Not a bar, but plays one on TV

12:40 AM

ok, there's conversation going on in the mainroom, so I'll ask this here. It's been forever since I've bountied something. Anyone have a question they think needs more attention?

nitsua60

@waxeagle I'd go with "anything not 3.0/3.5/PF/4/5," but then I'm a crusty old fart =)

wax eagle

@nitsua60 i'm totally fine with that.

nitsua60

@waxeagle I misread this one as "Is BESW suitable for character optimization?" I think that would be a pretty excellent question =)

3

StackExchange

0

Q: Class option for archery + botany + potions

I have a new player who wants to play a half-elf who is: Very intelligent Good at archery Makes potions Knows about plants and botany in order to make potions etc We are starting at first level. I cannot think of a class and skill+feat options that fit this well. Help?

BESW

@nitsua60 My build is too messy, there's no way to optimise me now.

wax eagle

12:53 AM

@nitsua60 whaddya think, maybe 1000 to see if we can coax the negatory?

oh, darn, can't start at 1000

500 it is then.

any other candidates? I have 2 more I can start.

nitsua60

"Coax the Negatory" would be a good name for the album playing in the background while various members of B, E, S, and W perform experiments and exercises designed to optimize each other.

I don't think the Medieval Low Orbit Ion Cannon's quite seen enough action. </tongueincheek>

wax eagle

@nitsua60 ...yeah no. I started to read that one the other day before it blew up, didn't make it through and now it will take probably 2 days

nitsua60

@waxeagle It may be a bit gauche to suggest one of my own, but I've always hoped this one would get some answer that addressed both (a) being a player and (b) the unique--or at least unusual--environment of an AL table.

wax eagle

@nitsua60 I don't mind. I basically decided after I hit 20k I'd be much much more liberal with bounties, and I've kinda fallen down on that. (And 5e massively inflated my rep)

nitsua60

I star things that I mean to bounty later, but when I go back to my favorites it's not all that clear to me what I was thinking....

(I wish I could make some sort of private annotation on a post.)

Miniman

1:10 AM

@waxeagle I had a similar realization lately, so I've been bountying answers that I think are the best answer but haven't been accepted or got the most upvotes.

I don't like to put a bounty on a question where there's not an answer I definitely want to bounty, because the automated rewarding system is dumb.

nitsua60

@Miniman Ditto both of those.

trogdor

I would have to agree, and all I have ever done is just observe how the bounty system works (and of course asked people)

it does not seem worth it in any case where you can't be sure it goes where you would want

Shalvenay

sadly, I only have two questions I want bountied -- one is closed because of toolrec, and the other is really hard

trogdor

especially since the rep doesn't go to anyone at all if un-awarded after a certain amount of time

Miniman

@trogdor I'm ok with that, but if I answered the BESM question, and no one else did before the end of the bounty period, I would get 250 rep. Wax would be unable to prevent that even though my answer would be complete ****.

@Shalvenay Really hard sounds like a good reason for a bounty, aside from the aforementioned problem with automated rewarding.

trogdor

1:15 AM

@Miniman yeah, that doesn't sound like it makes it better XD

@Miniman also, I would personally prefer the rep I permanently gave up in a bounty actually like,... did something

but it isn't technically guaranteed to if no one earns it

nitsua60

@Miniman only if it gets a positive score, I believe.

trogdor

I don't so much mind losing the rep, but losing it , in certain cases, for basically no reason,.....

nitsua60

I offered a bounty on this one which garnered it an answer. You'll note there's no +X next to that answer!

Miniman

@nitsua60 Ah, yeah. Minimum of 2.

@nitsua60 I don't find that entirely reassuring, because the community's voting habits are...unreliable.

trogdor

@nitsua60 that bounty was not given for that answer though

Miniman

1:19 AM

@trogdor That's his point.

nitsua60

Well, at least total crap won't get the auto-award.

