TRPG General Chat

Miniman

6:00 AM

@Magician Except, yanno, any other caster.

Sandwich

d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-invisibility

If you have exactly 10,000gp

You can buy that item and be invulnerable

Buffs don't cause Invisibility to Durate

And as long as you don't personally take aggressive actions you can pump out Natures ally and no one can touch you

Magician

@Nyoze So this is a structured arena type game, with regular fights and leveling up? Are there any other rules you use, like rounds to buff, equipment, etc?

Nyoze

Except... I would need to have crafting feats and a invis-spellcasting class. Which my druid doesn't.

Sandwich

You could use a trait to get access to Use magic device butter

Then just get a wand of Vanish on the cheap

Nyoze

@Magician 1 Prep round. Maybe 2 if spell caster is fighting non-spell claster, with condition that lasting effects last for half duration. No OHKO skills such as assassination. All levels are done at fast progression, and XP/GP is awarded at 100x ACL for a loss, or 1000xACL for a win.

@Sandwich Oh, and no traits. I forgot about that, thanks.

Miniman

6:04 AM

@Nyoze When you say no OHKO, does that include Save-or-Die? Or Save-or-Suck?

Magician

@Nyoze Wait, so if a caster faces non-caster, they get an extra round to buff?.. Also, no "free" hour-long buffs or anything like that?

Nyoze

Auto-kill effects (such as quivering palm or circle of death) deal an amount of nonlethal damage equal to half your current HP instead of auto-killing on a failed save (plus whatever damage they normally deal).

@Magician Yeah. And you enter the battle with no existing buffs, so free hour long ones are no good.

BESW

[squint] These are very important house rules to mention.

Miniman

@Nyoze What about Save-or-Suck? Dominate Person, Flesh to Stone, etc.

Pixie

@BESW Agreed.

Magician

6:06 AM

Yeah, I recommend amending the question with the entire write-up of the arena rules you use.

Sandwich

So you'd have barkskin

Miniman

@BESW Like, holy-crap-super-important-completely-changes-everything-anyone's-said-over-the-l‌ast-hour important.

BESW

@Miniman I think/hope/fervently desire that you mean Flesh to Stone. Thank you, the nightmares will abate eventually.

Nyoze

Oh. Sorry :(

Sandwich

Nah you cast Wall of stone then Stone to flesh

Then you get a WALL OF FLESH

Miniman

6:06 AM

@BESW Fixed :P

Magician

So... Do casters just turn invisible in the one free buff round, and then buff to their heart's content?

Nyoze

Well... Most actually just cast mirror image, then spam attacks...

Sandwich

That's what I'd do

Pixie

But putting a lower level total non-caster against a higher level caster in an arena setting (where I assume the non-caster probably can't get a drop on the caster) and the caster gets an extra round to buff... I think I'm out of ideas. xD

Sandwich

Vanish and then use all remaining spell slots on summon monster spells

Nyoze

6:09 AM

I never said this would be easy lol

Magician

So, casters are, um, not brightest, got it.

Sandwich

Hope you like fighting tripping celestial wolves ;D

BESW

@Miniman This is a game-changer roughly equivalent to the time I found out my GM was using a spell point system that recharged mid-combat off the PC's casting stat.

Pixie

@Magician But hey, this is a good thing for Nyoze. :P

Nyoze

Anyway, brb :)

Magician

6:10 AM

@Pixie It is! There's a glimmer of hope here, somewhere.

Not to be confused with the glimmer of empowered scorching rays.

Sandwich

Yo dawg, we herd you like wolves, so we put more wolf in your invisibility so you can trip while you wolf

Miniman

9 mins ago, by Nyoze

Except... I would need to have crafting feats and a invis-spellcasting class. Which my druid doesn't.

Magician

Honestly, once the caster hits level 7, greater invisibility, flight, pew-pew.

Miniman

@Magician If their houserules mean no magic items if you can't make them yourselves, there is no hope.

Sandwich

Yeah Nyozes casters must be very unskilled at wizards

Magician

6:11 AM

@Miniman Very true. We'll need clarification on that, too.

