The Whiteboard - 2015-12-10 (page 2 of 2)

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9:03 PM

0

Q: How to encourage client to do some QA testing?

Question: how to encourage users to take the time to explicitly test and report issues with new releases, not to "test-as-they-go" in production projects. Background: I have a small client for whom I have written a suite of multimedia presentation tools. They are a nice client and we have a good...

client-relations qa

oh goodness that is just backwards

If you're invested in your client doing well; you should see to very solid testing before releasing to them. Clients are not testers. Hire a tester, or do your own testing, or write coded tests, but if you want to feel absolutely certain your stuff works for your clients, test before you give it to them. — Jimmy Hoffa 22 secs ago

9:44 PM

alright, opinion tme

i need to build a cheesy little database to store some basic data, that will be accessed via HTTP/REST/similar, but the people that are going to be deploying and using this cheesy database aren't the most tech savvy

what's the easiest to deploy and run way of doing things

and please convince me it's not PHP

python/flask

You need a web API, flask is great for that.

anything would work, as long as deployment is as simple as “unpack this archive, then run this script found inside”.

you could even use Haskell!

@amon: that is what I want, though as I understand not all can be deployed that way in your typical cPanel type webhost

although maybe that's changed?

@AaronHall: can python be hooked up via FastCGI/whatever on a typical cPanel type webhost? to my knowledge it cannot.

well that seems to be a new constraint that you've introduced after I made my suggestion, but ok. Use Haskell or Personal Home Page.

I'm not using haskell are you insane

2

9:51 PM

Then by process of elimination you have your answer.

that answer is weak

Man, I'm good at this, give me another one.

@whatsisname A Microsoft guy might be able to push a .Net/C# solution at you. But I'm not a Microsoft guy.

I don't know anything about cPanel.

deployment of a .net solution is way more difficult than is acceptable for this thing

user55340

Anyone want to delete a holy war?

which is too bad because if it wasn't I'd probably be done with the thing in less time than it takes to ramble about it here

9:59 PM

oh it's Linux!

@MichaelT: where

Yeah, Python/Flask should do.

@AaronHall not necessarily

whatevs - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPanel

I'm talking about "Calls the computer tower the Hard Drive" levels of tech-savviness here

user55340

10:00 PM

0

Q: Single Line Conditions and Loops - Best Practice

Possible Duplicate: Should curly braces appear on their own line? Which would be a better way to format single line loops and conditions in C Sharp if (i < j) { arr[i] = sum; } foreach (int k in arr) { Console.WriteLine(k); } or if (i < j) arr[i] = sum; foreach (int k...

user41796

@whatsisname Can you get away with using a simple file for your database?

user55340

Start there, then go for its duplicate.

user55340

151

Q: Should curly braces appear on their own line?

Should curly braces be on their own line or not? What do you think about it? if (you.hasAnswer()) { you.postAnswer(); } else { you.doSomething(); } or should it be if (you.hasAnswer()) { you.postAnswer(); } else { you.doSomething(); } or even if (you.hasAnswer()) you.po...

coding-style code-formatting

@GlenH7: probably, but it needs to be internet accessible

user41796

Browser based?

10:02 PM

hopefully I'll be able to convince the company that wants this that they should host the thing instead of having their dealers do it, which would save everyone 95% of the problems

user41796

as most modern browsers provide their own persistence store

@GlenH7: no, a desktop app will talk to it

user41796

I think IIS / IIS express has some sort of lightweight sql DB baked into it as well

basically this company makes these devices, which the company then has dealers sell to end users

the dealers setup, configure these things for the end users, and update them with new stuff from time to time

SQLite can be quite convenient if you need an easily deployed “database”

10:05 PM

the way the device is setup is by putting files on a flash drive and plugging the flash drive into the device, apparently that step is too difficult for most users, so I made them an application which generates an exe that the end user runs that detects the flash drive, then loads the files on it and whatnot

they want to be able to tell if the users run the exe and deploy the updates and whatnot

so the exe will need to contact this web service and let it know whats going on

so, the difficulty is that the dealers aren't exactly system admins, might not even have webpages beyond a single html page, etc

user41796

Is it a .net desktop app?

the application is a .net app yes and the exe is a straight win32 program

user41796

If so, just use the configuration file for that. Kind of an abuse for the config file, but it will work

well, the exe stuff is a solved issue and is working (which a config file wouldn't solve for various reasons)

user41796

app.config wasn't meant to be used that way, but it will work

10:08 PM

and having it talk to some webservice is no problem

the problem is that I don't want to do tech support for these random dealers in setting up some web app

user41796

Out of ideas then, sorry

PHP is likely the best solution as it's nearly an unzip and go, but it's PHP

well, 2nd best, convincing the company to host it and then charging the dealers for it is the best

on the upside, $$$$

having the company run it would mean they'd be able to keep tabs on the dealers too

I like to call it Personal Home Page.

