ELL's Cabin

Anonymous

07:00

@JimReynolds None of my snails are gonochoristic, but when I was younger I had some water snails that were.

Jim Reynolds

Can you say that on here????

O.O

Anonymous

What would you prefer, dioecious?

Jim Reynolds

Never mind. Let's stick with gonochoristic.

I mean glide.

Catija

Such big words... where do you think we are, ELU?

Jim Reynolds

Cat! Wow. That is a very useful assessment.

Catija

07:03

@snailboat Wow... why is that so pink?

Anonymous

I don't know!

Catija

@JimReynolds Really? I tried to think through it. I hope it helps.

Jim Reynolds

I will give them a copy, if you don't mind, without your name and contact info. <s/>Taiwanese women can be extremely vindictive. </s>

Oh. ...

Anonymous

@Catija When I was little everyone yelled at me for using big words!

Jim Reynolds

There. I marked it with sarcas-markup language.

Catija

07:05

@JimReynolds Sure, that's fine with me. I don't want Johanna to think I didn't think she did as well, there were just more specifics with Barbara's that were easy to pick out.

Jim Reynolds

Now the tricky part, though.

Can you give any numbers?

Catija

@JimReynolds Out of 100? Or in the five separate categories?

Jim Reynolds

And then I'll tell both you and Dam what numbers I gave, AND also what the objective scores were from the reading and listening sections of the same test.

Overall. 0-100.

It's so tough if you think too much!

Unless snailboat is planning to give a number. Do you think you want to, snailboat?

I have enough, now, I think. But it would be interesting to see how much variation / agreement we get.

I am very strongly anti-TOEFL and TOEIC, IELTS, etc. I think the whole enterprise stinks, and is only useful for making people money.

Anonymous

@JimReynolds Um.

Anonymous

Right now I'm kinda feeling too lazy. :-)

Anonymous

07:12

I was just typing in the other room.

Jim Reynolds

(In a strange high-pitched, strained voice): Oh, that's ok . . .

Forget about it, really.

Catija

@snailboat Rightly so. :P Then again, when I was a kid, I thanked a girl in class for calling me an Amazon... but then, she thought Chicago was a state.

Jim Reynolds

Prints out snailboat's avatar for a new dartboard cover.

Catija

Ok, I sent you my scores @JimReynolds I hope you're happy... you've made me quantify something.

Anonymous

:23030121 By the way :-)

Anonymous

07:14

Moderators have the super-secret ability to read all deleted messages.

Jim Reynolds

Yes, I love quantification, and always insist on it. I've made, oh, say a handful of people quantify things.

Damkerng T.

By the by, I can't do that. :D

Anonymous

@JimReynolds Seven!

Catija

@snailboat Maybe he knows that... maybe he's sneaky like that.

Anonymous

@Catija What a twist!

Jim Reynolds

07:16

Ha. I know. And as soon as I deleted that, I wished I hadn't because the "removed" marker appears to indicate something sinister, evil, mean, petty, well, jim-like.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ooh, you used the super rare by the by!

Anonymous

I kind of like by the by.

Jim Reynolds

I don't think I've ever uttered it.

Damkerng T.

I try to get myself ahead of the trend.

Jim Reynolds

Can the four of us start a trend?

Anonymous

07:17

@JimReynolds I haven't either.

Catija

@JimReynolds You know psychology... so you'll understand... I'm the person who almost never answers "always or never" on those "Always/almost always/sometimes/almost never/Never" personality test things.

Anonymous

corpus.byu.edu/coha/?c=coha&q=40680839

Jim Reynolds

A typical Taurus, I don't believe in astrology.

Anonymous

You aren't a Taurus, you're a Leon!

Catija

@JimReynolds Good... I'm a Pisces.

Jim Reynolds

07:17

LOL

Anonymous

I'm a ♌.

Jim Reynolds

The funnest thing: we had four little angel figurine Christmas decorations that held heavenly songbooks in their angelic hands, and spelled out NOEL.

Since my grandfather is Leon, and my father's middle name is also Leon, we always re-arranged them.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat And I, Robot! :-)

Catija

Shouldn't there just have been three of them... N, O, and E?

Anonymous

Noe, there were four!

Jim Reynolds

07:19

LOL

Catija

@snailboat But if there was no-l?

Jim Reynolds

n -1 ?

Anonymous

Ha ha ha

Anonymous

@JimReynolds No 'el'

Jim Reynolds

Oh!!!

Catija !!

Everyone's comedic genius index is rising in my eyes today.

