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02:00 - 17:0017:00 - 18:00

02:51
@DamkerngT. Hi, are you here?
How are you?
But probably not very long. I have something coming up around 10:00.
No worry.
@Rathony Good. Thanks! How are you?
02:52
Let's delete all the comments first.
Great. Thanks.
Ha Ha
Which ones would you like to delete or be deleted?
All of them?
I deleted all of mine.
It's up to you.
Got it!
02:53
As far as I understand, gen. ref. questions are not gen ref if more the OP looks up more than 2 dictionaries, right?
I'm gonna paste them here and delete them on the main site. Is that okay with you?
Yeap.
My comments are gone, :-)
Thanks!
@Rathony My first language doesn't have any of the "th" sounds, which helps me understand the OP's situation. In my humble opinion, even though English "th" sounds, whose information, like many other topics in English, can be found almost everywhere on the web, it shouldn't be off-topic if, say (and this is real), I heard someone say the name Martha and thought it sounded like [mɑrt˭ɑ] and posted a question asking about it. — Damkerng T. 22 mins ago
I think we interpret "basic questions spelling, meaning or pronunciation" differently. The way I understand it, this question is more about listening (though, of course, what the OP listened to is a pronunciation given by a dictionary, but that shouldn't make it off-topic, in my humble opinion). That off-topic reason, as I understand it, is for the cases where such information (spelling, meaning, or pronunciation of a word or a phrase) should be easy to find in dictionaries, and once a learner looks it up, such information should solve the learner's problem (which is not always the case). — Damkerng T. 4 mins ago
The OP looked up only one dictionary. Wiktionary.
@Rathony It's okay. I can still remember most of your points, at least now and the next ten minutes or so. :P
02:55
which sounds like [b]
@Rathony Yes. That's true.
I checked other dictionaries and it doesn't sound like [b] at all
I take it that she(?) was wondering about that particular example.
I doubt the Wiktionary would sound like [b]
I couldn't listen to it because the link didn't open.
I think it's exactly like a Chinese "b".
02:56
I can speak Chinses
So I think you know what I mean.
Not fluently, but I lived Chinese language culture for 12 years.
Now, I understand the OP's problem. But as I said, you have to know alphabet to read English. You have to know IPA keys or whatever keys you have in your country to pronounce.
Chinese people can speak English far better than Korean or Japanese.
I beg to differ. I hadn't known how to read IPA until only recently.
They have advantage as the word order is same as English.
Maybe you didn't feel the need to learn IPA keys. But you could read alphabet, right?
And I think there are a lot more subtle things, phonologically, that IPA couldn't transcribe.
@Rathony Of course. :-)
02:59
IPA keys are almost same as alphabet except mostly for the vowel sounds.
Not quite so, IMHO.
It's like musical notes.
Those subtle things are not quite useful for learners.
For example, T sound is different in Texas and New York.
Hmm... I think they are, but I think we can have different opinions.
or in the U.K.
Yep! -- Exactly!
03:00
Then, how will you write a post about T sound?
And there are more /t/ sounds than even most native speakers are aware of.
based on the UK sound or NY sound?
Depends on the question.
NO, the question is off-topic.
Hmm... that would be strange.
03:01
The answer to the question is "it varies."
That may be true, but that wouldn't be helpful for learners.
The question about [b] and [p] is same. It varies.
Exactly.
Okay, it varies how?
It doesn't help.
Now, that's a really difficult question, isn't it?
03:02
Some regions will pronounce it closer to P, some will closer to B.
As T is more distinct in British English.
And it sounds more like D in American English.
Off-topic. It varies.
You have to listen to UK English and American English to learn.
There is no answer to that question.
Why is T sound different in the U.S. from that of the U.K?
Is it on-topic?
Not quite, but I understand if some people want to answer that.
Why is P sound different for Chinese people than from Japanese?
The question reads me more like it.
The main thing that makes it not quite on-topic on ELL is because I think it's better asked on EL&U.
I mean "to me".
I don't think so.
Or probably Linguistics.SE.
03:06
IPA keys are there to help learners to get pronunciation.
correctly.
What is alphabet for?
Why is harbour spelled differently in the U.S.?
Learning IPA is helpful, but that's not the final answer to all pronunciation-related questions.
@Rathony Again, EL&U or Linguistics.
What I am saying is you can't teach all the pronunciations in the world or regions
You mean any, not all, I think.
Then, you end up saying this is a standard pronunciation.
Then, what is there for a standard pronunciation? IPA keys.
Learn it or leave it is the answer to the question.
I don't know how to pronounce harbour because there is one more spell in the word than the U.S.
How can I pronounce it?
Learn the IPA keys and listen to the dictionary.
That's the answer.
I think the OP didn't ask about the standard pronunciation of spell, though I think they wouldn't mind if someone tells them. (Which we did)
03:09
Then, we can have a Chilean ask about the differnece
Japanese ask about the difference. Korean ask about the difference.
It seems to me that you have a firm belief that all learners must learn IPA in order to be able to speak a second language properly.
Mongolian ask about the difference.
What is our policy for that type of question?
What question?
All those different nationals ask about the difference between b and p
IMHO, we shouldn't judge before seeing the question.
03:11
If you want to learn the language, you have to learn alphabet. Right?
How many consonants are there in English?
Alphabet is not IPA.
Exactly. But they sound similar.
@Rathony What do you mean by "consonants"?
Spell [spel]
Only difference is one L
consonant and vowel.
I know consonants and vowels, but what do you mean by "consonants"?
03:13
If you can't tell the difference between Spell and [spel]
There are not many of them.
You learn alphabet by spending some time memorizing it.
You lean IPA keys by spending some time looking it up and try to see how it works.
It is not that difficult for learners.
You said you've lived in a Chinese culture. I take it that you can read Chinese.
Yeap.
Not 100%.
How can you read it?
Pin Yin
Pinyin is not IPA.
03:15
They are
Really? That's new to me.
They let us how to pronounce each character and the four tones.
But it's not IPA.
Do you know each Chinese character has different tones?
They are the one who needs different alphabetical characters to pronounce their own words.
Without it, they can't.
I think it does, but probably not 100%.
03:17
No.
Pin Yin is as much important than the characters.
They can't tell the tones without it.
Do you know there are 9 different tones in Cantonese?
They can't tell which is what without Pin Yin.
Hmm... really?
I tried to learn Cantonese when I lived in HK, but I gave it up.
It a damn difficult language.
That's strange. How could Chinese people speak before pinyin, then?
Then, why do Chinese not care about learning IPA keys?
They learn the language from their mothers.
But for difficult words or characters, they need Pin Yin to pronounce it. Depending on the tone, they mean completely different things.
They would use a different character, too, wouldn't they?
03:20
It's like you learn Latin words. How do you pronounce it? Do you ask on this forum? No, you look up the dictionary and see the IPA keys.
They use similar characters.
They look all the same to foreigners.
The same pronunciation could have two or more characters. That's the problem with Chinese characters.
Not only in Chinese languages.
How do you pronounce Aristotle in Enlgish?
Is it an acceptable question on ELL?
They are different in Chinese, Japanese, Spanish.
The answer is look up the dictionary and read the IPA keys.
Okay, I have to go. Catch you later.
All right.
Take care.
 
