Language Overflow - 2015-08-23 (page 1 of 2)

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3:16 AM

@oerkelens ;-) I really think that.

2 hours later…

5:11 AM

"As is sometimes used superfluously to introduce the complements of verbs like consider, deem, and account: They considered it as one of the landmark decisions of the civil rights movement. The measure was deemed as unnecessary. This usage may have arisen by analogy to regard and esteem, where as is standardly used in this way: We regarded her as the best writer among us. But the use of as with verbs like consider is not sufficiently well established to be acceptable in writing." -The American Heritage Book of English Usage — Adil Ali Mar 20 '14 at 12:28

@MaulikV 'I consider him as mad; is grammatically incorrect. It should be 'I consider him to be mad' — Adil Ali Mar 20 '14 at 12:19

^Worth noting

0

Q: Present perfect + definite time : exceptions

Is it ok to use the present perfect with a definite time if it's used with may or could ? Examples : I may have drunk too much yesterday night I could have done it last month but I was too lazy for that. If yes what are the other exceptions ?

present-perfect

> I may have drunk too much yesterday night
I could have done it last month but I was too lazy for that.

The two sentences shouldn't be said that they are in the "present perfect".

But what would it be, then?

Anonymous

6:05 AM

it would be better to talk about the three clauses than the two sentences

Anonymous

Why do you think "present perfect" isn't appropriate in this case?

@snailboat Because I think the term may be misleading.

BTW, the bookstore informed me that I have to wait for Native Listening for 4-6 weeks, and for the CGEL, I have to wait one week for the order confirmation.

1

A: Order of prepositions

Phrases in sentences are not ordered by their type; you don't order prepositional phrases, noun phrases, etc. Instead, you order them by their function within the sentence: subject, verb, object, adverb, etc. Prepositional phrases will normally function as an adverb or an adjective within a sent...

This answer is also interesting.

I don't mind much calling a preposition-headed phrase an adverb.

But this rule "Note that adverbs are not placed between the verb and the object" is perhaps a bit too strong.

It was taken from dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/….

Which in turn was taken from English Grammar Today.

Though normally we wouldn't do that (which I think is in the scope of English according to English Grammar Today),

I think, theoretically, we could say or write something like Take with you this young lad to London.

Anonymous

6:22 AM

@DamkerngT. Ooh, ooh, me! I do! :-)

Aww

:D

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. This young lad isn't an adverb

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Misleading in that some people may misunderstand what the present perfect is?

According to the answer with you is an adverb, this young lad an object, and that would break the rule.

Anonymous

Function as an adverb is incoherent, unfortunately

Anonymous

6:24 AM

Lots of different kinds of adverbs have lots of different ranges of possible functions

Anonymous

Like very, for example. "She was very silly."

@snailboat I think one possible misleading is exactly the OP's question: why we can say a definite time in the past with could have done, for example: "X could have done something on that specific day in the past."

Anonymous

> *She was this young lad silly.

Wait, neither Sander nor I would think this you lad is an adverb.

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

6:26 AM

With you.

Anonymous

That's much better.

Yes!

Anonymous

> *She was with you silly.

Anonymous

With you can't possibly be an adverb. It's not a word.

Anonymous

I can't say whether or not it "functions as an adverb" because this isn't coherent enough to be true or false

Anonymous

6:27 AM

But we can see how it compares functionally to various adverbs if we like.

Anonymous

> *Take very this young lad to London.

That's very weird!

I think it's weird no matter what position very is in that sentence.

(Except for very young)

Anonymous

Adverb is a heterogenous category. Many different types of things are called adverbs, and they all have different ranges of functions.

Anonymous

Very is not like fortunately, which is not like quickly, which is in turn not like so, nor like perhaps, . . .

Anonymous

Many (most?) types of adverbs have multiple possible functions, which is why I say "ranges of functions".

Anonymous

6:36 AM

> Fortunately, no one was hurt.

Anonymous

What is this function?

I think I've seen in another answer by Sander that he divides it roughly into manner-place-time.

According to that system, manner would make the most sense.

Anonymous

That system is unfortunately inadequate.

