The Whiteboard

Kit Z. Fox

4:01 PM

We like "helping" almost as much as Microsoft.

Ampt

It looks like you're trying to order your output! Would you like help with that?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt gah do not attribute "technical debt" to agile. This is how people construct towers of falsehood: Thing A is recognized among group of high value, thing B is related to something I want/like, henceforth I will construct false tie between thing A and thing B. Result: Agile means standups and sprint planning.

rages

technical debt existed on a time line well before "Agile"

Kit Z. Fox

Because now I need to figure out how to add in weighting.

Jimmy Hoffa

@KitZ.Fox just multiply everything by 3, the mass to flip those extra bits will make all the calculations heavier.

Kit Z. Fox

Do you even lift?

^User story.

Ixrec

4:04 PM

weighting what by what?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec the process, by agile

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa So you're saying you liked technical debt before it was cool?

Kit Z. Fox

@Ixrec sighs Custom values that are business controlled.

But I'm not going to write it that way.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt I'm saying the concept of technical debt has value well outside of process consultancy nonsense. Unless you're a process consulstant. O wait.. Nevermind, carry on.

Kit Z. Fox

Because that is the wrong way to think of it, and now I have the opportunity to change their thinking.

Ampt

4:05 PM

If you can't think of a reason the customer benefits from weighted sorting, why do you have it?

Jimmy Hoffa

@KitZ.Fox you got an ECT machine?

Kit Z. Fox

@Ampt Right, exactly.

Jimmy Hoffa

I've been requesting one at every job I've been for years, management never caved :(

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa So now that it's all mainstream you can't like it anymore? I think I see where you're going with this.

Kit Z. Fox

How is this?

> As a user, I want the most commonly used autofill suggestions to be displayed at the top of the autofill so that I can access them easily.

Ixrec

4:06 PM

"As a user I want to weight things so that I can justify buying this product."

<-- helping

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox That's good, yeah.

Maybe it's not access them easily, but recall previous query's faster

Kit Z. Fox

Because this is another case where business told us what to do instead of what they needed.

And it's a big pain point that someone has to maintain it.

Ampt

Then it is your right, nay your PRIVILEGE to go back to them and say "WHY DO WE DO THIS THING!"

Kit Z. Fox

@Ampt Oh, these are search suggestions, sort of.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt huh? technical debt was well recognized in waterfall

Ampt

4:08 PM

and if they complain about you pushing back, accuse them of being un-agile

it's kind of like being a communist in the 50s

@JimmyHoffa Not sure how obvious I have to make this..

Jimmy Hoffa

hahaha

Ward Cunningham explicates technical debt in '92

@Ampt aye. So what you're saying is, you want me to start writing literature in here on Technical Debt

gnat

folks - I am actively not interested in technologies, are you?

2

Jimmy Hoffa

Seu Jorge - Changes

►

A tribute for the day.

Thomas Owens

@gnat I like technology, but not technologies.

Jimmy Hoffa

@gnat I hate them, I think I made a terrible mistake many years ago.

gnat

4:16 PM

@ThomasOwens I think you have power to remove technologies out of this historically locked question

enderland

I like that I can't log into the application I need to run most of my work related tasks... oh well. :)

Thomas Owens

@gnat THE POWER IS MINE

gnat

@ThomasOwens it's the kind of magic!

Ampt

@AshleyNunn is @WorldEngineer encased in ~~carbonite~~ ice yet?

enderland

@gnat wow what a crappy accepted answer

Ampt

4:20 PM

Remember, we need him alive or we don't get paid!

@enderland ugh that is disgusting.

Ixrec

which neatly demonstrates why these kinds of questions are very not good

huh, historical lock at only 1908 views?

Thomas Owens

@Ixrec I don't know what you're talking about.

Ixrec

@ThomasOwens /applause

user55340

Part of the "save some stuff from NPR that is fun to read" effort?

enderland

except it wasn't fun to read :(

Thomas Owens

4:23 PM

@MichaelT We don't do fun here.

