Language Overflow - 2015-09-15

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Anonymous

6:40 AM

@DamkerngT. That's a good test to see whether they're verbal or not!

Hello!

Anonymous

Whether they take the same range of complementation they do as verbs or take noun-like complementation, whether they take verb-like or noun-like modification, whether they inflect like nouns, and so on.

Anonymous

Remember our example: the wanton killing(s) of the birds (takes determiner, takes adjectives as modifiers, takes of-PP but does not take direct object, inflects like a noun) vs. wantonly killing the birds (takes no determiner, takes adverbs as modifiers, does not take of-PP but does take direct object, does not inflect like a noun)

Anonymous

This is specifically discussing deverbal nouns, by the way.

Anonymous

In the former example, killing appears to be used just like a regular noun. It ends in -ing, but it doesn't really have any other characteristics that would make us think it's a verb.

6:45 AM

BTW, how would you think if someone saying their confused ideas to mean Their ideas were a bit confused?

Anonymous

In the latter example, it appears to be a verb form. The clause as a whole might be used much like a noun phrase, for example as the complement of a preposition, and so people might call it a "gerund", but within the clause it still appears verbal.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. What would I think? Hmm. I guess it works!

Thanks! So it can be used attributively.

Anonymous

We should look at actual usage to see what people say.

Anonymous

But I don't see any reason why not.

Anonymous

6:47 AM

amazon.co.jp/Clear-Confused-Ideas-Substance-Philosophy/dp/…

Right now I wonder how many verbs or adjective-from-verbs are like that.

Anonymous

google.com/…

Anonymous

I'm not sure.

(I mean, when both confusing ideas and confused ideas work.)

Anonymous

Although of course those mean different things.

6:49 AM

Hmm... I think they can be used to describe the same scenario, but perhaps from different angles.

Anonymous

Confusing ideas cause confusion.

Anonymous

Confused ideas are ideas that aren't entirely coherent due to the confusion of the author.

Confused ideas were made confused by not being well-organized. I think I would think along that lines.

Anonymous

Perhaps we could treat this as hypallage? That is, literally speaking the author is confused, not the ideas.

Anonymous

After all, ideas can't think.

Anonymous

6:51 AM

Hypallage being like "a drunken brawl", where literally speaking the brawl isn't inebriated (it's in fact an abstract concept incapable of drinking alcohol), the brawlers are.

Indeed! So I think confused/confusing is not alone, but I don't know how many of them we do have.

Anonymous

I certainly think that confused ideas are likely to be confusing.

Anonymous

But I don't think the two terms can be said to have the same meaning.

Almost always, I believe!

Anonymous

So I agree with you that both could potentially be used in the same scenario.

Anonymous

6:53 AM

@DamkerngT. There's a very large number of participial adjectives.

Only those pairs that both could be used attributively in the same scenario like confused/confusing.

Anonymous

Because of the functional overlap, there isn't always a clear boundary between the two categories in this position.

> Her baffled expression is baffling.

(I just made that up.)

Anonymous

Of course, we have to come up with a different set of tests to see if something is a deverbal adjective.

Anonymous

> That's very interesting!
> *She's very walking to the store!

6:55 AM

That's very awkward.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Although again, 'a baffling expression' means something different from 'a baffled expression'.

I think there must be a good name for this group of verbs.

@snailboat nods

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Group of verbs that have what characteristics?

I think they are verbs that can cause a state of mind to happen in the listener's mind.

Anonymous

When -ed and -ing forms (regardless of part of speech) formed on a single verb can both be used as attributive modifiers?

6:58 AM

Hmm... that sounds like a larger class of verb, but that sounds interesting too!

Anonymous

As in interesting / interested

Yes. That was my first thought.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, I was just trying to understand what you were trying to say, not propose a different class.

Anonymous

What characteristics are we trying to look for?

A verb that can impact the feeling or the thought of the listener somehow.

Anonymous

6:59 AM

Do you have any examples?

It interests me. It's interesting. I'm interested. -- It confuses me. It's confusing. I'm confused. — Damkerng T. 33 mins ago

Anonymous

Verb, adjective, ambiguous, verb, adjective, ambiguous?

I think the difficulty to discern "confused ideas" and "confusing ideas" would stem from the difficulty of this class of verb.