10:23 PM

Hoo boy: programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/304778/…

"this question is already closed"

awww

Cookie monster tried to write answer. Somebody took cookies away. Cookie monster sad.

user55340

You are correct @ratchetfreak. Robert re-opened a couple of questions he shouldn't have. I should suspend him. From the ceiling. With hooks. — Yannis ♦ 40 secs ago

@MichaelT Only 42 answers. I think we need more.

Oh, wait.

42... something about that number...

10:30 PM

@MichaelT I wonder if you can actually suspend an SE employee, or if they have "superpowas"

user55340

@enderland you're a mod. See if you can suspend an SE employee for a day.

@MichaelT some things are best left undiscovered ;)

user55340

1

Q: Change the Reopen review queue to allow for a *different* close reason

In the Reopen Review Queue, add functionality for "leave closed" so that it may become "leave closed and change close reason." One of the things that is not uncommon at all in the reopen review queue is someone changing a question from say... 'unclear' to 'clear, but completely off topic', or on...

feature-request review

Lightness Races in Orbit

11:11 PM

it's cute how you still care

@RobertHarvey 404 ffs gimme 10k

@LightnessRacesinOrbit P.SE 10k is rather tricky.. No FGITW will ever get you it.

user image

and tomorrow is WFH day

Anybody here dealt with RTF format files in a web browser ?

I liked the Busnel better... ah well, this too is good.

11:31 PM

@JimmyHoffa You have to either convert it from RTF to HTML (there are ways to do it), or link it and let the user's computer open Word (or their editor of choice).

You could also potentially display it in an RTF editor control.

@RobertHarvey other direction around: Want them to edit shit in a text box and post it as RTF to my server. I can handle the JavaScript, just never constructed RTF in a browser control before...

richtexteditor.com

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa cry

@JimmyHoffa the 1990s called

@RobertHarvey lol ribbon interface

@LightnessRacesinOrbit my boss thinks he's so clever using the fanciful tooling available in MS sometimes- like an RTF control in WinForms which makes it easy to construct RTF documents! Nevermind that it's a ridiculously un-interoperable...

Lightness Races in Orbit

there's a special place in my heart reserved for developers who mimic Microsoft UIs in non-Microsoft products

11:34 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit do you have an escape hatch from .NET? These people are bananas. Scotch help me.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa :(

@LightnessRacesinOrbit: conversely, there is a special place in hell reserved for people that make UIs vastly different than convention for no good reason

Lightness Races in Orbit

@whatsisname true

@whatsisname no kidding

if you make anything resembling office software, not mimicking Microsoft is basically suicide

11:36 PM

if everyone mimicked MS UIs all the time things would be 1000x better

@Ixrec you would think...

Lightness Races in Orbit

but I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that a Microsoft ribbon toolbar comes within three light years of "conventional" for a text editor, if for no other reason than it's entirely arbitrary and has no functional connection to the text editor. but another good reason is that only Microsoft does it. Well, and this guy.

@whatsisname I like Modal-based-UIs: Everything you do pops up a small modal window with something to do on it; but you won't know which one will come up until you dismiss the current one somehow! It's great!

@JimmyHoffa what is this 1995 on the interwebs?

Lightness Races in Orbit

@whatsisname uh r u on drugz

11:37 PM

@enderland my entire application exists as a series of JavaScript alert boxes!

you know whats funny, is despite my overwhelming technogrouchiness concerning just about everything, I actually think the ribbon is a step up

Lightness Races in Orbit

my first program was a VB macro for Word? Excel? that basically constituted an endless stream of MessageBox prompts to take you through the game story. there were a lot if Ifs inside...

@whatsisname I'm on the fence after getting used to it. I do think metro is a step up though; and that's just sad.

what exactly makes the ribbon a "ribbon"? is it that tabs are used to switch between toolbars?

@LightnessRacesinOrbit now you're cooking with fire!

Lightness Races in Orbit

11:38 PM

@Ixrec that, plus the vertical stacking, the semantic grouping, and the overall shiteness of it all

@Ixrec: more or less

I take it back; ribbon sucks. I just imagined if Visual Studio had a ribbon and experienced autonomic retention loss.