Ixrec

our standards for fun have gone up

Thomas Owens

This is where fun goes to die.

user55340

But there is a fun tag on meta...

Ixrec

it has to be educational and fun, or it's not fun at all

Thomas Owens

The end of fun's line is right here.

enderland

4:24 PM

homepage could really use some pew-pew delete votes

Ixrec

one of these days I'll have speedy delete votes

enderland

-8 -7 -8 -8

user55340

Now... If there was an active or easy to contribute to blog... Like the system SE employees have... Then that might have been a good blog post.

Ixrec

oh the questions page

why do people keep calling that the home page

(yes I know we've had this conversation before, it still doesn't make sense)

Thomas Owens

The home page is the thing you go to when you click the logo.

Nothing else is the homepage.

Ixrec

4:25 PM

exactly!

Thomas Owens

</fact>

user55340

It's the newest questions. Front page gets whacked at -4.

Ixrec

the newest questions list is always junk

it's basically a review queue

there's a question

when our close rate skyrocketed during the 3 CV experiment

is it possible all that really meant was our close rate was faster than our delete rate?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec that gives me a 404

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa Thomas deleted it

hence the applause

user55340

4:30 PM

I will point out it is September again. Classes have started.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec I meant /applause .. nevermind. (I am 10k)

enderland

0

Q: What percentage of users use the /questions page to view questions?

There are two primary ways to view questions: The questions link (clicking the "questions") The homepage link (clicking the site name icon or from the base url) My question is what the total page views for each of those pages are, for all the different SE sites? I have wondered often about th...

Ixrec

@MichaelT that probably would explain

2 hours ago, by Ixrec

we're getting a lot of these reactions lately

user55340

What annoys me about the horses thing - I see things to clean up in the answers but I loath to bounce it again. Half the answers are down voted - and I haven't voted on then (so don't blame me for that).

enderland

horses? what

Jimmy Hoffa

4:35 PM

urgh. Tower of artifice that was just dropped on me: Kanban for IT and SCRUM for Engineering together is called DevOps

user55340

Go look at the front page.

Kit Z. Fox

@JimmyHoffa hahaha. I actually got that one this morning from our Agile expert at work when I asked her about scrum.

enderland

@MichaelT oh that one. I nearly never use "active"

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa It is?

news to me

enderland

@JimmyHoffa BINGO!

Jimmy Hoffa

4:40 PM

37 mins ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt gah do not attribute "technical debt" to agile. This is how people construct towers of falsehood: Thing A is recognized among group of high value, thing B is related to something I want/like, henceforth I will construct false tie between thing A and thing B. Result: Agile means standups and sprint planning.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa I feel like this applies to Agile - "Agile is thing A, thing B is good results. Therefore thing A will cause B!"

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland in the case I just experienced Thing A is modern-process-words and thing B is person-knowing-important-modern-things, so the false equivalence is: Arbitrary construction of definition showing all of these modern things in the person's repertoire! All without actually doing the leg work to learn any of them, of course..

because "scrum" involves zero planning or estimating or ... scrum things (except standups and 2 week reviews)

Thomas Owens

I want to smack some sense into these people.

2

enderland

Ixrec

yay, I earned the Populist badge

Jimmy Hoffa

4:48 PM

@Ixrec populism is in

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa In other news dumb people do dumb things, water is wet, and bears shit in the woods. More news at 5.

Lightness Races in Orbit

If a bear shits in the woods and nobody's there to see, hear, touch, smell or taste it ... does a bear still shit in the woods?

Ixrec

the bear's there

Lightness Races in Orbit

yeah but he could be lying

Ampt

Yeah quit being so bearist you pig!

Thomas Owens

4:50 PM

@Ixrec What if the bear has 0 senses?

Lightness Races in Orbit

not a very reliable witness

@ThomasOwens That's nonsense.

Thomas Owens

@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's like deaf, dumb, and blind, but also can't smell or feel.

Lightness Races in Orbit

that would really suck

and you wouldn't even know!

Ampt

Pretty sure that bear is dead...