Catija

07:20

@JimReynolds That's very clever of you, though.

Anonymous

Didn't jihoon post this question before? ell.stackexchange.com/questions/62794/…

Jim Reynolds

If indices do rise in eyes.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I opened that page, and I didn't even know what I was looking at.

Catija

@snailboat He posted two nearly identical questions today... I wouldn't put it past him to ask two identical questions on different days.

Anonymous

@JimReynolds I think they can fix that with laser eye surgery these days

Jim Reynolds

07:21

haha

Anonymous

3

Q: I'd like to know how exactly 'infinitive' modifies a noun

I'd like to know how exactly 'infinitive' modifies a noun. I suggest you write out the speech you will be giving at the conference and practice it as many times as possible. When you think you're ready, gather up some people to listen to your speech, so you can have a rehearsal before the ...

infinitive

Jim Reynolds

He has a new pic.

Catija

@JimReynolds It makes him look way too cool to be here... He should be out riding a fancy motorcycle.

ell.stackexchange.com/questions/62763/… and ell.stackexchange.com/questions/62767/…

Jim Reynolds

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M is a moralist.

(I'm not saying if that's good or bad.) O.O

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, wrong parsing!

Anonymous

07:25

You think [people to listen to your speech] shouldn't be bracketed as one constituent?

Damkerng T.

No.

Anonymous

What about in a sentence like:

Damkerng T.

I think it'd be better as "gather up [ some people ] to listen to your speech".

Anonymous

> What we really need are people to listen to your speech.

Anonymous

What does to listen to your speech connect to?

Damkerng T.

07:28

I think it's different.

What about:

Anonymous

Oh!

Damkerng T.

> They are people to listen to your speech.

> Jihoon is a student to learn English.

Anonymous

> "Um, Frank, who are all these people?" "They're people to listen to your speech."

Damkerng T.

> Oh, the people to live here are here!

Jim Reynolds

They'll listen frankly?

Anonymous

07:31

The only possible interpretation I can think of for "a student to learn English" is a student who will, in the future, learn English, but hasn't started yet. Seems marginal at best, though.

Damkerng T.

It's they to listen frankly, Jim!

Catija

Frankly, my dear I don't ... think I can stay up any longer. I'm off to bed.

Anonymous

Rest well, @Catija!

Jim Reynolds

Night!

Damkerng T.

@Catija o/

Anonymous

07:33

Frankly, I don't know what the structure of gather up some people to listen to your speech is.

Damkerng T.

> They get more people to listen to him to talk about the story to be told today.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. My brain turned off halfway through that sentence.

Anonymous

But I figure you can say stuff like:

Damkerng T.

If to-infinitive can be used freely, I think something like that shouldn't be a problem.

Anonymous

> [The people to listen to your speech] are here.

Anonymous

07:34

@DamkerngT. I never said it could be used freely! :-)

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I think this is the most interesting example.

Anonymous

To-infinitival clauses can function as complements and as adjuncts in a bunch of different ways.

Damkerng T.

> A cake to eat is here.

Oh, that's the inverse of:

> Here is a cake to eat.

Anonymous

"A cake to eat is here" can only be locative, I think, while "Here's a cake to eat" can be the speech act that accompanies the act of presenting someone with a cake.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... That looks a bit like an answer by @Araucaria.

Anonymous

07:38

Here's X is kind of special.

Damkerng T.

It also relates to another question by pazzo.

(Something like I bought that plane to get to London.)

(vs. I bought that plane for getting to London.)

I think jihoon's example is different because I read his example like this:

> When you think you're ready, gather up some people to listen to your speech

Hmm... it's not what I think.

It's pretty much like the plane example.

Hmm... they aren't quite the same.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Ah, that one's an adjunct of purpose.

Anonymous

to get to London is the reason for bought that plane

Anonymous

Here's the thing.

Anonymous

If to listen to your speech were an adjunct of purpose, I'd expect the one doing the gathering to be the one doing the listening.

Anonymous

07:47

But that doesn't seem like a very likely interpretation.

Anonymous

I think the people are the ones who are going to do the listening, more than likely.

Damkerng T.

I think I need to make sure that jihoon's example is natural first.

Anonymous

Well, I thought it sounded fine :-)

Anonymous

I can't necessarily help you with working out the grammar, though―I'd have to spend some time doing some reading to see how other people analyze this sort of thing.

Damkerng T.

I can't think of anything much either.

My idea is that it has something to do with gather (or other verbs in that position), though it's not exactly like in the bought the plane example.