Well, the answer is simple: don't be a non-caster.

Pixie

@Miniman I think the issue is that only the crafting cost of the Ring of Invisibility is 10k.

The purchase cost is 20k.

Miniman

@Pixie [wipes forehead] Phew!

Magician

Tome of Battle is out, right? I vaguely recall there being abilities to parry spells there...

Miniman

Looking at the edited question, I get the feeling that someone set out to create a system in which damage is the only viable strategy.

Pixie

So I'm guessing -- fervently hoping -- that if you can buy it, it's fine.

Miniman

6:14 AM

@Magician Pathfinder, not 3.5

Sandwich

I'd make a Strix Barbarian to cover the fly bases

Pixie

I was going to say, a preference for human for the bonus feat is mentioned in the question, but if all Paizo material is available, it's entirely dependent on whether your build needs that bonus feat. There are some good races out there for various applications.

Magician

Improved Initiative is a must, I suspect, with focus on Dex a great plus here. You'll only get a round.

Miniman

I'm still slightly flabbergasted by the idea that casters are given an extra round to buff when facing a melee character.

Pixie

@Miniman Yeah. Just... yeah.

Sandwich

6:19 AM

Get some points in Use magic device and get a skill item to buff it so you could get off a wand of vanish

Magician

@Miniman Same. But durations are halved! Because balance.

Miniman

Ah, just found his previous question. "A houserule states that no one item can cost more then 50% of WPL guidelines."

Yowch.

Sandwich

Jeez ouch

Pixie

@Miniman [long, deep sigh]

Sandwich

So invest ranks in UMD, get an item that buffs UMD

And a Wand of Vanish ( or invisibility if you have enough money left )

Magician

6:22 AM

So. How much is a Stone of Silence?

BESW

I got a rock that don't talk right here.

Magician

Simple item, activate for a few rounds of silence. Halves the casters' capabilities.

Nyoze

Crafting is if you can do it yourself, time doesn't really matter and you can just outright purchase it for craft price. If you don't have the feats or spells to do it yourself, you have to pay market price.

Magician

It'd most likely have to be a custom item. Does PF/your group handle those?

Miniman

@Nyoze Ok, cool. You should probably put it in the question, though.

Nyoze

6:25 AM

Yeah, will update that in a sec.

Miniman

Along with: "A houserule states that no one item can cost more then 50% of WPL guidelines." from your presvious question, unless that's changed.

Nyoze

I can't find the exact ruling at the moment, let me double check creation guidelines and I'll update it with everything I can find.

Sandwich

If you really want to mess with that scorching ray caster find a way to give yourself concealment

If you can manage any significant level of concealment and have a pretty high dex he's going to have dickall chance to land those rays

Maybe Wand of Displacement

Miniman

Wand of Entropic Shield would do

No need to get fancy

Nyoze

Yeah... I popped obscuring mist in my latest game, which worked awesomely as a druid, but I'd need to rebuild my entire druid to focus on a dex build, and I think I just want a new non-caster just to screw with casters.

Sandwich

6:29 AM

Yeah that works

Good call MM

Miniman

@Sandwich Well, against Ray-man, anyway. More generally Displacement is a much better choice

Sandwich

Well if he fires two rays around you have a 40% chance to avoid half his damage that round

With displacement you're really likely to not be hit by half of them

Or if you're really lucky he wont hit with either

Combine that with Mirror image and he has...

80% chance to hit a double 50% of the time

Nyoze

Wand of displacement, 11,250 gp. Wand of MM, 750gp. I'd stick with MM for now I think...

Miniman

Awkward if it occurs to him to dispel, though

Nyoze

Yeah... That would be amusing.

I wonder...

Damn, wand of dispel would be 11,250 as well...

Sandwich

6:33 AM

Dispel his fly and he can still just use a swift to use feather fall

If he has it prepared anyway

If he doesn't he's going to be taking a dirtnap

Also he'd be pretty dumb not to save a slot for feather fall

Magician

How do you handle consumables, do they, um, renew, or do you pay for them each time, running out of money?

