ELL's Cabin

Damkerng T.

00:58

@Catija If it were in my blog, book, or chblog, I might try something like, "If you can't write the titles of your questions clearly, how much chance will you have on writing tests?" :P

Damkerng T.

02:22

@Araucaria I noticed that you just turned a couple of your answers to ppp...!

Jim Reynolds

02:58

How about: If you can't write clearly, go somewhere to learn English. O.O

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Hah!

Anonymous

16:33

@JimReynolds "Is this sentence grammatically correct?" is perfectly clear.

Anonymous

It's just not very specific.

Anonymous

We'd like folks to write specific question titles, because half the questions on the site could be reduced to "Is this grammatical?"

Anonymous

But it doesn't usually capture the key point the question is really about.

Anonymous

21

Q: Please use specific titles. Don't just ask "Is this grammatically correct?"

Today, I was looking over at the related questions module on a recent question, and it looked like this: It would be nice if we could tell questions apart simply by looking at their titles. But seven out of ten of the related questions above have non-descriptive titles: Is this gra...

discussion

Anonymous

17:21

I saw a link to this meta post:

Anonymous

9

A: Resources for learning English

Dictionaries Bing English-Chinese Online Dictionary - Wildcard sentence search, Examples sorted by category and readability Cambridge Dictionaries Online Collins Dictionary - includes estimates on how commonly a word is used Dictionary.com Joseph Wright, The English Dialect Dictionary, being th...

Anonymous

Maybe we could divide this up so the post shows learner's dictionaries at the top in one section, and then other dictionaries below?

Anonymous

Also, I noticed it's missing my favorite dictionaries . . .

Anonymous

The LDOCE and Macmillan

Anonymous

ldoceonline.com

Anonymous

17:23

macmillandictionary.com

Anonymous

Well, I added those, but I'm still reluctant to point people toward that list in its current state

Catija

18:11

@snailboat It's a wiki, right? I say do what you want and if people don't like it, it can get rolled back. Personally, I think it's a pretty crummy list, too...

Anonymous

@Catija Yeah, the whole resources page isn't very good, so I don't direct people there very often

Anonymous

It needs a lot of work

Anonymous

I've added a few resources here and there

Anonymous

I'm not sure how to really make it into a good page

Catija

That's a general issue that any "resources" page has. They're talking about putting one up on Cooking.SE and it's a struggle to decide if it's worth it since what's a "good" resource is so subjective.

Anonymous

18:25

One reason I like Macmillan is that it has both IPA pronunciation and audio files for both AmE and BrE

Anonymous

A lot of AmE resources use rather inadequate pronunciation respelling systems

Anonymous

It also has some features specifically for learners

Anonymous

The most common 7500 words show up in red.

Anonymous

Indications of frequency help learners prioritize which words they need to know early on, and prioritization is actually really important in learning a language.

Anonymous

There are other dictionaries that have better frequency information, though.

Anonymous

18:30

And other dictionaries have both AmE and BrE pronunciation + audio files, too, like the OALD

Anonymous

I wonder what dictionaries other people would recommend

Catija

18:44

Clearly you've done a lot of research... I've done none. I usually pick the dictionary definitions that most match what I've always understood the word to mean. I was surprised at how few dictionaries had "waltz" meaning "easy"... It seems a common (and not even a new) definition and yet most dictionaries only referred to the musical definition.

0

Q: Can you interpret "Waltz for Venus" differently?

I think you can have two interpretations for this. One being, a dance or music. Two being, accomplish something with little to no effort. Are these two interpretations correct or is it just the former that's correct?

meaning phrases interpretation

I have generally been happy with the Longman you recommended, though. It has more useful sample sentences than some of the dictionaries I've tried.

Anonymous

18:57

@Catija Oh, it's a great idea to look through multiple dictionaries and find the definition that matches most closely (or best expresses the meaning in question).

Anonymous

I tend to use onelook.com as a multi-dictionary search to help with that

Anonymous

I do find, however, that certain dictionaries tend to be more helpful, or tend to be more helpful in a particular way

Anonymous

Like, the OED is often your best bet for historical information about a word.

Catija

@snailboat That is very useful. I shall have to add that to my window of resources.

Anonymous

But even though the OED is a great dictionary, it might not be your best bet for certain other purposes.

Catija

18:58

@snailboat But it's also paywalled, right?

Anonymous

Yes, but

Anonymous

Do you have a library card?