Jim Reynolds

07:55

I think that thinking about "to listen" as a purpose is complex here.

In the example, the people would be gathered for a listening purpose.

Anonymous

> There's some people to see you.

Jim Reynolds

The purpose would be to have the people listen.

But not gather them for the purpose to assist or let you listen.

Anonymous

Do you think is here takes the to-infinitival clause as a complement?

Jim Reynolds

Is that the difference with the plane example?

The subject doesn't perform the act of listening.

Damkerng T.

to can be the head of to-infinitive, can work like in order to, can hint something going to happen, besides being a preposition. I'm not sure which sense of to we have here.

Anonymous

07:58

When it's like in order to, it's the infinitive marker in an infinitival clause.

Damkerng T.

> When you're ready, go find some people to see you. -- That doesn't quite work.

Anonymous

(I'm reluctant to call it the head, but I think we can skip that.)

Anonymous

> When you're hungry, go find someone else to feed you. I won't do it anymore. (someone else does the feeding)

Jim Reynolds

When you're ready, go find some people to watch you ...

Damkerng T.

Now it's getting to look more and more like it can be used freely.

Jim Reynolds

08:00

That works, and it is equivalent.

Damkerng T.

> "Jack, I found someone to take care of you."

Anonymous

> Jack, [someone to take care of you] is here.

Anonymous

I'm trying to put it into subject position so it can't be construed as an adjunct of purpose.

Anonymous

> 1. Jack, I found someone to take care of you.　←　I found someone, and that was my way of taking care of you.

Anonymous

> 2. Jack, I found someone to take care of you.　←　I found someone who will take care of you.

Damkerng T.

08:02

I used found so that it doesn't sound too much like "take care" is the purpose of found.

Anonymous

In example one, the speaker is doing the caretaking. In example two, someone is doing the caretaking.

Anonymous

Two different functions of a to-infinitival clause, I think.

Anonymous

I still haven't looked it up. I'm playing my new video game in between chatting instead of researching :-)

Jim Reynolds

O.O

Damkerng T.

> Jack: If she is to take care of me, then it's fine.

Jim Reynolds

08:04

The . . . wanton disregard for our needs!

Anonymous

The . . . wanton disregard for our chatroom ellipsis conventions!

Anonymous

If I can somehow make everyone use my new ellipsis, I'll be so happy.

Jim Reynolds

And now . . . .

I decided to insert spaces intersticially in ellipsi since I found thepunctuationguide.com

I'm emotionally attached to that site, and take everything said there as Gospel.

Anonymous

@JimReynolds I use thin spaces™!

Anonymous

Observe!

Anonymous

08:07

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ← thin non-breaking spaces
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ← normal spaces

Jim Reynolds

Or, if the robot is a Buddhist, as we'd assume, as The Tripitaka.

Oh. I don't know how to make thin spaces.

Do I need a protractor?

Anonymous

My best friend in real life is Thai, and sort of like, nominally Buddhist. Like the way a lot of Americans are nominally Christian but don't actually ever spend time thinking about their religion or going to church or that sort of thing.

Damkerng T.

I know that it's Tripitaka in English, but it still sounds odd to me every time!

Anonymous

So when I learn stuff about Buddhism, I usually have to do it in other ways :-)

Jim Reynolds

I'm not sure if I've ever heard "Tripitaka" before. I just googled "Buddhist sacred text" when I realized that "gospel" was ethnocentric

Damkerng T.

08:16

It's the same word, though in Thai, it's pronounced more like "(phra)-trai-pi-dohk".

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. So like, is that last vowel written? I'm trying to decode พระไตรปิฎก

Damkerng T.

Yes!

พระ-ไตร-ปิ-ฎก "phra-trai-pi-dohk"

I'm not sure how I should transcribe this vowel in "dohk". It rhymes with the letter O.

Anonymous

Wow, that's pretty different from Tripitaka!

Damkerng T.

I consider พระไตรปิฎก one word, BTW.

พระ is added because it's something venerable.

ไตรปิฎก is the same word as Tripitaka in Sanskrit(?), I think.

I think it was translated letter by letter.

ta and ka are more like a consonant than a syllable.

Anonymous

I guessed that พระ wasn't part of the borrowing from Tripitaka, although I couldn't guess what it was.

Anonymous

08:21

@DamkerngT. Oh!

Lucas

Hi guys

Anonymous

I don't know much about Sanskrit.

Anonymous

Hello!

Damkerng T.

So, when it was translated to Thai, it'd become "t+k". That's why it's read "dohk".

