last day (91 days later) » 

vzn
5:19 PM
ok sure post link here
8
Q: Reorder adjacency matrices of regular graphs so they are the same

JimGiven a matrix A of a strongly $k$ regular graph G(srg($n,k,\lambda,\mu$);$\lambda ,\mu >0;k>3$). The matrix A can be divided into 4 sub matrices based on adjacency of vertex $x \in G$. $A_x$ is the symmetric matrix of the graph $(G-x)$, where $C$ is the symmetric matrix of the graph created by...

 
Jim
please be patient considering my inexperience , i can explain every single line(right or wrong).
 
vzn
ok not downloading for me right now will have to try later
 
Jim
ok no problem take your time.
 
vzn
@Jim so why did you pick this problem to work on?
can you try downloading the paper yourself? does it work for you? it seems to time out for me. another academia paper (the one just cited in cs chat room on citation analysis) did download for me.
 
Jim
i thought I would extract something good out of it
 
vzn
5:34 PM
@Jim there are unlimited (open) problems to work on. how were you introduced to this one? did it show up in a class? reading? where?
 
Jim
@vzn pdfsr.com/check_download/gi-0205-e3.pdf try this one, let me know whether it worked . can you read the doc on Acemic edu?
 
vzn
@Jim the live browse version does not work for me, the pdf download seems to time out, will have to try another computer later, does the pdf download work for you?
how did you find the problem?
 
Jim
yes both .
@vzn Proofs from THE BOOK, by Martin Aigner and Günter M. Ziegler . ofcourse as cse student I was introduced to GI in discrete math class .
 
vzn
@Jim interesting...
 
Jim
last link didnt work ?
 
vzn
5:39 PM
was that an assigned book used in a class or did you pick it up on your own?
 
Jim
own , the pdf version free.
 
vzn
@Jim am behind proxy/ somewhat restrictive firewall here, its somewhat random, will click it later
 
Jim
ok
 
vzn
am looking thru TOC but do not see anything specifically on GI/ regular graphs etc.
 
Jim
do you want me to tell you exactly which line motivated me ? it was in intro of a chapter, one line.
 
vzn
5:42 PM
@Jim did it say anything about GI or regular graphs?
can you cite the (free) pdf version plz
actually it might not be "free"... :|
 
Jim
no , i can mail you if you want , can not remember the link of the book
 
vzn
ok (sigh) use your bookmarks for stuff like that ok? assuming you do want to do research...
did you read it online or in print? ie do you have print copy?
 
Jim
read pdf on desktop(downloaded). but there was only one line saying "graph testing is not efficient"(as much as i can remember), nothing else.
 
vzn
ok, excellent book :)
graph testing = GI or something else? vague...
some "graph testing" is efficient.
 
Jim
yes , i am looking for the exact line at the moment.
like planar, log sapce.
 
vzn
5:48 PM
the "boundary" between efficient/ inefficient graph testing is a very major area of open/ active research. it touches/ crosscuts many fields.
the book is very good for its aim but if you want to delve into something in particular youve got to go to other sources.
 
Jim
i read doc of babai, GI pioneer, undertood most of the result. mckay a little,
 
vzn
@Jim babai has probably written hundreds of pages on GI.
so keep a list of what youve read somewhere.
make some notes about what it said etc.
 
Jim
not that I understood all proofs but clearly understand results.
i do that you can ask , but has no relation to me so far.
 
vzn
@Jim to do research youll have to understand both ;)
@Jim sorry to hear that!
 
Jim
agree.
also interested in group theoretic approach of GI, trying to learn the perquisite.
 
vzn
5:53 PM
McKay writes on MO.
 
Jim
yes!!! you can guess why was mad to migrate.
 
Jim
and ?
 
vzn
@Jim ah! deep stuff. yes a lot of GI is studied wrt group theory. again the (deeply) crosscutting aspect.
think you need a good GI intro book.
 
Jim
problem is my uni do not have abstract algebra course , so LUke is far now.
 
vzn
5:56 PM
"LUke"?
 
Jim
@vzn with due respect, i think I have basics.
 
vzn
@Jim (in some ways) the "basics" are very large & no undergraduate could even come close.
GI is not even taught at undergrad level much.
 
Jim
@vzn Luks, Eugene M. (1982), "Isomorphism of graphs of bounded valence can be tested in polynomial time", Journal of Computer and System Sciences 25: 42–65, doi:10.1016/0022-0000(82)90009-5 used group theory .
 
vzn
what do you mean "far now"?
is it fair to say you want to develop an algorithm for GI that works for regular graphs?
 
Jim
@vzn he used a theorem which is quite sophisticated, if i am not wrong, a theorem which consists 10,000 lines/ pages proof due to thomsons . i have started to study abs alg, so long way to understand luk.
 
vzn
6:02 PM
yes some GI results use "large"/ complex group theoretic proofs from math.
with a problem like GI there are different "lines of attack"; group theory is a key/ major one but not the only one.
 