Miniman

@nitsua60 Yeah.

wax eagle

@Miniman it has to get upvotes

trogdor

@Miniman yeah,.. but I just mean that his point isn't the same as your point

nitsua60

[I'm not sure who we're talking about anymore =) ]

wax eagle

1:20 AM

@Miniman well...I could but that would be modabuse

trogdor

@nitsua60 I think Miniman and I just misunderstood each other a little is all

nitsua60

In any case, the auto-award can go to not-great answers, but probably won't go to total-crap.

wax eagle

exactly

@Shalvenay feel free to link the hard one :)

trogdor

mm, it is good that at least it doesn't go to anything without more than one upvote

and I can't claim to have a better,... way for it to work

system

that's the word XD

Shalvenay

@waxeagle -- have a monster of a question:

7

Q: How do I retrain myself to see characters as people and not systems?

Background Some of my previous questions (see What should I do when other players refuse to engage with my character's flaw? and Excessively clever characters vs. narrativist RP?) have alluded to my severe trouble with classical roleplaying and story structure -- for as much as I try to RP, I fi...

character-creation roleplaying problem-players story freeform

wax eagle

1:23 AM

@Shalvenay that's an interesting one. What's unsatisfying about the current answers?

Shalvenay

@waxeagle I haven't found one that works satisfactorily for me yet

@waxeagle I still find myself struggling with the characterization and scope issues involved -- I've been able to make small improvements to the character that provoked that question, but the underlying problem remains

wax eagle

@Shalvenay Totally get that, and I'm reading through to see if I have any thoughts having played with you :)

BESW

7:36 AM

Miura fold

The Miura fold (ミウラ折り, Miura-ori) is a method of folding a flat surface such as a sheet of paper into a smaller area. The fold is named for its inventor, Japanese astrophysicist Koryo Miura. The crease patterns of the Miura fold form a tessellation of the surface by parallelograms. In one direction, the creases lie along straight lines, with each parallelogram forming the mirror reflection of its neighbor across each crease. In the other direction, the creases zigzag, and each parallelogram is the translation of its neighbor across the crease. Each of the zigzag paths of creases consists solely...

BESW

10:06 AM

@Mala What's new?

@Mala It's much less dramatic!

Mala

Not sure if that's good or bad.

trogdor

it certainly isn't the kind of thing that should be getting a previously withheld up vote, but they happened so close together XD

@Mala it's probably good, less drama might mean less flaming/bad feelings over it

which would be a step towards progress I would think

Mala

Well, personally, I feel that there are some changes needed, I felt unhappy with how questions with RAW were treated and if everyone just goes back to normal, nothing will happen =/

BESW

@Mala A couple of the bigger personalities in the topic sat down in chat and worked out where the actual problems are and how they can focus on those. Keep an eye open for a couple new metas soon: a new one to find a working definitions of the concept of RAW (rather than the tag), and one for workshopping pre-made comments on all sorts of matters to help set a standard for site interaction.

trogdor

it could be bad in a horrible worst case scenario where everyone just ignores that it happened and everyone involved/or other people make similar dramatic mistakes

but I choose for now to think that less drama is probably a good sign

Mala

10:13 AM

I think plain RAW questions are actually the best fit for the format, because there are clear correct and incorrect answers (like in other SEs)

BESW

With those tucked away, SSD's current low-intervention proposal is, it's widely felt, likely to make progress.

Mala

while for most role-as-in-not-roll-playing and narrative questions, there is much more leeway and multiple correct answers and all comes down to choice.

BESW

I agree that RAW questions are probably the easiest to identify as fitting the Stack mode. I'm very happy, however, that the Stack's "back it up" principle also allows for experience-based answers where written materials are insufficient or inappropriate.

Mala

ok, that sounds like light on the horizon

I would agree with back it up but .. you can't really back it up. Personally, I feel it just doesn't work.

Since you cannot verify the 'backed up' parts and draw your own conclusions

BESW

That's where trust and good faith comes in, and usually it works; when querents are helped to describe their situation, and answerers are careful to check if their experiences seem relevant to the querent's problem, we have a LOT of success stories.

Mala

10:19 AM

It's not about trust

BESW

It works enough, at least, that the signal far outweighs the noise in most areas.