Lightness Races in Orbit

poor thing

Kit Z. Fox

4:55 PM

> As a user, I want mouse search results to be paged so that I can navigate through them sensibly instead of constantly clicking Load More.

I am so bad at this.

Lightness Races in Orbit

I hate that too

a lot

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox you're infinitely better today than you were on friday.

Kit Z. Fox

Can't divide by zero.

Lightness Races in Orbit

want to find a Tweet from three years ago? hope you have three hours spare to page down in the AJAX interface

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox You can, however, take the limit as it approaches 0

Kit Z. Fox

4:56 PM

Touché.

Jimmy Hoffa

> As a bear, I want toilet paper so that I can stop getting crap all over my fur.

Ampt

But what are the advantages of tabination over scrolling? Faster load times, better responsiveness, repeatability.

Kit Z. Fox

@JimmyHoffa hee hee

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Isn't that the whole point of charmin?

I don't use it because it's specifically for bears.

Ixrec

and of course there's also infinite scrolling

Lightness Races in Orbit

4:56 PM

@Ampt Navigate in steps you choose yourself

With pagination you can do your own sort-of binary search rather than linearly iterating through the whole thing in a single predefined direction

Ampt

@LightnessRacesinOrbit exactly. There are a ton of reasons to do pagination. Pick the more compelling ones and there you go!

enderland

crowdsourced opinion time. writing an email to my bosses boss, basically saying "it wasn't because of my boss I'm leaving" -- cc my boss? or not?

Lightness Races in Orbit

plus the scrolling usually is accumulative in these crappy sites so it's a resource hog

Kit Z. Fox

Is something like this OK? I'm leery of using 'so that's that aren't easily measurable: As a user, I want to be able to specify how many search results I can view so that I can adjust the display to suit my preferences.

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland bcc perhaps

Ixrec

4:57 PM

that's probably a bit too vague

Ampt

@enderland trying to get some extra brownie points?

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Kit You're writing user stories?

Ampt

@LightnessRacesinOrbit aye, he's been at it since friday

Ixrec

perhaps "fit in the browser" or "reduce load time" or something

Kit Z. Fox

@LightnessRacesinOrbit Trying to learn it.

Ixrec

4:58 PM

there should be an actual reason

Thomas Owens

@KitZ.Fox I don't like the "adjus the display to suit my preferences"...it seems...vague and weird.

enderland

@Ampt I don't need any points, I'm leaving on good terms, but want my managers absolved of the "did we make enderland leave" question

Kit Z. Fox

@ThomasOwens I thought so too. That's why I asked.

enderland

@JimmyHoffa I've been burned with BCC too many times :'( haha

Lightness Races in Orbit

> As a user, I want search results to be paged so that I do not kill the software's author.

Thomas Owens

4:58 PM

What do they really hope to accomplish by viewing more or fewer resuts?

Lightness Races in Orbit

Seems pretty concrete to me.

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox so I can control load time, page size, reduce the number of relevant results.

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland fw afterwards then.

Kit Z. Fox

I knew there was a reason to ask the pros.

user55340

Send it without. Print a copy. Hand it to the boss.

Ampt

4:59 PM

personally I find the "View all" dropdown on paginated pages to be awesome. Ctrl + f

Lightness Races in Orbit

@KitZ.Fox We stopped doing that a while back. The sentence structure someone was trying to force us to use for literally everything was far too constricting. I never felt that it needed to be.

As a developer, I want to be able to write a user story without having to take a degree in linguistics.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt often absolutely unreasonable feature

Kit Z. Fox

@Ampt That's not precluded by this story. Maybe I should put it as a condition of satisfaction?

Ampt

@LightnessRacesinOrbit I find it to be really enlightening as to why you do things. Why is this feature being implemented? How does this benefit the person paying us?

@KitZ.Fox Your software, your rules. That was purely anecdotal and should have no bearing on your reqs

Ixrec

to be fair, I find the sentence structure silly too, and we never use that anymore in our own Jira tickets

Kit Z. Fox

5:00 PM

@Ampt It's already really helped me with that, and I'm glad to pass that on to business.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@enderland don't name anyone either way. the last colleague to leave here just basically said his decision had nothing to do with any sort of unhappiness or displeasure with the company or anyone he worked with, just that he wanted to do more <X thing> that we don't do. twas understood and accepted.

