Language Overflow

12:36 AM

@snailboat Or perhaps of what verbs do.

0

Q: Is "KUDOS" only to be told for the event that went over in the past?

Is " Kudos" only to be used to wish somebody for the event that happened to them in the past or even can use it for the event which is going to happen in near future?

grammar

Nice tag, eh?

There is nothing, mind you nothing, that has anything to do with grammar in that post.

Let the record show that people are idiots.

Anonymous

1:53 AM

It's too bad most people don't know (or haven't given any thought to) what 'grammar' is. And people who do often use different definitions of grammar without ever spelling then out, so people think they're communicating when they aren't really.

Anonymous

To me, grammar is basically morphology (grammar below the word level) and syntax (grammar above the word level).

Anonymous

Morphology and syntax are useful terms but still very general.

tchrist

This had a sentences tag on it:

0

Q: I am neither robber nor police. Neither I am robber nor police

I am neither robber nor police. Neither I am robber nor police. Hallo, teachers. Please guide me , which sentence should be correct? I often saw ( neither....nor) is sometimes used in the middle of sentences and sometimes it is used out of sentences as I added two examples here. Would you l...

word-order neither-nor correlating-conjunctions

@snailboat For me, too.

Anonymous

Oh, I wish I could edit chat messages from my phone!

tchrist

> Neither am I a robber nor am I the police.

Is there something I may fix for you?

Anonymous

1:56 AM

I'm not sure whether I meant to type haven't given any thought to or just give any thought to, but I seem to have come up with a syntactic blend of the two!

tchrist

heh

How about: "nor have given any thought to"

Maybe just "or" not "nor". I'm contaminated.

StoneyB

But everybody here thinks very hard about grammar. They all know what grammar is: it's what the teacher told them was wrong.

And tense is all those different things you do with verbs.

tchrist

2:13 AM

So grammar is related to manichean notions of right and wrong, eh? :)

People have made a "pronominal-conjugation" tag and I'm afraid to fix it. :(

StoneyB

Sounds like something Kim Davis wouldn't authorize.

BY the authority vested in me by the State &c I hereby prounounce you I, me, he, him, she, her, it, we, us, they and them.

Anonymous

Pronominal conjugation? Hmmph. I tend to use inflection as a general term and avoid both conjugation and declination, but that's in part due to Japanese linguistics.

tchrist

Yeah, me too.

StoneyB

So you decline to conjugate?

Anonymous

Oh, I'd star that if my phone let me :-)

tchrist

2:20 AM

Also, conjugation tends to be only the 1/2/3 sg/dl/pl set for a certain tense and mood or whatnot. It doesn't indicate other possible inflections; for example, participles agreeing in number and gender.

@StoneyB No more taking thee I see, though you've left open the door till death do us part.

Anonymous

I think more people know the word conjugation than know either inflection or ~~declination~~ declension.

tchrist

Declension?

Anonymous

Sure, that thingy.

StoneyB

Yah, I was about to say, that's what they called it in my day.

tchrist

First conjugation, second declension, third exhortation.

Declining is for case, conjugation for person.

Thing is, with pronouns, you have both.

Thing is, in a language with only pronouns changing for case instead of also nouns, adjectives, articles, it’s hard worth having a name for it.

Anonymous

2:25 AM

I see 活用 most often :-)

tchrist

translate: 活用

(from Japanese) Use

Anonymous

Inflection

StoneyB

In German and OE, with adjectives and other adnominals, you also have strong and weak declensions.

tchrist

Yes, right.

Anonymous

It has a different meaning outside linguistics, though.

Anonymous

2:28 AM

In Japanese grammar, word classes are divided into inflecting and non-inflecting groups, and there's usually no distinction made between types of inflection.

tchrist

There are also strong and weak verbs.

Except that this was regular in OE.

I think having strong verbs is a PIE characteristic, actually.

Latin had them, as do its children. But as in English, they are taught as irregulars now.

StoneyB

My impression is that it is regular weak verbs which are the innovation in Germanic languages.

But I haven't looked at this for almost 50 years.

tchrist

Gosh, I don't know.

The strong verbs have a close vowel (/i/ or /u/) in the preterite stems.

It feels like "normal" i-mutation.

StoneyB

"The weak conjugation of verbs is an innovation of Proto-Germanic (unlike the older strong verbs, the basis of which goes back to Proto-Indo-European). While primary verbs (those inherited from PIE) already had an ablaut-based perfect form which was the basis of the Germanic strong preterite, secondary verbs (those derived from other forms after the break-up of PIE) had to form a preterite otherwise; this necessitated the creation of the weak conjugation." - Wikipedia

tchrist

Cool!