Mala

It's about facts and interpretation of those facts/experiences, and while I trust the people to offer correct facts in general, their interpretation of those facts and experiences might not be .. well, other people might judge the same differently

BESW

The Stack's "one best answer" ideal is just that: an ideal. If it were actually possible, the Stack wouldn't keep other answers around. What we've got is a collection of good answers which each strive toward that Platonic ideal, and in the striving achieve excellence.

This means users can sift through well-sorted collections of good answers to find the ones that they like.

That's why, for example, we have a badge for a highly upvoted answer that is not the accepted one.

Mala

Yeah but this is a workaround for the problem that there is no 'correct' answer for the soft questions

BESW

I disagree; it's built into the Stack concept itself from the beginning, pre-dating "soft" Stacks.

Mala

10:23 AM

I mean, I am not against them, I just feel those are not the ideal fit for the format. And if in this context, there's a lot of 'mod aggro' (exaggerated) against RAW, that made my rpg.se experience worse than it could be.

For me, it's fine to have 80% soft content if the 20% i am interested in is not treated like a second class citizen

BESW

There reason it works at all, I think, is that it's rooted in actionable solutions to real challenges. Stacks like Science Fiction & Fantasy have much more difficulty because there's little actionable about their answers. The "actionable" bit keeps us rigorous on even the softest of allowed questions--and there are plenty of questions we can't allow at all because it's recognisably a bad fit.

trogdor

@BESW yeah, accepted answers are great, but they only reflect one person liking the answer better than the others

BESW

Frankly, I find "explain the intersection of this rule" questions to be a very limited application of the site's potential, most of the time. They don't pull on the experience of the site's users as active users of the subject; they demonstrate thorough study.

All the Stacks are about drawing on a collection of expertise from use in practice, and RAW questions are limited in what they can gain from that resource.

Mala

Well, no, because of the intersection of RAW and optimization

;)

BESW

(As demonstrated by the number of people who've commented in chat--myself included-- "I answered that question without having ever played the system, I just read the material.")

Mala

10:28 AM

Optimization within RAW in D&D and Pf does require some system mastery (expertise), since there's just so much stuff and it shows it was an explicit design goal of the edition

BESW

Yes, but optimisation is an application of RAW, not an integral part of it, and it isn't objective.

Mala

Not sure I agree there ;)

BESW

Mmm. A major part of the struggle over RAW on the site has been arguments over the objectivity of optimisation.

Mala

And expertise as 'active users of the subject' with regard to soft topics... also difficult, because groups and playstyles etc diverge so muh

much

BESW

Objectivity of optimisation assumes as universal baseline experience which is, practically speaking, difficult to define if not utterly ephemeral.

Mala

10:31 AM

practically speaking, yes, but theoretically speaking it exists within RAW

It's like science. You have a model (RAW) that you use to describe the world. We know the model is not perfect, but it's a good shared understanding

BESW

Only if we accept the assumption that a system is internally complete and can function entirely on RAW. Which even the d20 System readily (if grudgingly) admits is impossible and defeats the point of tabletop gaming.

Mala

and we agree to use the model because within it, we can abstract from everyone's personal, different games

No, it's still useful even if we can enumerate its many falws

flaws

BESW

Useful, yes.

Objective, less so.

Mala

because everyone can map their personal games and experiences to that shared model

and you and me and they know best where the big divergences are

BESW

I know folks to whom the "shared model" isn't just divergent, but utterly alien.

I've played in 3.5 games where monks were OP.

Mala

10:35 AM

Sure, but those people will know that their personal world diverges from the model in those (small, or huge) aspects

Doesn't make the shared model useless ;)

BESW

Also arguable; for that to be true an optimisation argument would have to explicitly postulate the baseline. It hardly ever does.

The baseline is almost always assumed to be something everyone in the conversation is already familiar with, and thus for someone whose personal experience is alien to that baseline, optimisation is not only inapplicable, it's nonsense.

Mala

Why? Better and worse is not dependent on absolutes. You can optimize a monk even when everyone else plays wizards

BESW

Besides, optimisation doesn't actually mean "making things more powerful."

It means "making deliberate choices to meet a particular play goal." Power is only one possible goal.