Miniman

@Magician Ooh, good point

Pixie

Maybe Cloak of Resistance +1 or +2 if your gold isn't being spent elsewhere.

Sandwich

If you do manage to get an effect that gives you invisibility it isnt something that he can counter right off the bat

Pixie

Yeah, that was my thought as well. Fight enough and your consumables will run out...

Sandwich

6:36 AM

Because if you're invisible he cant locate you without Using a round casting detect magic

Nyoze

Consumables run out. Have to purchase new ones afterwards.

Sandwich

You'd have enough money if you're getting 1000 x acl per win in gp and xp though

Pixie

Well, winning is the idea, but what if he doesn't? I wouldn't focus too heavily on consumables, especially expensive ones. 750g isn't too bad though.

Magician

Have loadstone. Pre-cast remove curse on it days ago, so it doesn't haunt you. At the start of fight, cast silence on loadstone, then slip it into opponent's pocket. Bingo.

Sandwich

Yeah that would probably work

He probably wouldnt prepare his spells with Silent spell if he was already using Empower spell

That'd burn his 5th level slots

Magician

6:39 AM

It really doesn't sound like those casters would bother with Silent Spell at all.

trogdor

silent spell , not enough pew pew for them

seems like

Sandwich

If they really wanted to smoke someone in an arena the Shocking grasp Magus is pretty high on the damages

Nyoze

Looks like they changed the 50% WBL rule since I made my druid... Other house rules edited in.

Magician

...MM is banned.

Sandwich

Magic Missile is BANNED? Hahahaahha

Wow that's laughable right there

Magic missile doesn't have enough damage to justify banning it

Nyoze

6:44 AM

Correction.

They haven't banned it, just made it so it uses an attack roll.

But that's an exception to the rule.

Sandwich

Then its just a worthless spell then

Pixie

So taken the one real plus from it? :P

Sandwich

Two plusses

It hits ethereals and it doesnt require an attack roll

Miniman

Three plusses cos force damage is the best kind of damage

Pixie

True, true. And if we're being fair, it's a low level spell (though at 5+ quickly becoming less relevant even then) and not bad range. But still.

Sandwich

6:46 AM

I thought Sonic damage was the best kind of Damage

BESW

I'm fond of nonlethal sonic damage, myself. Doesn't hurt the loot.

user61230

What if the loot is made of glass?

Pixie

I had fun with Ear-Piercing Scream with my witch. Because she was catfolk, so [panther screams]

BESW

That's where the "nonlethal" comes in.

Miniman

@Sandwich Er, no? Unless you're fighting a creature with force immunity. (The only one I've ever heard of is the Force Dragon. By the time fighting one of these is a possibility damage is off the table as a viable strategy.)

Sandwich

6:48 AM

Grreeeeater telepoooort

Pixie

I must kick myself off, but I'll be interested to see any answers to the question. A fine pickle, indeed.

Miniman

@Pixie Cya!

I have to admit I'm extremely curious to see answers too.

Sandwich

Yeah I am as well

I can provide a lot of conjecture as to how you can outplay someone using PF mechanics

But not if the other people in that game thing that boosting their CL is going to give them more scorching rays

trogdor

it almost sounds like what happened when I was in middle/high school

doppelgreener

@Pixie Goodnight!

Sandwich

6:56 AM

Whats that @Trogdor?

trogdor

there was one kid in particular who couldn't stand losing, every game was just inundated with immediate rule changes in his favor

it sounds like a lot of house rules and mistakes have been made in the favor of this higher level caster character and such

not to say it is automatically specifically to give him an advantage, but from what little I understand, and what people in this discussion have said, PF already has plenty of advantage going to casters to begin with

I have a very skewed view of this arena PF game going on, but from what it looks like, I would not play with this group due partly to the system they use, but GREATLY because of all the freaking red tape they seem to have spread all over it

again, this is coming from limited knowledge

doppelgreener

@Nyoze oh, right, i see now. [deletes comment about this]

trogdor

however, sticking people in fights with others who out level them to a significant degree is enough by itself to turn me off

letting alone the issues of several house rules and pitting overpowered classes against any other classes