Kit Z. Fox

@Ampt I skipped typing the part where I thought "Our users have actually asked for that too."

Ixrec

but it is true that we should always know why business wants this feature; we happen to be communicating well enough with business now that we have that knowlege even without enforcing the silly sentences

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa I know, but I enjoy it whenever it comes up. Often I'm searching for one particular thing in a list of hundreds, and ctrl + f works better than me going through each page.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Ampt Certainly but we stopped enforcing that sentence structure to explain it. Now as long as you're not waffling and explain the benefits, it's fine. I tend to bullet point a few benefits

Ampt

5:01 PM

@KitZ.Fox Haha well like Jimmy said, that one can be very hard to do depending on the system.

Kit Z. Fox

I'll leave it vague then.

user15026

@ampt he is safely home again and thawed :p

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox ask your devs how hard it is - guage whether thats reasonably in scope or if that should be a seperate story

Communication is key

Kit Z. Fox

@Ampt If I knew who was on my team, I would do that.

Ampt

@AshleyNunn Glad to hear you didn't turn him into maple syrup.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:03 PM

@Ampt of course, but reasonability is an important aspect to features oft overlooked, and key in one like that

imagine googling something and selecting the "show all" option

user55340

@AshleyNunn he missed this nice cold bit that just hit.

Kit Z. Fox

It's true that some result sets are into the 1000s of records.

Ixrec

then discovering the google result counter is a big liar

Jimmy Hoffa

Ampt

> Hit Load all. Crash the Google. MWAHAHAHAHA

Terrorists Win

Jimmy Hoffa

5:08 PM

@KitZ.Fox it can be ok to return such result sets, it can also be unreasonable. Depends on the set and it's purpose. The bottlenecks for that are: What is the network bandwidth to the client? Local ethernet? What is the display and usage on the client? Chrome will lose it's mind if you're putting a pile of dom and javascript and images together for each element. What facilities does the server side technology provide? I've seen ASP.NET applications explode from loading million record sets

enderland

@MichaelT my boss lives in Brazil, be a long trip to hand it t ohim ;)

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland worth while.

Kit Z. Fox

OK. Here is another one. How do I write an Agile spec for a data feed? I can't possibly fit that into a ... oh snap. Devs will have to write their own interface spec as part of design, won't they?

enderland

@JimmyHoffa what about the other boss who's in India right now

that'd be a long trip for two measly pieces of paper hahahaahh

Kit Z. Fox

@JimmyHoffa Yeah. I'm going to table it for later consideration.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:10 PM

@enderland he's likely in one of the nicer areas that may actually be interesting to visit

user55340

@enderland print it to the network printer there? (/joke)

Ixrec

@KitZ.Fox you mean a spec for what data gets fed, or the UI bits around the feed, or what?

"As a trader I want to see stock prices that update themselves real-time so I can react quickly to price changes without mashing F5."

Jimmy Hoffa

@KitZ.Fox There are good user based solutions though. Limit to 300, at the top of the page just state: "Displaying 300 of N records. You must modify your query filter to see other records" - or some such. Infinite scrolling is a good approach to the "display everything" without blowing your server or DB up etc.

Kit Z. Fox

@Ixrec What gets fed to where. I currently write the interface spec -- file structure, columns, data format, etc.

It's integration between two datasources.

enderland

@MichaelT he also works from home, lol :P

user55340

5:12 PM

If you feel that it would be useful for him, your choices are then either bcc or fw after the fact. I suspect that without clear communication channels, fw would likely be the better choice if you don't want him obviously on the communication.

Ampt

@enderland Show up on his doorstep

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland perfect! That would totally freak him out then!

user15026

@MichaelT we dropped him off at the airport and literally on the way home, it started t9 snow and get cold.

user55340

Too bad he didn't visit during the polar vortex of 2014.

user55340

5:16 PM

user55340

Incidentally the second one there was published in January.

user55340

A few months before the first one.