Mala

Well, for me it' s "how can I find the best balance between power and fun"

Of course you can optimise to other goals, but that is not the common definition of the term within this context

BESW

My first PC, long before I know anything about RAW or optimisation boards or any of the RPG culture, optimised toward pushing other PCs into RP situations.

Pixie

10:39 AM

Mm. The first thing I ask when anyone says "optimize" is "optimize for what?"

2

BESW

(And that's another common problem that we run into with RAW discussions on the site; the assumption that everybody participating in the site is at least aware of the wider RPG online community.)

Mala

I am usually the DM and in my games, I optimise towards "having the characters make hard decisions/trade-offs"

still, if you heard "ttrpg optimisation" you will first default to think "for more power" :)

Pixie

I actually don't!

Mala

But you are aware you are the exception, right?

BESW

One of the most avid RAW supporters on this site, a guy who excels at optimisation and power-gaming, is well-known in several optimisation communities, and writes for Paizo, is quite upset when folks consider optimisation to be roughly equivalent to power-gaming.

Mala

10:43 AM

Yes, of course. I don't think it's equivalent either.

Still, it will be the first google hit if you search for it

Pixie

@Mala That's not really my perception. If someone asks a question here and simply says something like "how do I optimize [insert class here]," they're going to be asked for more detail. Because sure, we could assume they're just trying to be as "powerful" as possible (for whatever your definition of "powerful" is), but that's just a shot in the dark.

Mala

The common association still stands

Maybe the better term would be "mechanical refinement", how to use the mechanics optimally for {whatever goal}. And a common goal is power.

BESW

So, we started talking about optimisation as an example of how RAW can incorporate play experience while still providing objective answers.

Mala

Don't think these things should be mixed ;)

play experience is based on concretes, but the abstract model of RAW is theoretical and will never be achieved

BESW

Optimisation is objective only inasmuch as we assume we can model a 'default' or 'average' play experience derived from RAW, and useful only inasmuch as we can know the deviation of the user's experience from that model.

Mala

10:50 AM

RAW and optimisation should not be directly tied to play experience, but to theoretical models and rules (in my eyes).

BESW

So in order for someone to give an objectively useful optimisation answer to a user, they'd have to accurately interpret the user's description of their situation, which is a major stumbling block in your evaluation of subjects as fitting the Stack model.

Mala

Deviation for asker = additional constraits in the question

I don't think that's correct.

BESW

Personally, I see no universal model inherent in RAW so everything else is just secondary proofs.

Mala

The user asks for RAW and posts a list of constraints (house rules, preferences). Within this stated boundaries, the spectrum of possible answers is a perfect fit for the model.

BESW

I don't consider RAW sufficiently consistent or thorough to provide a useful objective model. It's messy, and that's fine. I think a major stumbling block with RAW questions on this site has been a perception that it's not messy.

Mala

10:53 AM

Of course it's messy, but we don't have a better model.

BESW

Of course, these days I play games where the concept of RAW, or even of optimisation in the d20 System sense, is meaningless.

Mala

So we use the best we have in knowledge of its flaws.

BESW

@Mala Right, and that's awesome. But it's not centred around some objective universal truth. The messiness is in the core of the thing.

Mala

@BESW I did that too, for a while, but Fate and *world and all the other indie games just are not as much fun for me.

Haha, messiness is the core of human experiences so why should a rule-set defined by humans not reflect that :)

BESW

I'm not saying it shouldn't.

Mala

10:55 AM

Maybe would would have been the better verb.

BESW

But when a Stack user asks a coding question, an answer that is a line of code can be said to objectively work or not.

Mala

Not a native speaker ;)

BESW

If it's "true" but doesn't work for the user, that's because of a variable on the user's system-- but that doesn't invalidate the truth value of the line of code.

Mala

Same with RAW :)

BESW

I disagree: unlike a coding answer, I fundamentally contest the idea that an RPG solution of any sort can be objectively right and any failure of it to work for the querent is due to an unanticipated variable in the subject's execution.

The RPG rulebook is not a programming language.

2

It is malleable and contextual and that principle is inherent to the medium of the tabletop RPG. If we remove the participants we don't wind up with a Platonic ideal of a game, we wind up without a game.