Anonymous

Oh, but they seem distinct to me.

@snailboat No, it's just that some learners may say "I interest" to mean "I'm interest" or "It's an interested idea" to mean "It's an interesting idea".

And this is confusing, because they're confused learners.

Anonymous

7:02 AM

:-)

^^

I'm pretty sure that a book for TEFL teachers must have a chapter or a section for this.

Anonymous

So, psych verbs with a stimulus and experiencer?

Ah, that sounds about right!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh, I'd believe it! I don't have one of those.

Anonymous

I'm still prioritizing books on Japanese, though :-)

7:05 AM

Hehe! I guessed that much. :D

Anonymous

I'm getting my own copy of Vance 2008 so I don't have to use the library's!

I'm sorry that I interrupted you while you were discussing the -ing verbs.

Anonymous

Oh! I don't feel interrupted.

Anonymous

I'm sorry, did I forget to finish saying something about something?

@snailboat Nice! I'm still waiting for my CGEL order confirmation!

Anonymous

7:07 AM

Oh!

Anonymous

I ordered the Vance today.

@DamkerngT. There's something in SFL about these verbs, I think.

@jimsug I bet!

I'm... trying to remember what it was. Ah, wait.

It's to do with Appraisal Theory by Martin.

The Language of Evaluation: Appraisal in English

(found that in Wikipedia)

7:11 AM

mmm. You want Attitude, which is concerned with emotions.

web.uam.es/departamentos/filoyletras/filoinglesa/Courses/LFC11/…

Thanks!

The theory doesn't focus on verbs, but rather includes all resources by which emotion can be invoked.

Now I have to relate that to -ed/-ing pairs.

nods

A-ha! I think I can be more specific about what class of verb I'm looking for.

They are verbs that usually used as psych verbs (i.e. their objects are usually people), but they can be used with things, too.

confuse is a bit different from interest because we can say "to confuse the matter", but we don't say "to interest the matter".

So, what I'm looking for is a sub-class of psych verbs that have secondary meanings that acts upon non-living things.

Confuse is one.

A-ha! Confound is another.

(a confounded effect, a confounding variable, a confounded someone)

7:40 AM

I understood you. I just wanted to know whether there is a difference in meaning in saying this is a confusing/confused situation. Thank you. — Ghaith Alrestom 32 secs ago

Aww... I think I failed.

Anonymous

0

Q: Understanding when -ing is a gerund or an adjective

A possible first step in developing a nonsexist vocabulary with which to analyze the works of the nineteenth-century writer Elizabeth Gaskell would be to stop referring to her as “Mrs. Gaskell.” How does one pin point that the "in developing" used here is not a gerund. Any guidelines to loca...

adjectives sentences gerund adjective-phrase

Anonymous

But it is a gerund. — snailboat 7 mins ago

Anonymous

I suppose, to be clear, I should say developing is a gerund, not in developing.

Anonymous

But it is a gerund. (Well, developing is, anyway.) — snailboat 6 secs ago

Anonymous

Brand new comment! ;-)

Anonymous

7:53 AM

Do you suppose the question wasn't intended to presuppose that it was not a gerund?

Anonymous

Use non-verbal language too. [non-verbal language is somehow 'universal' and could be understood by using common sense]. Lastly, it is really a good thing to help. Anybody will appreciate it (even if you have perfect or imperfect grammar). All the best! — shin 2 hours ago

Anonymous

But interestingly, non-verbal 'language' is not always universal!

Anonymous

A common gesture in one culture may be offensive in another.

Anonymous

And sometimes, something as simple as nodding or shaking your head might not mean what you expect.

Anonymous

But what is universal? Pointing, for example?

Anonymous

7:55 AM

Can you imagine a culture where pointing didn't, well, indicate?

Anonymous

I'm not especially well-traveled, myself.

Anonymous

Zapped my gerund comment...

8:14 AM

I risk posting my answer:

0

A: "Confusing" Vs "Confused"

Short answer: a confusing something and a confused something are similar, and closely related, but not necessarily the same. Let's try a simpler verb: interesting. There are 3 people in this example, A, B, and C. Suppose that, A interests B. -- Let's say that A successfully gets B's attention...

reading yours...

