ELL's Cabin - 2015-05-30

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3:59 AM

Hmm... this text by Huddleston is probably misleading.

> Note that nouns, unlike verbs, do not take Objects: we say She reviewed the play, but not *her review the play; instead we need of the play.

> lel.ed.ac.uk/grammar/overview.html

It's probably more suitable for linguistic students.

Why?

'Cause from a non-native speaker's point of view, her reviewing the play is a noun, too.

Surely, he really meant "noun" not "noun phrase" or anything that works like noun.

So, what he really meant was review as a noun don't take the play.

So the explanation only works either when a) the reader already knows what he's talking about, or b) the reader reads it very carefully.

^Just a rant, though.

3 hours later…

6:47 AM

1

A: "Do you have the reference number with you?" or "Do you have the reference number on you?"

In most of the cases, it's "with". However, to think further about the subtlety of the usage of prepositions, you may have to come up with the context ["That's on me" -is possible when I'm talking about paying a restaurant bill]. It's a style of talking. You can also remove the whole part 'with...

Someone might want to verify his answer.

(In Indian English, I mean.)

('Cause it's rather clear that it's not what he said in AmE)

have sense 3b. "to be holding something or carrying something with you"; have something on you: I don’t have any money on me. — Damkerng T. 6 mins ago

@DamkerngT. I can verify it in Persian English if you want.

Hullo!

hola

@M.A.Ramezani I'd like to hear that too!

Hello, guys!

Hullo to you too @Fred!

with you in InE is correct. But I normally avoid that part.

I have noticed most of people avoid that

6:53 AM

nods -- Thanks for the feedback!

I don't think I can provide an unbiased answer on that.

Because

1.I'm eating an ice cream.

LOL

2. My mother language has that with you art as correct.

Oh I meant part.

Or part art

Or art part.

Whichever you prefer.

Mine too. It's definitely with you in Thai English, too.

Oh, btw I'm supposed to be taking the physics exam now.

6:57 AM

but you not!

Then why am I chatting in the cabin?

Imagine the situation.

I went all the way to school to find that it's empty and the exam is tomorrow.

@M.A.Ramezani Maybe the exam is too easy. ;-)

Ahh

Imagine what if opposite is the situation...

The school is full and the exam was yesterday?

And I went all the way home?

hahaha. ya, if you want you can imagine that.

Think on exam day no student. :D

7:02 AM

Nothing is impossible.

...in Iran.

Well there goes my reputation in school for a week.

When they'll find out...

reputation in school? You mean there is reputation like S.E. in school?

Yes. And there are reviews and mods and close votes.

okay we have exactly opposite, IMAGINE :p

Meh my imagination went on an overload.

You need imagination power like @dam (robot)

7:08 AM

still imagining...

You need to first open program for imagination.

open(imagine...)

run 10000X

segmentation fault

windows has encountered an unexpected problem. Reboot needed

Oh guys! Watch:

-15

Q: Fake stack overflow points

I often visit users profile on stackoverflow, and their website when they have one. I came across a blog with a fake flair, stating the person has twice as much reputation and many more badges than in reality. Should I do something about it?

discussion reputation flair

thinking what to do

"What should I do about it?" - I'd suggest you laugh at the poor delusioned sucker who feels the need to fake his fake internet points... — l4mpi Jul 17 '14 at 11:49

:D

7:13 AM

Both the answers are awsome

Me too.

7:52 AM

OK now I've got some work to do, if anyone came and asked for me, tell them I'll be here in a few hours.

2 hours later…

9:22 AM

Hi!

9:56 AM

@user62015 Hola

How are you doing?

Great!. WHat about you?

I am great. Thanks.

Could you help me out with a sentence?

Sure. I will try my best :)

Thanks.

I wake up to the smell of chocolate in the air. What if I rewrite this sentence again something like this 'I wake up due to the smell of chocolate in the air.'

What difference do they have?

In sense of meaning.

10:01 AM

Only difference I can make out is style of speaking. Both the sentence have same meaning. In InE(indian english) I would prefer 2nd sentence.

