array containing one member
 
5:52 AM
@LeakyNun do:
const concatlist = (l1, l2) -> {
    for (var i = 0; i < l2.len; i += 1) {
        l1.push(l2[i])
    }
    l1
}
 
@Downgoat dahell
 
._.
 
@Downgoat you should overload + to be list concatenation
 
@LeakyNun I think you spending so much time with golfing langs you forgot C-like langs ._.
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Why is your username in small caps?
 
5:55 AM
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ like [a] + b or just [a] + [b]?
@DmitryKudriavtsev because small caps is best caps
 
@Downgoat Is your username based off that famous challenge or just for fun?
 
@Downgoat I think you should overload +
 
@DmitryKudriavtsev the famous challenge is based off of me.
 
@DmitryKudriavtsev the challenge was actually based off my username. goats are inside joke and so I did "downgoat"
2 mins ago, by Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ
@Downgoat you should overload + to be list concatenation
ninja'd
 
5:57 AM
OK
 
Downgoat = Conor's bot?
 
@Downgoat wutever
 
What do you guys think of reposting old challenges?
No one wants to respond to a challenge from 2011, even if it was edited.
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ HOW COULD YOU DO THIS ;_______;
 
also if we reposted them newcomers could actually have a chance.
and also, we wouldn't run out of challenges
 
5:59 AM
@Downgoat that's actually bob. he's the outsider of the family
 
@DmitryKudriavtsev link
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ ;___; PLS TEL BOB TO STAHP EATING MY BRETHREN
 
?
What link?
 
@Downgoat next time I see him :3
 
@DmitryKudriavtsev no, not a good idea
 
5:59 AM
@DmitryKudriavtsev to the challenge from 2011
 
I don't see any point to doing that
 

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