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I looked up ฎ and ก but I couldn't figure out the vowel! :-)

Damkerng T.

08:22

@snailboat It's a vowel by default. :-)

Jim Reynolds

Hi @Lucas

Damkerng T.

There are special rules (which always go unconsciously to native speakers) when a syllable is all consonants.

Hi @Lucas!

Anonymous

I guess I'll have to learn the Thai script properly at some point :-)

Damkerng T.

In this case, ฎ + ก reads ดก, with the vowel (unwritten) โ-ะ, i.e. a short O).

The rules are not that difficult, but perhaps they're not as plain as one might want them to be.

Anonymous

Ahh, that's why I was asking if the vowel was written originally :-)

Anonymous

08:26

I couldn't figure out how to pronounce it!

Anonymous

Well . . . I'd pronounce it wrong anyway. But it's still fun trying!

Damkerng T.

If there are two consonants in a syllable, and it's not ended with ร ("r") or ล ("l"), the vowel is always โ-ะ (I think).

Anonymous

I like how the letters all have names.

Damkerng T.

English letters have names too!

@snailboat This clip could be useful (if not discouraging :P):

World's Most Complicated Writing System

►

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Haha! I'm still convinced Japanese is the most complicated . . . :-)

Anonymous

08:30

Oh, I love using this new ellipsis so much . . . I keep using it over and over . . . !

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I'm happy for you! :D

Anonymous

Yes, I'm one of those people who is easily amused . . .

Jim Reynolds

Oops. @Dam Do you remember your encoded numbers for my students?

I wrote them down . . . somewhere.

Damkerng T.

Actually yes.

Jim Reynolds

Sorry, no thin spaces.

Damkerng T.

08:33

90, 78.

Jim Reynolds

Yeah! Thanks.

Damkerng T.

Welcome!

Jim Reynolds

Oh. Now, if I told gave you some additional information . . .

Let me look.

Joanna: Reading 58, Listening 63. [[Jim's ratings: Speaking 57, Writing 85]]

Anonymous

@JimReynolds I don't feel like I can give them a number . . . I don't think I can do that sort of thing

Jim Reynolds

Barbara: Reading 51, Listening 70, [[Jim's ratings: speaking 66, writing 77]]

It's very hard, snailboat.

With the reading and listening, this is a Cambridge standardized test with objective scoring.

Damkerng T.

08:39

Joanna was the one who was quieter, right?

Jim Reynolds

Although I don't put much faith in what these things actually measure, I know they do mess around with them until there is some sort of reliability.

Yes.

And Cat gave similar scores to you.

Damkerng T.

Oh, she's better at writing.

Jim Reynolds

Yes. It's interesting. And they both know each other well, and they both agree completely on that.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Perhaps it was because you emphasized that it was for the B1 level.

Jim Reynolds

Barbara is much more outgoing and has more real-life experience talking to people.

Well, I was influenced, heavily, I'm sure, by the scores in the two objective domains.

It's no simple matter at all.

Damkerng T.

08:41

nods -- the relative scores seem to be in line anyway.

Jim Reynolds

I'm going to tell them what all three of us said, and me and the two of them will do our best to think together about how to use the information.

:-)

I'm sure what Cambridge does is achieve an artificial reliability.

They hire people and they keep people who give somewhat similar numbers more of the time!

Damkerng T.

nods

Interesting!

Jim Reynolds

I think almost all of us are tricked into equating a test score as measuring an ability

Actual assessment of human behavior is, in reality, extremely complex.

But we love reducing things to something we can "understand".

It's irresistible.

Anonymous

If I had to tell them something, it wouldn't be an assessment, I'd just try to encourage them :-)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... language skills and human behavior aren't quite the same thing, I think.

Jim Reynolds

08:44

Absolutely, snailboat.

But they get salary rewards based on their performance on the TOEIC.

Anonymous

I'm sure the assessment is important. I just don't think I can do it.

Anonymous

I did listen.

Damkerng T.

Oh, I think listening/speaking tasks in TOEIC-- oh, wait, that's TOEFL.

Anonymous

I still didn't read your documents on scoring, though.

Jim Reynolds

You're educationally deprived then.

We can only pity you.

Didn't you find my writing illuminating, Dam?

Damkerng T.

08:46

@JimReynolds You mean the guideline?

Jim Reynolds

Yes.

Damkerng T.

I think so!

Jim Reynolds

It may get a Pulitzer.

Damkerng T.

Haha!

I have only a vague idea about TOEIC. TOEIC is the one for business English, right?