Sandwich

Yeah at most you'd stick tier 1 classes against tier 1 classes and tier 4 classes against tier 4 classes

trogdor

the closest system I know is 3.5, and if you had to fight a wizard in 3.5 as anything other than another equivalent caster that was bad enough to say you were likely to lose

give that guy the ability to ignore or fudge certain rules and give him at least 4 levels over the other guy and it's just a joke now

but anyway, I just don't play 3.5 anymore partly because of the HUGE class disparity in terms of power

doppelgreener

7:08 AM

@trogdor yes, pathfinder is very much skewed in favour of casters can do anything

and against mundane classes

trogdor

that just seems like a waste really

doppelgreener

@Nyoze actually, are you aware of that? Pathfinder fundamentally empowers spellcasters while nerfing martial characters compared to D&D.

trogdor

it could have been a much better game (in my own personal opinion) if it had thrown out one of 3.5's most glaring faults.

Sandwich

D&D has always been skewed to support casters though

trogdor

my problem is that it is skewed at all

doppelgreener

7:10 AM

@Sandwich Except for D&D 4e. But Pathfinder does it even moreso.

Sandwich

Well it makes sense though Trogdor

You cant solve every problem with a sword

But you can solve every problem with magic

doppelgreener

Yes

So, of course, it's absolutely fine from a lore perspective, that's all well and good

trogdor

yeah,

doppelgreener

and it also makes total sense when you appeal that sure, the magic users should be more powerful than everyone else

trogdor

the issue is that I might want to play a fighter

Sandwich

7:11 AM

I'd argue that in 3.5 casters were even more powerful though

trogdor

but if I do, I will do almost everything worse than the Wizard in the party

Sandwich

3.5 has classes that are borderline stupid good

Like that one that emulates the Prismatic wall spell

I forget what its called off hand

trogdor

possibly even some of the things I should really be better at, at least in a gameplay perspective

it's a game, not a movie

doppelgreener

But from the perspective where you have a game where four or five people are trying to work together, it screws with things when various party members start becoming more and more useless the further the game progresses, and when some of them start unlocking world-changing powers. Some players get marginalised, create way more workload for the GM trying to keep them relevant, etc etc.

Sandwich

But they can create walls as an immediate action or something stupid like that

trogdor

7:12 AM

I am in it to have fun and do things that make a significant difference in the party

Sandwich

Well its a wizards job to make the melees feel powerful though Doppel

Nyoze

@doppelgreener Yeah, that's what I keep seeing. I want to break the mold with a melee character, but I want to have a decent chance against the casters at the same time. I'm not worried about taking on the jugernauts at like, level 9 or whatever. When I get there myself, that's something to look for. For now, I just want to have decent TAC against any level 5 people trying to juke me with Scorching Rays, and be able to hold my own against an average melee class as well.

doppelgreener

All of that is fine if that's what you want, if you want your dude to get more powerful than everyone else as the game goes on, if you want a party where the Fighter is going to be relatively useless unless the DM panders to them directly.

trogdor

not to be constantly overshadowed because someone picked a "better" class

Sandwich

Like hasting and enlarging the BDF to make him do damage

doppelgreener

7:13 AM

Oh, yeah, sure, maybe

Sandwich

And generally controlling the flow of combat

doppelgreener

Unless the caster guy doesn't want to play the support guy

Nyoze

@doppelgreener @trogdor @Sandwich In a party based system, I'm always of the feeling that casters are better support then nukes... But I play a support caster, so my opinion is worth 0 lol

doppelgreener

Nothing in the Wizard job description is "make the martial guys more powerful", they're equipped with more than enough to just win combat on their own.

Sandwich

*Everything to win combat on their own

FTFY

doppelgreener

7:14 AM

That would also be a reasonable statement.

@Nyoze They are better both and better whatever thing you pick.

Nyoze

@doppelgreener I updated the bit about the feats. There was a table afterwards showing what RP cost what feats, which I don't think would be viable as any build would need at least 1 oe 2 feats to be viable, I would imagine.

doppelgreener

Clerics out-fight fighters at their own game.