And that shows that strong verbs were in PIE, too.

I’m thinking of stuff like do/did for English or facio/feci from facere in Latin, for example, which has an /i/ in the preterite stem in the daughter languages (faccio/feci in Italian; je fais/fis in French, hago/hice in Spanish, faço/fiz in Portuguese; etc) because of how Latin /e/ evolved.

Italian being the most conservative after Sardinian.

Those are of course all taught as irregulars, since they well are.

StoneyB

2:50 AM

Same in English. Between sound change, loss of inflectional endings, and analogization few ModE strong verbs have consistently maintained the OE ablaut.

Damkerng T.

10:04 AM

0

Q: Past Indefinite or Past Continuous

I have a simple at first sight question, but it seems confusing for some of my collegues. There is the sentence, where we need to insert Past Simple or Past Continuous, please help to fill these gaps Scott and his friends were playing a game of volleyball on the beach. The boys ... (to throw) t...

untagged

The likeliest answer would be:

> Scott and his friends were playing a game of volleyball on the beach. The boys threw the ball over the girl's heads into the sea and the girls were laughing.

But why?

Explaining aspects is hard.

Damkerng T.

10:27 AM

Hmm... there was only one ball...

So, this would work too,

> Scott and his friends were playing a game of volleyball on the beach. The boys were throwing the ball over the girl's heads into the sea and the girls were laughing.

Actually, now I think any combination would work!

(With "the boys were throwing ... and the girls laughed" coming as the least natural one)

in ELL's Cabin, 3 mins ago, by jimsug

http://www.npr.org/2015/09/26/443170619/meet-the-man-who-invents-languages-for-a‌-living

Damkerng T.

11:09 AM

1

Q: What is this "it"?

He usually works for so long as he feels it necessary to perfect his task. I found this in an exercise book. What is this "it"? Is it correct? It means "He works until he can say, "I'm satisfied!"?

grammar

It's interesting how we omit things.

Anonymous

Is something omitted?

Anonymous

Perhaps to be?

Damkerng T.

Oh, I meant in TRomano's answer. It says it can be omitted.

In his own words "But it is not necessary".

Anonymous

Oh, that's not omission of it.

Anonymous

The grammar is different.

Damkerng T.

11:24 AM

Hmm... I think you're right!

> He feels it's necessary to perfect his task.

> He feels it necessary to perfect his task.

> He feels necessary to perfect his task.

(I should've written He feels that it's necessary to perfect his task as the first alternative, before the three.)

Anonymous

*He feels necessary to perfect his task.

Anonymous

This is evidence that you can't just omit it.

Anonymous

Now, how might the structure of this example differ from the one in the question with as long as?

Damkerng T.

Because to perfect his task is an adjunct.

> To perfect his task, he usually works for so long (as he feels it necessary).

tchrist

@snailboat I don't think so long as works in the original.

Anonymous

11:37 AM

I'm sorry, I meant to talk about the as long as version.

Anonymous

That version is only in the answer, not the question. I didn't realize that.

Anonymous

I don't think so long as really works either.

Damkerng T.

As an aside, saying that a baby was born by both the father and the mother is a little funny, don't you think? ;-) — Damkerng T. 21 secs ago

Hmm... on second thought, it may not be that funny in another language.

Better delete that.

tchrist

The father bore no burden for nine months.

Anonymous

I'd be interested to hear about more languages where be born is similar to English or Japanese.

Damkerng T.

11:44 AM

Is it the same in Japanese?

Anonymous

It's quite similar!

Anonymous

Although passives in Japanese are marked morphologically

Damkerng T.

Hmm... in Thai it's a bit complicated. We have เกิด (or กำเนิด, which is more archaic as as active verb for the child) as an active verb for both the mother and the baby (and to some extent, for the father too). If we want to be specific, we use ให้กำเนิด (ให้ + กำเนิด, where ให้ = give). But we also have a more direct word คลอด, which is approx. about the same as "deliver".

Anonymous

In both languages be born / umareru doesn't behave like passives usually do. In neither language is it clear whether they should be called passives at all.

Anonymous

Hmm, my sentence turned out clunky.

Damkerng T.

11:48 AM

And telling which word is more appropriate in which register or which one sounds more formal in a specific occasion is not strightforward.

Anonymous

That does sound complicated!