Are you from India?

yes

BTW this reminds me of song "LET IT BE" by The Beatles.

I wake up to the sound of music,
Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be

Thanks. Sounds good.

your welcome

@user62015 Where are you from?

I am from New Delhi.

10:07 AM

Oh great. I am from Jamnagar, Gujarat

Sounds good.

Anonymous

I think the first sentence means the smell is there when you wake up, and the second sentence means the smell caused you to wake up

Anonymous

Do you have the reference number on you? is probably more common in AmE than Do you have the reference number with you?

Anonymous

But both are probably okay

Anonymous

her reviewing the play doesn't seem like a noun. It doesn't inflect like a noun, it can't be determined, it doesn't take adjectival modification, ...

10:14 AM

Thanks @snailboat

you mean in "I wake up to the sound of music". Paul(I hope he is singing that) means that when he wake there is music. @snail

Anonymous

It does function very much like a noun phrase, though. Even though internally it has the form of a clause

Anonymous

@Freddy That's how I understand it

Anonymous

It's possible I've just always misunderstood :-)

@snailboat It doesn't have a lot of properties of noun, but it sure can be a subject or an object of a sentence. That's why I think it could be misleading.

For non-native students, I mean.

Anonymous

10:19 AM

A noun can't be a subject or object of a sentence, a noun phrase can

thestandard.com.hk/…

@Freddy I think the same, too. He woke up, and there was the music.

@snailboat nods

Thank you for clearing that out @snail @dam

@Freddy I haven't read it carefully, though. It was just my first impression.

Anonymous

You can think of the whole thing as functioning similarly to a noun phrase, even if the range of functions isn't actually identical, but the key insight is that internally it has the form of a clause, not a noun phrase. Think of it as an internal-external distinction

Anonymous

10:26 AM

So we find the head takes verb-like complementation, adverbial modification, no determiner, can't inflect like a noun, etc.

Anonymous

So if you're just looking at the clause's internal structure, there's no reason to think about it as noun-like

Internal-external thinking is a good point.

Anonymous

Dictionaries all list the figurative meaning for wake up to NP

Gotta go out for a couple hours.

But I've just ordered this book:

amazon.co.jp/gp/product/0521297044

1000 yen!

Anonymous

I couldn't find a good dictionary entry, but I've always understood wake up to something as non-causal

10:34 AM

@snailboat I think it's like "wake up" + "to something".

Anonymous

His ideas have evolved somewhat since then and it's much less detailed than CGEL but it's still a good book :-)

Anonymous

CGEL is at its core Huddleston's project

Anonymous

Though many other linguists contributed

Anonymous

In IttGoE Huddleston still labeled the perfect as an aspect

Anonymous

I still think that's easier on the brain, even if sometimes all it does is locate events in time

11:59 AM

@DamkerngT. Re an answer on that stranding/weak form post, although it's related to that question it isn't really the same question that you're asking about!

@Araucaria I see. Anyway, I think I've got enough clues from your comment. :-)

12:25 PM

> declined - The link in this comment was broken and there was no way to investigate the allegation.

Ahh... as I expected, but the reason is unexpected.

1

Q: Quote from a book published in 1899- Incorrect grammar or change in language over time?

I have the following quote from The Theory of the Leisure Class, published in 1899: The close-cropped lawn is beautiful in the eyes of a people whose inherited bent it is to readily find pleasure in contemplating a well-preserved pasture or grazing land. Shouldn't the it not be present in ...

grammar word-usage history expletive-pronoun

Hmm... how can we parse that sentence by today's standards?

12:43 PM

1

Q: Help me to Identify type of verb in sentence

I was doing an exercice about identifying types of verb(transitive or intransitive) in a sentence. And i am confused in a sentence. An old baggar stood by the gate. The answer of above sentence is mentioned as INTRANSITIVE verb in answer book. But as per the verb explaination in book,tra...

verb transitive-verbs

12:54 PM

Hmm... In what languages would the verb to stand (or stood) in An old baggar stood by (or near) the gate be transitive?

1:12 PM

This is part of Grammar(finding something), I go blank.