Sandwich

Yeah they can cast and wear full plate, thats pretty much GG for fighters

Nyoze

@doppelgreener Bless + Favoured Weapon Prof... Cleric is just a matter of finding the deity with the high crit weapon you want.

doppelgreener

@Nyoze Maybe borrow Lord_Gareth's samurai spellbreaker build...

[digs around logs]

Lord Gareth's Tale of the Martini Wizard

Mar 11 '14 at 12:32, 20 minutes total – 45 messages, 6 users, 15 stars

Bookmarked Sep 22 '14 at 6:20 by doppelgreener

our friendly local Lord Gareth makes a wizard to wipe out his entire playgroup to demonstrate what optimisation means.

Sandwich

7:17 AM

Bless + Shield of faith + Full plate + That one level 1 spell they get that gives them concealment

Oh heck I've read that before

That uses the class I was talking about earlier

doppelgreener

then at the very end (it's a good tale) they mistakenly conclude that a high tier = you win, so he makes a fear lockdown samurai to destroy them again to show that no, optimisation = you win.

he didn't describe the build, but have a story.

So yeah, casters being more powerful is fine lore-wise.

Magician

Except any kind of lockdown's been nerfed at the arena.

Sandwich

He used three levels of experience on Craft Contingent spell and wiped the floor with a full group of level 20s using.. I think Abjurant champion or something like that

doppelgreener

I just don't want to play in a game where I either maginalise my party or get marginalised myself. (Unless we work around this system problem by very carefully staying on the same tier. That requires more system mastery than I know, so I can't do that.)

Sandwich

Oh no it was Initiate of the Sevenfold veil

That was it

I think spellcasters would be more balanced if they had half as many spells per day

Nyoze

7:20 AM

@doppelgreener That was awesome...

doppelgreener

@Nyoze it is a fantastic tale

Nyoze

@doppelgreener And the exact kind of character I don't want to play... I don't want to just click play and watch the novas explode, I'd much rather actually get in and do something myself.

Sandwich

The way that most guys I know came up with is to give the people who play lower tier classes higher points during character creation

Wizards, Clerics and Druids start at like 16 points or something low like that, and it goes up to like 30 points for Tier 5 classes I think?

Nyoze

@Sandwich What tier would you put a monk on?

doppelgreener

@Sandwich that was kinda AD&D's thing, but they only need one or two spells to just push the win button.

Magician

7:22 AM

@Nyoze Oh no, not the M word.

Sandwich

Pathfinder or 3.5 Nyoze?

doppelgreener

it's hard to balance classes that are based around "deal more damage" against classes that are based around "end the encounter immediately and render all opponents helpless for long enough for you to patiently bash their skulls in with a rock."

Nyoze

Pathfinder still.

I only ask because everything I hear says that Monks are at like, bottom of the bottom tier wise. This arena I'm looking at, the top ranked player is actually playing a monk...

Sandwich

Pathfinder would be a Mid Tier 5, as opposed to 3.5's Bottom Tier 5

Zen Archer Monk would probably be Low to mid Tier 4

doppelgreener

35

A: What are "tiers", and what tier is each class?

What are tiers? Tiers are a ranking of how "powerful" the various 3.5 base classes, with low numbered tiers being considered more capable than high numbered tiers. It's important to remember that certain caveats apply to the rankings: Tiers assume similar levels of optimization. Someone playin...

Sandwich

7:24 AM

Pathfinder shifts it up a bit though

doppelgreener

@Nyoze someone's not pulling their weight then. (but that's obvious, since the caster opponent is focusing on a blaster build, which is the slowest way to defeat anyone.)

Sandwich

Let me find the list for PF

Nyoze

@Sandwich Yeah, there's a lot of archers... And watching them fight usually ends up with them shooting at each other until someone gets to melee range and obliterates them, or in the case of 2 archers, till someone runs out of ammo.

Sandwich

minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11990.0

BESW

...Google has failed me again. No cosplay of Lord Baron from Steam Wars.

