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Huy
3:00 PM
@TedShifrin: Oh. If I write out the definition of $O(2)$, I get $a^2+b^2 = c^2+d^2 = 1$ and $ac+bd = 0$ for any matrix $$\begin{pmatrix} a&b\\c&d \end{pmatrix} \in O(2).$$
 
Well, @Chris'ssis: You are exceptional in many ways.
Don't you know it more concretely than that, @Huy?
 
Huy
@TedShifrin: $a^2+b^2=1$, and $$\begin{pmatrix} a&b\\ -b& a \end{pmatrix}$$ and the same matrix but with $b$s having equal signs and $a$s different ones?
 
OK, and what does $a^2+b^2=1$ remind you of? :D
 
I guess I am not the right person in this discussion. I hardly am any good at math.
 
Huy
Something something Pythagoras unit circle.
 
3:02 PM
@MikeMiller Did you see the modified question of mine?
 
Oh, @Balarka. Seriously, shut up.
 
No.
 
LOL, @Huy. Like $(\cos\theta,\sin\theta)$?
 
Huy
Yeah. :D
So that's why we need two unit circles?
Ah.
 
@MikeMiller Take the solid torus $X$. $A$ be the subspace obtained from taking the open trefoil knot and winding them around the hole of the torus, and pasting it.
 
Huy
3:02 PM
That's why $\mathbb{R}^2 \times S^1$?
 
How to prove that $X$ doesn't retract onto $A$?
@TedShifrin What? I really am not!
 
OK. I don't know how to do that. I was thinking about something like that last night.
 
I actually wrote it down right before you went out of chat.
 
for instant i though i landed in wrong place when i saw this room quiet, now everything got back normal
 
I was up in the mountains, so no reliable internet. I left after you asked about the knot winding twice around.
 
3:04 PM
I constructed it purposefully : $A$ doesn't bound any disk in $X$, neither is there any easy description of $\pi_1(A) \to \pi_1(X)$.
I asked it to prof, and he said he doesn't know how to do it either :D
 
Yes there is. It's an isomorphism.
 
and still more topology
 
I mean, no usefully easy description.
 
I have no idea what that means. It's an easy description. It doesn't tell you anything about retractions.
 
right, that's what I mean.
 
3:05 PM
\o
 
I guess "easy description" was a wrong word.
 
@TedS been thinking about the aces. Can be done with hypergeomtric function, I -think- (haven't worked it out). But there is a nice way with indicators, too
 
stupid sea made me look negro :S
 
I meant to say "it says nothing about $X$ retracting onto $A$"
 
I would intend it to be indicators question if I asked it
 
3:07 PM
Hmm, my ISP must know I'm leaving in a few days. I keep losing it.
@Huy: My comment was that I'm done with you now. :)
@Studentmath: Pedro and I worked it out with some very cool combinatorial formulas I'd never seen. But, there are much better ways.
 
Oh? Such as?
 
@Balarka @MikeM: I was saying earlier it's an ANR type result that's totally unexplicit. See the exercise in Munkres for the $\Bbb R^3$ case.
 
@TedShifrin: What are you referring to?
 
ANR = Absolute Neighborhood Retract?
 
Yes, @Balarka. The retracting solid torus to trefoil knot.
 
3:10 PM
I need a reference to the exercise you're referring to.
 
$\Bbb R^3$ doesn't retract to the trefoil-ed $x$-axis
 
I can't get to any books. It's in the Urysohn Lemma section, I believe, or one of those right near there.
 
common enough topology this s summer, [sigh]
 
Agawa hated algebra, and now he hates topology
 
Hating on Math usually doesn't lead you anywhere good
At least not in Math..
 
3:12 PM
@TedShifrin I guess my proof wasn't really right. A retract might not necessarily extend to a retract of one-pt cptifications.
 
Hello everyone
 
I actually came to ask if anyone here knows a bit of prolog?
I got an interesting question and I can't avoid the possibility of indefinite looping in it
 
I don't know how to solve that exercise anymore.
 
@Studentmath I just learned it exists
 
Well that's also good.
Gah, I gotta go. Enjoy your math-time lads!
 