Anonymous

I just made everything I said about eating healthy food false. I had some ice cream :-)

Anonymous

It had chocolate chips.

Anonymous

6:39 AM

Maybe we could start with adjectives. That's a little simpler.

Anonymous

Of course not all adjectives are alike either, but they're much more similar to one another on the whole.

Anonymous

What does it mean for something to "function like an adjective"?

@snailboat Chocolate is always good. :D

I think for most people, an adjective is something that modifies a noun.

Anonymous

Well, most people are then wrong.

Anonymous

Let's start with that and see.

Anonymous

6:41 AM

I assume you mean premodifies:

Anonymous

> a red apple

Anonymous

Here, red is a modifier.

nods

Anonymous

It is an adjective.

Anonymous

> [so red] an apple

Anonymous

6:42 AM

What is red here? Is it an adjective?

I think so, yes.

Anonymous

It's the head of an adjective phrase in predeterminer function.

Anonymous

It's called "predeterminer" function because it appears before the determiner a(n)

Anonymous

> That apple is red.

Anonymous

Is this an adjective? Let's say it is.

Anonymous

6:43 AM

> That snail is silly.

Anonymous

Now it's predicating, not modifying.

Anonymous

In CGEL's terms, it's an adjective in predicative complement (PC) function; the PC is the complement of is syntactically, but semantically predicates on the subject.

Anonymous

So now we have three functions: predeterminer, "adjective", and predicative complement.

Anonymous

> All the stars visible twinkled in the night sky.

Anonymous

And this is our fourth, postpositive.

Anonymous

6:45 AM

So now we've seen adjectives function four different ways.

Anonymous

Predeterminer, "adjective", predicative complement, postpositive.

Anonymous

Most people, when they say "functions like an adjective", mean that second one.

Anonymous

These people, when they see "chicken soup", say chicken is "functioning like an adjective"

Anonymous

But if you had a conversation like this: "What kind of soup is that?" "This soup is chicken."

Anonymous

They'd probably just say chicken is a noun.

6:47 AM

@snailboat Attributive, that is?

Anonymous

So!

Anonymous

Yes, it would make more sense to give the function a label like "attributive"

Anonymous

As CGEL does

Anonymous

And call the four functions:

Anonymous

Predeterminer, attributive, predicative complement, postpositive

Anonymous

6:48 AM

Now instead of saying "functions like an adjective", you can say "functions attributively"

Anonymous

And people aren't left wondering which adjectival function you're talking about

Anonymous

So if we look at adverbs

Anonymous

Adverbs are considerably more heterogenous than adjectives

Anonymous

"Functions like an adverb" is less coherent than "functions like an adjective", which we've already decided to avoid

Anonymous

Say.

Anonymous

6:52 AM

Why don't you take a look at this draft chapter? lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/grammar/adjuncts

Anonymous

That'll be more educational than me talking about kinds of adjuncts in chat.

Anonymous

But I do have to at least connect that document conceptually to what we were talking about earlier

Anonymous

17 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

I think I've seen in another answer by Sander that he divides it roughly into manner-place-time.

Manner-means-instrument!

Anonymous

If you're trying to classify optional phrases conceptually, this document will give you a place to start.

6:55 AM

Thank you very much!

Anonymous

When you get CGEL, you'll have a source of much better explanations of this stuff. I'm not terribly coherent myself, tonight :-) (Or am I ever?)

Anonymous

I'm here for the moment because I can't seem to sleep. Although I feel fine.

Aww...

Anonymous

So I got back up. And what did I do? Ate ice cream, that's what. :-)

Anonymous

So the odds of me sleeping any time soon are slim!

6:58 AM

Here is something that could make you smile:

Anonymous

I'm not in a bad mood, though.

user image

Anonymous

I'm in a good mood. I just had ice cream, after all :-)

Anonymous

Wow!

This one confirms that it's really Snail White!

user image

Anonymous

6:59 AM

I don't quite understand the connection between beauty products and snails.

Anonymous

Aww! :-)

Me either!

Anonymous

One of my snails is doing a little dance.

Anonymous

I don't understand that, either.

Hah!

Anonymous

7:00 AM

She put her little head up in the air and started making her eyestalks do little spirals while she waved her head around.