Mala

10:58 AM

I think you mix up things, or it's not quite clear.

RPG mechanics should be a tightly defined set of rules.

BESW

RAW treats the rulebook as a programming language, or a set of physics, and that's a fun game to play. I've played it myself many times. I'm not arguing against RAW.

Mala

That they are not doesn't mean it's not the goal. They don't write inconsistent rules by design.

BESW

But an RPG's mechanics are a manifesto, a declaration in guidebook form describing what kind of game the designers think is fun to play.

Mala

They write it because of human messiness, and errata or clear up the confusion when serious bugs are found.

BESW

That's what rules are for: for a group of people to tell another group of people how to play a game that is fun. Treating a guide to a fun game as equivalent to a programming language or physics is simply one kind of game to play with the guide.

It is not objectively the right way to play.

Mala

11:02 AM

That too, but it's also the shared model that people with completely different play styles and experiences can use to talk to each other without having to be aware of the others diverging experiences.

BESW

So I contest the idea that treating the rulebook that way creates some sort of central experience model from which all others deviate, because many groups aren't playing that kind of game at all to begin with.

Mala

So it makes perfect sense to use the small shared single-way model to facilitate communication in full knowledge that everyone will use it differently in pratice

Yes, but what alternative do you offer that is useful for communicating things across the huge barriers of divergent play experiences? (alien, you said before)

BESW

Again, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Just not that it's able to somehow define an objective central experience from which all others deviate. There's no Platonic D&D Game from which all real D&D games emerge.

Listening to folks describe how they play is a good start. We answer rules questions for all manner of systems that have no concept of RAW or any of these ideas and it works out pretty well.

Mala

The practical problem is that there are so many differences (explicit, implicit, many people are not even aware that its differences) that the space of a question will not be enough to describe it

BESW

Because the human experience is messy we have a lot of practice finding common ground without stuff like the RAW constructs.

RAW is great for folks who have agreed to work within the RAW construct.

For folks who don't know it or aren't interested in it... it's less than useful.

Mala

11:07 AM

BESW I argue we don't. Finding common ground is incredibly hard given the barriers even of just language. Almost every communication between two or more people contains misunderstandings and misinterpretations by the other side, just often people are not even aware of that

BESW

Sure it's hard. But we've got practice and we do it more often than not, and it's worth the effort.

Mala

And I don't say that there shouldn't be stuff outside RAW here. But (going back) all I say is that RAW is in my eyes the best fit to RPG.SE, and it doesn't feel good to see how it was treated here in the past.

BESW

I agree that RAW questions are probably the easiest to identify as fitting the Stack mode.

And yes, I don't think anyone is happy with how RAW questions have played out over the last several years.

Mala

about " we got pratice". Yes, we do, but stating you wish RAW in a question limits the amount of work one has to put in to describe 'the alternative' in order for answers to be useful.

BESW

Hence the constant attempts to deal with it, but also hence the increasing mistrust that others were acting in good faith on the subject because (I think this is the underlying notion) if RAW is this sick, somebody must be poisoning it deliberately.

Mala

11:12 AM

I don't think it's poisoning, it's just comments and actions by mods that show a bias that is not appropriate for their role.

The can have whatever bias they want, but acting as mod this should be kept in check.

BESW

That's definitely not the only thing which was going on, but happily that particular symptom is being actively avoided now.

Mala

Lets hope so ;)

BESW

I've seen it.

Nobody came out of this smelling like roses, and in order to move forward we need to focus on what we learnt that we can implement going forward. Finger-pointing at this point would be very counterproductive.

2

Mala

Sure. I mean, I don't blame anyone, it's typically human to not be aware of one's own bias. But it's not ideal if it shows... and yes, maybe the drama helped to build an understanding of these issues.

Pixie

BESW

11:22 AM

It would've been nice if we could've avoided it, but "With fire we test the gold."

trogdor

XDXDXD

extra points for blue eyes white dragon

Pixie

Naturally.

Miniman

11:56 AM

@trogdor Skip is way better. Can you imagine a Skip card in M:tG? Or even Yugi-Oh for that matter.

Pixie

@Miniman Well...