Damkerng T.

Real language is usually complicated!

But we can simplify that, like, a lot.

(Use only this for this, and that for that, and you'll always be safe. Something like that.)

Anonymous

Sometimes I think the sentences I type on my phone and on my computer end up really different, and the only reason I can think of is the greater mismatch between the speed at which I think and type on my phone.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat That happens to me almost all the time!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. A baby rule for being born!

Damkerng T.

11:51 AM

(Like, aww, this is too slow, how could I cut down my words? ...)

Anonymous

How appropriate! :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Indeed!

Anonymous

I like typing Japanese on my phone, though. It's really quite fast.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... interesting... I think born (เกิด/กำเนิด/คลอด) doesn't work passively in Thai at all!

That reminds me something Fantasier said.

Anonymous

What's that?

Damkerng T.

11:56 AM

The passive voice may not be something at the core of Thai originally.

tchrist

Born is a past passive participle already.

Damkerng T.

I'm pretty sure that this sentence cannot be translated into Thai without converting it into the active voice first:

> John Smith was born on April 1, 1950 by Mary Jones Smith

Oh, we can do that, by reading "was born" as something active!

> จอห์น สมิธ เกิดวันที 1 เมษายน ค.ศ. 1950 โดย แมรี่ โจนส์ สมิธ

> [ จอห์น สมิธ John Smith ] [ เกิด was born ] [ วันที 1 เมษายน ค.ศ. 1950 (on) April 1, 1950 ] [ โดย by ] [ แมรี่ โจนส์ สมิธ Mary Jones Smith ]

Anonymous

That's what Japanese grammarians have done, so dictionaries list the form umareru as an intransitive verb that just happens to be the same as the passive form of umu.

Anonymous

It's easier to do that in Japanese than English since the passive is marked with a suffix, -(r)are-

Damkerng T.

1:41 PM

0

Q: I am thinking he won't come here

I am thinking he won't come here. Correct it where necessary. Explain it with reasons. How to correct the sentence with explanation?

sentences

What do you think needs correction? It's a perfectly fine sentence as it is. — StoneyB 30 mins ago

I wonder if it's about the false rule that think can't be used with the progressive aspect.

tchrist

1:53 PM

What a strange notion!

Damkerng T.

2:07 PM

Can't we say, I think instead of I am thinking? — user124234 21 mins ago

A-ha! I guessed exactly right!

Anonymous

There aren't many typically stative verbs that never appear as dynamic verbs in the progressive. But some verbs are more restricted than others.

Damkerng T.

Indeed! BTW, another book just arrived! (English Verb Classes and Alternations)

Anonymous

I think we must have a lot of discussions of this on ELL already. And yay!

Damkerng T.

I guess so. I'm pretty sure that we can close it as duplicate, but of what question?

Damkerng T.

2:22 PM

A Google Translate Translation of the Day:

> HRM module can help various systems of your bank can operate smoothly and efficiently.

tchrist

@DamkerngT. He'd have to actually ask something to do that.

Damkerng T.

> Source: HRM โมดูลสามารถช่วยให้ระบบต่าง ๆ ของธนาคารของท่านสามารถทำงานได้อย่างราบรื่นและมีประสิทธิภาพ

"Correct it where necessary. Explain it with reasons. How to correct the sentence with explanation?"

That's two commands and one question (I think).

tchrist

That's proofreading. Or something. I cannot tell what he is asking.

Indeed. Commands are impolite requests, not questions.

Damkerng T.

If we changed it to "[the example sentence] Correct it where necessary. Explain it with reasons. -- How to correct the sentence with explanation?" It would become a homework question.

tchrist

Homework questions can be legitimate, although this, well, doesn't seem to be one of those.

Damkerng T.

2:27 PM

nods -- I haven't checked, but 447 rep points should mean that the user is not very new.

BTW, the result of Google Translate is interesting because it's almost in good English.

7 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

> HRM module can help various systems of your bank can operate smoothly and efficiently.

tchrist

I never get anything good out of Google Translate. Ever. It's always between a little wrong and insanely wrong.

Damkerng T.

LOL

> จำใส่ใจไว้ว่าแกไม่ได้เกิดออกมาเอง แต่แม่ต่างหากที่เป็นคนเกิด(หัว)แกออกมา

That's a very difficult thing to translate from Thai to English.