Ah, all gone!

@snailboat I think the Internet is making our gestures more universal than before.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. A lot of language and dialect leveling going on, too…

I wonder if there is anyone who lives in a city and never saw a Hollywood movie.

Oh, yes!

I worry about my first language a little.

Probably more than just a little.

But changes are unavoidable.

Anonymous

I'm not so worried about the major languages of the world at the moment (and Thai has enough speakers to qualify as one of those), but of course I can't see the future.

Anonymous

A lot of languages will die out in the near future, though. Just as they have been in the near past.

I feel a little sad for them.

Anonymous

8:23 AM

In many cases, people have deliberately driven a language to the point of extinction.

Aww... not ones of their own, perhaps.

Anonymous

We've discussed Ainu before, yes?

Yes, I think so.

Anonymous

The Ainu were forced to take Japanese names, follow Japanese customs, speak only Japanese and never Ainu…

Anonymous

And today the Ainu language is all but dead.

8:25 AM

Makes me think of the first Emperor of China.

Anonymous

They were discriminated against and exploited and their culture and language were destroyed.

Anonymous

In a lot of places, the standard variety of the language is viewed as the only actual language, and other varieties (and even other languages!) are viewed as versions of that language with errors.

Has anyone revived Ainu?

Anonymous

People are trying.

Anonymous

Shigeru Kayano (萱野茂, Kayano Shigeru) (June 15, 1926 – May 6, 2006) was one of the last native speakers of the Ainu language and a leading figure in the Ainu ethnic movement in Japan. == Early lifeEdit == Kayano was born in Nibutani village in Biratori, Hokkaidō, Japan. His family name at birth was Kaizawa, but he was adopted out by name to his aunt's family. He was raised in poverty by his alcoholic father and devout Buddhist mother, and gained his first appreciation of Ainu culture from his grandmother, Tekatte, who would share traditional stories in Ainu with him. == Cultural leaderE...

Anonymous

8:28 AM

> He was an acknowledged living master of the Ainu oral tradition, an expert in its folk arts and language. He led the effort to found 15 Ainu language schools.

Nice

Anonymous

Younger Ainu try to learn the language, and non-Ainu do too, but all basically as learners, and they're a fairly small minority. There aren't many ethnic Ainu to begin with, and most of them only speak Japanese.

Anonymous

According to Wikipedia, "Today, there are only around ten native speakers remaining, all of whom are at least 80 years old. There are also some semi-speakers who are at least 60 years old."

Anonymous

(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_language#Speakers)

Anonymous

I'm not sure the language can be "revived" at this point…

Anonymous

8:35 AM

ethnologue.com/about/language-status

Only 10!

Anonymous

Ethnologue puts Thai, English, and Japanese at 1, and Ainu at 8b

Anonymous

Say, if English isn't 0, then what is? :-)

Anonymous

> EGIDS 0 (International) is a category reserved for those few languages that are used as the means of communication in many countries for the purposes of diplomacy and international commerce. Because the Ethnologue organizes the language entries by country, EGIDS 1 (National) is the strongest vitality level that we report.

I think it must be one of the main languages used by UN.

Anonymous

8:41 AM

Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish are all 1.

Anonymous

Arabic is listed as a macrolanguage.

What about invented languages?

Oh! What is that?

Anonymous

ethnologue.com/about/problem-language-identification

Anonymous

> Macrolanguages were introduced into the standard in order to handle cases in which varieties would be considered distinct languages by the criterion of non-intellgibility as described above, but had already been given a code as a single language by the previously existing ISO 639-2 standard. For instance, Arabic [ara] and Chinese [zho] were already defined in ISO 639-2 on the basis of a writing system and literature shared across many spoken varieties.

Ahh

Anonymous

8:42 AM

ethnologue.com/language/zho - ethnologue.com/language/ara

Anonymous

9:22 AM

I don't think Ethnologue lists invented languages.

9:37 AM

user image

I wonder how often our user interface confuses our users, which in turn makes them try to re-register with the site.

Anonymous

9:52 AM

I don't know, but I feel like I've seen this behavior more on ELL than other SE sites.