I can't imagine a snail dancing!

Anonymous

I think maybe she was looking to see if there was anything there. :-)

Oh! That's interesting!

Anonymous

Around here, most people are more likely to want to tan to make their skin darker.

Anonymous

Culture and skin color are a really complicated topic.

Anonymous

7:06 AM

I can't actually tan. I can go out in the sun, but it doesn't give me a tan.

Anonymous

If I'm in the sun long enough, it gives me a sunburn!

Anonymous

When I was younger, my sister cared a lot about that, and she spent a lot of money on artificial tans.

Anonymous

I've never done that, though. It's not very good for your skin.

Anonymous

Or, depending, for your health in general.

@snailboat I don't know why but I think of you every time I see that ad (and it's like everywhere over here). :-)

Anonymous

7:09 AM

@DamkerngT. Hehe!

Anonymous

Well, I am embarrassingly pale.

Anonymous

I wonder what those skin lightening creams do.

They could have you as the ad model, then! :D

I wonder that myself, too.

Anonymous

I'm whatever the opposite of a model is.

But it's true that almost all women over here want to be whiter than they really are. :-)

Anonymous

7:16 AM

I know "white" skin can mean multiple things.

Anonymous

In Japan, "white" was an idealized concept for skin color over a thousand years ago, before any contact with "white people"

Anonymous

In English we often say "white" in reference to skin color without meaning a very light skin tone . . .

Anonymous

In reference to "race" instead

Anonymous

But the definition of that too has changed a lot over the years

Anonymous

Since I have Irish blood, I wouldn't have been considered "white" a couple hundred years ago. But now just about all speakers would agree I am :-)

7:22 AM

@snailboat Eh? I think it would be strange not to consider Irish people "white". :D

Anonymous

Well, it depended on who you asked.

Anonymous

But when the Irish came to the US, they experienced widespread racism.

Anonymous

Wikipedia sez:

Anonymous

> Various ethnic groups native to Europe were not considered white at some point in U.S. history. Among those not considered white were the Slavs, Greeks, Irish, Italians and other Mediterranean peoples.

Oh, that was weird!

Anonymous

7:33 AM

I don't know. It's confusing.

BTW, I hadn't used my Mac for almost a month before this morning. It's still trying to update itself after a couple hours!

I think my internet connection on Sunday is slow.

Anonymous

Ah

Perhaps it takes everything on Sunday slow and easy. :D

Anonymous

Like a snail!

Anonymous

My snails are relaxing.

Anonymous

7:40 AM

I take it back. They're both very excited for some reason!

Anonymous

Usually if I claim my snails are relaxing without checking, I have a very high chance of being correct :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. There is no one-to-one correspondence between the function of a phrase and a given part of speech. As we saw, "functions like an X" is somewhat confusing.

Anonymous

Still, I'd like to make one point.

Anonymous

Some people say adverb for the part of speech and adverbial for the type of phrase.

Anonymous

If you'd like to use that sort of analysis, I think making some sort of distinction along those lines helps.

7:47 AM

@snailboat Perhaps it's going to rain soon!

Anonymous

Then you can define adverbial as a thing, related to but distinct from an adverb.

Anonymous

Many grammarians / linguists have done just that. Adverbial, for example, is the term used by Quirk et al.

Anonymous

I'm much more comfortable with calling a phrase an adverbial than calling a phrase an adverb.

nods -- In that answer, I think adverbial every time I read adverb. :D

Anonymous

Semantic types of adverbial from Quirk et al 1985 p.479: space (position, direction, distance); time (position, duration, frequency, relationship); process (manner, means, instrument, agentive); respect; contingency (cause, reason, purpose, result, condition, concession); modality (emphasis, approximation, restriction); degree (amplification, diminution, measure)

Anonymous

7:55 AM

There are no firm boundaries between all the types of adjunct (or adverbial), so classifications can draw the lines in lots of different places, and there's no one exhaustive list

Anonymous

So you'll note their list is quite different from H&P's list of types of adjunct

Anonymous

(And of course, the way they define adverbial isn't the same as how H&P define adjunct)

Anonymous

Anyway, I apologize for going so far afield from the points you raised

Anonymous

Do you have an example of a sentence with an adverb after the verb, before the direct object?