Sandwich

7:26 AM

Yeah Monk kind of has always gotten the short end of the stick

Pathfinder tried real hard, and monk is kind of better than in 3.5, but still has many problems

At least in 3.5 you had the prior content to build up other stuff though

3.5 had ridiculous amounts of books

Pathfinder is still in its infancy by comparison

Nyoze

Yeah... 3.5 has insane amounts of books everywhere.

Magician

@Sandwich First published in 2009, so 6+ years. As opposed to 3.5 which came out in 2003 and lasted until 2008, so 6 years.

doppelgreener

@Nyoze yes.

17

A: How do you tell if a D&D book is 3.0 or 3.5?

Use this handy list of... Dungeons and Dragons, 3rd Edition and Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 Products from Wizards of the Coast in Order of Publication The following presented in year/month order for easier sorting. Products released in the same month are presented alphabetically. Parenthetical ref...

see this answer in particular and enjoy your scrolling.

Sandwich

3.5 Is still probably the most popular edition of D&D Though

doppelgreener

that is a statistic we cannot measure

except via the magical technique of confirmation bias

Sandwich

7:31 AM

We could measure the amount of 3.5 games on Rpol vs. the number of 5e games

Nyoze

Do you want to count them all? Cause I sure don't.

BESW

[eyeroll] Not this again.

Nyoze

Dopple and tag editing lol.

BESW

RPGs are inherently difficult to survey, because their communities tend to be disassociated pockets. We have no idea what fraction of players don't have any online presence at all, for example, or what overlap there is between offline players and con attendees.

Nyoze

You could easily get a subsection of (Players at X location prefer Y) or (Players Online through B website prefer C), but since players at X could be online at B as well, not including players at V, D or online at G, J.... Not going to work.

Anyway, changing the topic.

BESW

7:35 AM

Any Internet- or convention-focused survey is going to necessarily marginalise people who have chosen to avoid those venues (people who not-un-justifiably consider geek communities to be cesspits of trolls and toxic masculinity, for example) or are unable to participate because of finance or life circumstances.

I myself have fallen into both those categories at points during my RPG participation.

Nyoze

Based on the prevalence of violent games available to today's generation (GTA, Etc), is it still applicable to refer to the protaganists of a RPG campaign as murderhobos compared to what is generally available in popular culture now?

Sandwich

The main characters of pretty much any game are murderhobos

BESW

a) "Murderhobo" describes a particular playstyle, and is not a term used to generically refer to all RPG protagonists.

Sandwich

Unless you're playing a puzzle game

BESW

b) "Other people are doing worse things" doesn't actually improve a position.

Sandwich

7:38 AM

If thats the case you're murdering viruses, or colored four-pieced blocks

Nyoze

I don't know... I always feel bad killing those poor candies in candy crush...

Miniman

@Nyoze In GTA you can't choose to be violent, you just are. Murderhoboing involves making deliberate choices to kill everything.

Sandwich

Eating candies is murder... MURDERRRRR

doppelgreener

@Nyoze if they're murderhoboing, then yes

murderhobo is a class of behaviour, the fact there's video games with violence doesn't affect it

BESW

It's sort of like claiming that I'm not out of shape because other people are more out of shape than I am.

Nyoze

7:39 AM

@Miniman I don't know what verion of GTA you're playing... I always went out of my way not to hurt civilians, while most people I know go out of their way to do it. :(

doppelgreener

if those video games turned to ultraviolence and there were no games under R18+, we'd still have murderhobos. if all violent video games ceased to exist, we'd still have murderhobos.

Nyoze

@BESW If you can run a 20 minute jog, while everyone around could run for 5, I wouldn't call you out of shape.

doppelgreener

he'd be very out of shape though, and so would everyone else.

you'd just be impressed because your frame of reference is a morbidly unfit human race.

Sandwich

The first Driver game in survival mode

The cops in that game are out to murder you to death

Nyoze

Yeah... I guess I always look at a comparison to the expected norm, not the current social norm.