3:14 PM
@Studentmath: I was going to dig up the formula for you, but in a few weeks :P
 
I mean, it's a triviality that $S^3$ doesn't retract onto any knot. The retraction there is going to be wild in the sense that large points of $\mathbb R^3$ do not map to other large points.
 
@Balarka: I thought hard about a geometric solution and never could find one (although I'm sure plenty of geometric topologists could). But it follows from general nonsense because the open-ended trefoil knot is homeomorphic to $\Bbb R$.
I should be careful saying "general nonsense." It follows from Urysohn Lemma tools.
 
@TedShifrin: The above fact means it's going to be an unreasonable looking map.
 
Wait, there is such a retraction?
 
I agree, @MikeM ... I could never visualize an explicit such map. But I'm sure your adviser can :)
 
3:17 PM
ohh, trefoiled $x$-axis is homeomorphic to $\Bbb R$
facepalm
 
@TedShifrin: My advisor does different sorts of math than you think he does, I think. If my advisor were Bob Edwards, sure.
 
Yuppers.
 
ok, I guess similar thing works with the solid torus, doesn't it?
 
OK, @MikeM, fair enough. Bob would do. Or I would bet my colleague Will Kazez could do it immediately.
That was my point, @Balarka.
But I always assigned that problem when I taught point-set.
 
meh. this was not hard.
another wasted afternoon.
 
3:19 PM
It's the same reason Putnam problems are easier when they're stuck in a section of a textbook as exercises. Then one knows what tool to attack with :P
 
I'm unsure why we iterate the automorphism here: i.imgur.com/y2W2XX1.png?1
 
morning chat
 
Hi pal
 
This is getting annoying, constantly losing internet connectivity :(
hi @Semiclassic
 
Morning @Semiclassical
 
3:25 PM
yeah, i hate when that happens
hi @skill @ted @antonio
 
@user240033: Are you asking why $f(x)=x^q$ is the composition of $g(x)=x^p$ with itself a bunch of times?
 
@ted i think i figured out a better way of asking my question from yesterday re: exterior algebra stuff
 
Nope, give me a sec to clarify and turn on my latex
 
@Semiclassic: I'll be here a little while longer, although with all the packing going on, I'm pretty frazzled. Computer goes into the box soon.
 
gotcha
 
3:27 PM
@TedShifrin I know, that's painful.
 
it amounts (i think) to me not really understanding the relation between the exterior powers of a vector space, and the exterior powers of the dual vector space
 
This was clever, btw. Could never have thought of using Tietze.
 
Yeah, as I said, @Balarka, having an exercise in a section gives a strong hint :P
 
Right.
 
Same thing applies to many of the exercises in my books.
@Semiclassic: Be more specific.
 
3:28 PM
okay
 
The composition part makes since, but why does it follow that the elements $x \in \Omega$ invariant by $x \mapsto x^q$ form a subfield $F_q$? I know that elements fixed by an automorphism make a subfield.
 
OK, so there's a subfield. Are you asking why it has $q$ elements?
 
yes
 
$x^q-x=0$ has how many roots? :)
 
but that's stated afterwards
Is the author just further explaining?
 
3:31 PM
As far as I can tell, the explanation continues after what you posted, @user240033.
He's in the middle of explaining it ...
 
well that clears things up, thanks!
 
Quick question, does anyone know of good resources for learning mathematical induction at a precalc level?
My math curriculum is generally great but I'm not getting this one.
 
You're welcome, @user24003.
 
Did you try reading the wikipage @undo?
 
I think most texts that do mathematical induction treat it at more or less a precalculus level.
 
3:36 PM
I'm in HS, I learned from a few examples off Wikipedia.
 
let me try to state this formally and see if i say it right. suppose I have an $N$-dimensional vector space $V$ with dual $V^*$. by taking antisymmetrized tensor products of $V^*$, i get the exterior powers $\Lambda^0 V,\Lambda^1 V,\cdots \Lambda^N V$
 
I've read the first few bits of it
All the pieces make sense, it's how you combine them that doesn't.
 
Yes, I also recall that the first inductive proof I read was on de Moivre's theorem
 
@Semiclassic, which you can, if you wish, interpret as alternating multilinear maps on $V$.
 
right
 
3:37 PM
Maybe reading that'll help, because it's not too complicated.
 