(Not without strings, granted.)

Miniman

@Pixie [facepalm] ofc. Dammit, yugi-oh...

@Pixie facepalm ofc. Dammit, M:tG...

Pixie

Of course!

BESW

[uses Reverse while playing hearts]

Miniman

@BESW I've had more arguments about the effect of Reverse in a two-player game of UNO then I have about politics.

BESW

12:05 PM

@eimyr "ploitics"

Miniman

@BESW You saw nothing.

Pixie

That sounds like a Pokemon.

BESW

Pixie

I think there are a number of cards that make your opponent lose turn phases in YGO, but few that take an entire turn. The only other one I can think of is maybe Turn Jump which is, thank goodness, not actually a real card. But it sure exists in the anime.

This, however, is the face of a very real danger:

BESW

12:20 PM

Pixie

(This was, at least at one time, one of the most dangerous cards in the game. It was the key to a combo that could take our opponent out on your first turn. Like Exodia the Forbidden One, but way cuter.)

StackExchange

5:00 PM

0

Q: AD&D Treasure Generation

I'm running an AD&D campaign for a party of usually-three PCs, who were first level until our most recent session. (As for what they are now, we'll get to that...) I have the 1e DMG (door cover) and Unearthed Arcana, and a Monster Manual that might be older than that, judging by its condition. Th...

rules-as-written magic-items adnd treasure

trogdor

8:35 PM

@Miniman lol, that would be pretty strong

@Pixie AAAAAUUGH! cat!

BESW

9:41 PM

← 135 messages moved from RPG General Chat

Pixie

9:55 PM

@trogdor Rescue Cat will end you. Rescue Cat's name is not very appropriate.

trogdor

10:05 PM

lol

why is it even called that?

it sounds like an incredibly inappropriate name for the card, also no cat is there to rescue you, they are there to do quite the opposite

Pixie

@trogdor You send Rescue Cat to your graveyard to special summon two level 3 or lower beast monsters from your deck, which then get destroyed in the end phase (so it's "rescuing" monsters from your deck). However...

What happens then is that you can special summon a monster (Uniflora I think) you can then tribute to get Rescue Cat back out of the graveyard.

trogdor

oh god

Pixie

You wind up with 5 monsters on the field in a single turn if you keep doing it.

trogdor

it lets you keep tearing through your deck until you have what you want

that sounds broken as all hell

Pixie

Yep. It's banned.

trogdor

10:11 PM

as it should be

I mean, from what I recall, the main balancing factor in the entire game is supposed to be how hard it is to summon stuff

that completely kills all the balance in that mechanic XD

what little balance there may have been to begin with anyway

Pixie

I think there are other broken things you can do with the card too, but that's the one I'm familiar with.

trogdor

there are some pretty good reasons I stopped playing YU-GI-OH

well, it seems like you can use it to put tons of creatures in the graveyard, which could in itself be useful in a few ways

buffing certain minions, grabbing specific things OUT of the graveyard

Pixie

True.

Lately I want to get back into playing a TCG, but I don't really want to have to catch up with what YGO and Magic have been doing in the past 10 years, so I'm looking for a good TCG video game. Oh yeah, I need to check out Spellweaver.

trogdor

lol

I mostly play Hearthstone every once in a while now

there are still problems with it, but it uses mechanics that killed some of the frustrating parts of other TCG's for me

Pixie

Ahh.

trogdor

10:16 PM

I can't play too much of it though because it can still sometimes be frustrating in it's own right

Pixie

I've checked out Hearthstone, but from what I hear, it seemed like getting into it at this point would be tough. If I'm going to have to spend much money, too, I might as well just go get a bunch of YGO cards. xD

trogdor

mostly, I don't quite like how the cards that rely on a lot of RNG seem to outnumber the ones that don't right now

Pixie

Ahh.

trogdor

@Pixie yeah part of why I am not completely frustrated by it is that I got into it pretty early

I have most of the cards I could want that are currently out

Pixie

Ahh, I see.