Kit Z. Fox

> As the datasource for displaying public information about our products, I want to automatically receive data from our licensing database about which strains require the license pricing toggle to be displayed.

user55340

The comic artist was a bit optimistic

Jimmy Hoffa

@KitZ.Fox ugh, your data source is so not a stakeholder

Ixrec

5:18 PM

^

Kit Z. Fox

I don't know how else to write it.

Jimmy Hoffa

did you sit down and clearly define your roles yet?

Ixrec

As a user, I want to see data so I can do stuff with it.

Jimmy Hoffa

@KitZ.Fox that's why you should start number 1 with roles like I said before

Kit Z. Fox

Whose role is that?

Ixrec

5:19 PM

stuff about data sources belongs in lower level specs than the user stories

TMN

@KitZ.Fox: Don't anthropomorphize software. Programs hate that.

3

Ixrec

Kit Z. Fox

So how do I make sure that new datafeeds are included in the work process?

Ixrec

As a user, I want NEW data...

i.e. why are the new datafeeds useful?

Kit Z. Fox

I don't know anymore.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:20 PM

then don't include them

Ampt

I'll admit, writing good user stories requires a hell of a lot more high level view - you can't just say we got these reqs now we're doing them.

you have to know a ton about the system in order to be able to see why you need X or Y

Jimmy Hoffa

if you can't explain how someone the business cares about will benefit from something, you shouldn't be doing it

Kit Z. Fox

@JimmyHoffa They need to be included to control interface elements. I was being facetious.

Ixrec

yeah, that's kinda the whole point of these silly sentences: they force you to confront the fact that you have no idea why you're doing X

Ampt

even though you intuitively know from previous experience that you do know them

@JimmyHoffa Are you extolling Agile!? GIVE US JIMMY BACK!

Jimmy Hoffa

5:21 PM

@KitZ.Fox that's so far from your job to say though; user stories should have zilch to do with implementation. They come from utterly non-technical people

Ixrec

@Ampt when was Jimmy anti-agile?

Ampt

@Ixrec Since always?

enderland

@JimmyHoffa does "making a manager feel like the feature is shinier" count?

Kit Z. Fox

I'm extremely frustrated about the position I am in at the moment.

Jimmy Hoffa

@KitZ.Fox me too. Got any scotch?

Kit Z. Fox

5:22 PM

@JimmyHoffa I have bourbon at home.

user55340

There is agile the manifesto. There is agile the project management with no plan further out than a sprint.

Ixrec

which is not agile

user55340

First is ideal. Second is common.

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox Go back and ask questions. Seriously.

Ixrec

it is being agile for one sprint and then very suddenly not being agile any more

Ampt

5:23 PM

you're going to have to push back if you want it to work

Kit Z. Fox

There is agile the buzzword we threw at the BA and then abandoned.

Jimmy Hoffa

@KitZ.Fox what kind? Ten high doesn't even count as Whiskey. Stuff like that should just be called something else.

Kit Z. Fox

@JimmyHoffa Bulleit.

@Ampt I have a meeting with the project lead at 1, maybe. If he shows up to it.

user55340

(Current employer is 90% cowboy - and it works)

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox Tell him he's blocking the creation of user stories and being un-agile if he doesn't show up.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:24 PM

That's actually not a harrible bourbon, and I dislike most bourbons on account of their sweetness

Ampt

Wield the power of buzzwords against them.

Kit Z. Fox

@JimmyHoffa I generally prefer scotch, but this one is pretty decent.

Ixrec

@KitZ.Fox in all seriousness, people showing up to meetings regularly is one of those things you need to make agile work

Kit Z. Fox

screams in frustration, pounds keyboard, stomps off to get more coffee

Ampt

seriously though, in organizations that abuse the power of words to mean things they don't, calling someone un-agile is effectively saying they aren't following the company line. You can pretend to be the inquisition and everything.