Jim
@vzn somewhat yes, the main problem is regular graph , you can do linear time if you graph is irregular using weisfeiler-lehman method.
babai is still hope full about W-L method but it 1992 martin furer proved that the approach is not going to give GI in P.
 
vzn
ok. knew regular graphs were the hard case but dont know details. this is fairly detailed math theory....
 
Jim
i think traditional thinking will not give "good results", If I am not too bold to say that. whether my approach works or not , it is sure that it is a novel idea. i am confident it provides a complete solution, I am actually worried about complexity .
 
vzn
nauty handles virtually all graphs "quickly". so "pragmatically" what remains are theoretical questions like GI =? P.
actually have never found a great survey of this field anywhere after dabbling in it for years...
 
Jim
i am not sure about that, regular graph does take time, if I am not wrong CFI pair (Cai-Furer-Immanuel) is quite tough practically.
read mckay? he has written good on practical GI.
 
vzn
6:12 PM
ran across this book maybe along lines of what you want
what mckay ref are you talking about?
there is something funky about se. it has lots of stuff on the "big open problems" in QA but nobody actually "actively working" on any of it so to speak.
 
Jim
Practical graph isomorphism, II
Brendan D. McKay
 
vzn
the hardcore math researchers tend to work alone, not on internet, and not seek collaborators much.
 
Jim
@vzn !!!! agree!!
@vzn thanks for mentioning , now i have to find A free version!!! =D
@vzn but most of them are nice, if you mail them they will reply, the greater the scholar, the more chance to get reply!!!
 
vzn
@Jim do not know too much about specifics of hard cases. but seems one would have to be an expert on them to work in this area. & maybe specialize in attacking one of the hard classes.
 
Jim
sure. not applicable for my doc, anyone will get the approach, dont need much knowledge to get , for verification, yes, need expert.
 
vzn
6:17 PM
have approached another problem SAT in a similar way of creating hard instances & writing code to solve them...
do you want to attack it all theoretically, or (also) empirically? note top researcher McKay is highly applied & very much believes in leveraging the applied side.
 
Jim
@vzn if i am not wrong attacking regular means attacking general (roughly). i am looking for good upper bound, not P.
 
vzn
@Jim attacking regular graphs is a big part of it but afaik, there are many "easy" regular graphs...
 
Jim
@vzn at the moment , I am attacking the general regular GI. If it does not work out, I may look for specific cases .
@vzn not comfortable with boolean way, what happened?
 
vzn
> The fastest proven running time for GI has stood for three decades at e^O(√n log n) (Babai et al., 1983). / —McKay
@Jim it was an excellent exercise...
@Jim you want to find a better upper bound than Babai?
 
Jim
*** Cai-Furer-immerman= CFI ; if possible!
 
vzn
6:25 PM
@Jim there is probably always room for "new ideas" but also they are rather rare and tend to/ typically build on prior research...
 
Jim
... mean you are about to write more?
 
vzn
on what?
 
Jim
you are ending with ... so i thought ou are about to write more.
 
vzn
mckay has a graph on CFI graphs in that ref p21. so maybe you want to specialize in CFI graphs? "..." sometimes means "its a long story...!"
never did write up my SAT "research" much but it was quite a saga years ago.
 
Jim
@vzn I thought my idea was naive and easy to understand. I planned to post 1 more question, after that I could go for the real work. i posted to get feedback, find related ref: and flaws.nothing happened.
 
vzn
6:30 PM
pt is, these problems are "staggeringly hard". they can take years of dedication to make any "dent" at all.
 
Jim
@vzn , no , not at the moment, general case.
 
vzn
@Jim what "real work"? you have gotten feedback, gotten related refs, and nobody has pointed out obvious "flaws"
 
Jim
@vzn yes, no problem , but I need to get some feedback, dept. is not going to help much at the moment(you understand why).
 
vzn
@Jim you got significant feedback. dont overlook/ devalue it.
 
Jim
@vzn nobody has pointed out obvious "flaws" because I could not explain it, nobody has clear idea what i am doing (my responsibility ), ok, I should be more grateful , but I was expecting more.
 
vzn
6:34 PM
@Jim its a start.
again, se is not so good for "open problem" research.
and understandably so.
 
Jim
@vzn understood.
 
vzn
it doesnt fit in with the guidelines.
so very sharp ppl who are interested in open problems hang out on se, but they dont "use it" for that purpose. (& furthermore) they will typically discourage it. with good reason...
 
Jim
@vzn !!
what about your download?
 
vzn
@Jim have to get to it tonite will try it
 
Jim
2nd one is also problematic /
 
vzn
6:38 PM
2nd one?
 
Jim
@vzn pdfsr.com/check_download/gi-0205-e3.pdf gave it earlier. works?
 
vzn
behind firewall/ proxy here like said its random neither works here have to try it later
 
Jim
ok, with your permission I intend to leave now.
 
vzn
lol np nice chatting will write later
 

  last day (91 days later) »