Anonymous

A lot of libraries have free access.

Catija

@snailboat Wow... um. I'm not sure. I had one... but we never go to the library... which is interesting because I used to spend more time in the library than at home... but then the internet became a thing...

Anonymous

Actually, it's worth collecting whatever library cards you can get whenever you move. A lot of libraries have a bunch of free resources available you can access from home simply with your library card number (or card number plus PIN)

Anonymous

19:00

There are a number of libraries around the country which allow anyone in a given state to get a card for free, by the way.

Catija

Hmmm, interesting.

Anonymous

I'm not sure about libraries in Texas.

Catija

@snailboat Yeah, Texas isn't a fan of public services in general.

Anonymous

19:28

Doesn't correctness align with the "idea of what people should mean"? The asker explicitly asks for correctness. A popular mistake (or, as snailboat pointed out in a comment on the question, a dated practice) does not constitute correctness, but merely acceptance. Correctness is absolute, so my pedantry is necessary. — talrnu 1 hour ago

Anonymous

"Correctness is absolute, so my pedantry is necessary."

Anonymous

It seems to me what would be most useful is to describe to learners how the language is actually used, focusing on usage that we think is standard

Anonymous

If a number of educated native speakers do something in published, edited writing, isn't it enough to say that they do so? We don't need to say "And they're wrong!" And if we do say it, then what grounds do we have to do so?

Catija

Just bonk him on the head with the "English is constantly in flux and it's important to be flexible" hammer... that being said, I don't like apostrophes in plurals because I'm a pedant.

Anonymous

@Catija Oh, people can like or dislike whatever they want.

Anonymous

19:35

A lot of people hate the word moist.

Catija

@snailboat Ewwwwie. It's so ucky.

Anonymous

Of course, we don't go saying moist is incorrect or call it non-standard.

Catija

Now I'm thinking about it.

Anonymous

We just say we don't like it. :-)

Anonymous

And it's okay to have opinions like that.

Catija

19:36

Yep. :)

Anonymous

And it's okay to share opinions like that.

Anonymous

But that doesn't make them Absolute Fact. They're just opinions.

Catija

What is your opinion on a SWR getting a response that's a word the person answering made up?

Anonymous

I don't think single word requests work really well with the Stack Exchange model

Anonymous

That said, if the asker is happy, then I guess that sort of answer is fine :-)

Catija

19:37

@snailboat True. They seem very popular over on ELU, though.

Anonymous

And if not, well, they don't have to accept that sort of answer.

Anonymous

@Catija Yeah, I've noticed that.

Anonymous

ELU would be more fun for me if it had more of a focus on grammar.

Catija

@snailboat It'd be a lot more fun to me if it weren't so clique-y.

Anonymous

I don't really use ELU very much, but I do visit sometimes and leave comments or join in chat (especially if I see someone mention Japanese in chat :-)

Anonymous

19:40

I don't recognize most of the names over on ELU.

Anonymous

I can't really identify cliques there.

Catija

It's not so much that there are different cliques, it just seems as if you're either a reg or you don't get any votes.

Anonymous

Oh . . . am I a regular?

Anonymous

I've written 60 posts there.

Anonymous

Overall I found it easier to get votes on ELU than ELL, but I also found that many users on ELU are resistant to modern grammar and prefer inadequate traditional analyses and terminology

Anonymous

19:43

So sometimes posting about grammar there feels a bit like swimming upstream. There's just a lot of resistance

Anonymous

It says it's a site for linguists, but the vast majority of users aren't linguists

Catija

Maybe that's what it is. Or, maybe it's just me. I suppose it's possible my answers are lacking.

Anonymous

Well, I'm sure our answers are very different in other ways than quality

Anonymous

I got a lot of votes just from Hot Network Questions.

Anonymous

I have a question at +87 and an answer at +52, and I don't really feel like either of them are particularly special. They just got a lot of views.

Anonymous

19:48

When a post is promoted, it naturally gets more votes.

Anonymous

Also, none of my highest-rated answers are about grammar.

Anonymous

ELU looks so much classier than ELL.

Anonymous

Although I think it was better before the top bar became black everywhere.

Anonymous

I was just looking through my ELU answers looking for patterns. I didn't really see any―when I answer questions on ELU, it's usually more or less at random.

Anonymous

I don't even see much of a correlation between quality and answer score.

Anonymous

19:54

So I can't really explain it.