10 hours later…
user116848
13:34
@snailboat Hi. Is my restriction on "create a new room" privilege completely reversed by you? Because I still can't see a "create room" option when i click on your avatar. Or is it only pertaining to you? Thought I'd ask.
user116848
Later.
14:29
@DamkerngT. Are you here?
Yes, I'm here now.
Are you free for a few minutes? I have a question to ask.
Can you go to ELL Meta and take a look at my post?
Shall I link it here?
Please!
14:31
0
Q: I don't understand why this edit was rolled back

RathonyAn hour ago, I was reviewing a close-vote queue and found a question with 3 close-votes as unclear what you're asking. I had two choices. Cast my close-vote or edit the question that was unclear because the Original Poster doesn't seem to have proficiency in English. I chose the latter as the q...

Can you give me a comment? Is there any policy against my edit?
Okay, let me have a look.
Tks.
I just finished reading the first question you linked to.
It was kinda confusing, the way the OP posted it.
And I'm not sure if your edit makes it clearer.
Yeap. But the answer was clear enough.
I think I agree with Jim in his comment.
The question is unclear to me. I suppose it is: How can we appropriately form questions which must elicit responses in the form: [Optional introductory phrase] + by + [-ing form] + [more]? Voting to close as unclear what's being asked. — Jim Reynolds 2 hours ago
14:37
Then, why wouldn't Jim edit the question?
It looks like the OP was trying to ask, "What question can I use to force the answer to be 'Deaf people can communicate by using their hands'?"
Not force...
That's how I understand the OP's question. It's my best guess.
So in your opinion, my edit was not appropriate
To be fair to Jim, he was the first close voter (if I'm not mistaken), and he left a comment, so the OP could edit their question to add more information.
14:39
or in other words, didn't make it clear enough.
What if the OP doesn't have any proficiency to do that?
@Rathony nods -- I wouldn't use "not appropriate" myself, but I don't think it made it clearer.
0
Q: I don't understand why this edit was rolled back

RathonyAn hour ago, I was reviewing a close-vote queue and found a question with 3 close-votes as unclear what you're asking. I had two choices. Cast my close-vote or edit the question that was unclear because the Original Poster doesn't seem to have proficiency in English. I chose the latter as the q...