Ixrec

5:26 PM

do you have the authority to inquisite?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt s/organizations/every damned where ever/f

Ampt

@Ixrec You do if you pretend you do.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec always the problem, and why so many organizations abuse words like they do. No one with authority to fix the situation who knows what they're doing. People get into authority positions through in-group signalling and group credit building. That means strengthening authority's position even when (especially when) wrong.

Ampt

Fake it til you make it need not apply in situations such as these. There is no making it.

enderland

nobody expects the agile inquisition!

4

TMN

5:28 PM

"un-agile" is the new "not a team player"

Ixrec

my favorite mock agile phrase is still "the agile industrial complex"

Ampt

@TMN Ding Ding Ding!

1 hour ago, by Ampt

it's kind of like being a communist in the 50s

user55340

Aside: I tend to the craftsmanship reformulation of agile manifesto.

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT The what now?

Jimmy Hoffa

Authority's don't allow members into their ranks from the out-group, or anyone who appears to be an out-group sympathizer.

Ixrec

5:29 PM

Aside: I'm still not clear on what makes craftsmanship different.

user55340

manifesto.softwarecraftsmanship.org

user55340

Agile: do what works. Craftsmanship: it needs to be well written too.

Ixrec

there was a blog post somewhere which suggested that agile has shifted focus from technical issues to people interaction issues, and the suddenly popularity of craftsmanship is because it goes back to focusing on technical issues

user55340

Agile: respond to change; craftsmanship: add value as things change.

Thomas Owens

I think if you change "well-crafted" to "high quality", that works for engineering.

Ixrec

5:31 PM

there were many other blog posts that pointed out that "software craftsmanship" can mean basically whatever you want it to

what MichaelT's saying it means sounds good to me, but that's how I was interpreting agile anyway

or perhaps, agile + not being an idiot

user55340

Agile was made by consultants who wanted better buzzword justifications for more billable hours when business changed their minds.

user55340

That's great... For consultants. I'm not, but I too often heard "be agile"

Kit Z. Fox

Screw it. I'm going back to the old way.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec Craftsmanship is how a constructed product is made well through application of experientially gained techniques and tactics that results in products of clear and distinct quality. Arts, furniture, houses, all sort of other constructed products have a clear recognition of good craftsmanship vs bad. The idea of applying that concept to software is I think the idea of separating process-engineered/assembly-line style construction from thought-out construction with an eye for quality

user55340

Well written code is a time savings when you have to deal with it two years down the road. YAGNI and do the simplest thing that works be damned.

Ixrec

5:34 PM

@JimmyHoffa this also sounds like something I thought was part of agile

hooray for vague buzzwords

Jimmy Hoffa

Nobody talks about a mass-produced wal-mart stool as showing craftsmanship, but a hand-made bar stool by a carpenter with 20 years of experience is a recognizably different thing

54 mins ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

37 mins ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt gah do not attribute "technical debt" to agile. This is how people construct towers of falsehood: Thing A is recognized among group of high value, thing B is related to something I want/like, henceforth I will construct false tie between thing A and thing B. Result: Agile means standups and sprint planning.

Thing A: Well crafted products, Thing B: Controlling process, result: Software craftsmanship is the result of my process

user55340

@Ixrec remember to put on your consultant hat when reading agile. It means doing no more than the business requirements and avoid adding too much value to it if the customer didn't ask for it.

user55340

(I didn't ask for that, I'm not going to pay for those hours)

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa what I meant was agile containing things like valuing your people and expecting them to be intelligent enough to benefit from autonomy

which seems like it directly implies this craftsmanship stuff, but w/e

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec eh, I don't see autonomy and craftsmanship as having any relation.. One is just the idea of putting something together that is of high quality, the other is just about self-directedness. Many many people given a chance to be self-directed will self-direct themselves to do terrible work as quick as possible to be done.

Ixrec

5:39 PM

fair enough

I'm clearly not being cynical enough

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec try scotch, it helps

enderland

catching up with a friend I've not chatted with in months

> you still employed? making $$$$$$$$$?