I think adjunct is used to make contrast to complement.

Anonymous

8:02 AM

That's how CGEL uses the pair of terms.

@snailboat Ah, my apologies! I'm quite distracted today.

Anonymous

Amusingly, in Martin's 1975 Reference Grammar of Japanese, he analyzes Japanese has having all adjuncts and no complements :-)

@snailboat If with you is counted as an adverb (or adverbial), I think Take with you this young lad to London breaks the rule.

@snailboat Eh?!

Anonymous

Martin's grammar is theoretically very messy and out-of-date, but it's still a very comprehensive book.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, it depends on how you define things like adjunct and complement.

Anonymous

8:04 AM

In Japanese, you can omit pretty much any argument to a verb.

Anonymous

If you include "not omissible" as part of your definition of complement, you might run into problems :-)

Anonymous

CGEL has obligatory complements and optional complements.

@snailboat Will I find the criteria that set complements and adjuncts apart or determine if a phrase is a complement or an adjunct clearly in CGEL?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes! Sorta! I mean, it's not very easy to draw a sharp line between the two sometimes.

Anonymous

But they do their best.

8:07 AM

That's good news!

Anonymous

So in CGEL's analysis, the "complements are not omissible" part of the definition is flipped on its head

Anonymous

Instead, they came up with "adjuncts are omissible"

Anonymous

Complements may be, but they aren't always!

Anonymous

So if it's obligatory, it can't be an adjunct.

Anonymous

> She perused the report.
> *She perused.

Anonymous

8:08 AM

What is "the report"? Complement or adjunct?

Complement!

Anonymous

Yes!

Anonymous

> She read the report.
> She read.

Anonymous

Now it's not so clear. You can't tell with just that one criterion.

Anonymous

We can tell it's omissible, but all that means is that it could be an adjunct.

8:09 AM

nods -- I still think the report is a complement anyway.

Anonymous

Right! Why?

Hmm... that's the problem! I don't know why!

Anonymous

Complements are ~~selected~~ licensed by their heads.

Anonymous

There are selectional requirements on the object of read.

Anonymous

CGEL uses the term "license", which you'll note StoneyB says very often :-)

Anonymous

8:11 AM

> We arrived at the airport.
> We arrived.
> *We arrived to the airport.

Anonymous

Here arrive selects an at-headed PP as a complement.

Anonymous

It can be omitted.

@snailboat License the verb used in language discussion became part of my active vocabulary soon after I joined ELL. :D

Anonymous

But arrive is picky. It doesn't want a to-headed PP. It doesn't like that very much.

Anonymous

Okay, let's use "license". I learned "select" first, but I think we can switch terms without talking about a difference in meaning :-)

8:12 AM

Ah, I remember that I found more than a bunch of arrived to the party in Google Books!

Anonymous

I always liked "select" because I imagine the verb selecting a set of possible phrases out of all possible phrases.

Anonymous

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Anonymous

So now we have two criteria for complements.

Anonymous

① If it's not omissible, it can't be an adjunct.

@snailboat This, this! books.google.com/ngrams/…

Sorry for the interruption! Please continue.

Anonymous

8:16 AM

Interesting!

Anonymous

Well, I can't explain that at the moment. Maybe the selectional requirements are changing over time. They tend to do that!

Anonymous

The changes can be arbitrary and can be slow or fast.

Anonymous

When you look at it without late, the picture is very different:

Anonymous

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Anonymous

No, I don't think I can explain that right now. Is there a question about it on ELL right now?

8:19 AM

Indeed! Maybe late has some side effects of some sort. -- Yes, but I can't recall which one at the moment.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. ② Licensing.

Anonymous

Consider:

Anonymous

> I walk to the park.
> I walk to the park every day.
> I eat hamburgers.
> I eat hamburgers every day.
> I draw pictures.
> I draw pictures every day.
> I sleep.
> I sleep every day.
> I read /red/ a book.
> I read /red/ a book every day.
> I smiled.
> I smiled every day.

Anonymous

None of these verbs is licensing every day.