@StoneyB Hi, StoneyB. Nice to see you here.
I mean, if we have to make a guess, I'd like to guess it based on the original.
Hi @Rathony. What's shaking?
14:40
Nothing much. How are you?
I deleted the post.
Thanks.
This part is rather hard to decipher:
> How can they communicate? (What means do they use by?- it sounds strange!) The answer must contain by.
I would be nice if the OP clarified why they put that in the parentheses.
The OP is asking if the two questions are appropriate to get the answer which much have "by"
That's what I'm not sure.
Another come and go OP, maybe. I will forget about it.
Keep asking about the past perfect.
@StoneyB What do you think?
@StoneyB Oh, you wrote an answer to the question.
@Rathony That's a little strong, though I won't deny the possibility.
14:45
They keep asking the same question because we are rewarding them with an answer.
Hmm... that question doesn't look to me like trolling.
@Rathony Ahh
@Rathony I don't see anything particularly trollish. In fact, this is a pattern I've commented on somewhere on Meta: every three or four months we seem to get a user who's really perplexed by the perfect and asks a series of questions trying to pin down their understanding. I think it's innocent.
nods -- I think I agree with StoneyB on this one.
@StoneyB There is a possibility the same user keeps changing the user name.
every 3 or 4 months.
@StoneyB What's tense have to do with innocence?
I don't think any language expresses innocence by changing the tense.
Sequence of tenses is one of the most difficult things to understand in English, for those who come from a language that has no tense.
14:53
I agree.
That's why I don't close vote for a new user. They are innocent.
@Rathony I mean the question and the questioner are innocent of trolling.
But keep asking the same question is a problem. This is 6th or 7th question.
@StoneyB Sorry, I was not clear enough. The OP is asking about the tense using innocence as a possible reason to use that specific tense.
Oops, the OP asked 135 questions. Then, there are even more.
I got to go. Nice talking to you all.
Just thinking about the grammar of about to, it's better to treat it as a semi auxiliary.
@Rathony See you around!
Just tthinking if we consider about as an adverb, does an adverb modify an infinitive construction?
15:03
IMHO, if about is an adverb (in a sentence such as He was about to be seen), it'd modify the verb to be.
I thought about it more this morning, I think it more resembles another pattern with now.
He was now to be seen.
(somewhere, some place in the context)
@Rathony I think OP is troubled by what in the Canonical post I called time-shifting with perfects--the fact that use of the perfect creates an opportunity to shift RT to an earlier timeframe. He is looking for a "rule" for when this shift may be effected, and is currently hypothesizing that Reference Time shifts are attributable to the local semantics.
> ...; he was now to expose himself in bitter and angry nakedness to the law.
But there now as an adverb has a meaning. What meaning of about is there as an adverb?
@Man_From_India The semi-auxiliary (I'd call it a semi-modal, but we're talking about the same thing) here would not be bare about to but BE about to, like BE going to or BE fixing to or BE able to.
@StoneyB yes it is
15:10
@Man_From_India "soon" could be a possible definition.
about as an adverb to mean almost, but then it has to modify the following infinitive construction.
A definition of soon: within a short time from now
I tend to agree that the most parsimonious analysis is to treat BE about (to VERB) as a fixed construction which cannot be analyzed into components which may be categorized as distinct "words".
@DamkerngT. I haven't checked throughly, but i havenot found "about" as adverb to mean soon.
@Man_From_India very close to doing something merriam-webster.com/dictionary/about
15:14
be about to do something: to be going to happen or do something very soon
Wiktionary, Collins are classifying it as a preposition.
I agree. But one problem is be about to and be to don't have much difference when about is omitted.
Yes; if you want to drive down to a PoS level, I think you have to treat about as a preposition, on historical/semantic grounds.
@StoneyB I agree with that point.
I think someone in the past opted to define it (in this usage) as a preposition, and others followed.
But I still believe it is closer to adverb.
10
Q: Is "now" a "preposition"?