Anonymous

I do like this one, though: english.stackexchange.com/questions/133594/…

Anonymous

That's one of my few high-scoring posts that I actually like :-)

Anonymous

I should probably try to improve the quality of my contributions to SE in general. I'm not really satisfied with a lot of my posts, but I post them anyway . . .

Anonymous

I usually just think, "Well, it's just a Q&A site, it's not a big deal" :-)

Catija

They closed it? wow.

Anonymous

19:58

Oh, they close all sorts of stuff on ELU.

Anonymous

That's one of the main things I actually don't really like about the site.

Anonymous

I mean, closing stuff can be good, and I do close vote on ELU.

Anonymous

But I don't really like answering a question and then seeing it get closed.

Anonymous

And I can't predict which questions will get closed on ELU.

Anonymous

On ELL, I can usually make a fair guess.

Anonymous

20:00

On ELU, I see a lot of questions get closed that I think deserve answers.

Anonymous

Sometimes they get closed as duplicates of questions with answers that really aren't very good.

Catija

@snailboat It's really funny, over on Meta.SE, someone was looking for where to ask a question and they were considering ELU and we were telling them... you can ask them but we can't really guess at what's going to happen because they don't seem to follow any set rules.

3

A: Best Site for question about currency symbols?

ELU isn't about writing, it's about the English Language and its use. I'm not saying it's not on topic there, mainly clearing up their subject. There is a Beta "Writing" site, which is why I'm making the distinction. As to Economics, every site is technically for professionals... but that doesn'...

Anonymous

I think that sort of thing should be okay on ELU.

Catija

@snailboat I've seen them close similar stuff, though... that's not a word, it's a symbol... what does it have to do with the English language. Go away.

Anonymous

I think in general English orthography should be on topic.

Anonymous

20:03

Even if you believe, as some linguists do, that the only true language is spoken language, there's no real reason not to include stuff like that on a language site.

Anonymous

It's not like being able to ask about stuff like that hurts anyone.

Catija

@snailboat If the OP of that question hadn't complained about people trying to answer the question, I would have pointed out that the standard abbreviation is "GBP" without the pound symbol at all... I've not actually ever seen the versions they're using.

Anonymous

Yeah, that's fair.

Anonymous

It's also a good example of why that sort of question might work well on a language site.

Catija

I don't understand what's happening here:

0

A: One word for witches and wizards

I would recommend "practitioner". If you want to be specific, you can use the two-word "magical practitioner". someone who regularly does a particular activity Even without "magical", it has a usage within certain literary circles. In the popular novel series The Dresden Files, persons who ...

Anonymous

20:09

Dunno!

Anonymous

It's definitely true that terminology depends on context.

Anonymous

And you can come up with your special way of using terminology if you're coming up with your own fantasy world. Everyone else does it.

Anonymous

This is all madey-uppy stuff, so you are welcome to make up anything you please. I can cite innumerable works of fiction in which both occur in either gender. — tchrist 8 hours ago

Anonymous

Practitioner sounds fine to me.

Anonymous

I do read a lot of urban fantasy :-)

Anonymous

20:11

In the Hollows series, witches are first class (of either gender) and warlocks are second class (of either gender)

Anonymous

I can't remember what Wiccans say.

Anonymous

Witches = good, warlocks = bad?

Catija

Have you read the Dresden Files? They're set in Chicago, present day but he's a magician... and he advertises his services in the phone book.

Anonymous

Yes! I love that series! :-)

Catija

They're noir-esque, hard-boiled detective novels with a magical spin.

Anonymous

20:13

One of the few UF series with a male lead.

Anonymous

Also one of the few series that gets better and better as it goes.

Catija

I re-read them not too long ago. I think there's a new one coming out soon.

@snailboat Yeah, I like how they're less episodic now. I get that he needed to set up a base storyline but now that he has more of an arc, it's nice.

Anonymous

I would actually tell people to skip the first couple books, just because I think it really picks up later on, but he really set up a lot of important things back in book one

Catija

@snailboat Yeah... but part of what makes them good is that he does spend a good chunk of time re-hashing some of the past, so I feel that someone could easily start with book 3 and then go back for 1 and 2 later.

Anonymous

Yeah, I can see doing that

Anonymous

20:17

Personally, I pretty much always read stuff in order.

Anonymous

Even Discworld.