Word of the Day: dik dik

(via: blog.stackexchange.com/2015/09/…)

10:07 AM

@snailboat wow, I completely misread that at first.

I don't think Ethnologue lists invented languages

(the verb, invented)

Ahh... contexts and garden path sentences!

10:26 AM

Good morning

Morning!

the authors was studied performance of the ...
do I need "was" ?

No, you don't.

11:02 AM

@DamkerngT. Thank you. is possible to tell me what is the rule? when I need to use and when don't?

It depends on the meaning and the verb.

> Use: We study something.

> Don't use: We are studied something.

@barznjy It's about tenses and voices. I think you can find basic information out there on the Internet.

@DamkerngT. this is about literature review

Do you mean your question was from a literature review?

Yes

Hmm... that's strange. The sentence is more like it's about basic English grammar.

11:08 AM

I have problem with the verb tenses in the literature review section

Oh, then your problem is more about English grammar.

(If you're not sure which tenses you should use.)

not just English grammar. For example, using "was" in the above mentioned sentence

Is literature review a class, and did your class have a question whether was is good in that sentence?

11:28 AM

@barznjy I see that making sense... is that the full sentence?

If it were something like the common factor amongst all the authors was studied performance of their predecessors

@jimsug the sentence start like this
In [15], the authors was studied performance of the ...
[15 is the reference number

Ah, I see... hmm.

might be a typo.

12:16 PM

0

Q: What does "go in on your own" mean in this context?

Context: I am reading Success magazine and the topic is "Take three steps to open yourself to learning." I am trying to figure out what "You can go it on your own mean," in this paragraph. Because you're human, this process [learning new things] will be uncomfortable, and this discomfort i...

meaning-in-context phrase-meaning

I wonder if that's idiomatic.

1:09 PM

It's a misreading/misquoting.

If you Google the phrase will be uncomfortable, and this discomfort is called growth, the only place the phrase go in on your own is found is on ELL - and yet, somehow this question has an upvoted, accepted answer.

1:22 PM

@jimsug It's something that always puzzles me.

1:45 PM

@DamkerngT. Stoney's edited the question, but I suspect the OP is long gone.

I wonder how many of our users are one-shots

A member for 8 months... They may come back to review their questions some time later.

2:02 PM

@vic a quick search reveals a large number of definitions - you may need to ctrl+f to find the phrase, but here's a few different sources: go it alone go it alone go it alone go it alone — jimsug 8 mins ago

I couldn't resist. I wish I could close the comment as dictionary :/

2:28 PM

@StoneyB Yes, there's data going both ways, it's true. But I'll side with H&P and Aarts on this ;) That data of yours doesn't get us very far in explaining why SEE doesn't seem to take the normal range of gerunds in the normal way (i.e. why ones with acc pronouns can't be subject of the matrix verb ....)

@DamkerngT. The number of posts by the number of users who have made that many posts data.stackexchange.com/ell/query/364300/…

Not sure how I managed to get a 0, though, it's a query on Posts.

I guess the 2172 posts data point is StoneyB. :D

I would say so.

I only have him on 2136 posts, though... hmm

Interesting.

It's certainly possible.

2:56 PM

What's up

3:28 PM

@jimsug This tells a little more information

data.stackexchange.com/ell/query/364390/…

Aaah

Okay, let me change the post types...

data.stackexchange.com/ell/query/364300/…

I just wanted a simple plot of how active users are... and how many users make more than one post.

That new query has the correct number of answers for StoneyB, now.

So that's a plus.

It looks almost like a right angle!

3:43 PM

So a ridiculous number of users as one-shots.

I guess it's similar on other stacks too.

4:09 PM

@Araucaria ? You mean because it has to be replaced with a reflexive: I see myself stealing the cat ?

@StoneyB No I mean "*Him stealing the cat was seen".

@Araucaria But the same thing is true of infinitives: *Him steal the cat was seen.

4:33 PM

Indeed, the use with unmarked infinitives is also distinctive of these verbs, and perhaps even odder, since there's no obvious way to understand those infinitives as anything but predicators.

4 hours later…

Anonymous

9:00 PM

@jimsug It's okay. I don't think that, either.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

9:45 PM

BTW it's interesting how I never worry about time in tenses in Persian.

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Sep '1515

Language Overflow

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