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11:00 PM
Oh, I've only done the TGV in France and from Paris to London.
 
And please feel welcome to drop by if you have the chance.
(Let's not have my town in this chat for posterity.)
Thalys is like the international TGV @Ted.
 
I'll have to learn about it, thanks, @Lord.
 
Any time @Ted. I always find it very interesting that while e.g. we only talk through some largely anonymous chatroom, I've gained great respect for you.
I consider it one of the best things of the internet.
Just like the course you are teaching these undergrads.
 
Thanks so much for that. Likewise I for you. I've tangled with a few people on MSE who rather dislike me, but overall it's been a good experience.
 
Thanks, @Ted. It means more to me to hear that from you than I would've expected.
 
11:07 PM
OK, the mutual admiration can cease, and someone should get back to serious math? :) DogAteMy usually has something good up his sleeve.
 
:P
I recently asked this one on main.
 
@TedShifrin Someone asked a question about Lagrangians on MSE, and then the same exact question came up here in chat, so I gave the same answer.
 
I'm way too illogical for that query.
@MikeM: So do you know whose class you're solving the problems for?
I don't think Mike Usher is teaching his symplectic geometry/topology this semester.
 
Not a clue.
Looks like a Belgian school.
 
I have enough distinctive problems in my undergrad diff geo text that I can surprisingly often tell when someone's asking things from it. They usually get all defensive/coy, too.
Ah ...
 
BTW, @MikeM, Balarka's newest homework is to prove how a planimeter works.
Oh, don't we know someone here who's at that uni?
 
@MikeMiller Ooh, I actually have friends doing a PhD there.
 
I don't think so, @Ted.
 
hi
if $f$ is integrable must it be a function?
 
Hi. If $f$ is not a function, what does it mean for it to be integrable?
 
11:15 PM
@TedShifrin Hmm, I just noted I proved #15 only for $n = k$. The idea is that $\omega_i$ live in $(\Bbb R^n)^*$, so I can write $\omega_i = \sum_j a_{ij} dx_j$, and $\sum_i dx_i \wedge \omega_i = 0$ says $\sum_{i, j} a_{ij} dx_i \wedge dx_j = 0$. If both $i, j$ move from $1$ to $n$ (which it is for $n = k$), then I can just switch things around to get $i < j$ and coeffs of $dx_i \wedge dx_j$ in the sum be $a_{ij} - a_{ji}$. That expression being zero forces these to be zero, nope?
 
@Ted: I just learned from Dick Gross that there's a new heuristic from Poonen, Stoll, Wood, that would imply there are only finitely many elliptic curves of rank greater than 21.
 
For $k < n$ it gets a bit uckier but I think the coefficients $a_{ij}$ for $j$ more than $k$ should become $0$ during the process.
 
Sorry, Park-Poonen-Voight-Wood.
 
@MikeMiller: That's a nice result.
 
Yes they should @Balarka.
 
11:17 PM
@MikeMiller This sounds very nice.
 
It's not a result. If it was, it would be more than nice.
 
I really have no intuition for what that means, @MikeM, so I can't be surprised or impressed.
 
@TedShifrin Maybe spare me the write-out for tomorrow morning? :)
Too sleepy, so prone to error.
 
Go to bed, @Balarka. Dream of planimeters and ants in force fields.
 
 
11:18 PM
I guess @quid would know about this better than I would :)
 
Heya @BenjaminR
 
Why do you say it's an important exercises by the way? It seemed like easy to prove (although that doesn't mean much).
Curious.
@MikeMiller Ah, heuristic.
 
@Lord_Farin Doesn't integrability just mean its integral is finite or locally finite?
 
I say it's important because it's called the Cartan lemma. It proves, among lots of other things, that the second fundamental form of a hypersurface is a symmetric bilinear map.
 
@quid Thanks, I'll see tomorrow if I can still make sense of it.
 
11:20 PM
(And, more generally, for any submanifold of a Riemannian manifold, a symmetric normal-bundle valued bilinear form.)
 
Oh, cool.
 
@TedShifrin Whadda do, nephew
 
How did I end up a nephew? :P
 
When I'm done with calculus I got to learn differential geometry of curves and surfaces at some point.
 
@user19405892 Don't only functions have "integrals"?
 
11:21 PM
It's a ghetto expression
;-)
 
Or what things do you know of that have integrals but are not functions?
 
How'd we end up there, @BenjaminR? Just curious.
@Lord: Things that are functions a.e. have integrals ... and things that take on infinite values, too.
 
Just watching too much Thug Notes on youtube. Check it out, it's very funny and insightful.
 
LOL, that explains your sudden liking for mathematics, @BenjaminR :D
 
@Lord_Farin It just seems that something that is not a function we can still take its area under the curve.
 
11:24 PM
You can find areas of regions bounded by things other than graphs of functions, @user19405892. (And analogously in higher dimensions.)
But ultimately it still boils down to integrating functions eventually.
 
I am wondering then why integrability is defined only for functions
 
I would generally call those functions too, @Ted.
Whether $f(x) = \infty$ or not doesn't change that for me.
 
We should teach people better how to do Mayer-Vietoris.
 
@MikeMiller I am not familiar with the details. But certainly it is very intriguing.
 
So you propose a definition that you want, @user19405892.
 
11:25 PM
That question shouldn't be one that arises, say.
 