Iirc, TOEIC is quite easier than TOEFL.

Or so they say.

Anonymous

I don't really know about any of the English tests.

Jim Reynolds

08:49

As a practical matter, the TOEIC has tended to be more popular for businesses evaluating employees, while TOEFL has been more often used by schools for admissions.

Damkerng T.

nods

Jim Reynolds

One linguist did a study a few decades ago and found that writing was scored in proportion to sentence length, even when the writing made absolutely no sense.

Damkerng T.

LOL

Anonymous

That's too bad. Short sentences are good.

Jim Reynolds

Just a few months ago, there was a huge TOEFL scandal in the UK where test centers were found to be taking money for reporting higher scores for citizenship qualifications.

Anonymous

08:52

Ack!

Damkerng T.

Yikes!

Eh? TOEFL and UK?

Jim Reynolds

And a minority of modern psychologists can really understand and keep in mind the data that finds all personality tests useless.

Damkerng T.

I think TOEFL is only used in the US.

Jim Reynolds

Essentially useless. Personality test or tests of "psychopathology".

It's more accurate just to ask someone!

Tell me what you are like as a person!

Anonymous

I have pet snails.

Anonymous

08:53

Anonymous

Does that tell you enough about my personality?

Jim Reynolds

Well, you've already been psychologically classified.

Anonymous

Oh!

Anonymous

Into what bucket do I fall?

Jim Reynolds

You said it yourself earlier.

Let me see.

Damkerng T.

08:54

being hypnotized by the banana...

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. In my experience, almost every snail loves to eat banana.

Anonymous

At least if it's ripe.

Damkerng T.

@snailboat A-ha! I was talking about myself, though.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Oh! I know . . . :-)

Damkerng T.

I think Minions must have some effects on me. :D

Anonymous

08:55

Minions?

Anonymous

What are Minions?

Anonymous

Tiny capitalized onions?

Damkerng T.

Minions - Banana

►

Anonymous

Oh! Right. I think you must have answered this question before.

Anonymous

I guess they aren't mini-onions after all.

Damkerng T.

08:56

I guess not!

Anonymous

If MAR were here, he would say it was a chemistry thing. You know, anions and cations, minions and maxions.

Damkerng T.

Besides singing the Banana song, these Minions also look like bananas themselves.

Right!

And might try to say that in the reverse, even.

Anonymous

Banana Phone

►

Jim Reynolds

Oh, your DRG:

(Diagnostically related group):

3 hours ago, by snailboat

La la la . . . la la la

Anonymous

That's the song I think of when I hear the phrase "the banana song".

Anonymous

09:00

La la la〜♪

Damkerng T.

@snailboat The two songs are not very far off. Your song is more intelligible, even.

Anonymous

Oh, so many puns

Jim Reynolds

Which banana song has more a-peel?

Are we split?

Damkerng T.

(Trying to think of grandmaphone.)

Anonymous

Gramophone record

A gramophone record (phonograph record in American English) or vinyl record, commonly known as a "record", is an analog sound storage medium in the form of a flat polyvinyl chloride (previously shellac) disc with an inscribed, modulated spiral groove. The groove usually starts near the periphery and ends near the center of the disc. Phonograph records are generally described by their diameter in inches (12", 10", 7"), the rotational speed in rpm at which they are played (16⅔, 33⅓, 45, 78), and their time capacity resulting from a combination of those parameters (LP – long playing 33⅓ rpm, SP –...

Damkerng T.

09:03

Ahh... Gramophone

Anonymous

@snailboat - It would be nice to see your answer to this question posted before the bounty period expired. Or is it "expires"? (0: — CopperKettle 53 secs ago

Anonymous

B-b-but I just wanted to share my intuition as a native speaker. I don't think I can write a good answer!

Anonymous

I mean, I could go look this stuff up.

Anonymous

But I always leave backshift to other folks, like the F.E.s and StoneyBs of the world.

Anonymous

No matter how many times I learn it, that stuff always makes my brain hurt.

Anonymous

09:05

My poor, poor brain . . .

Jim Reynolds

:-)

Damkerng T.

Banana fong!

Jim Reynolds

I would like to know the answer, too. I think both are ok and it's because of the remoteness or hypotheticality; but I can't say much besides that.

Anonymous

Weeeeeelll . . .

Jim Reynolds

I think I'd always say "before I leave."

Anonymous

09:07

To start with, there's some miscommunication going on in the comments.