2 hours later…

2:51 PM

@DamkerngT. In what languages.

@M.A.Ramezani Yes. I don't know, it may happen in some other languages, though I don't really think so.

Hello, @Delfino! Welcome to the room!

Delfi who?

I don't see anyone?

Helo @DamkerngT. I am a English Learning.

Oh hullo @Delfino!

Don't know why I didn't see you there.

@Delfino Wow, you are in so many chat rooms!

2:55 PM

Must be one of the finer aspects of SE chat.

Hello @M.A.Ramezani

@DamkerngT. That isn't too much.

He's being reserved on that part.

:D

two is my chat room for a new community, other is for I Learning.

@Delfino Hmm...Let's first get this straight. Do you mind being told your grammar mistakes in English?

Most of the people here don't - including me - but that doesn't mean I shouldn't ask.

3:00 PM

@M.A.Ramezani is difficult for me understand English, I read technical books

@M.A.Ramezani, please correct me, I here for learning.

Don't worry. Even native speakers don't know how to speak English perfectly.

And no learner has been semi-fluent from the start.

@Delfino OK then!

I'm not a very good teacher, but I'll ping @Dam for his examples.

In your upper sentence

> two is my chat room for a new community, other is for I Learning.

Since two is more than one we should use the plural form of be.

We should say

> Two are my chatrooms...

And the rest of the sentence

> ...other is for I Learning.

To make the sentence more beautiful, I'd say

> The other ones are for my learning.

I understand,

About use of "my" and "I", I see a question about this. But for write fast I don´t remember.

That's highly normal for everything you learn.

At first, putting what you learned into application is impossible.

It's true when you study chemistry, English, Geography etc etc.

3

Q: I or Me, which is correct?

Got to read the following sentence in an article. But my wife insisted I go. Got to keep the wife happy :) so I went. here, he says insisted "I" go. Is it correct? or insisted me to go will be the suitable one?

grammar pronouns

The solution is writing/typing/speaking a lot.

3:11 PM

good have this chat, because for me lacked a space like this.

I don´t participate on StackOverflow communities more, because this, I use the Google Translator, but not is good all time.

Might I ask you what your native language is?

I´m Brazilian, I talk Portuguese.

@Delfino In this one the sentence the guy asks about is a separate clause.

Clauses are somehow sentence like.

So in a sentence you can say

> I go.

Not

> *me go.

Or

> *my go.

But in your sentence, we're talking about a noun phrase.

@M.A.Ramezani, I don´t understand.

Unfortunately, I don't know much Portuguese to know what you guys call them.

@Delfino In the sentence I don't understand., I is a noun, right?

3:20 PM

yes

So, nouns play some roles in the sentence. I is also the subject of the sentence, right?

? :)

yes

I don´t understand "nouns play some roles in the sentence"

@M.A.Ramezani

@M.A.Ramezani I need good, but I will came back, turn 22:00 from Brazil Time.

You chat from?

Iran.

@Delfino So are you leaving?

nouns = substantivo
Pronouns = Pronomes
subject from sentence = objeto da sentença.

Ahh

Note that substantive is something different in English, though it's classified as noun.

3:27 PM

I need to go to an appointment, but back in 10 hours.

Bye then...But then in 10 hours time I'll be having to go to the gym, I can talk to you in some 13 hours then.

is a good idea open a question about nouns vs substantives on ell.stackexchange.com.

Don't think so.

ok, I stay here. 01:00 in Brazil.

@Delfino I think since there are lots of websites about what substantives are, you're not gonna get positive reviews of your question.

3:33 PM

Ok, I understand.
But this is a important topic for me, and is a good place for me to save.

I need go, thanks>
I see you

Have a good day/night/appointment!

2 hours later…

5:48 PM

hi everyone

Anonymous

@M.A.Ramezani Delfino was right. Substantive isn't really something different in English.

Anonymous

It's just an older name for nouns.

Anonymous

@agent5566 Hello!

i'm newbie here and in english at all

what's the hard to me in englsih it is articles

6:13 PM

@snailboat I was never good at dealing with old names.