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa wait what

I can't stand flat design so I can't even look past that to try and find merits in metro

@JimmyHoffa: I'd take a ribbon over the current flat-design nonsense without hesitation

Lightness Races in Orbit

3

Q: Why doesn't MS apply the ribbon UI to Visual Studio?

We have seen that office has the ribbon UI since 2007. Now is 2010 and we all feel the great productivity the ribbon has brought to us. My question is why Visual Studio, now 2010, still not use the ribbon? What do you think? Please share.

visual-studio user-interface ribbon

11:40 PM

My main gripe about teh ribbon is it made shortcuts like 2x as many keys

I'm ok with flat design on things that are simple, and thus benefit from actually recognizing that they are simple

@whatsisname D:

Lightness Races in Orbit

@whatsisname I wouldn't mind flat design so much if it were done right. When "flat design" really just means removing all but two colours, removing all borders, removing basically every other visual hint of wtf's going on ... well that I mind.

metro contains some things that seem potentially good but I'm not sure if it can be separated from the obviously terrible things like throwing away all existing Windows desktop UI conventions

To be fair, I don't know of anything I do with the top of visual studio other than change the configuration/platform...

11:40 PM

I've avoided Win8+ so far

there is no such thing as flat design done right

but if it looked different I would feel terrified that something was gone

7 or 8 years from now we'll be back to actual contrast and colors

Lightness Races in Orbit

@enderland My main gripe about ribbon is that, as is so in vogue nowadays, it's Microsoft telling me which features it thinks I need to use most often. And then hiding those two features I actually use most often in some place surprising and hard to find.

Ironically I also really hate UIs that move shit around because it's detected what I use most often.

to be fair, that was just as big a problem in the previous design

11:41 PM

@Ixrec it's really quite good for touch; far better than the alternative touch approaches.

Lightness Races in Orbit

Just have a good old fashioned menubar ffs where everything is there and I need only two clicks to find whatever I need, and it doesn't move around.

I don't think I'm enough of a power user on my phone to care about whatever advantages metro might have over my current iOS

the problems I regularly encounter are mostly internet not being good enough when I'm on the go

Lightness Races in Orbit

@whatsisname I believe that there is but we likely haven't seen it yet

@Ixrec: that's the thing, is that metro and whatnot isn't for power users, its for n00bs and people that don't actually do real work

@LightnessRacesinOrbit to be fair, they're just trying to steal a play from Apples playbook where you give your users one and only one option, and if it doesn't do what they want, you convince them with hipsters and fanciful marketing campaigns that they actually wanted what it did, and what they did want wasn't what they wanted.

well, except for the whole skilled marketing thing. MS totally blows at marketing.

11:43 PM

@whatsisname hm, ok, what's it like on a phone? I've only ever seen Win8 on a laptop

I've never used a windows phone because I'm not insane

Lightness Races in Orbit

user image

haha

Lightness Races in Orbit

This is fair to middling. Would still prefer a good proper design.

@JimmyHoffa right

what the hell is that monstrosity

what is the purpose

11:44 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit that's multiple screens, you scroll around them intuitively.

you have a bunch of crap jammed together for no reason

@whatsisname that's a sample I presume, or hyperboly - nothing on a windows phone has that much shit.

Lightness Races in Orbit

pretty sure that wasn't Windows Mobile

@whatsisname each of those would be zoomed in, and you typically traverse horizontally between screens, and up/down in one screen

just looking at that thing raises my bloodpressure

11:46 PM

@LightnessRacesinOrbit whatever it is, it's silly. I've used windows phones for years after having had androids for years because - they're less power-featureful than android phones, they're more phone-ful than android phones. More intuitive for browsing the web and doing basic stuff than android.

Lightness Races in Orbit

I honestly think web & app & OS designers need to stop following trends and instead make nice things

It's genuinely sad that some dipshit has managed to get flat design popular so now all the other dipshits are putting it on everything

that screen you posted isn't anything I've ever seen in a windows phone

yeah, except making nice things is really, really hard

Lightness Races in Orbit

And the rest of us now have to wait 7-8 years for the trend to die out before we can actually use anything again

@whatsisname also, nobody likes to use critical analysis skills when they can just follow the crowd. Back to cognitive load I mentioned the other day about thinking for yourself.