Anonymous

It's just one of those things that can show up whenever it makes sense!

Anonymous

8:22 AM

So by the two diagnostics we have so far, this would be an adjunct.

Anonymous

Hey, CGEL claims selectional requirements aren't the same thing as licensing.

Oh!

Anonymous

Well then, I guess I'll have to read that :-)

Anonymous

(I've already read it―I apparently don't remember!)

Anonymous

They list eight criteria.

Anonymous

8:25 AM

> Kim enjoyed the concert.

Anonymous

You can tell this example is from CGEL because it has our good old friends Kim and Pat. (Pat is probably at the concert too, waiting to be mentioned.)

Anonymous

> #The cheese enjoyed the cool breeze.

Anonymous

The subject of enjoy must be animate. That's an example of what they call a selectional restriction.

Anonymous

They say: enjoy selects an animate subject.

Anonymous

While for licensing, they use an example of taking an object or not:

Anonymous

8:27 AM

> She mentioned the letter.

Anonymous

> *She alluded the letter.

Anonymous

I guess I was being sloppy by lumping these sorts of things together mentally!

Anonymous

I should really read this whole book cover-to-cover sometime :-)

Anonymous

I'm sure I'd learn a lot.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Are you planning on reading it cover-to-cover?

8:31 AM

@snailboat I hope so.

Anonymous

Maybe I can keep pace and read along :-)

Anonymous

Then we can discuss it and both learn!

Anonymous

It's been one of my goals for a while to get all of the concepts in CGEL down as well as I can. I want to have a good understanding of them so I can take those ideas and see whether they make sense applied to Japanese.

Anonymous

That's one of my big motivations for learning their analysis in the first place :-)

Anonymous

An awful lot of linguists these days working on Japanese use a generative approach.

Anonymous

8:37 AM

And that's sort of what I set out to learn first.

Anonymous

But I really don't like it . . .

Anonymous

Japanese is a really well-studied language, of course, and there are lots of different approaches that have been taken.

@snailboat But CGEL uses the generative approach too, doesn't it?

Anonymous

No.

Anonymous

However, it does borrow some ideas and terminology from generative grammar.

Anonymous

8:40 AM

For example, it talks about "raising" verbs, even though it has no notion of upward movement in a syntax tree.

Anonymous

CGEL has "processes" which informally relate one structure to another, and these resemble the "transformations" of the generative grammar of yesteryear

Anonymous

But as they say themselves, they don't mean to imply that there's a "surface structure" derived from an "underlying structure"

Anonymous

The goal of CGEL is just to describe the English language as best they can

nods

Anonymous

They don't have anything to do with finding a "universal grammar" or with a theory about how language works in the brain

Anonymous

8:46 AM

And one of the things they do is describe the English language as people actually use it

Anonymous

You might find people who say "Here we have a that-clause, but that must be omitted"

Anonymous

The authors of CGEL don't do things like that―they come up with a kind of clause that can't have that inserted

Anonymous

(non-expandable content clause)

Anonymous

And they have a kind where that can optionally be inserted:

Anonymous

> I'll do it [ provided (that) you pay me ].

Anonymous

8:49 AM

This one's an expandable content clause. Why? Because it can be expanded by inserting that.

Anonymous

> 　I'll do it [ provided you pay me ].
> 　I'll do it [ provided that you pay me ].
> 　I'll do it [ if you pay me ].
> ＊I'll do it [ if that you pay me ].

Anonymous

(I used the big star so that they would line up.)

Anonymous

So they'd say provided takes an expandable declarative content clause, if takes a non-expandable declarative content clause (because you can't expand it by inserting that).

Anonymous

@JimReynolds That's an example of one of those asyndetic coordination thingies. I sometimes leave out coordinators. I'm not sure why. What do you think?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. So they're actually going out of their way to work with the words that actually make up the sentence.

Anonymous

8:53 AM

Which I think is neat.

Anonymous

I'm actually very fond of the idea, in general, that optional elements can be inserted rather than ellipted.

Anonymous

"You can optionally mark the clause as subordinate by inserting that."

Anonymous

I like that.

Anonymous

In generative theories, you sort of do the opposite.