Catija

Well... so readable... re-hashing isn't usually considered "good" writing but it certainly helps your readers out.

@snailboat I'm the same. I haven't actually read all of the Discworld books but when I started reading them, I started at the beginning.

I did read the Xanth novels out of order, though... partially because Anthony doesn't seem to actually write them in any particular order.

Anonymous

I read what Xanth novels there were when I was little, which was actually quite a few, and I did enjoy them, but

Anonymous

Going back as an adult, I honestly can't understand how I liked them

Catija

@snailboat Too many puns?

Anonymous

20:20

I remember grabbing some of my mom's other Piers Anthony books when I was little and liking them, but I don't have them anymore. I remember liking Mute

Catija

I don't remember Mute... I've read most of his, though... you might actually like the Incarnations of Immortality series... it's set sort of modern-ish and then tosses in some magic.

Anonymous

@Catija As an adult, I made it through book one, which was pretty different in tone from most of the series, and made it partway through book two . . . I was surprised at how much misogyny there was that I did not remember

Catija

@snailboat Wow I don't remember that at all... I'll have to check them again. His books don't usually seem really misogynistic to me.

Anonymous

Well, I think the early books are also different in tone from most of the series.

Anonymous

I haven't read most of them since I was little, though.

Anonymous

20:23

When I was young, I tried to read as much SF and fantasy as I could get my hands on

Anonymous

And my mom had a lot of Piers Anthony and deemed Xanth suitable for children

Anonymous

Sometimes I grabbed books from her bookshelf even if she didn't deem them suitable for children :-)

Catija

@snailboat I love how Death always spoke in ALL CAPS.

HA HA HA.

Anonymous

I loved Death in Discworld. I think that series really picked up with Mort

Anonymous

Although I actually liked it from the first book.

Catija

20:26

@snailboat Did you see the BBC live action Going Postal special a few years ago?

Terry Pratchett's Going Postal

Terry Pratchett's Going Postal is a two-part television adaptation of Going Postal by Terry Pratchett, adapted by Richard Kurti and Bev Doyle and produced by The Mob, which was first broadcast on Sky1, and in high definition on Sky1 HD, at the end of May 2010. It is the third in a series of adaptations, following Terry Pratchett's Hogfather and Terry Pratchett's The Colour of Magic. It was announced as part of an investment of at least £10 million into adaptations of novels, including Chris Ryan's Strike Back and Skellig by David Almond. Filming began in May 2009 in Budapest. As is now traditional...

Anonymous

Oh! You know what, I haven't seen that one! I did see their adaptation of Hogfather, and I loved that.

Anonymous

1

Q: Which one is correct? my failing/me failing to...?

Which one of the following sentences of the same meaning are more natural to a native speaker's ear? My poverty is a result of my failing to assert myself. My poverty is a result of me failing to assert myself.

usage

Anonymous

I think this is a duplicate.

Catija

They also apparently did The Colour of Magic and I'm not sure I caught that one.

1

Q: Do you mind me / my

Do the following sentences mean the same? Do you mind if I open the window? Do you mind me opening the window? Do you mind my opening the window? for me they all mean the same, bit #3 is a little less common as far as I've seen so far. Do you agree with me? PS. I am more about th...

grammar meaning

Anonymous

They're both correct, though.

Anonymous

20:28

There's an accusative-genitive alternation there.

Anonymous

Which is more natural, though? Well, . . .

Anonymous

If we table that question for a moment

Anonymous

Based on their latest comment:

Anonymous

Yes "me vs my", "his vs him", and so on before ing form of a verb. Which is natural? Or it depends? — JasonStack 53 secs ago

Anonymous

It sounds like they want to know which is better in general

Anonymous

20:29

But there are rules about when you can use which.

Anonymous

It's not like both of them are always available.

Catija

@snailboat Does that question I posted get the answer correct at all?

Anonymous

Good ol' tunny.

Catija

9

Q: "me [gerund]" or "my [gerund]" at the beginning of sentences?

A.1 The lions reacted to my singing. A.2 The lions reacted to me singing. B.1 My singing alarmed the lions. B.2 Me singing alarmed the lions. As far as I know, both A.1 and A.2 are grammatical: "me" and "my" are interchangeable, although there is a little difference in meaning...

grammaticality sentence-construction

Perhaps this one is better?

Anonymous

Wow, I think we must have a lot of posts on that subject!

Catija

20:31

The answer is from an ELU mod.