RathonyMy question starts from this question which asks about difference between currently and right now, which is not that complicated. However, in the middle of exchanging comments, I found a few points in relation to classifying adverbs and prepositions that I would like to ask here. Wikipedia (I ...

@DamkerngT. Have you seen this question?
15:19
LOL -- I think there are lots of these.
now, here, there, across, home and such.
@DamkerngT. We never know what will happen in 50 years. Our grand grand sons might call it a intransitive postposition.
The thing is English Grammar is not very clear.
It could be X and sometimes it could be Y.
Yes people are comfortable using those words without having to have a second thought.
What difference does it make? That is my question. You understand it. That's it.
15:22
@Rathony I think that oxford modern grammar use that term. Intransitive preposition. I dont have the book, but i think i have seen that term somewhere.
@Rathony I disagree; there is a very great difference. "I am to go to London" means that it is expected that I will go to London at some time in the future; "I am about to go to London" means specifically that I am right now actively engaged in preparation for the trip -- actually starting the trip is the next phase.
The meaning never changes depending upon PoS.
@Man_From_India I used "intransitive **postposition**
"
Wait, I think I confused myself. What I said about about being a preposition was meant for about being an adjective.
@StoneyB Yes, but how about these two? I was about to call you, but something urgent came up vs I was to call you, but something urgent came up vs I was going to call you, but something urgent came up.
Actually three.
If you are talking about future aspects, the meaning could be significantly different, but for the Past Simple tense, I don't think it is that significant.
15:24
Yes that term is controversial according to CGEL. They infact pronounces it as pre-position (pre as in prep)
@DamkerngT. Oh, you think about is an adjective?
@Rathony No! I was so surprised to see some dictionaries define it under "adjective".
"I was about to call you" implies that I was on the verge of calling you--had perhaps even started dialing-- when the postponing emergency arose.
In cambridge online dictionary you can find the explanation of about as an adjective.
Which dictionary? I think the meaning is different under the adjective definition. No?
15:26
@Rathony No
Let's see... (IIRC, Cambridge and Oxford)
But I was going to call you or I was about to call you could also mean the same thing.
I am on mobile, so have problem sharing the link.
Also I was to call you. It depends on context.
@DamkerngT. I think that is a reflex of its appearance after be.
15:27
@StoneyB nods -- I guess that must be the case. I humbly disagree with those definitions, though. :-)
@StoneyB How about I am ready to go and I am about to go.
Deep dlwn i still have problem considering it an adverb or a preposition.
@DamkerngT. Me, too, but without the humility!
@DamkerngT. About could be an adjective, too. If its meaning is close to "ready".
I think I'm okay with either adverb or preposition.
15:29
I think I'm okay with all of three.
But I will give a vote to adverb.
@Rathony Yes. That would be fine. But they put be about to do under adjective!
@DamkerngT. They're wrong.
@Rathony Adverb modifying what?
to infinitive.
@StoneyB I was soon to call you. Doesn't it make sense?
I was to call you soon. Apparently soon is modifying the verb call.
@Rathony An adverb can never modify an infinitive as far as i know
@Man_From_India I want you to stop immediately. What does immediately modify here?
15:33
The verb stop
That's to infinitive.
@Rathony I was soon to call you and I was to call you soon mean different things. The first means Shortly after that it turned out that I called you; the second means I was expected to call you in the near future.
@Rathony Or, more famously, "To boldly go where no man has gone before"!
@StoneyB Do you mean "I was soon to call you" can't mean the fact that I didn't call?
In 2094, the grammar of Newspeak states that the part of speech of about in all cases is "about".
(To stop the bus) as a whole an infinitive construction. Does any adverb modify the whole thing? I dont know. That is what I asked here some time back :-)
15:36
@Rathony It's not used that way.
But it doesn't absolutely mean that I called factually.
@DamkerngT. Haha
"I thought on Tuesday we were to meet at noon the next day; but I was soon to call you and find out that we were to meet on Friday."
@StoneyB So you think it is closer to preposition than adverb.
@Rathony In fact, that's how BE soon to VERB is used.
15:39
I see.
@Rathony Historically, it is a preposition. (Even more remotely, it's an entire preposition phrase!). But if you regard it as wholly grammaticized, the PoS becomes irrelevant.
Like two preposition? Like "from behind" etc?
@StoneyB In the NOW question, they claimed NOW is a preposition as it could be modified by "right".
Vry true
Can right modify about?
I think so. What is your opinion @StoneyB?
15:43
@Rathony The explanation is as per latest grammar.
Like most native-English a- words it is etymologically derived from an (=on) + another term--in this case butan, "the outside".
@StoneyB Yes, a lot of questions on ELU on that.
@Rathony Fersher. "The bus is due to arrive right ... about ... now."
How about "I was right about to call you when something came up"?
A preposition as head can take a PP as complement, but I never knew they can also take an infinitive construction as well :O
15:47
But right doesn't modify prepositions. It mostly modifies locatives; the core locatives are preposition phrases, but some are not: right here, right now, right then.
@StoneyB Some people don't agree with you based on the answers to the NOW question.
@Man_From_India Very few do now, but it was once more common.
I remember another test word is straight, like straight indoor etc.
@StoneyB Can you please provide some examples? I can't think of any.
@Man_From_India Is it your ELL user name? I don't remember seeing your name on ELL.
You'll have to point me to the NOW question.
15:50
10
Q: Is "now" a "preposition"?