> [ จำใส่ใจไว้ว่า keep in mind that] [ แกไม่ได้เกิด you weren't born ] [ออกมาเอง by yourself] [ แต่แม่ต่างหาก but it was I (the mother) ] [ ที่เป็นคนเกิด(หัว) who bore ] [ แกออกมา you out ].

Does that work?

tchrist

Not the "out" at the end.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Thanks!

tchrist

4:36 PM

-1

A: Give me a call when available

I don't wanna hurt u but can u give me ur no; if possible

Why does this happen?

Damkerng T.

I have no idea!

I don't know the origin of "live life to the fullest".

But a translation of John 10:10 uses it.

tchrist

So it does.

The Vulgate has something like "... I come that they might have life and that they might have it in abundance": fur non venit nisi ut furetur et mactet et perdat ego veni ut vitam habeant et abundantius habeant

That they might have an abundant life, perhaps.

Damkerng T.

nods

tchrist

I don't know the Greek, and looking it up wouldn't help me much. I'd have to unravel it all.

Damkerng T.

> I came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance [to the full, till it overflows].

Another variant.

tchrist

5:00 PM

The Latin tracks the Greek reasonably well here; it just had ζωην εχωσιν, so "have life" with zoen for life. Any fullness inference comes from the other things to have, περισσον εχωσιν, with perisson for abundance. It's an adjective in the neuter singular accusative, but it's from περισσός. Don’t ask me what it's agreeing with here. Probably some convention on that; Latin had some.

It seem to be a substantive use.

Sorry, I was thinking -a not -on.

Damkerng T.

8:26 PM

I just mistook Tom Hanks' voice for Robert Downey Jr's.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

They're close.

I wonder what you were doing this time.

Hey have you watched Sherlock Holmes: A game of Shadows @Dam?

Damkerng T.

Is that the 1st, or 2nd?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

The 5th. What do you mean?

Damkerng T.

Huh? I remember that there were two of them.

The recent Sherlock Holmes movies, I mean.

Anyway, I've watched both, so the answer should be yes. :D

tchrist

The Sherlock series is good.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

8:30 PM

What's the name of the other one?

Damkerng T.

I think the first one was just Sherlock Holmes.

@tchrist I missed it. (I think; I'm not even sure if they ran it over here.)

tchrist

Sherlock (TV series)

Sherlock is a British crime drama television series and a contemporary adaptation of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes detective stories. Created by Steven Moffat and Mark Gatiss, it stars Benedict Cumberbatch as Sherlock Holmes and Martin Freeman as Doctor John Watson. Nine episodes have been produced, the first three of which were broadcast in 2010. Series two was broadcast in 2012, and a third series was broadcast in 2014. The third series has become the UK's most watched drama series since 2001. Sherlock has been sold to over 200 territories. Sue Vertue and Elaine Cameron of Hartswood...

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@tchrist It's good. I enjoyed A game of shadows better.

Though it's a bit too full of slow motion scenes, which is so 2011.

tchrist

How would you know? You’re not old enough to remember 2011.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Chemicals always surprise you.

For instance, TIL that asymmetry allows for two products in Keto-Enol tautomerism.

Damkerng T.

8:34 PM

BTW, what does "off-topic because... (too old to migrate)" mean?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@DamkerngT. It means you can't vote to migrate. Not like we can.

It happens when the question is older than two weeks IIRC.

tchrist

Three months, I believe.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Three months?

Three weeks maybe.

tchrist

Perhaps.

Damkerng T.

This one is a little over two years!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

8:36 PM

What's its Q ID?

Damkerng T.

Ah, I lost it! (I voted and moved on.)

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

LOL TC TC TC - You just couldn't leave them alone, could you?

That's 8 reviews for me. ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ

tchrist

When things need doing, I doos them.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

(づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ anyway.

Damkerng T.

8:52 PM

Only doesn't always focus the word immediately following it. You're right that "The new manual only confused the PA" could mean all it did was confuse, but it's ambiguous―it could also mean "It didn't confuse other staff". In speech, we could distinguish these by stressing either confused or PA, but it's ambiguous in writing. — snailboat Jul 8 '14 at 18:47

^Worth noting

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

9:17 PM

@Dam @Dam @Dam

0

Q: Refrase . what word can be instead of thai?

Most Americans believe wealth is a reward for hard work and that it is possible to have a good standard of living if a person works hard. This conviction is believed to stem from the Protestant [ˈprɒtɪst(ə)nt] religion, which holds "thai" gaining wealth goes along with self-improvement of ...

error

tchrist

Salsa, I tell you, salsa!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

But @Dam isn't salsa.

tchrist

I mean, like whose thought to not leap straight to salsa when they think of thai, eh?