Anonymous

I remember other ones :-)

Anonymous

Yeah, though that doesn't make it authoritative.

Catija

2

Q: Will you mind [mine/my/me] interrupting you?

Suppose a person is speaking and if I want to interrupt him, what can I say? 1)Will you mind mine interrupting you? 2)Will you mind me interrupting you? 3)Will you mind my interrupting you? What is the correct construction?

sentence-construction

Anonymous

I might avoid linking to that second question because it's slightly different.

Anonymous

A1 and B1 are ambiguous in form.

Catija

20:33

The first one also links to a better answer on ELU, I think.

Anonymous

Hmm, none of these really show the grammar involved.

Catija

33

Q: When is a gerund supposed to be preceded by a possessive pronoun?

I assume that the following sentences are grammatically correct: He resents your being more popular than he is. Most of the members paid their dues without my asking them. They objected to the youngest girl's being given the command position. What do you think about his buying such...

grammaticality possessive gerund

?

Anonymous

That answer by nohat is good, although there's more to be said

Anonymous

Let me find my notes . . .

Anonymous

The genitive NP has to immediately preceding the verb in -ing form:

Anonymous

20:40

> 1. He resented Kim being promoted to manager.
> 2. He resented Kim's being promoted to manager.
> 3. He resented Kim, after only two years, being promoted to manager.
> 4. *He resented Kim's, after only two years, being promoted to manager.

Anonymous

(adapted from CGEL p.1192)

Anonymous

They give a number of interesting examples

Anonymous

> Contrastive stress on the subject also strongly favours a non-genitive: I've no objection to Kim doing it.

Anonymous

You can tell these examples are from CGEL because they feature Kim and Pat.

Catija

Yes, I'd certainly agree to that, and it's odd with "my", too.

StoneyB

20:42

Hey,guys! Is anybody here knowledgeable about either A) light verbs or B) Persian, Hindi/Urdu or another language which makes extensive use of "compound verbs"?

Anonymous

> 5. He objected to Kim having three tries and Pat ＿＿ only two.
> 6. *He objected to Kim's having three tries and Pat's ＿＿ only two.

Anonymous

I'm only really familiar with light verbs in English and Japanese

Catija

@StoneyB @inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M speaks Persian?

And I have no clue what a "light verb" is.

But I haven't seen him recently. He was in Shadow's Den earlier but he's been out of there for a while, too.

StoneyB

I believe he is/does! I'll ping him . . . I ask because of this question:

Anonymous

> ① I took a nap.
> ② I made a mistake.
> ③ I did a little dance.

Anonymous

20:45

The verbs in these examples don't contribute very much to the meaning. The main meaning comes from the noun phrases they take as complements.

Catija

@snailboat Where did you take your nap? To the zoo?

Anonymous

When you "make" a mistake, you aren't actually creating a mistake the same way you make a sandwich.

Anonymous

The meaning is carried by the noun phrase "a mistake".

StoneyB

1

Q: What this construction is called, "have time", "go to university"

I recently asked about a similar question if go to school is a phrasal verb? the answer was No and pointed to school is adverb and the answerer admitted he is not aware what the noun used in such phrases is called. by this question I want to ask: What such constructions are called? (have time,...

verb adverbs

Anonymous

Most languages have, at a minimum, a verb like do which can function as a light verb.

Anonymous

20:47

In Japanese, the most common light verb is する. @Catija If you say 勉強をする, you're literally saying something like 'do studying' but it's typically translated to 'study'

StoneyB

I've done some poking around and found that "compound verbs" are Light-verb + Non-verb consructions and omnipresent in Persian, and I thought somebody with a good understanding of this could explain to Ahmad how English is different.

Anonymous

The する part is just there because 勉強 is a noun, and you need some kind of verb.

StoneyB

A stock example in English is take a shower, where take has virtually all its semantic content bleached out.

Anonymous

In Japanese, 勉強をする benkyō o suru 'study' is a verb taking a direct object. But you can also incorporate the noun into the verb: 勉強する benkyō-suru, and then the whole thing acts like a single word.

Anonymous

That's called noun incorporation.

StoneyB

20:50

Study-do. Shower-take. Fundraise.

Apparently Persian (is there a difference between Persian and Farsi?) has for some centuries been replacing its verbs with compound verbs.

Catija

@snailboat Obviously my Japanese is really crappy but I didn't think the "を" was necessary? 私わべんきょおする

And that's what I get for typing so slowly... Though it wouldn't turn it into kanji for some reason.