BESW

7:41 AM

An absolute evaluation doesn't change its value because of the things next to it.

doppelgreener

But yeah, murderhobo-ness is not defined in terms of a comparison to the norm, so no, any change in the norm has no effect on it.

BESW

It describes a behaviour, not a relative deviation.

Nyoze

I stand corrected. Thank you again.

doppelgreener

@Nyoze what do you understand the murderhobo term to refer to?

Pixie

Well. I was going to kick myself off, but about the time I left, our dog in the garage directly beneath my room started barking and has not yet stopped. :P

Nyoze

7:44 AM

@doppelgreener Without doing a lot of research, it is the act of a character walking through killing things for the sake of EXP/Loot and no moral basis.

@Pixie The dog wants you to call in sick tomorrow.

Pixie

@Nyoze It certainly seems like it. :B

doppelgreener

@Nyoze Okay, that's part of it but not the full picture.

Sandwich

Howdy @Ixio, Have a question?

On an unrelated note, have any of you ever played Star Control II?

doppelgreener

Murderhoboness is basically this: characters progress by killing things, and getting loot and XP. They have extremely little incentive beyond roleplaying value to develop any deep ties with any individual or location in the world. In fact, such ties tend to be exploited by DMs who will target the individual or location with torture, attacks, or other injustice, so there is disincentive to form ties.

Nyoze

Oh wow... I've never had a DM quite that cruel...

doppelgreener

7:48 AM

That creates a behaviour where you can't afford to tie yourself down to anything (hobo) and you devote your attention to killing stuff. That's not the full part of the murder picture though. Because you're invested in nobody and nowhere and a drifter, each individual blacksmith's life is not worth much. So they are either selling you good loot, or they're causing you trouble, in which case you might as well kill them and take their stuff (free loot).

There's no particular incentive not to kill the blacksmith. You'll be leaving town, and you're big damn powerful characters.

So, murderhobos.

BESW

Video game protagonists often reflect this mode of characterisation too, especially in lazier stories or ones where the protagonist is deliberately a gamer surrogate.

doppelgreener

This behaviour just tends to emerge spontaneously as a consequence of the various incentives and disincentives in the system for the players, and what the DM is given to work with.

@Nyoze Doesn't take a cruel DM. It's just a really easy way to try to get the players to care about something and please for the love of god care about this world I'm creating for you all [breaks down in tears]

BESW

In both D&D and video games, it's partly an artefact of the game system placing such a strong focus on "kill people, acquire stuff" that it takes conscious effort to make other interactions worthwhile, but the mechanics don't really give any support to that effort.

Nyoze

@doppelgreener I guess I've just been lucky that the only time we've had players who don't care was the one time we ran an evil campaign just for the fun of it. We got bored after 3 or 4 sessions though.

Sandwich

Diablo II does reverse murderhoboing well

BESW

7:52 AM

(See: the way various "morality" systems which try to encourage non-violent interactions in video games get praised extravagantly even when their impact is trivial and the choice is illusory. eg Bioshock.)

Nyoze

Yeah... The thing I remember most about bioshock was that the environment actually helped me kill people.

BESW

(Similarly games like Shadow of the Colossus rely on the gamer's learned murderhobo behaviours, exploiting them to make the gamer uncomfortable with the habits he's been trained to.)

Sandwich

Go there! Kill that lizard! Stab that glowy thing! raaaaagh

BESW

Both those games start with a standard "the game will tell me what to do, it will involve killing folks and getting stuff, and I will obey these directions because it is what I do in this kind of game."

Pixie

My group has actually really surprised GMs among us by not just killing stuff.

BESW

7:55 AM

As the story progresses, they encourage the gamer to question his thoughtless obedience to the game's instructions, and use that obedience to make the character's moral plight resonate more viscerally with the gamer.

@Pixie Ursula Vernon's #dnd tweets are full of the GM's constant surprise at what they will and won't kill or befriend.

Sandwich

AKA getting shocked by black spooge lightning when you kill something

BESW

Not really.

It's the gathering suspicion/realisation that your character is not performing heroic acts of selflessness.