I like collecting cards too, just because they're pretty and cool, so if buying of boosters is heavily involved, I want the physical object.

trogdor

10:19 PM

and I have a buffer of the in game gold and dust to get a couple new ones when they release more, I have not spent a single cent of actual money

Pixie

Oh, that's cool.

trogdor

you don't HAVE to buy cards with real money, but you would need to grind a bit for them,.. so that is an issue XD

I do not, however, think I will ever have ALL the cards at any point

the good news being that there are some cards I just don't want, and if I randomly get those I could turn them into dust

not the amount of dust they are worth if I bought them with it, but still

Pixie

Yeah, it just sounded like because it's been out for a while, it would take me too long to get into it if I didn't spend money.

trogdor

there are still plenty of cards I don't actually want to have

@Pixie that may very well be the case yes

there would be a lot of gold and dust grinding involved

but you would technically still start with all the "soulbound" cards

keeping in mind most of those cards, however, are not as flashy as any of the ones you would need to "work" for

Pixie

Ahh.

trogdor

10:24 PM

anyway, for the foreseeable future, Hearthstone takes care of my craving for TCG

but it isn't a game I want to play too much of in one day, it can be frustrating and random at times

Pixie

Ahh. Maybe I'll still check it out.

trogdor

not to say most TCG's don't already have that problem XD

Pixie

I can never remember its name, but there was one in development by a major company where everyone would have all the cards.

trogdor

@Pixie I see no reason not to if I haven't already scared you off XD

worst case scenario is you find out you don't like it, and hopefully didn't spend any actual money before finding that out XD

Pixie

Haha, yeah. I'm sure I'd figure it out before that point.

I also need to see how much the old Digimon and Monster Rancher TCG video games were. I hear they were pretty fun, and if the Digimon is anything like the card minigame in DW3, I can believe it. xD

trogdor

10:28 PM

there are a lot of card games out there

and the number will only grow for the foreseeable future because people still like the genre

XD

the biggest problem I can foresee for anyone going into Hearthstone is probably the whole thing of running into all the people who bought a bunch of cards you don't have

I can see that being an issue for sure

the only reason it isn't one for me, I think, is that I do actually have plenty of cards myself at this point XD

but the fact that I can play if for free is probably the real reason I still do play it XD

Pixie

Blaaaargh, I hate tutorials.

trogdor

and it is fun, at least for me, but the intentionally random elements that have creeped into many of the cards does frustrate me, alongside some more "normal" randomness like drawing random cards out of your deck

@Pixie oh yeah, it has a turorial

Pixie

I'm actually playing Spellweaver right now.

trogdor

ah well, the Heathstone one is pretty decent

it teaches you how to play without holding your hand toooo much for it

though there is still a little hand holding

Pixie

On the second part of the tutorial, I messed up. I didn't realize that it wanted me to play a certain card. So then the tutorial guide was like, "Elf Scout is ready to attack!" But it wasn't, because I played it a turn later than the tutorial wanted me to. I couldn't see any way to progress the tutorial without making Elf Scout attack right then, though.

trogdor

10:42 PM

and other peoples thresholds for tolerance of that amount of it might be lower than mine

@Pixie eww

Pixie

I might've overlooked it, granted, but I could not end the turn. xD

trogdor

if it wants to force you into that it should have at least told you XD

that is a bad element of many tutorials

I wish people would realize that taking away choices in a tutorial has several issues with it

especially if you botch it and "give" a wrong choice option to someone and lock progress afterwards XD

you shouldn't just give a choice to your players if you hardwired some of them as the "wrong" one

XD

Pixie

There was a dialog bubble I had to click, I think.

Yeah. xD

trogdor

that still seems like,.. bad design XD

at the very least, they should have stopped you from doing anything until you clicked it

I mean you know, if not clicking it is going to result in needing to manually restart, maybe allowing people to continue without clicking it isn't great

XD

choices are not better if they are actually fake XD

anyway, I gotta go to work now, probably a good idea to actually show up XD

Pixie

Yeah. I figure either it was an oversight or I missed something in the interface that would have actually worked. xD Seeya!

Miniman

11:07 PM

I played Hearthstone for a while, but the way it forces a 5 minute game to take half an hour for no reason whatsoever just pisses me off way too much.

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