Anonymous

@Catija That would be the unincorporated version.

Anonymous

The incorporated version of the noun+light verb construction is interesting because it's grammatically quite different. Individual noun+*suru* combinations take different ranges of complementation, for example direct objects

Catija

私わ日本語を勉強しました

Anonymous

1. 英語を勉強する　　Eigo=o benkyō-suru　　'study English'

Anonymous

20:54

2. 英語の勉強をする　Eigo=no benkyō=o suru　'study English' (lit. "do studying of English")

Anonymous

See, in #2, marking 英語 Eigo 'English' as a direct object would be quite impossible, because 勉強 benkyō 'studying' is already the direct object.

Anonymous

But in #1, where する is attached directly to the noun, they form a single unit which takes a direct object as a complement.

Anonymous

And it's not する selecting the object; some noun+suru combinations are intransitive.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I'd argue that it's not because we don't know what "this" is. ;-)

Anonymous

So in Japanese, you have the option of using incorporated or unincorporated versions of the noun + light verb construction, but they have different grammar.

Anonymous

20:57

A number of noun + light verb combinations have mutated over time.

StoneyB

Similarly in English: you mistake chalk for cheese, but you make a mistake about chalk and cheese.

Catija

I'm just glad I picked the right one. I almost went with の instead of を and then it would have been bad.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Yay!

Anonymous

Kan-suru → kan-zuru → kan-jiru 'feel'

Anonymous

Everyone learns kanjiru as a single word, and many people aren't aware that it contains suru (historically speaking)

Damkerng T.

20:58

Finally, Macmillan made it to the list!

Catija

@snailboat interesting.

Anonymous

@Catija When you're typing, you type watasi-ha benkyou suru, and it becomes 私はべんきょうする. They reformed Japanese spelling in the 1940s, so now it mostly matches the way it's pronounced, but they left a few key things spelled the old way, so there are just a few bits of kana spelling you have to memorize.

StoneyB

"The function of light verbs is to modulate the event predication of a main predicator in the clause. Different light verbs will do so in different ways and some of the semantic contributions are quite subtle. This is in part because of the flexible interpretation of the underlying lexical semantics. The verbs which allow light verb readings have lexical semantic specifications that are of a very general nature. This allows them to appear in a wide variety of syntactic contexts. . . .

. . . The idea that light verbs and their corresponding main verbs are derived from one and the same underlying representation accounts for the fact that light verbs are always form identical to a main verb counterpart in the language and that they are stable with respect to historical change." Does that jibe with the use of light verbs in Japanese?

Catija

@snailboat Oh, yeah. HA.

It's been five years. There's a couple things I've clearly forgotten.

Anonymous

I don't think there's always a corresponding "heavy" construction.

Catija

21:04

私は勉強しました

Anonymous

I'm trying to stay away from the whole "underlying representation" thingy.

Anonymous

Japanese does have multiple light verbs, although as in English, there's one verb which is felt to add the least semantics of its own / be the most general, and that's suru ('do')

Anonymous

> ① yūshō=o togeru 'get first prize'
> ② yūshō=o hatasu 'get first prize'
> ③ yūshō=o suru　 'get first prize'

Anonymous

Does the choice of verb color the meaning subtly . . . ?

Catija

Snail, you should superping @inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M he's over in the Den right now and doesn't realize that @StoneyB needs him.

Anonymous

21:08

Your regular pings should be coming through

StoneyB

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Help!

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

WHO DARES SUMMON ME?

StoneyB

Moi.

Catija

Finally @inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M That took forever.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

What is it mortals?

StoneyB

21:10

See above . . . are you capable of explaining to Ahmad the very limited use of "compound verbs" in English as compared to Persian?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Catija Everything takes forever on SE mobile.

I only see Japanese above. \blame{@snail}

@StoneyB Dang, he's comparing Persian to English again?

Catija

25 mins ago, by StoneyB

1

Q: What this construction is called, "have time", "go to university"

I recently asked about a similar question if go to school is a phrasal verb? the answer was No and pointed to school is adverb and the answerer admitted he is not aware what the noun used in such phrases is called. by this question I want to ask: What such constructions are called? (have time,...

verb adverbs

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M No, just needs a nudge and someone who knows Persian may be better able to help.