Damkerng T.

Huh?

tchrist

It's an OCD reader bugged by a bugged OCR reader.

As for thai=salsa, I just had this and was incredibly surprised at how delicious it is.

Damkerng T.

9:19 PM

I guess it's that.

tchrist

Aye.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

It's a bugged OCD-bugged reader bugged by a bugged OCR-bugged reader.

tchrist

Bugger that.

I should tell Shog about Yai's, he might like it.

There are less incendiary variants as well.

RECIPE: tomatoes, scallions, ginger, cilantro, garlic, lime juice, Thai chiles, salt, pepper.

I’m sure if I tried to put those together it wouldn’t come out as tasty. Well, maybe not.

Depends on how hungry I am. :)

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I'm drooling.

And it's 1 a.m. here.

Damkerng T.

Hee

I wonder which Yai it is.

tchrist

9:25 PM

@DamkerngT. This one

I picked it up down at my corner store just a couple blocks away.

Damkerng T.

ยาย (yai) = grandma, ใหญ่ (yai) = big, ยัย (yai) = a cutesy word approx. girly but used in the place of Miss

tchrist

Oh maybe it's the one on the right not the one on the left then. :)

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Grandmas aren't tasty. O.o

Damkerng T.

> including how to make a Thai salmon salad passed down from her mom – Leland’s yai

tchrist

Yup.

Damkerng T.

9:28 PM

Sounds like it's yai's recipe. :D

tchrist

Lime hot sauce: Thai chilis, filtered water, organic lime juice, bell pepper, ginger, cilantro, sea salt

Ginger and lime and cilantro: how can you go wrong?

Damkerng T.

:D

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

STOP IT you're torturing me!

tchrist

> A light, fresh tasting hot sauce with a zing of lime and hint of ginger – perfect for everyday use. Our hot sauces are inspired by Nam Phrik, literally translated to “spicy liquid,” a sauce made in many variations throughout Thailand.

I want the salmon salad recipe. :)

Damkerng T.

I'm pretty sure that it was originally some sort of salmon + some veggies + Nam Phrik.

Nam Phrik is very important. :D

tchrist

9:32 PM

So I see!

Do you think it is served hot or cold?

Damkerng T.

Normally our dishes are served hot.

tchrist

I would think so, but they called it a "salad".

Damkerng T.

(Except for things with the sticky rice.)

That makes me curious too!

I think it's supposed to look like this.

tchrist

Oh I see, fancy!

Very colorful.

Damkerng T.

Red and green!

tchrist

9:36 PM

Looks like raw salmon. Which is fine.

It may be marinated in the lime, which "cooks" it.

Damkerng T.

I guess they cooked it first than let it cool down.

tchrist

Otherwise it’s salmon sashimi. :)

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

This is very interesting! and I agree that we should do something about it. I do have my own theory why the passive transformation was added to pedagogical English as a second language. And I can help collect patterns used in learner's grammar textbooks/courses. I've been gathering these patterns from textbooks (particularly in Wren & Martin, a well-known book used in India) and lecture notes around the web (which include an exotic term such as quasi-passive) for a while, but haven't really organized them. I think it's high time I organized them! — Damkerng T. 2 days ago

So that's your evil plan robot.

Damkerng T.

I still read the passive voice in the background.

Huh? Is it evil?

tchrist

9:37 PM

"was added", very sly.

Damkerng T.

:P

tchrist

Ceviche is sometimes very nice.

Damkerng T.

BTW, here are 21 rules of the transformation used in some part of the world! mitun.yolasite.com/resources/Voice%20change.pdf

tchrist

It’s lime-marinated raw seafood salad stuff.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Oh how did I miss so much stuff going on in meta?

Damkerng T.

9:40 PM

@tchrist The dish looks nice!

tchrist

You would like it: it has lime juice and cilantro and chiles. :)

Damkerng T.

Even The stone feels rough can be passivized! (The stone is rough when it is felt.)

tchrist

You would like it: it has lime juice and cilantro and chiles. :)

Damkerng T.

@tchrist I think I'll like it!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Guys would you think an editor's guide would encourage editing?

tchrist

9:42 PM

I don't know.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Hmm, for one thing we still don't have any consensus on whether we should edit grammar mistakes in the question or not.