11:47 PM

just like flat design, these stupid god-wretched pages that have 9000 vertical pixels/word are commonplace

Lightness Races in Orbit

@whatsisname I dunno, everyone likes my latest GUI and it's about as flat as your mum

@whatsisname oh god yes

2 days ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

The fact that you lose the ability to migrate is the number 1 selling point for staying away from big frameworks and going the micro-library route. Replacing small individual libraries is easy, the flexibility is significant; but the cognitive load is greater in dealing with many disparate libraries rather than one all-encompassing-industry-demands-its-the-best-tutorials-everywhere-just-follow-‌the-crowd-library — Jimmy Hoffa 39 secs ago

2 days ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey the cognitive load is there in a variety of ways though; selling people on doing something that doesn't follow the crowd is expensive, constructing your own qualitative analyses to evaluate success as well as sell decisions, but first and foremost is the integration cost of having to tie multiple things together on your own when there's no guidance on how to do so.

Lightness Races in Orbit

font size 12pt is dead. font size 10000000pt is in. fuck me.

yesterday, by psr

@JimmyHoffa Yes. Practically speaking, my current problem is invisible quality vs. visible ng-grid means quality loses, and I can't win that argument. Even with most other devs. Oh well, at least I'm not maple_shaft.

@LightnessRacesinOrbit what ?? Screen resolution is increasing and self-blinding is becoming the new black?

Lightness Races in Orbit

don't be so bloody racist

11:50 PM

so that image linked up there

apparently is a screenshot of some sort of web UI toolkit

that numerous thousands of people have downloaded, presumably thinking about using it

kill me now

Could this be a question for Programmers.SE? Finally??? — Lightness Races in Orbit 35 secs ago

@whatsisname ...I really don't understand the complaints about flat UI. I remember when Visual Studio went flat everybody lost their shit but I just thought it looked a little nicer and I wasn't sure what they changed

Lightness Races in Orbit

@JimmyHoffa the all-caps menu bar buttons were a nice touch

@JimmyHoffa are you colorblind by any chance?

Lightness Races in Orbit

@whatsisname s/colorblind/colourblind/ s/colourblind/blind/

11:52 PM

flat UI removes a lot of visual contextual information

it throws away color, it throws away depth

Lightness Races in Orbit

it throws away $billions in usability studies..

@whatsisname I think it brings up relevant context and get's rid of minute details that confuse the focus

Lightness Races in Orbit

how can it bring up relevant context when it brings up no context at all, by design

for example intellisense in visual studio, used to have different color icons for whether something was a field, property, method, etc

@LightnessRacesinOrbit where there is contrast is only where things genuinely shift; rather than having contrasts all over

11:54 PM

now there are icons that are very similar in color and differ only in shape

for power users things are a bit different - for "I just want to use a widget and I want it to highlight only the most significant things" I think it makes perfect sense

Lightness Races in Orbit

sounds like you're comparing "bad UI" with "good UI", not "not flat" with "flat". inevitably there's some overlap but those are not the same thing

I have no idea what anyone's comparing

a different part of my brain has to get used now to distinguish what's what, instead of part of it that is idling

Lightness Races in Orbit

VS (and Android) removing all colour from icons is fucking insane

our eyes can detect colour FOR A REASON

it's monumentally idiotic to force everything into effectively two-tone

11:56 PM

I'm looking at VS screenshots, and I see colored icons

@Ixrec I like you for your unrelenting demand that everyone make fucking sense. You provide a valuable service. Scotch to you sir.

bringing up relevant context and getting rid of minute details has nothing to do with flat design

Lightness Races in Orbit

@Ixrec either you need to [not] upgrade, or they came to their senses and put the colour back since I last saw a VS screenshot

@JimmyHoffa it's a habit, probably job related, since I'm not very good at implementing things that don't make sense

@Ixrec they got rid of the contrast between icons, they removed serifs from text and made everything capitals rather than capitalized first letters

Honestly I'm argueing on behalf of metro style more than anything. I could give a crap about Visual Studio UI; I only interact with the various windows other than the main one like Solution Explorer. If they broke that, I would have a hissy.

11:58 PM

user image

Lightness Races in Orbit

user image

idiotic

that and those long-vertical webpages; I genuinely think they look nice and they have a pleasant UX for my purpose. If I want to traverse deeper into the site, all of that is at the top - if I want to inspect the current page's topic more closely, I scroll down and it grows to be more focused. The few times the appearance shifts when scrolling down are signalling rather than having lots of visual noise

@Ixrec: look at 2010 vs 2015, there is much more contrast and color in 2010

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