There is an older blog post about it by Ellenberg quomodocumque.wordpress.com/2014/07/20/are-ranks-bounded
 
@MikeM: It may have nothing to do with teaching. With all the topology self-study going on around here, who knows.
 
@user19405892 I will have to go to bed now; I'm sorry for not following through.
 
Could we define integrability for things that aren't functions?
 
People so often forget to choose open sets while doing VKT of MV.
 
11:26 PM
Bye @Ted @Mike @quid.
 
*or
 
@quid You are more analytic, yes?
@BalarkaSen That's inconsequential for most cases. What people don't realize is why it's inconsequential for most cases.
 
@Lord_Farin see you !
 
@user19405892: I'm asking you to propose what you think something should be. All notions of an integral that I know are for integrals of functions, and one uses those to compute areas/volumes/masses, etc., of more general regions.
 
And the answer to that is "Regular neighborhoods exist in all the cases you're trying to write down"...
 
11:27 PM
@MikeMiller more combinatorial.
 
Ah, even spookier
 
Fair enough.
 
You mean we don't do MV or VK with things that are not ANR's? :D
 
I try to avoid it, myself.
But there seems to be a general taste for pathologies around here.
 
In my research life, I've never used either.
 
11:29 PM
Aren't ANR's weaker than having mapping cylinder neighborhoods, or even better, nbhds with homotopy extension properties?
Oops. Back to calc.
 
We have that $\displaystyle \int_{a}^b f(x) dx = \lim_{\text{max} \Delta_{k} \to 0} \sum_{k=1}^n f(x_k^*) \Delta x_k$ and a function $f$ is said to be integrable on a finite closed interval $[a,b]$ if the limit exists and does not depend on partitions or on the choice of points $x_k^*$.
 
Not only is that not calculus, it's also sickening.
 
I don't see why this definition wouldn't work if $f$ wasn't a function
 
Then what would $f(x_k^*)$ mean?
 
11:32 PM
@TedShifrin What are VK and ANR?
 
DogAteMy: Van Kampen and absolute neighborhood retract.
Isn't it the middle of the night there?
 
Yes, it is.
 
You're a horrible influence, Balarka.
 
I am not sure whether I should take it as an offense or as a compliment.
 
11:35 PM
Let's go with the first one
 
Go dream about ants, Balarka.
 
Then my response is: "shrug".
 
@TedShifrin "…if the limit…does not depend on partitions or on the choice of points $x_k^*$ or on the points $f(x_k^*)$", perhaps
Maybe $f$ is a multifunction, and we just choose something for each $x_k^*$
and we hope the choice doesn't matter
 
No, the integral of a multifunction will definitely not make sense in this way.
 
No? What if it's single-valued everywhere but a nowhere-dense subset?
 
11:39 PM
Are there already any today's primary results?
 
@AkivaWeinberger Do you have to participate in every conversation? Talking about weird ideas when someone is struggling with integrals themselves is actively damaging pedagogy.
 
The OP stopped engaging, @MikeM, so I'm not shushing DogAteMy ...
 
Study some (co)homology. Much more constructive way to spend your time, @AkivaWeinberger.
 
Fine... I'm out.
See ya.
 
…sorry
 
11:41 PM
I still vote for learning multivariable calculus/analysis over cohomology. But no one listens to me.
 
Byes.
 
Bubye, @MikeM.
 
I should actually just sleep
 
Yes, you should.
Ponder what you said to me, btw. If a function is discontinuous only on a nowhere-dense set, can you prove the Riemann integral exists in the first place?
 
multivariable calc -> electromagnetism -> cohomology isn't a bad route
 
11:42 PM
@TedShifrin I am listening to you!
 
@MikeMiller In my defense, I was trying to help user19405892
 
Back to that Bamberg/Sternberg book, @Semiclassic :P
 
I honestly don't know what @user19405892 is trying to address, since he won't tell me.
I"m going to go grade algebraic topology homeworks. Bubye.
 
hi
 
11:43 PM
Today I tried to offend @SemiC by saying swirly instead of circulation.
Points for me.
 
?
 
riight
 
@TedShifrin Have fun!
@Semiclassical I think there was an SMBC comic about stokes' theorem which used the terminology. I saw it ages ago, but it stuck with me.
 
i think i know which one you have in mind
 
11:46 PM
ah, i'm wrong
 
Now I know what that guy actually means. Funny enough, my intuitive explanation of Green's theorem sounds exactly like that. A bit more dignified, probably.
 
"little swirlies sum up to big swirly" or something of that sort.
 
which really isn't the same kind of thing, but i like the punchline
any comic that reacts to the Kempner series with "what the balls" is good stuff
 
HMM I don't understand something Our code C correspond to ideal $(x^n - 1)F_q[x] \subset C \subset F_q[x]$ why is this true ? a code C is of the form $C = a_0 + a_1x + ... + a_{n - 1}x^{n - 1}$
@BalarkaSen ?
 
11:49 PM
@Semiclassical lol
 
though you could probably summarize one aspect of the Kempner series pretty easily: "Almost all big numbers have a nine in them."
 
why is that inclusion true ?
 
@Adeek Maybe ask someone else, don't really feel like talking algebra today.
 
ok
@Semiclassical would you like to answer?
 
nope.
 
11:59 PM
nvm I uderstood my question above.
 
Ah. People running from algebra.
Has it come to this?
 

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