So en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… would be good?
 
now, $V^*$ is itself a vector space. so i should also be able to consider alternating multilinear maps on $V^*$
 
Another good one to practice, @undo, is the proof that $1+x+\dots+x^n = \dfrac{1-x^{n+1}}{1-x}$.
Yes, @Semiclassic, that's fine, and in finite dimensions $V^{**} \cong V$.
 
right.
 
In infinite dimensions, things break down, of course.
 
Yes @undo
 
Although you're doing Hilbert space, so no problems.
 
(all my questions, within a minute of each other) - I'll tell you guys if I get flowers in the post tomorrow.
 
was about to say, yeah
 
Anyway, hi guys!
 
3:39 PM
@TedShifrin Interesting, thank you!
 
hi @Alec. Sometimes, overly verbose questions are hard to make it through.
 
@TedShifrin they're OLD questions
( ~ 1 year)
 
now, one thing that's first a bit perplexing. my usual (somewhat lame) way of thinking about dual vector spaces is to take the distinction between row and column vectors seriously
 
I have had a few enemies in my time, @Alec. Eventually, the serial downvotes got sorted out (mostly).
 
in that representation, elements of $V$ are column vectors and elements of $V^*$ are row vectors, and the latter acts the former to map vectors to $\mathbb{R}$ (or $\mathbb{C}$, in my case)
 
3:42 PM
Mmm....
I'm watching this thing called "Secret State" - it's a drama, with 7 Game Of Thrones actors in it
 
so, first question: in what sense are elements of $V$ functionals on $V^*$? is it just a matter of thinking about the operations going from left-to-right instead of right-to-left?
 
Hi @TedShifrin @Semiclassical and @AlecTeal
 
Hi pal
 
Hi @skullpatrol
 
3:46 PM
(i imagine the source of my confusion is my insistence on thinking of this in terms of row/column vectors, but i'd prefer to be doing things consistently)
 
GRR, AT&T must know I'm leaving. I've never had this much connectivity problem.
@Semiclassic, I had written Well, just think of linear functionals, @Semiclassic. No coordinates/basis choice that way. ... Before I got bounced.
 
@TedShifrin Tried running a VPN?
 
Almost always works for me, seems like the issue tends to be them messing with packets in transit to save space or whatever.
 
Nothing fancy. They're supposed to disconnect me Monday, @Undo.
 
3:49 PM
Ah. Congrats
 
In a few more hours, I'm packing up the computer and it doesn't really matter.
 
I'll miss you for many days @TedShifrin
 
I doubt it, mr eyeglasses :)
 
i guess the way i'm thinking it is that, if i do insist on coordinate-dependence, then a column (row) vector acting on the right (left) of a row (column) vector is a perfectly sensible linear functional
 
@Semiclassic: In terms of your row/column vectors, it's symmetric to do $\mathbf v^\top\mathbf w$ as a linear map either on $\mathbf v$ or on $\mathbf w$.
Right, you just said what I just said :)
 
3:51 PM
mmkay
okay, let me proceed from there to my next question
given $V$ and $V^*$, i can also form inner and outer products $V^* V, V V^*$
the former is just the dimensionality of whatever $V^*$ is mapping $V$ to, so in the case of $\mathbb{C}$ that's pretty dull
 
Righto.
 
but the latter gives me mappings from $V\to V$
 
Right, $V\otimes V^* \cong \text{Hom}(V,V)$.
 
right
 
Are we heading to $\Lambda^k(V^*)\otimes\Lambda^k(V)$ ?
 
3:56 PM
well, what i'm was heading towards was how that's related to $\Lambda^k(V^*\otimes V)$
and more to the point what's the right way to write out such wedge vectors of outer products
 
Hmm ...
 
notationally, what i have in mind are terms like $(v^i e_i)(v_j e^j)$ (using einstein summation)
 
Let's count dimensions for a minute. When $\dim V = n$, $\Lambda^k(V^*\otimes V)$ has dimension $\binom{n^2}k$. $\Lambda^k(V^*)\otimes \Lambda^k(V)$ has dimension $\left(\binom nk\right)^2$.
 
wait, no. that'd just be $V^* \otimes V$. wrong statement
hmmmm
in my typical case, i have $k=n/2$ with even $n$. though i probably shouldn't specialize just yet
 
But you can contract elements in $\Lambda^k(V^*)\otimes \Lambda^k(V)$ by taking $(w_1^*\wedge \dots \wedge w_k^*)\otimes (v_1\wedge\dots\wedge v_k)$ to something like skewsymmetrizing the multiplications of the evaluations $w_i^*(v_j)$.
 