> actually no
i was let go on Friday for budgetary reasons

awwkard.. :(

Kit Z. Fox

Eep.

Shog9

clearly he was making too much $$$$$$ for them to afford

enderland

@Shog9 being newest guy was his problem..

user55340

5:41 PM

Tis the season for budgeting.

Shog9

aw

Jimmy Hoffa

@Shog9 eh, alternatively they made a bunch of money and decided since they made money they were clearly highly valuable people with inherent worth far beyond needing piddly old him.

user55340

In other news, tomorrow is one year here for me.

Jimmy Hoffa

3 mins ago, by Ixrec

I'm clearly not being cynical enough

user55340

Though I think of it as today- first Monday of the first full pay period of the year.

Shog9

5:44 PM

@JimmyHoffa try breckenridge whiskey. A good reminder that you can call just about anything whiskey and some people do.

Thomas Owens

@MichaelT Have you demanded your promotion yet?

user55340

@Shog9 wired.co.uk/news/archive/2010-08/24/pissky

user55340

@ThomasOwens public sector - to promote you transfer to another Department. Which isn't too hard.

Shog9

the hell...

user55340

Have Oded bring some next time.

Thomas Owens

5:47 PM

@MichaelT That's weird. In the federal government, you were up for promotion every year or two. Until you capped out and had to change positions or go to management.

Unless you started at the top. Then yeah, you kind of sit there.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Shog9 if I'm reading you right; I think this is the first time I've heard anybody claim breckenridge whiskey isn't great. Meh, I'll stick to the british stuff or Stranahans - which is hilariously called bourbon when it tastes nothing like the stuff and isn't made anywhere near Kentucky

user55340

This isn't an up or out type place.

Shog9

@JimmyHoffa Stranahans is good stuff.

breck... I don't know what they're doing, but it tastes like cheap moonshine.

user55340

@Shog9 another article on it: gizmodo.com/5630289/this-whiskey-was-made-from-urine

enderland

some people I think just like to troll RL

Shog9

5:51 PM

@enderland case in point: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist%27s_Shit

enderland

yeah, like that. lol

Jimmy Hoffa

@Shog9 I'll make sure to steer clear then. Other than beer I think our best booze is our wine and especially our mead IMO. It is interesting how many places are starting to make real grain alcohols here though

user55340

@Shog9 or time.com/3634443/cards-against-humanity-poop-black-friday

Shog9

yeah; there's a little distillery down the street here that's been doing some flavored and infused stuff. It's hit & miss, but it's also ~$20 a jar.

user55340

I've wanted to do infusions, but I don't drink enough.

user55340

5:54 PM

amazon.com/The-Bartenders-Companion-Original-Cocktails/dp/…

Jimmy Hoffa

@Shog9 you talking about that place in Writers square?

user55340

Some good infusion recipes in there.

Shog9

@JimmyHoffa naw, this place is in Monument, behind an auto shop

user55340

Proper answer: go there with jimmy and split the cost.

user55340

Note the $20/jar in comparison to $5/glass.

user55340

6:02 PM

Heh. Salesforce question on code golf.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Shog9 haha that sounds like an outright still..

Shog9

@JimmyHoffa heh... Well, I think it's two stills, but...

Robert Harvey

Drinking... from a jar... from a distillery. You value your life, don't you?

You'd have to ask the SQL committee that question, but my guess is just that they were too late in coming up with a viable standard, and they didn't want to favor any one particular vendor's proprietary extensions, so they simply chose something brand new in 2008. The great thing about standards is that you can have so many of them. — Robert Harvey 3 mins ago

Ampt

6:19 PM

Who looks at a JSP and says "Now theres the solution to all our problems!"?

Shog9

6:35 PM

maybe job security is all of your problems?

Thomas Owens

@Shog9 I don't have a problem with job security. But if I did, I think I would probably be drinking from jars from distilleries,

Shog9

mason jar liquor from behind the auto shop is the life

(I did not realize how sketchy that sounds until y'all pointed it out. Thanks.)

Thomas Owens