Anonymous

You start with a full sentence with all the optional bits, then you take stuff away and do stuff to it.

Anonymous

8:55 AM

> I'd like [for him to do it.]

Anonymous

> I'd like [~~for~~ him to do it.]

Anonymous

> I like to paint and I like to draw and I like to write.

Anonymous

> I like to paint and I like to draw and I like to write.

Anonymous

> I like to paint and ~~I like~~ to draw and ~~I like~~ to write.

Anonymous

> I like to paint and ~~I like to~~ draw and ~~I like to~~ write.

Anonymous

8:56 AM

This is the sort of approach generative folks take.

Anonymous

You could just say:

Anonymous

> [[I like to paint] and [I like to draw] and [I like to write]].
> I [[like to paint] and [like to draw] and [like to write]].
> I like [[to paint] and [to draw] and [to write]].
> I like to [[paint] and [draw] and [write]].

Anonymous

And now you're analyzing it without inventing words that aren't there.

Anonymous

I'm a fan of that.

Anonymous

I don't really have much confidence in myself or my ideas anymore. Not at the moment.

Anonymous

9:01 AM

I'm going to try to spend a lot of time studying this year.

Anonymous

I really want to make sure I have all of these ideas solid.

Anonymous

So I'll be looking forward to going through CGEL :-)

Anonymous

I probably won't write any answers on ELL for a while.

@snailboat Eh? (I want to reorganize my English for a while as well, actually. :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I think that I can come back to ELL with ① a more solid foundation to write answers from (which I think is very important) and ② a better attitude

Anonymous

9:07 AM

(and ③ 500% more circled numbers!)

Anonymous

I'm really not comfortable with the number of interpersonal conflicts I've had on ELL. I'd like to take a break and come back with a fresh, neutral approach that keeps conflicts to a minimum

Anonymous

And taking the time to study so I can write better answers is a good excuse to take a break :-)

@snailboat Very tempting to pin that. :D

Anonymous

I love typing non-ASCII symbols.

Anonymous

☆！

Anonymous

9:12 AM

See? What could be more fun than that?

☆

You're right! ☆☆☆

Anonymous

> ☆ is a symbol representing a star.

Anonymous

Here we have a sentence with a non-linguistic thingy in it.

Anonymous

Sometimes you can find sentences that contain non-linguistic sounds or pictures or events.

Anonymous

For example,

Anonymous

9:14 AM

user image

Anonymous

is a picture of a moth.

Anonymous

↑ This sentence contains a picture in subject position.

Mentally, I read it as 'This' is a picture of a moth.

Anonymous

Yeah, you can do that :-)

Anonymous

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=9959#comment-546815

Anonymous

9:16 AM

> He's all [rolls eyes, sighs]

Anonymous

I think in be all (like) X, the variable X is often non-linguistic in some way

Anonymous

Like, you can say "He's all" and then shrug.

Anonymous

And it seems like the shrug is a non-linguistic complement of, well, something.

Anonymous

Of the be all (like) construction, maybe.

nods -- I think I've seen that often enough in TV shows, and sometimes in movies.

Anonymous

9:21 AM

Someone could probably write a paper about non-linguistic complements.

Anonymous

If there is one already, I don't know how to find it (or what they call them).

Some might already have written some!

Anonymous

Yes! There are an awful lot of papers I haven't read.

Anonymous

The interface I use to search for papers changed today.

Anonymous

I thought I was using the wrong site!

9:23 AM

Is it a Japanese site?

Anonymous

Oh, no, I just mean EBSCO

Anonymous

It's not the only thing I use to search, but it's one tool that lets me read papers that aren't available freely online

Ahh

I found ebsco.com but I wasn't sure if it's the website.

Anonymous

Oh, I don't know

Anonymous

If you have access, it should be through your school or library

9:26 AM

Interesting... I just tried to search my full name in Thai, and this page came up as the first result: github.com/kytulendu/TW.

Its name was still CU Writer when we worked on it back then.

Anonymous

There are a number of different search tools for papers

Anonymous

"CU Writer" is a cute name

Hehe! I guess so. I think reading it as "see-you" makes it sound cute. It was the abbreviation of the university, though.