Anonymous

People are using terminology without defining it (and who can blame them? The comments hardly give you room), and they're assuming very different definitions.

Anonymous

Take a look at this:

Anonymous

So, "It would be nice" is past tense? How would you say that in present tense? — Brian Hitchcock 2 days ago

Jim Reynolds

Yes. I want to read CGEL. There's some idea that modals aren't tensed.

It be nice!

Anonymous

That question only makes sense if you assume a traditional framework, but the comment it's responding to doesn't.

Damkerng T.

09:09

It'll be nice if people will say it'll be nice.

Anonymous

@JimReynolds Not exactly.

Anonymous

CGEL describes a tense contrast between the following pairs: will/would, can/could, shall/should, and for some speakers may/might

Anonymous

None of those tense contrasts is quite like the usual tense contrast you see in lexical verbs, but they are in alternation (they backshift like past tense forms, at least).

Anonymous

CGEL, following Jespersen, uses the traditional preterite label for the past tense form, by the way.

Jim Reynolds

So F.E. essentially answered it?

Anonymous

09:12

Well, the comment is a simplification. I think you can only fit so much in a comment.

Jim Reynolds

Ah. I finally got CGEL, but I've only barely gotten into the middle of the introduction or at least it's still preliminary material.

I like reading it, but I haven't devoted the time to it, yet.

Anonymous

You should read, at a minimum, the first two chapters before looking at the rest of the book.

Jim Reynolds

Right.

Anonymous

After that you can go somewhat out of order.

Anonymous

And use it more as it's intended, as a reference grammar.

Damkerng T.

09:13

@JimReynolds You can try BGEL, Banana GEL instead. :P

Jim Reynolds

O.O

Damkerng T.

BGEL may read itself to you for you!

Anonymous

One of the core concepts in CGEL is labeling forms, and then describing how those forms are used.

Jim Reynolds

Why you . . . !

Damkerng T.

(still have Banana Phone in the background)

Anonymous

09:14

Tense in CGEL is a term for the contrast in form whose main use is locating situations in time.

Jim Reynolds

Yes. I don' t know why I had some prejudice against CGEL before I started reading it.

Anonymous

So they use "tense" for the system of forms ("will" versus "would"), and "time" for the semantics.

Jim Reynolds

I think it's good.

Anonymous

Since they've separated them out that way, it makes sense to say that the past tense forms can have other uses besides just the primary uses.

Jim Reynolds

Yes.

Anonymous

09:15

Since the English mood system has collapsed over the last thousand years and is now completely lost, the other uses of forms like would are catalogued under "Further uses of the past tenses"

Anonymous

Remember, Labels Are Not Definitions; it's called the "past tense" form because its main use is locating situations in past time. But that doesn't mean that's the only thing it's for.

Anonymous

See starting on page 148.

Damkerng T.

H-A-L-P!

Bananaphone 1 Hour

►

Anonymous

wmich.edu/medieval/resources/IOE/inflverb.html ← English used to have a system of mood.

Anonymous

In Modern English, there are no verbs with separate subjunctive or imperative forms. There's only one verb which uses the forms in an irregular manner (be, which uses were with modal meaning unexpectedly when was would be expected, particularly in a few fixed phrases)

Anonymous

09:27

But that one form can't really be said to constitute a system of mood by itself.

Jim Reynolds

If Dam is bananaing you, we can have him removed from the room. Plucked from the bunch, as it were.

Anonymous

@JimReynolds Ban(an)ned?

Jim Reynolds

Lol.

If you won't do it, banana you coconut Palm it off on sultana else.

5

Q: past simple or present in that case

I am going on holidays in two days for two weeks, but before going I would like to see my friend: shall I say It would be nice to see you before I leave. It would be nice to see you before I left. I think the second one is better, as it is not a real situation but a wish.

conditional-constructions backshifting wish

I find shoe's answer convincing, intuitively

The leaving is not remote. What use of the past tense form could apply?

Please have it on my desk before you leave.

If you could have it on my desk before you leave/left.

Anonymous

09:48

Maybe check out page 152

Jim Reynolds

Both in 2 sound fine to me. But is that because of the remoteness or hypotheticality of ... Ok!

I didn't realize your pointing to p 148 earlier was related to this question !

Anonymous

Yes.

Jim Reynolds

What videogame?

Anonymous

善人シボウデス

Jim Reynolds

Banana Plantation IV?

Anonymous

09:57

Anyway, I really don't want to write an answer about backshift.

Anonymous

Quirk et al 1985 has quite a bit on backshifting, too, as I recall.

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