Anonymous

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M The discussion made me think of noun incorporation :-)

StoneyB

Well, I'm very glad he did, because I learned some very interesting stuff out of it.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Stoney, as much I might blame my sleepiness, I have no idea what he's talking about.

Those aren't phrasal verbs in Persian.

Maybe he was looking for verbs that take indirect objects.

Damkerng T.

21:15

@Catija To add to the list:

6

Q: Wow! Nice! I smelled you baking cake!

Which one is grammatical? "Wow! Nice! I smelled you baking cake!" "Wow! Nice! I smelled your baking cake!" Both of them are acceptable, maybe?

grammar present-participle

StoneyB

He's trying to understand these idioms as what Anglo scholars of Persian call "compound verbs" or "complex verbs", as described (for instance) in this. It doesn't work, of course; but explaining the difference seems to call for somebody fluent in both tongues.

@DamkerngT. The second is acceptable only if baking is an active participle modifying cake : a cake which is baking rather than a cake which you are baking. Otherwise you are alluding indelicately to the scent of the cook.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Please read "expressions" for "idioms" in my last.

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB A-ha! That's why TRomano say I would not use "your" with any of those actions. But I'm not sure why. -- Thanks!

StoneyB

Ah, bah! "The *first . . ."

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Does this mean that...

StoneyB

CGEL: "The use of a light verb and noun tends to yield a significant increase in syntactic versatility over that of the associated verb construction. Most importantly, it generally allows for dependents to be added to the noun, allowing a considerably greater range of elaboration by modifiers and determiners."

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

21:25

@StoneyB I'll call him in the chat when I got the time and temperament to think clearly about the subject at hand.

StoneyB

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Thank you. It's a completely muddleheaded and absolutely brilliant question, and deserves a good answer.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

From another quick glance of the question, it seems he's looking for متمم I.e. complement, literally translated to English.

Damkerng T.

Can I conclude that in I smelled you baking cake!, I smelled you, but in I smelled your baking cake! I smelled the cake.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

I think you can.

I'm pretty sure Persian and English complement differ in a lot of ways though.

Anonymous

@StoneyB I did a little dance! I danced... a little?

StoneyB

21:30

@DamkerngT. Yes. And note, please (particularly anybody who subscribes to the absurd notion that postposed adjectivals are invariably or even usually reduced relatives) that we prefer baking to fall after cake.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

In Persian, "to" in "I go to school." is حرف اضافه & "school" is متمم, if that helps.

StoneyB

@snailboat CGEL gives the examples "She gave him an unusually passionate kiss." "We took a well-earned rest." "She made three very astute comments on his suggestion." "He gave a scream."

Damkerng T.

@StoneyB Thank you very much!

Anonymous

The hypothesis that they're "contracted" can be shown to be false by examining phrases that can't be expanded: "a matter concerning the public interest", "an affidavit containing all the basic factual material", "a society consisting of educated people" (Biber et al. 1999 p.631-2). In all three examples, the verbs are stative (in the relevant senses) and resist being rephrased with full relative clauses in the progressive; people would not say "a matter which is concerning the public interest", and even if they did, it would have dynamic meaning the original does not. — snailboat 2 days ago

StoneyB

@snailboat Bingo!. . . Not to mention history (History!), which exhibits postposed adjectives and adjectivals in English all the way back to the beginning.

Damkerng T.

21:34

@snailboat Ah, but it could be contracted from (or altered from) "a matter which concerns the public interest".

StoneyB

@DamkerngT. It could be; but I think Occam's Razor prohibits you from concluding that it is.

Damkerng T.

I guess that the active (or present) participle could always be read as if it's in the progressive aspect, even for native speakers.

nods

StoneyB

It is in the progressive aspect; but that does not entail its being in the progressive construction, which doesn't arise in English until about 1200.

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Sto @Dam @Sna I go zzz. Tomorrow is gonna be a languagy day.

Damkerng T.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Good night! And good luck tomorrow!

StoneyB

21:39

Zzzzweeet dreeeemzzzzz.

Damkerng T.

23:28

1

Q: What's the difference between will do and will be doing?

College officer wrote me: you will be receiving a new letter... Why didn't he write "you will receive"? In addition, what is the difference between "I will wait" and "I'll be waiting"?

grammar tense

Maybe 'You will be receiving ...' is more formal, like very formal.

Just a guess, though.

Ah, wrong room (again)! Happened twice when I wrote from my iPad.

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