4:02 PM
hmm.
 
Geometrically, we're doing a $k$-covector on a $k$-vector by thinking of evaluating the $k$-covector on the $k$-plane.
 
hmm. that would take a vector in the $k$-plane to another such vector
ok
 
No, no, we end up with a number the way I'm doing it.
I'm not sure the outer product makes sense. Hmm.
 
not sure i'm following, then. though $k$-covector on a $k$-vector does give a number.
ahh, ok
 
@BalarkaSen i like algebra, i just dont like much abstract algebra, dont generalize
 
4:06 PM
I guess you're trying to do outer product of $V$ and $V^*$ and then take a $k$-vector in that humongous thing.
 
right.
 
What's your definition of algebra, @Agawa?
 
elementary algebra is fine
 
high school algebra is just a baby part of abstract algebra :)
 
in physics terms, i'm trying to form the many-body density matrix of a fermionic system
 
4:07 PM
I like elementary arithmetic
 
algebra is messing with numbers
 
I hate it, mr eyeglasses :P
 
which is a huge matrix in general
 
no, algebra is not messing with numbers; that's arithmetic
I see how to do it with monster matrices, @Semiclassic. I don't see "what it means" conceptually.
 
number theory is arithmetic ?
 
4:08 PM
Well, no, number theory uses the structures of group theory and ring theory. That's not "messing with numbers."
 
anyways @Studentmath if i do hate maths i wouldnt be here
 
@TedShifrin Do you hate Peano arithmetic
 
Hating on Math usually doesn't lead you anywhere good At least not in Math..
 
hating maths can lead you to be athlete for example ?
 
I saw a Picture of an italian guy:
 
4:14 PM
@morphic: I don't hate anything. But I'm not so interested in the mathematical logic structures underlying math.
 
Is he known?
A singer or so?
 
@user159870 Are you a detective
 
4chan?
did you try tineye?
Tineye didn't work on that picture
 
he mustnt be italian, he looks lebanese
 
@Agawa001 except in John Urschel's case
 
4:17 PM
physically, it's about density operators. a density matrix equal to $(v_1^*\wedge v_2^*\cdots)(v_1 \wedge v_2 \cdots)$ should correspond to the system being in a pure state $(v_1^*\wedge v_2^*\cdots)$
taking linear combinations of such outer products gives you a quantum system with well-defined probabilities of being found in a given many-body state
 
@user240033 when you say canadian, it means foreigner
 
So presumably you need to skew-symmetrize products $v_i\otimes w_j^*$, @Semiclassic.
 
that sounds right
the real question, which i'm still not quite grasping, is a claim regarding partial traces of density matrices of a composite system. in math language, i want to assume a splitting $V=A\oplus A^\perp$
and understand what $\Lambda^k V\otimes \Lambda^k V^*$ looks like in this case
which seems pretty painful :/
though i'm only interested in the subset of those wedge vectors which are totally decomposable
which actually reminds me of a much simpler question: how does one usually denote that subset?
 
There is no standard notation for decomposables, of which I'm aware, @Semiclassic
 
drat.
 
4:28 PM
@user159870 I don't think he's famous
 
Well, the tricky part is that even for something like $\Lambda^k(E\oplus F)$, there's not as simple a formula as you'd like.
 
yeah. it's a huge matrix
 
Invited?
Why?
 
@TedShifrin I wanted to ask you something ...
I am reading centralizers and normalizers right now.. Can you tell me where they are used up in higher algebra... ?
 
I'm not thinking matricially here. But you naturally write $\bigoplus \Lambda^i(E)\otimes\Lambda^{k-i}(F)$, but you still haven't totally skew-symmetrized.
 