Hullo @snail and @agent.

@agent5566 English in articles can be very complicated.

Don't worry much about it, for now.

It's like saying "I don't understand the code Donald Knuth writes."

since i'm newbie, i tried to make some heuristic for them (i mean aricles), i'm a programmer, and so i saw some analogy: "a" - is for talking about class and "the" - is for objects :) but it turned out that it's not so simple

as for Knuth, his code makes my eyes bleeding ;) with all respect to him

@M.A.Ramezani

Hehe.

@agent5566 A very important thing to keep in mind is that English is flexible.

It is not just a set of rules.

set of rules and tons of special cases, am i right?

@M.A.Ramezani

It's true that there are a lot of certain things you can't change for a sentence to be correct.

@agent5566 Nah...I also study Arabic and they teach us with telling us some rules and their exceptions.

That's not preferable.

Folks like you and me speak English, and so folks like you and me make English.

If a majority accepts a new concept used in an English sentence, that sentence would turn into something grammatical.

Of course, with some time.

6:30 PM

@M.A.Ramezani yeah, english is alive, it evolves, like any other alive human lang, i think.

Yes, exactly. English is human.

One of the biggest problems of learners in understanding English - Specially every-day English - is thinking

thinking on english?

> I should memorize the way these guys wrote this sentence with this grammar.

i see

Hmm...How are you planning to make progress on English?

6:37 PM

First of all, having alive practe (chat in general). Also i have another issue with lang, i can't tokenize words when listening english speech. Don't know what to do with this

Tokenize. Damn! I'm not a programmer!

I mean distinct

:)

distinguish may be

Anyways, practicing is very good.

@agent5566 Yeah...Distinguish might be the word.

As I was saying, practicing is very good, but it should both be writing/typing and speaking.

I dunno which one chatting is categorized in, but for me it's categorized as writing.

Now i stuck in listening, I get all sentences like solid sound. Yeah, chatting is writing but with some addition, it is interactive action, you practicing to thinking and building grammar

@agent5566 Listening is whole lot different story.

Whaddya listen to?

6:46 PM

@M.A.Ramezani Films in general. "Friends" serial. Could you recommend something what can i try else to do?

I haven't seen this Friends you say, but

I know one thing. Films and serials are very frightening practices of listening.

I know one guy who got fluent english (i think so) by talking in online games audio chat :)

Heh. Heard that kinda rumor too.

@M.A.Ramezani Oh, you should try it! Really great serial, classic

I don't have a clear mind on recommending what to listen, since I don't know which level is appropriate for you and I dunno any really reliable sources of English listening.

But yeah, as I said, watching films can bring more harm than good.

They might scare you off of English listening.

7:07 PM

@M.A.Ramezani You have said you are not a programmer, but why were you talking about Knuth? :)

Since I see many people here are programmers.

I'm a semi-chemist.

Chemistry was my favorite subj in school, i liked to play with redox, i tried to make classic black powder, like thousands boys in my age. Thanks gods that my eyes stayed on place

Anonymous

7:22 PM

@M.A.Ramezani I learned it from looking at the OED originally. See, the OED refers to nouns as nouns. But if you look at the way old first edition, you'll notice that everywhere the new one says "noun", the old one says "substantive"! (Well, they abbreviate them, but yeah.)

Anonymous

But if you read about grammar in English you'll eventually run into "substantive"

Anonymous

In some contexts they may be distinguished one way or another

Anonymous

But ideally I think we'd just leave behind "substantive" when discussing English

Anonymous

@agent5566 It'll get easier to recognize individual words the more you practice :-)

Cool.

Chat's very weird.

7:31 PM

@snailboat yeah, no pain no gain :)

@Snail I wonder both of these exist: "No pain no gain!" And "Nothing ventured nothing gained."

Wouldn't one do the job?

i have heard today, that learn lang without alive practice same as learn to drive without one, you will never drive

@agent5566 That's kinda true.

Anonymous

They mean different things

Kinda.

Anonymous

7:37 PM

The ventured one is about risking something

Oh you mean the proverbs.