Not one that I can see.

tchrist

Remember what Shog said about putting real work into an edit or not bothering.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Remembering is hard. Gimme a link.

tchrist

I think it was on MSO.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Well, I know there-s the "don't polish turds" rule.

I think it's something we should worry about after we see enough editing on site.

For instance, I pinned a 'don't polish turds' message in The Periodic Table.

Because those guys edit, and a lot.

tchrist

9:50 PM

Most questions need editing.

Even more need retagging.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

True.

But I inky see 3 copy editor badges.

What the, stupid autocorrect.

Haha the Japanese emojis look funnier in mobile.

*no article

tchrist

> Make your edits as complete as possible

According to the editing guidelines in the Help Center:

Edits are expected to be substantial and to leave the post better than you found it.
Please refrain from making multiple small edits to the same post, especially for suggested edits. Instead, fix everything you can all at once. Additionally, try to improve every aspect of the post that you can. Please try to improve all of the following in a single, comprehensive edit:

Spelling/grammar
Post title and tags

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Argh, I think I should sleep.

@tchrist That's the problem with the help center. It's useful for outsiders who want to see how to swim, but once you dived in it's garbage.

tchrist

> Here's the big problem: for all of the complaining about lousy reviews and bad edits being approved, there's remarkably little agreement on what, specifically, is wrong. Is it...

...Folks changing too much?
...Folks changing too little?
...Formatting vandalism?
...Rep for nothing and privs for free?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Or a mixture thereof.

tchrist

9:58 PM

> Be quick to edit. One huge advantage of real-time discussion is that you can coordinate editing efforts, perhaps removing the need to close at all. If you think you can salvage a question brought up for closing, say so - and if someone wants to edit, give them time to do so before jumping in. Naturally, close - edit - re-open is also a useful cycle that can be made much more efficient with real-time collaboration.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I haven't seen that on ELL.

Not as good as it's supposed to be.

Anyway, I zzz TC. I wonder if you should go and write some meta about the All Pacino tag.

tchrist

Ali Pachinko doesn't play here.

Damkerng T.

10:26 PM

A fruitful view is to question the question: What grammar book is this exercise from? Why does the book include this question? What is the point of the exercise? -- If the book doesn't make it clear, there would be probably no point in pursing this, and this would become a pointless pointless question. — Damkerng T. 8 secs ago

Too strong?

It's funny that I typed "pointless" twice. :-)

Anonymous

10:40 PM

Typing pointless twice could seem emphatic.

Anonymous

A pointless, pointless question!

Anonymous

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I think it's mostly recently that we "don't have any consensus".

Anonymous

For most of the time I've been on ELL, it's been pretty well accepted that we can fix any mistakes that aren't directly relevant to the question.

Anonymous

That makes the question easier for future readers to understand, which is a Good Thing.

Anonymous

After all, the question isn't just for the asker. It's for the legion of people typing random strings into Google who accidentally end up on Stack Exchange.

Anonymous

10:42 PM

I was surprised recently when a couple people voiced the opinion that we shouldn't fix up problems that had no bearing on the question itself.

tchrist

11:02 PM

@snailboat I think that to be a bad judgement call on their part, and that you were right to begin with .

Anonymous

11:41 PM

Well, it's something people can discuss on meta, at any rate.

Anonymous

@snailboat mmm ... In this case man is unmarked for case. It may be marked for genitive case. — StoneyB 2 days ago

Anonymous

@StoneyB Every time I'm talking about case it always primes me to say things like in this case!

Anonymous

And I always have to stop myself and avoid using the word case two different ways in the same sentence :-)

Anonymous

The question of how to treat the apostrophe-s thingy is a very tricky one.

Anonymous

The s-genitive, the Saxon genitive, whatever you'd like to call it.

Anonymous

11:50 PM

CGEL does present some good arguments that it isn't really a clitic . . .

Anonymous

I can't help but feel like their analysis is really messy, though.

Anonymous

linguisticsociety.org/sites/default/files/3524-6826-1-SM.pdf

Anonymous

I think the reason I'm reluctant to consider man a form that has "unmarked" and "genitive" case forms is that then you should be able to say that about almost any word in almost any word class. The preposition to? [the man she was speaking to]'s reaction is an example in CGEL, and that places the thingy on the end of a preposition. So do you say to has "unmarked" and "genitive" case forms? And pretty much every other word in the language?

Anonymous

It's true that the thingy attaches directly to to.

Anonymous

At least, you can't pronounce it separately.

Anonymous

11:59 PM

But I think the clitic/affix distinction kind of breaks down here.

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