4:30 PM
@Rememberme what is higher algebra?
 
I was invited here by someone called... ah, Paranoid Panda himself.
What do you want?
 
user136984
What? Why did you invite me here?
 
facepalm
Very funny. leaves
 
lol
 
OK, my packers are just heading out to lunch, so I'd better do the same. I'll be back briefly in a bit, then the computer gets packed.
 
user136984
4:31 PM
Strange...
 
@ParanoidPanda now you're paranoid
 
yeah. i should say, though, that the next step is to take a partial trace over $A^\perp$. that reduces the dimensionality to some extent, though not as much as i'd want
 
user136984
:D
 
I mean rings, modules and Galois stuff @dREaM
 
user136984
Yeah, that was very strange...
 
4:32 PM
@Rememberme funny story
 
bye @ted. if i don't see you later, see you when you get back
 
user136984
@wolfboyft: Please don't contact me again.
 
Funny story ?@dREaM
 
Not interested :) in fact, why did I return here? :@ damn me!
 
@wolfboyft lol noob.
 
4:33 PM
'scuse me?
I can hear you from the other chatroom.
 
user136984
@wolfboyft: Why don't you just leave the room?
 
Coz I have a question.
Please don't contact me again.
Right, let me write it -.-
 
user136984
Well you were the one who initiated this contact...
 
Not.
(I cut the stuff I write to make space for that)
 
user136984
Is your question maths related?
 
4:37 PM
YES! Shush!
 
user136984
I will not "shush" to your command. :P
 
If you had a CPU with a finite number of bits, as much time as you wanted and a special way of making infinitely sized integers (like... 'start integer', byte byte byte... forever until the user decides to stop, then a 'stop integer') could the CPU add them together and finally print the actual integer? And why did that take me so long to write...? :D
add the bytes together.
That aren't Stop or Start.
 
user136984
What?
 
user136984
Why am I even having this conversation...?
 
All that matters is the - Q U E S T I O N - I asked and the rest of the chat room.
So?
:D
 
4:42 PM
@wolfboyft What does that have to do with maths ??
 
I think it has...?
Sorry...
:s
Guess it hasn't.
Ah well!
Bye!
 
Anyhow I'm not an expert but yes, the computer would most likely be able to do those, as long as the infinities match. If not, I don't think so.
 
Hope this helps @Hippalectryon
 
@skillpatrol Thanks ! That's even more intriguing though why would it behave as the derivative of the acceleration :O it's supposed to exist even with a constant acceleration
 
4:47 PM
Why does it say I'm in here?
I'm not... well, I am now...
but...
maybe leaving again. :P
 
@wolfboyft Click leave (upper right)
 
You have been mentioned in Mathematics, a room you're not currently in. What now? Oh... LOL!
xD
Figured it out already. Thanks though!
 
@wolfboyft lol noob.
 
Grrrr...
 
5:44 PM
@Omnomnomnom this example wouldn't work either, since you can choose $t=0$ and let x go to 0, then g(0)=0 but still $lim_{x\to 0}g(x)=1$
 
5:54 PM
@ParanoidPanda - If you don't like what he's saying, you can always set him to ignore
@wolfboyft - Paranoid clearly doesn't appreciate your attention. If you persist in contacting him/her/them, this is likely to lead to you taking a short break.
@dREaM - Please don't provoke matters.
 
user136984
@Richard: I wish to keep an eye on him just in case if he gives away more of my personal information as he did before, so I can't put him on ignore, but I will now ignore him, and just flag up anything he says which gives away my personal information.
 
@TedShifrin: This guy would like a reasonable covering of $U(n)$ by open balls. Maybe you can help.
 
Hi @Richard welcome :-)
 
@skillpatrol - Hi.
@ParanoidPanda - Please do so.
 
@MikeMiller Innuendo or not?
 
6:01 PM
@wolfboyft perhaps your question would be more suited for programming.SE or computer science.SE
 
@AndrewThompson not
 
@MikeMiller Just to clarify, I understand the Tietze argument can be applied to prove that R^3 retracts to the knotted x axis, but is it necessary that a similar argument can be applied to prove that solid torus thingy? I mean, the closed subspace A in that case is homeomorphic to S^1, and Tietze is about maps from space to R.
 