Anonymous

You could say no pain, no gain about lifting weights to build muscle

Hmm, MAYBE you're right.

@snailboat ain is some kind of venture of, as for me ;)

*pain

Dunno, I confuse them because in Persian they're supposed to mean the same and in Turkish...Well...

@agent5566 Are you on mobile or you don't wanna edit what you wrote?

Anonymous

7:40 PM

Well, you can try to relate the two phrases and they are similar, but it'd probably be better to contrast them so you don't mix them up

Anonymous

Since you can't use them interchangeably

@M.A.Ramezani oh, i don't know about editing. I got it

Anonymous

I'm on mobile so I can't edit right now

@agent5566 Usually one would go and say hey! You can edit things here! to find out that the guy's using mobile.

Anonymous

You could always ask an ELL question about the difference :-)

7:42 PM

Meh.

Anonymous

I often feel that meh is the case

Well I used the meh Gru's mom used to say in Despicable me 1.

So that's a no.

Anonymous

I don't know what that is, but I'm pretty familiar with meh :-)

meh is in my top 10 everyday words, in my lang ;)

Anonymous

It's a good word

7:47 PM

Eh? Meh's a meh word for me.

it is word for lazy people

Anonymous

Sometimes laziness is good

Meh.

laziness simplify the language

Anonymous

Language develops new complexities when it loses old ones

Anonymous

7:50 PM

English has been losing its inflectional grammar for a millennium, but it's been developing new syntactic grammar

@snailboat are you a linguist?

Anonymous

I'm a snailboat

@agent5566 No. She's English in its purest form.

@snailboat what does your nickname mean? My vocabulary hasn't help. Is it some sort of snails ?

Anonymous

I think snails are cute and I think sailboat is a cute word so I combined them :-)

Anonymous

7:56 PM

It doesn't mean anything in particular

Anonymous

I have pet snails, though :-)

@snailboat Oh, i have forgotten about english flexibility ;)

@agent5566 That's rule number one. BTW, be here and I'll ping you when shooting star comes. He's Russian too.

Russian can teach English to a Russian like no other.

Rule number 2. ^

Anonymous

I think you can make up words in any language if you try hard enough :-)

Anonymous

It's easiest with open classes like say, nouns

8:00 PM

@snailboat Nah, not all languages are as flexible as English.

Anonymous

In English since we have relatively little inflectional morphology, it's easy for words to jump classes

Anonymous

That's hard in some languages

Yep.

Anonymous

But you can make up words in literally any language

In Persian, you have to find two nouns relating closely to that object and then coin a word for it.

Anonymous

8:02 PM

The set of open classes varies with language

Coining is never as fun as it is in English.

What was the name again...Ah! Compound nouns.

@snailboat yeah, but you should know when to stop, shizophazy is out there ;)

In Persian you only can make compounds nouns.

Hmm...Shizophazy...Yummy!

What is it?

Anonymous

aclweb.org/anthology/W10-0302

Oh this jumped to my mind: @Snail, how did you pronounce my username when it was MARamezani?

Anonymous

8:05 PM

The same way I do now, I think

em ei ramezani?

Anonymous

Yes

Good. At least someone's on my side.

@M.A.Ramezani interesting!

@snailboat Heh. Online goes Persian and becomes a new word...Online! Just with Persian letters.

I don't call that neologism.

Anonymous

8:09 PM

That's fair

Anonymous

Just call it a loanword

Yep.

About verbs, if you add "-idan" to "the present root of the verb" then you get an infinitive.

They've used neologism - "Chatidan"

Pfft.

in russian filthy words was loaned from Mongol-Tatars

@agent5566 Nice place to loan words!

we had no choice :)

8:14 PM

Why not...You could've loaned some words from Iranians!

some old joke reddit.com/r/russian/comments/2nmulv/…

Persian people's swear words are very sissy, but Turkish swear words...Oh my god.

Arabic swear words are also very...colorful and meaningful themselves.

I wonder about the Japanese swear words.

@snail ping!

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May '1530

ELL's Cabin

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