RathonyMy question starts from this question which asks about difference between currently and right now, which is not that complicated. However, in the middle of exchanging comments, I found a few points in relation to classifying adverbs and prepositions that I would like to ask here. Wikipedia (I ...

@Man_From_India Nobody went to the show except me.
@Rathony Yes that is :-) i am no more that active there.
@Man_From_India I see. Somebody hurt you? :-)
@Rathony Haha ...no :)
@StoneyB The answer at the bottom.
Alan Munn's answers are different from others. Very good.
16:03
A very good discussion. ... I agree with most of what Alan Munn says, but I'm not an adherent of his particular grammatical sect. I don't characterize NPs as 'Determiner Phrases', so his analogy breaks down for me. I characterize now as a pro-PP rather than itself being a preposition. But that's a very subtle distinction, which isn't really relevant here.
And now I have to rush away and go to Valentine's Day dinner with my wife. I'll catch y'all later
@StoneyB I see.
@StoneyB Happy Valentine's Day!
@StoneyB Thank you for your time. I learned a lot.
I really got to go. See you soon!!! Nice talking to you all.
See you!
Happy v day. enjoy with ur gfs/bfs.
16:26
@DamkerngT.
Why do you react when someone addresses you?
Why you react when someone addresses you?

Which is correct?
I think you already know the answer.
By God, I am not sure.
But you know, right? :-)
16:29
No, sir.
Count upon me.
I have no idea.
Hmm... saying "I'm not sure" would imply that you have at least an idea.
@Idon'tknowwhoIam. Well, guess!
Guess first. :-)
I don't know how to explain it.
But you know, right?
16:31
Someone said we cannot use "do"if there's another clause.
Am I right?
Well, they're wrong.
So, it was my point of view.
Now, please explain me.
I have to teach them as well by your jambo explanation.
I'm gonna pass. You already know. And I think there are some similar questions on the main site.
You would find many good answers over there.
Found one for you.
10
Q: Why {are you / you are} making noise?

SudhirI always get confused between these two sentences: Why are you making noise? Why you are making noise? Could anyone put light in the differences between the two?

(The tags aren't really helpful!)
@DamkerngT. We need to flip a table.
16:50
@DamkerngT.
I didn't help me.
You didn't help you? Why?
There's a conjunction used
@Mar.
Where?
Why do you react when someone addresses you?
Why you react when someone addresses you?

Which i
Which is correct?
The former.
16:52
Which
Explain it
You need an auxiliary, since it's the main clause of the sentence.
Just as you need a "do" in "why do you react?", you need a "do" when you say "Why do you react when someone addresses you?"
Explain it clearly please.
I have to send it on public group I mean on Facebook
OK.
Listen. Every sentence has a main clause.
> I am a student.
The sentence above consists of one clause.
And that one clause is of course the main clause.
However, in a sentence like
> I didn't know that he was still alive and kicking.
We have two clauses.
"I didn't know X" is the main clause, and "he was still alive and kicking" is not the main clause.
You can use different terminologies on what to call the latter. Anyways.
If you're going to make an interrogative sentence (a question) from a main clause, you need an auxiliary verb.
"Do" and "does" are handy auxiliary verbs.
> I ate an apple yesterday.
> -> What did you eat yesterday?
> I write loads of homework.
> -> What do you write?
The inclusion -- or lack thereof -- of other clauses doesn't affect the way the main clause functions. Not in this case.
02:00 - 17:0017:00 - 18:00

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