I haven't thought about the argument at all.
 
Well, for R^3 and the knotted x-axis A : $f : A \to \Bbb R$ be a homeomorphism. Extend to $\tilde{f} : X \to \Bbb R$ by Tietze. Compose with $f^{-1}$. The resulting map leaves $A$ fixed, thus is a retract.
 
6:17 PM
OK. I would bet your solid torus has no retract.
 
I am not sure if I should agree.
What makes you so sure? Curious.
OK, I'm prepared to listen.
 
Nope, it doesn't work.
 
I literally don't know of any tool which I could use to approach it. The two things I use for proving things don't retract into things is 1) injection of \pi_1 2) homology split exact sequence. Both are useless here.
 
So one finds some more tools.
 
6:24 PM
oh? What tools do you have in mind?
 
I don't. I didn't say I solved the problem.
 
oh ok.
 
Or, well, I did, but I took it back.
 
@MikeMiller why didn't you?
solve it?
 
@wolfboyft try looking here
 
6:29 PM
does anyone know why c++ doesn't have a biginteger?
 
Is there any ${\rm End}_{\sf Ab}(R) \cong R \ncong \Bbb Z$?
@Balarka?
 
I have no idea what that means.
 
ring of endomorphisms?
 
$\Bbb Z/n\Bbb Z$?
 
Is there any ring such that the endomorphism ring of the underlying abelian group is isomorphic to the ring itself?
 
6:32 PM
yes (and the question asks for an example not \cong Z)
 
yeah, that one works.
 
apart from that, @Balarka?
 
the ring of noobity?
of $\mathbb C$
 
now, now. if you keep excluding each example I give you, then I'll just get disinterested :P
 
@BalarkaSen that's the only one, I purrmise
 
6:35 PM
(yes, that means I don't know of a non-cyclic example such that End_Ab(R) = R, off the top of my head)
 
maybe one can take a direct limit S->End(S)->End(End(S))->...
 
oh, here comes le algebraist.
you can ask @anon.
 
@anon lol, why did you use those nooby arrows all of a sudden?
 
@anon hmm.
 
-> $\mapsto$
 
6:37 PM
 
Is that the mod hammer?
 
Mjolnir slumbers fitfully.
 
7
Q: Rings that are isomorphic to the endomorphism ring of their additive group.

user116457Every ring is isomorphic to a subring of the endomorphism ring of it's underlying group. That's Cayley's theorem for rings. What can we say about rings that are isomorphic to the endomorphism ring of their underlying additive group? (are they always integral domains? ADDED: no, $Z/nZ$ is a cou...

look at the comments, @Balarka, @anon.
 
You like using that word "noob" hmmm?
 
0.o
 
6:38 PM
o.0
 
OK, Q.
But I think @anon's idea works.
 
Can some one help explain how isolate x for this : -5x-6x^2=-20
its mainly the x^2 that is confusing me
 
You can't
 
How come?
 
You can't get x all alone.
 
6:42 PM
complete the square, @Dave
 
Isolate means alone
 
ok ill rephrase.. make x the subject
 
great, one troll wasn't good enough. now we've got two trolls.
sheesh.
 
you're universally known as a troll, @skill. dream is the other guy.
 
6:44 PM
Are you calling me a troll pal?
 
Ahem. Did you not see the big hammer/
 
Nvm @Richard this is between me and him
Please don't take it seriously and overreact
 
@skillpatrol - Play nice.
 
This is a math room not a play pen pal :-)
Ahem.
 
@Richard he does the macho man thing all the time, it's his schtick
 
6:49 PM
@MikeM: Now computerless for 2 weeks, so don't expect much from me!
 
@anon - No, pretending to be a God is my schtick.
 
mods=gods
 
Oh hello @anon
 
hello
 
6:54 PM
@MikeM: The injectivity radius of $U(n) is well known (perhaps $\pi$). One would just have to figure out how many translates are needed to cover. All well-known, I'm sure, just not at the moment by me.
 
@TedShifrin: Well, you'er the guy to tell him.
 
@Richard thank you for your concern :-)
 
@r9m haha you are welcome!
 

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