Anonymous

Oh! My mistake :-)

Anonymous

If you'd like to search for academic papers, I suggest starting with Google Scholar first

Anonymous

9:30 AM

It helps you navigate the maze of papers referring to one another and to find papers, regardless of whether you can access them directly or not

nods -- Though most of the papers I read are from IEEE and JASA.

Anonymous

Then you can browse for what you want to find, and when you can't get something with open access, you can check what else you have access to and see if they have it

Anonymous

Do you have a good library nearby?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. JASA!

No. -- Yes!

Anonymous

9:32 AM

Also let me know when you read Native Listening. I'll go through that again too :-)

Okay! But you have to wait for 4-6 weeks more. :D

Anonymous

I think that in general grammars like those in CGEL don't even attempt to incorporate knowledge from psycholinguistics

Anonymous

But I think that a grammar could

Anonymous

We know a bit about how understanding is assembled incrementally

Anonymous

And about how we can find meaning in parts of sentences

9:35 AM

nods -- If psycholinguistics is really irrelevant, computer could've been able to understand our languages properly by now.

Psycholinguistics

Psycholinguistics or psychology of language is the study of the psychological and neurobiological factors that enable humans to acquire, use, comprehend and produce language. Initial forays into psycholinguistics were largely philosophical or educational schools of thought, due mainly to their location in departments other than applied sciences (e.g., cohesive data on how the human brain functioned). Modern research makes use of biology, neuroscience, cognitive science, linguistics, and information science to study how the brain processes language, and less so the known processes of social sciences...

Hmm... the A-S-O logo is intriguing.

@snailboat Was it you who mentioned "chunk processing" to me?

Anonymous

I think that combinatory categorial grammar is a promising approach that matches the reality of incremental processing a bit more closely

Anonymous

I've probably talked about chunks before

Anonymous

Are you familiar with the magic number seven, plus or minus two?

Anonymous

The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two

"The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two: Some Limits on Our Capacity for Processing Information" is one of the most highly cited papers in psychology. It was published in 1956 by the cognitive psychologist George A. Miller of Princeton University's Department of Psychology in Psychological Review. It is often interpreted to argue that the number of objects an average human can hold in working memory is 7 ± 2. This is frequently referred to as Miller's Law. == Miller's article == In his article, Miller discussed a coincidence between the limits of one-dimensional absolute judgment and...

Oh, yes! But I thought seven was the limit.

Anonymous

9:38 AM

I'm extremely interested in working memory.

See psycholinguistics at work in real life! I just wanted to browse through new questions on ELL, without anything particular in mind, and I picked this one:

0

Q: Save water in Thailand

Because of the recent drought in Thailand, a tv station has launched a campaign to persuade people to use water wisely. The title of this well-meaning effort is "Save The Water". My question is about the use of the definite article, 'The', in the title. Grammatically speaking, do we need the arti...

Anonymous

It sounds like "Save the whales!"

Hehe!

Hmm... I think I like "Save The Water" better.

Depending on which spot. Not sure which one the OP was talking about.

Anonymous

I just mean that, as a slogan in the form "Save the X!", it reminds me of slogans like that one.

I think no one else but ThaiPBS promoted "Save (the) Water" recently.

Anonymous

9:52 AM

@DamkerngT. Yes, quite possibly, approximately! But dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA084754

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. We have a drought here. Look at some of our slogans: save20gallons.org

Thai PBS Save The Water (1/2)

Anonymous

Ours just says "Save water".

Anonymous

Among other, catchier lines like "Brown is the new green".

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Dramatic!

9:55 AM

nods -- Even though I like "Save the Water" better in the context, I think I like "Save Water, Save Life" better without any articles.

@snailboat Indeed!

Save 20 Gallons has an advantage of being specific. :D

0

A: Help parse "I’ve lost the top off my shampoo bottle."

The preposition phrase off my shampoo bottle is actually modifying top. We use off like this to show that something is usually in a specific place (that it isn't in right now). We can show that this is part of a noun phrase by using the noun phrase in different position in another sentence: T...

Anonymous

Araucaria writes good answers

Hmm... I can't make myself read the top off my shampoo bottle as a noun phrase!

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