Nyoze

I have to play shadow one day... That story sounds awesome...

Sandwich

Well they aren't selfless acts

They're selfish acts to bring his dead girlfriend back to life

Pixie

@BESW In Exalted, we befriended giant spiders, came up with an intricate, multi-part scheme to free a bunch of slaves without slaughtering the slavers involved (which probably would have been the simpler route), and let a captured enemy ninja go. He was kinda cool, that one. We also usually try to get people to join us before anything else.

BESW

8:00 AM

In both games the gamer's experience is that of the character: going into the events expecting to be the default hero protagonist, but being manipulated (the character by another character, and the gamer by the game) to do things in the interests of someone else's hidden agenda--an agenda neither the character nor the gamer agreed to support.

(Unfortunately Bioshock dropped the ball by adding another 1/4 of the game after the wham moment, every second of which undermined its theme.)

"You've been manipulated to do whatever we tell you, but you're free now! Free to continue to follow the plot rails wherever the game wants to take you!"

SotC paced itself better.

Nyoze

Hah.

I should of finished Bioshock... One day lol, same as all my other long list of games to play.

BESW

Eh. I think Bioshock is a better game if you turn it off after the golf club cutscene is over.

Sandwich

Your loved one was captured by an evil dinosaur and you have to travel across the universe on my intergalactic space station powered by nondescript macguffins to get there!

BESW

I mean, even setting aside how the rest of its runtime undermines its own themes, the last quarter of the game feels lackluster and rushed and the final boss fight is just sadly pedestrian.

@Sandwich Doctor Who did it.

Sandwich

Super Mario Galaxy Did it better!

And with a sexier sidekick!

Nyoze

8:10 AM

So, back to my dex build. Is there any way for Dex to increase damage, short of Dervish Dance or Deadly Aim?

Pixie

@Nyoze Weapon Finesse allows you to use your dex mod for certain weapons. I'm not sure how much that helps you, just depends on how you're attacking and what with.

Sandwich

Nope @Nyoze

Dervish Dance is the only way outside homebrew

So you'd be limited to a Scimitar

Pixie

Whoops, I misread. Damage increase, yeah, no other way I'm aware of.

Nyoze

Okay. Next question. Do crossbows gain any benefit from increased STR at all?

Pixie

@Nyoze None that I'm aware of.

doppelgreener

8:22 AM

@BESW Oh! Then... I've actually finished Bioshock! Hooray!

BESW

@doppelgreener Hooray!

Ixio

@Sandwich Hi there! No question ^^ I just wanted to try the chat.

Sandwich

Ah I see

Nyoze

So let's see... If I stack Dex on a build with crossbow mastery, I'll be doing full attacks at 1d20-1 ignoring BAB and Dex, up to 30ft...

Sandwich

Well done then

doppelgreener

8:24 AM

@Ixio Hi!

Nyoze

Actually... That could work with an Int secondary... Then I can add my Int to damage, and stack a belt of dex and a headband of int...

All right... Fighter ho!

Pixie

Be aware that all in all, you're probably spending more on feats for crossbow efficacy. But if you're really set on dex, they're the better bow choice.

Nyoze

Yeah... Probably. Crossbow Mastery takes 2 extra feats to allow me to make full attacks.

doppelgreener

Noooo! LG has been so long out of chat I can't ping him!

BESW

@Ixio Welcome! You're free to lurk or chat as you please. This particular chat room is dedicated to tabletop role-playing games, like Dungeons & Dragons; you may find other chat rooms focused on other things you're interested in.

Nyoze

8:30 AM

I'll figure it out tomorrow. I'm out for tonight, see you guys :)

BESW

All active chat rooms across the Stack Exchange.

Pixie

8:43 AM

@Nyoze When you're around again, check out the Crossbowman archetype if going Fighter w/ crossbow.

BESW

9:24 AM

Tonight's trivial pet peeve: music reviewers who call Janelle Monáe "The Electric Lady."

Sandwich

9:38 AM

Eh? Why not Mighty Composite bows?

Lord Gareth's Tale of the Martini Wizard

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